quote: But that era faded -- the time when James Taylor and Carole King and Joni Mitchell and Dan Fogelberg and Janis Ian and a few others (never very many) could write and sing songs that were truthful and beautiful and clever and moving, and find a huge popular audience.
Such music was overwhelmed by disco and punk and then buried under rap, hip-hop, and alternative, all of them increasingly anti-musical and anti-lyrical.
(And don't bother writing to me your bitter complaint that rap is too musical or that alternative "reinvented" music. All these movements explicitly abandoned sentiment, melody, and form, and the fact that a few good musicians have managed to rise out of the swamp to create good songs says more about persistence of talent than about some hidden qualities that these genres possessed.)
First off, I find it amusing that OSC uses the fact that, in his opinion, there aren't very many good hip-hop songs to prove that there's a fundimental flaw in the genre, since a musician must be extraordinarily gifted or lucky to "rise out of the swamp." Yet, in the paragraph describing his beloved singer-songwriter genre, he admits that there are just as few people who are able to make good music out of a supposedly superior style. The logic escapes me.
quote: rap...abandoned...melody and form
RESPONSE #1: So What? A great many of the musical innovations of the 20th century have been all about the abandonment of what have been traditionally considered melody and form. Minimalist music, ambient music, free jazz... all these are forms that were initially laughed at for those exact reasons, but have ended up not only surviving, but radically reshaping the landscape and language of music. Without people like Claude Debussy, Igor Stravinsky, Erik Satie, LaMonte Young, Steve Reich, Philip Glass, Brian Eno, Ornette Coleman and John Coltrane, there's no way of knowing what any of the music we listen to would sound like.
Yes, there's still room for the kind of music that OSC prefers: a simple melody with not-too-intrusive and strictly melodic instrumental accompaniment. But it's very difficult to find an album produced in the last few decades that isn't in some way influenced by people who experimented with abandoning traditional melody and form. If nothing else, many modern record production techniques leave an avant-garde stamp on the most traditional-sounding albums.
RESPONSE #2: It ain't necessarily so New musical forms are often accused of throwing away rules and becoming formless. But it's not often true. Even some of the earliest minimalist experiments were influenced by centuries of music from other parts of the world, and they were in many cases bound by incredibly rigorous rules. They only sounded formless because they were bound by rules that the western-trained ear couldn't immediately recognize. For just one example of this, go here and listen to the fascinating piece about "Drumming" by Steve Reich.
Rap music itself began, superficially, as people talking (or shouting) rhythmically. And in the minds of many people, that's still the essence of hip-hop, even after decades of musical evolution. In truth, there are dozens of hip-hop subgenres, many of them with deep theory and rich legacies. Rappers can perform with funk, punk or rock bands, gospel choruses, symphony orchestras, techno artists, or DJs drawing influences from widely eclectic sources to make an unrecognizable new product.
People who are used to judging music mainly by the vocal quality of a singer may have a hard time understanding hip-hop. In a lot of great rap, the actual rapping (the hip-hop analogue of the singing) is a very small part of what is going on. Often the most talented and successful member of a rap group is its producer. Take as an example, RZA or Dr. Dre, musical geniuses who wouldn't have even had a place in traditional groups. Kanye West, one of the most successful rappers currently on the scene, is acclaimed mainly for his composing and production skills. He's a good rapper and singer, but without his talents as a producer, never would even have got his foot in the door.
In other cases, DJs are the most talented members of hip-hop groups. In fact, some of the greatest hip-hop albums I have contain little to no actual rapping. People like DJ Shadow, DJ Spooky, DJ Krush and several others are making solo albums. Endtroducing... and Songs of a Dead Dreamer are two of the most critically acclaimed hip-hop albums of the '90s, and there isn't a single rapped line on either of them. They're made entirely by DJs, purely sample-driven hip-hop, and they're incredible. Tricky is a rapper, yet on his (critically adored) first solo album, most of the vocal duties were turned over to a singer he hired for the gig, while he focused on writing and producing. And the OutKast album The Love Below, which made many critics' lists of top albums of 2003, contained far more traditional melodies, jazz, gospel and other influences than actual rapping. If there's any doubt that there's more to rap music than rapping, listening to those albums should clear them up.
The music of rap can sometimes seem to be devoid of form, but if you listen closely it's absolutely swimming in it. Good hip-hop takes all the musical form found in just about any other style of music and makes it into something unique. And they're not just pirating superior styles; just like Gershwin, in composing Rhapsody in Blue, used jazz music to make something that was utterly classical, rap musicians use a wide variety of other styles to make their music, yet still stay true to their vision. Whether you're listening to G-Funk, with its funk and soul influences, trip-hop, with its downtempo techno and reggae, The Beastie Boys, with their punk rock and hard rock influences, Madvillain, with jazz and minimalist classical music (among other things) in the mix, Fugees, with their Carribean rhythms, the funk and gospel of Outkast or Kanye West, the house techno of The Streets, or even the eastern melodies and sound effects used in Wu-Tang Clan tracks, you'll find all manner of form if you're listening. This isn't even the beginning of a complete list... find a talented DJ, and you'll hear literally any style you can think of, and a great many you've never heard of, interpreted in ways that you'd never have imagined. If you've listened to very much rap at all, you can't even write it off as a single style, let alone a style without form or substance.
I was going to make another argument against the idea that hip-hop is anti-lyrical, but this has gone on long enough. I don't want to make it sound like I listen to nothing but rap, or that I don't agree that, like any other form of music, rap has produced a staggering catalogue of inane tripe. I just wanted to make it known that at least someone isn't ready to dismiss an entire culture that has spanned at least three decades and a significant portion of the earth's population as something not even worth considering.
I hope I'm not alone.
[ September 30, 2005, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Speed ]
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
I love OSC's writting, and have much respect for him, but he do have the habit of stating his oppinions as if they were the unquestionable truth.
That's only my humble oppinion, by the way.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
You know what, I had meant to put this on the other side of the forum. I just noticed that it was here. Ooops. So over it goes.
Thanks for the response, Eduardo. Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
I saw a great bumper sticker a while ago: "You're not getting old, the music just sucks."
There are individual pieces out there I like, but heaven help me, I mostly agree with Card about this. So much of the rap I hear blaring from peoples' cars is unimaginative lyrically, repetitive harmonically, and boring rhythmically. Am I getting old?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
No, a lot of it is garbage. This is market saturation, pure and simple. Rap labels and record deals are a dime a dozen, because people will buy it whether it's good or bad. It's part of your rep for certain groups of people to be up on all things rap. So they march like cattle to the record store and buy every new rap release. If you cut through the chaff, though, there are still some gifted rappers out there.
Kanye West is a great producer, and a decent lyricist. Jay-Z is, in my opinion, still the king of the hill (although he's gotten a little complacent as of late). Eminem is the most skilled lyricist in the game right now if you ask me. I also love his delivery. His last album was a step down from his previous work though. Just to name a few.
Posted by chuck7 (Member # 8645) on :
I don’t see a single place in his entire essay that says “all comments here are undeniable natural law and fact”. I personally take it as a given that a persons comments are purely opinion unless they say “this is a fact, here is the proof”. The unfortunate truth of our times is that we have grown so lazy and over fead by the media around us that we just assume anything beyond a personal conversation (and some times even that) is intended to be the gospel fact. If we don’t agree with it, we have to yell and scream about the great injustice that is being done to us.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
quote:like any other form of music, rap has produced a staggering catalogue of inane tripe.
Just wanted to emphasize this part of my post. Also, Sterling, consider what someone might think of the music you like if all they heard is what came into their car when they were sitting next to you at a stoplight.
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
chuck7: "If we don’t agree with it, we have to yell and scream about the great injustice that is being done to us."
I'm not, really. But... look:
quote: (And don't bother writing to me your bitter complaint that rap is too musical or that alternative "reinvented" music. All these movements explicitly abandoned sentiment, melody, and form, and the fact that a few good musicians have managed to rise out of the swamp to create good songs says more about persistence of talent than about some hidden qualities that these genres possessed.)
It's not written as if it was the "natural law" because... ?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I remember the column where OSC rediscovered country music. But I still say there is some good and some bad in every genre. I did happen upon a hip-hop station on my commute yesterday, and the first song I heard had beautiful multi-part harmonies and a compelling but not obtrusive rhythm. What was it? Oh, it was a cover of "how can I live without you" but it was barely recognizable.
The next song had the vocals that were monotone and engineered so they sounded like they were calling in to an AM radio station. yuck.
Posted by jamesbond007 (Member # 8513) on :
Speed: I agree, OSC has a limited view of rap because he probably hasn't spent alot of time investigating it.
Another thing is that I came to know alot of older R&B songs I would have never heard had I not heard the samples in the background of rap song. I think that's positive and I think rap can be positive, but what stands out is the tarnishing from the Gangsta' era. And it seems to me people forget that all rap that isn't written by snoop dogg.
Posted by jamesbond007 (Member # 8513) on :
Oops! I just noticed this topic was about Hip-hop, but I remember OSC said he rap didn't appeal to him and it sounded like "shouted poetry".
Well, then I guess I like my poetry shouted.
Bond, James Bond
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Rap did abandon melody (although not form). Too much melody with that much beat wouldn't work, I think.
I like rap, but for me, it's like a commodity: just turn it to the rap station. I couldn't care less which musician they're playing.
Posted by Mic Tyson (Member # 11837) on :
I love OSC and agree with him on many things, but hip hop is my favorite type of music and i think is a much more complex way of writing literature. I am not talking about the commercial type of hip hop on the radios either, but the type that you have to sit and listen to and rewind song 2 or 3 times to even understand the point the MC is actually trying to make. I remember in high school I had to read this pathetic poem called the Red Wheel barrel, and it was revered as some type of ingenious poem..... Here are a couple of hip hop examples of to make my point about. Canibus - Poet Laureate IICanibus - Poet Laureate II Lyrics Nas - FetusNas - Fetus Lyrics Nas - PoisonNas - Poison Lyrics If you need more examples I can go for days. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It's often called "The Red Wheelbarrow," by William Carlos Williams, but it was actually numbered, not named. (If you had to name it, a better name would be "so much depends.")
If WCW were to rewrite "Poet Laureate," it would look something like this:
my hungry mouth moves and one out of five words comes out as me
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
Two of them read and I'm not convinced. They're nothing but rough draft poetry. No matter that they quote the science. They're all about the vanity And I really don't like the misogyny.
Posted by Mic Tyson (Member # 11837) on :
I didn't say they were upbeat and incredibly happy and I also said you can't listen to the song once you would have to listen to it many times to pick up on the gems he throws into the song. Also he saying to the women don't degrade yourself...What is so misogynic? And the other one is about telling the story before he was born.... I don't know what your talking about. Here is another for you none believers. Canibus - No ReturnCanibus - No Return Lyrics There is a underlying theme behind this song see if you can pick it out, i would be impressed if you can.
Posted by sox (Member # 10371) on :
i see hip-hop as a true post modern music form. and as mentioned, just like every other genre, there is tons of horrible songs to choose from. plenty of good ones aswell. im attaching one song to this post. when it came out 11 years ago i found it quite moving. if i heard it coming out of someones car, i would assume it was a song that glorified violence..
Ever watch a hard rock when he got a seed? Turn a whole hundred and eighty degrees The nigga that you never saw smile before It's like the warrior at peace with the child at your door It's mad wild how he holds the mold It's so fragile knowin that this little soul is agile Meanwhile deep in his thoughts Is how do I protect it from the streets and the courts There's stress and strain tryin to maintain When you're poor workin odd jobs for small change You either rap, rob, girls slob knobs And niggas sell crack, weed or coke for the mob [Gatekeeper] The Al Corleone idol was his mentor, gangster That came up short You're needin dentures Built his rep for killin Aztecs in distortion Front page news for the projects Carried the weight for his mom's operation 25 years workin for the train station Cause he was black the community reacts Summer tricks, picnic for kids, he gave it back He ain't accept it, grinned and helped the church, clear his debit Wind up helpin young brothers makin records When the people lookin at cha from the outside Open your mouth wide and say Aiiight! Hidden emotions, you and I control it Don't get pissed cause this is how we show it Hidden emotions, you and I control it Don't get pissed cause this is how we show it [Gatekeeper] People wonder why when my man died I didn't even cry Melted on the inside Numb, I'm becomin like a runner Sweatin like a plumber My heart started poundin like thunder Yo am I ready for revenge that depends On how my future look in the bends Is my life worth losin My seed, my wife Gettin my life snatched for makin wrong right
i should mention that the song samples from Otis Redding (and the bar kays i believe). a song titled "try a little tenderness," which can be heard here:
and i should also mention that the artist who raps the first and fourth verses, poetic/grym reaper, died of colon cancer in 2001.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Okay, look, here's the thing. Song lyrics can be poetry -- and, yes, some rap lyrics aren't completely asinine. But most poets, by and large, attempt to do something a little more sophisticated than rhyming "plumber" with "thunder."
I don't think Jim Morrison was much of a poet, either, for what it's worth.
Posted by Mercury (Member # 11822) on :
One's person's garbage is another person's genius. That's the lesson of all of this. Speed mentioned Kanye West, Dr. Dre, and the Beastie Boys as great artists. I wouldn't listen to them if they were paying me (well, I actually would of course, but you get the point.) I certainly wouldn't classify them as brilliant. The Beastie Boys especially, sound like cats being stepped on. But I'm sure there are many artists I like that Speed would hate.
There are people who claim a particular brand of music is not truly "musical" everytime something new arises. In the 80s, when synthesized music was becoming popular, there were plenty of people who said it wasn't "real music" because they weren't using real instruments. No doubt many still believe that today. The same goes for every other brand of music, even those OSC holds dear.
Music, perhaps more than any other art form, is highly personal. If you don't like a book or a movie, you can still sometimes judge on its merits sometimes. But if you don't like a particular piece of music, it's harder to see value you in it. Your reaction to music is almost always emotional, not intellectual.
So while I share OSC's dislike of hip-hop, I also don't care for Janis Ian, James Taylor, or any of the others he mentioned. Their songs just don't have the meaning for me, that they do for OSC, as I'm sure the songs that resonate in my soul wouldn't in his. I would rather listen to hip-hop in fact, than listen to the horror of Carly Simon, though I'd much prefer to listen to some Robert Palmer, Eagles or Johnny Cash. That doesn't mean any of it, even the hip-hop isn't "musical." It just means everyone has their own taste.
Posted by Achilles (Member # 7741) on :
Is OSC even a musician? How is he qualified to state that something is or isn't music. It's merely his opinion, and it doesn't sound like he's got all that sophisticated a musical pallet at that.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
He fancies himself one, and clings to his ignorance as if it were a mark of authenticity.
I've disagreed with him before about music- it's a little hard to describe his attitude. He's basically a sentimentalist with a revisionist sense of music history- he essentially denies everything he either doesn't like, or which does not appeal to his taste. Actually, that's perfectly fine- we should argue about the validity of certain genres of music in general, but we should do so in a way that is educating and descriptive rather than proscriptive. My attitudes have become less rigid over time, partly from seeing what they looked like reflected in people like him, and in people in academic music who were just like the people he described in his tirades. (I should not though, that these people remained in the decided minority, and his generalizations were still wrong)
Posted by Clumpy (Member # 8122) on :
"When I was a kid, furniture had character. Our chairs and couches were covered in thick shag and were comfortable to lie on. Couches these days are made out of so-called 'synthetic' leather or, worse, just a thin layer of upholstery. And don't try to tell me that modern couches are just as comfortable, or are cheaper. They could make couches the way they used to, but they won't, because they don't care and we refuse to demand any better."
It's easy to write something like that. So what? It's even easier to discount.
Card is simply one of those members of the older generation who feel that music was better before, when it basically consisted of songs that rode on the charisma of a single singer and followed a few simple tuneful arrangements. Baby boomers aren't all like that, but Card is one of them. I find an overwhelming proportion of that music shallow and unchallenging. So what?
I've been guilty of complaining about Card in the past, but I'm going to give it up. How many times can it possibly get our ire up when we see Card follow that format? ("I remember a time when. . . and don't try to tell me that [x] because [circular logic].")
I think that much music of the modern era has pushed music forward by rediscovering creative use of dissonance, unprecedented song patterns and the increased opportunities of the electronic era. Granted, most music is unadventurous and has no heart, merely riding on the success of some "similar" group by copying superficial elements of their sound, but that's more of a symptom of the monolithic recording industry and the success of merely copying what's come before than anything else.
I've found plenty of music that's adventurous, heartfelt, moving and melodic, even in the genres of hip-hop and alternative (The Pixies are a good litmus test for the type of music listener you are). Just because Card states his opinions (and states them forcefully) doesn't reduce the quality of great music he doesn't happen to like, whatever the genre.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:a musical pallet
I love the idea. It could play different tones based on how much weight you put on it, or how high it was stacked, or even how rapidly it was being moved. It could revolutionize the shipping industry.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
These conversations always end up with you or me being a dick.
This time it's you.
Posted by zvazda (Member # 11836) on :
IMHO if all you have going for you is lyrics... then you could at least make them really rhyme...
Just from the first 10 lines there are 3 or 4 non-rhymes. Seed – Degrees Wild – Mold (if this is supposed to be an internal rhyme like the Fragile-Agile in the following line) Maintain – Change Knobs- Mob
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
In fact, those words are all rhyming words, they are just not "hard" rhymes. Any two words that share a common sound are rhymes, but hard rhymes share two sounds or more- usually the ending sounds, such as "stick," and "slick," or "mop," and "slop." However, two words that share one sound (in the same location) can be said to rhyme, especially if the shared sound is an open voiced vowel, which is true in the case of all the words you mentioned except wild-mold. In that case, the two words have the same unvoiced consonant ending. Traditionally, we do not view consonant endings as sufficient for rhyming, but technically they do rhyme.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
I don't listen to music for the lyrics. I listen to music for the music.
Posted by zvazda (Member # 11836) on :
Orincoro - Is this the "rules" for rhyming in poetry?
Because it sure isn't the rules we follow in Musical Theatre, at least traditionally we don't.
Non-rhymes drive my ear (and many other people in the Musical Theatre world I know) up the wall!
I figured the rules and norms were universal.
-Z
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: I don't listen to music for the lyrics. I listen to music for the music.
There are many who would argue that lyrics are a subcategory within "music." You can have music without lyrics, of course, but a song that has lyrics cannot be split into separate "musical" and "lyrical" components because one is part of the other.
In other words, your statement is like saying, "I don't listen to Beethoven for the violins. I listen to Beethoven for the music."
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
quote:Originally posted by zvazda: Orincoro - Is this the "rules" for rhyming in poetry?
Because it sure isn't the rules we follow in Musical Theatre, at least traditionally we don't.
Non-rhymes drive my ear (and many other people in the Musical Theatre world I know) up the wall!
I figured the rules and norms were universal.
-Z
I think the whole point being expressed in this thread is that rules and norms are not universal. There are always artists pushing the boundaries of what is traditionally considered normal, and who are inevitably derided in their time as creating "noise" or "schlock" or "non-art."
This is hardly confined to our own time, nor to post-modernists. The musical "rules" in the Middle Ages stated that a piece must resolve to one of the "perfect" chords, and composers who ended their pieces with major or minor thirds were viewed with distaste, in much the same way that OSC seems to view hip-hop artists. Yet the vast majority of music made today ends with a major or minor triad - in fact, it's become popular among the indie rock set to avoid ending songs with those chords because it sounds too cliche!
Edited to add: Sorry about the double-post. Also, I should emphasize that this doesn't mean that all art that pushes boundaries is "good" - the usual caveat of "90% of all art is crap" applies. However, it's also important to note that what constitutes "crap" and what is "innovative genius" can often only be distinguished in retrospect. There were probably thousands of noisy bands that utilized feedback and dissonant guitar in the 80s, but only one that remains as beloved and influential as the Pixies.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by zvazda: Orincoro - Is this the "rules" for rhyming in poetry?
Because it sure isn't the rules we follow in Musical Theatre, at least traditionally we don't.
Non-rhymes drive my ear (and many other people in the Musical Theatre world I know) up the wall!
I figured the rules and norms were universal.
-Z
Orincoro is right. All the examples you provided are rhymes, they're just not what O calls "hard" rhymes, or what I learned as "perfect" rhymes. "Seed-Degrees" would be a Family Rhyme. "Maintain-Change" would be an Additive Rhyme. "Knobs-Mob" would be a Subtractive Rhyme.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by zvazda: Orincoro - Is this the "rules" for rhyming in poetry?
Because it sure isn't the rules we follow in Musical Theatre, at least traditionally we don't.
Non-rhymes drive my ear (and many other people in the Musical Theatre world I know) up the wall!
I figured the rules and norms were universal.
-Z
No, that is a definition of the word "rhyme." There are no rules for the construction of verse, and for that matter there are no rules for the construction of prose- just common and traditional practices.
What you get in musical theater (are you British- "theatre"?) is probably going to be mostly hard rhyme, but it becomes useful to take a broader meaning of the term when dealing with many kinds of poetry; particularly non-English language poetry, or English poetry that is influenced by other languages. English language verse is peculiar in that the majority of the words which are most often used for rhyming are West German derivatives, which make up a lot of English's one syllable words, "sad," "mad," "bad," "pad," "lad," "had," "dad," "glad," or "stick," "sick," "lick," "pick," "nick," "wick," "quick," "hick." Other languages have less easily paired single syllable words.
Hard rhyme in French and Spanish poetry is far less common, partly because the sentence structures are harder to manipulate. There is a commonly held belief that English language music dominates the world today not just because of the cultural hegemony of Britain and America, but because of its portability in rhyming and verse structure.
Edit: I should add that modernists like T.S. Eliot tried to reflect movements from other languages into English verse in works like LSJAP, and "The Waste Land." Particularly, he and Ezra Pound were fascinated by French Symbolism, which was influenced by American prose writers like Edgar Allen Poe. In "The Waste Land," (and it's always worth having another look at this poem), you can find correlations between lines that are not based on rhymes, but rather on a hierarchy of symbols. The first stanza, for example, is an echo and a loose adaption of the Prologue to the Canterbury Tales, which introduces the organizational concept of the Tales into the poem, and foreshadows a shifting narrative viewpoint. At the same time, the adaption works against the imagery of the original, countering the words of the original text, such as the "smothering every vine in sweet liquor" of rain (my translation), with "stirring dull roots in spring rain."
These were organizational schemes novel in 1922, especially in English, and OSC and people like him derided and still do deride Eliot as an elitist and a non-artist. It comes, in my opinion, from a fallacious conservative obsession with, I'm not sure what... maybe the idea of ethnic or national identity. That may sound strange on the face of it, but what poetic conservatives like OSC constantly reinforce is the need to stay close to the conventions of language that have been used in the past. Eliot intentionally invoked aspects of expression from outside the English tradition, and in many ways I think conservatives see it as a betrayal of his national identity. Just my opinion.
[ November 19, 2008, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Orincoro ]
Posted by JLM (Member # 7800) on :
I always crack-up when NPR does reviews of hip-hop albums. You don't get more "smart & smarmy" than NPR, so when the reviewer recommends Q-tip, it is probably a good stuff. (And based on the samples played during the review, q-tip is mostly up to form. Let's face it, Card is a Utah white boy, through and through.
Posted by Achilles (Member # 7741) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:a musical pallet
I love the idea. It could play different tones based on how much weight you put on it, or how high it was stacked, or even how rapidly it was being moved. It could revolutionize the shipping industry.
I love my own typos as well. Posted by zvazda (Member # 11836) on :
Thanks for the responses. I certainly understand a little better, but it is still hard for me to see the non-hard rhymes as anything less than laziness.
Especially if the main point is lyrics, I would expect some real virtuosity out of my lyrics (a la Mr. Sondheim "I've stood on breadlines with the best, watched while the headlines did the rest." Or Mr. Porter "Flying to high with some guy in the sky is my idea of nothing to do."
Perhaps it's my own shortcoming.
I'm not british, I just come from a school of thought where theatre refers to the live artform but theater refers to either a building or a cinema. It's not really clear where the line is. But for most Musical Theatre afficionados "theatre" is the spelling you see most often.
Posted by Clumpy (Member # 8122) on :
I seriously just want to see OSC write that self-righteous article about the deteriorating quality of modern couches.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Don't worry zvazda, I only realized last year that I was spelling "theatre" differently than most people around me. But in my case, I use it in regards to all theatre, whether its live or in cinema.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Mr. Card has spent a good deal of time in choirs and according to him he was a child soprano. Based on the many posts he has made about music and music related electronics, it sounds like he spends a very significant chunk of his day listening to music.
While I disagree with the statement, "...Card is a Utah white boy through and through," I'll take it as fact. So what? MP3 devices and the internet has so thoroughly connected musicians around the world that somebody growing up in the same society does not indicate what their musical tastes are going to be. I grew up in Hong Kong and Malaysia, what style of music should I be "into?"
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
OSC formed his musical tastes in a time when such devices as mp3 devices and the internet didn't exist. We shouldn't forget that, Blackblade.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Mr. Card has spent a good deal of time in choirs and according to him he was a child soprano. Based on the many posts he has made about music and music related electronics, it sounds like he spends a very significant chunk of his day listening to music.
This does not make his article a) tasteful b) informed or informative or c) useful in any way to anyone.
I suppose I should be the mayor of San Francisco because that's where I grew up. Hey, I know where all the streets are, so, surely I know which of them are best.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:This does not make his article a) tasteful b) informed or informative or c) useful in any way to anyone.
Thus speaks the person who's wasted his life by studying music. Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: ... I grew up in Hong Kong and Malaysia, what style of music should I be "into?"
Out of curiosity, what kind of music are you into actually?
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
I knew it was only a matter of time before we got an OSC essay on "those crazy kids and their rap music."
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Card seems to value art for meaning and emotion and these things have to be communicated somehow. Any literature or music that he deems to be encoded or otherwise inaccessible to the masses doesn't succeed in what he values.
I agree with this to an extent; for instance I'd never pick up on the Canterbury Tales stuff in Eliot, and so for me that aspect does not work, or add value. (In fact my first thought in reading the brief analysis above was "I wonder if they're trying to read too much into it." My second thought was "that sounds clever, but what does it mean?")
However, I don't begrudge anyone enjoyment in things that are too esoteric for most people. Go for it. (As long as one doesn't sneer in the other direction - that would be annoying elitism.)
Perhaps Card isn't being consistent if he's deriding entire genres or styles that DO communicate and evoke in ways that are meaningful to the audience.
On the subject of declaring his opinions to be the incontrovertible truth: just imagine those opinions being delivered in a stage voice with a smile and a wink. He really doesn't take himself that seriously when he declares that anyone who disagrees with his preference in yogurt is hopelessly lacking in taste, it's just him trying to be cute.
Posted by lobo (Member # 1761) on :
From the articles I have read, I think Card has a more diverse experience of music than most of you. The statement that he is a "Utah white boy" is stupid...
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:This does not make his article a) tasteful b) informed or informative or c) useful in any way to anyone.
Thus speaks the person who's wasted his life by studying music.
I sometimes attempt to be any one of those things... if not all at once.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by lobo: From the articles I have read, I think Card has a more diverse experience of music than most of you. The statement that he is a "Utah white boy" is stupid...
Well, he's a California white boy actually, just like me. He and I were born in the same town (iirc).
As for his "diverse experience of music," first of all I doubt you're right to say he has more than most of us, because the particular people posting in this thread are probably hatrack's audiophiles and music lovers particularly. And even if that was true, OSC's constant, constant attempts to gain the high ground by equating his life experiences with qualifications for his dismissive statements about every one and everything he doesn't like, are fallacious. He can no doubt name more songs than I can from the decades of life experience he has had- but that does not make his judgment about music or his taste in it superior. In fact, from the many ignorant and mean-spirited things he has posted on Hatrack and in his columns about music and musicians, I have come to have little respect for his opinion on the subject, and find him to be ill-informed on it. Even worse, he inflicts his opinions on a broad base of possibly credulous fans and readers, and seems to enjoy doing so with as little helpful information or substantive support for his opinions as humanly possible. Great writer does not always equal great ideas, or great acts.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:Card seems to value art for meaning and emotion and these things have to be communicated somehow. Any literature or music that he deems to be encoded or otherwise inaccessible to the masses doesn't succeed in what he values.
The thing is, the masses have a code all their own, and Card doesn't get it. (Part of the code is that sexual promiscuity is comedic rather than tragic.) Kanye West does get it, so his art ends up being far more accessible than Card's, despite mostly being worse.
Posted by Clumpy (Member # 8122) on :
Do you think Card's work is impacted by the fact that he mostly goes by the real-life consequences of things like sexual promiscuity (tragedy) rather than the manufactured ones that only exist in popular media?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
"The thing is, the masses have a code all their own, and Card doesn't get it. (Part of the code is that sexual promiscuity is comedic rather than tragic.) Kanye West does get it, so his art ends up being far more accessible than Card's, despite mostly being worse."
Even in the most extreme interpretation of "inaccessible=bad", the inverse would never be true, i.e. "accessible=/=good". Inaccessibility might an obstacle to value in art, but the value does not come from the accessibility.
Card's worldview in his fiction is comprehensible and his message is clear. The fact that you know that Card finds promiscuity to be undesirable means you were able to access one of the meanings of his art.
BTW, Card thinks "Two and half men" is a good show. Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clumpy: Do you think Card's work is impacted by the fact that he mostly goes by the real-life consequences of things like sexual promiscuity (tragedy) rather than the manufactured ones that only exist in popular media?
What manufactured consequences are you referring to, exactly?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I think the main one is awesomeness.
Mostly there's a lack of realistic consequences.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clumpy: Do you think Card's work is impacted by the fact that he mostly goes by the real-life consequences of things like sexual promiscuity (tragedy) rather than the manufactured ones that only exist in popular media?
Actually he goes off of the theoretical and impersonal consequences of things like sexual promiscuity. All of his writing about the improvement of society, with rare exception, discounts the importance of individual cases, and talks about the general shapes of society- this allows him to ignore and discount his personal relationships with homosexuals, the testimony of individuals who do enjoy and value hip-hop music or post-tonal music, and the opinions of pretty much anyone who disagrees with him on anything. On the one hand, the power of anecdote is dangerous, but the blinding power of a totally theoretical perfect world is just as bad... or worse.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:Do you think Card's work is impacted by the fact that he mostly goes by the real-life consequences of things like sexual promiscuity (tragedy) rather than the manufactured ones that only exist in popular media?
Impacted? Of course. Whether the impact is for good or for ill, it does put him out of step with a large segment of the public.
Almost no art portrays sex in a fully true-to-life manner. (If it did, it'd be a lot less watchable/readable.) That goes for OSC's books as well as rap music. Each distorts the subject matter in its own way, to its own effect. Many people nowadays are more comfortable with humorous portrayals of sex than weighty ones. (Witness the popularity of Superbad/American Pie type movies.)
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Eduardo_Sauron: OSC formed his musical tastes in a time when such devices as mp3 devices and the internet didn't exist. We shouldn't forget that, Blackblade.
Good point. I'd say though that a thorough grounding in classical music, gospel, and pop music as well as whatever he picked up while living in Brazil is more than enough foundation for extensive taste in music. Perhaps this isn't the case but I think it's well within the realm of possibility.
Mucus: It would be hard to me to say everything I am into. It's almost more worth it to say what I'm NOT into. Oddly enough I didn't listen to anything outside classical music and whatever my parents listened to until high school. Radiohead, Jimmy Eat World, X Japan, Black Crows, Led Zeppelin, The Who, Dandy Warhols, Rage Against The Machine, Beethover/Rachmaninov is a pretty good list for describing the breadth of my tastes. The music that was current amongst the popular kids at my school never appealed to me.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
BB: I agree that a background in the genres you list would certainly constitute "extensive" taste in music. However, none of the genres you list (assuming we're excluding hip-hop from "pop") necessarily prepare one to critique hip-hop in an informed manner. As several people have pointed out in this thread, the qualities by which hip-hop is judged to be good or bad by its listeners can be very different from "traditional" measures of musicality like melodicism or dynamics.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
(For the record, I was just curious if BB picked up much music from Hong Kong or Malaysia rather than making any point about non-Asian music in general or hip-hop in specific.
My mind doesn't really process hip-hop as music* so I'm entirely divorced from that part of the conversation.
* Which is not intended as a knock against hip-hop, I'm sure many people do and enjoy it. I have entirely no problem with that)
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Mucus: I do have have a small place in my heart for Mayday (Wu Yue Tian.) They are a Taiwanese rock band that temporarily broke up because all four of them started reaching conscription age. It was kinda...cute? I can't think of a better word for it. I need to look up and see if they have cut an albums recently. I don't think I'd like Daft Punk if I hadn't grown up in Hong Kong now that I think about it.
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