Even though I'm not sure it's appropriate. Someone suggested that Card might not be visiting these forums anymore, due to some recent problems with a specific member who, in all honesty, is probably getting a real kick out of chasing Card of his own forum.
I don't have a problem with that, life offers people like that few real joys. I suppose they have to make shift with what they can get.
More to the point, is there any substance to this rumor? I mean, Card and his entire family have taken a lot of abuse from this person and his crowd before, and they've always come back for more. So I'm not optimistic about the chances that Card will do anything sensible like ending the whole thing. And I don't see anything like a solid statement one way or the other.
To be honest, I hope that Card has left, and eventually has the good grace to shut this place down, for the sake of all of us that are injured by its very existance. I don't care how "Christ-like" it is to turn the other cheek, it's every bit as Christ-like to cleanse the temple from time to time. I'm not going to compare this site to a temple, that would be silly. But a lot of people come here because they are fans of OSC. They don't deserve to be met by the derision and hatred of everything about the man that is regular fare on this site.
If someone wants a forum that is all about how misguided and wrongheaded everything Card thinks, writes, or does...well, that person can start a forum for that sort of viewpoint easily enough. Why should Card host such a forum himself? It's not for the benefit of anyone that actually likes him or his work, that's for damn sure.
Anyway, if he's on the fence about his continued self abasement before evil, I'll cast a vote in favor of trying something new. But mainly I just want to know what he's decided about the whole thing.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
You know, if you begin a thread by questioning its appropriatness, chances are you shouldn't have begun the thread.
:hint, hint:
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
OSC chased off his own forum? Shutting down Hatrack? "Hatred of everything about the man that is regular fare on this site"?!?! I for one have no idea what this is about. Although I'm sure that Card gets his fair share of criticism from time to time, I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of the people here are OSC fans, who really enjoy posting here and having the opportunity to interact with him. Either you're blowing things way out of proportion, or I've really had my head in the sand for several months... Posted by LB Bry (Member # 8309) on :
OSC posted just last night...so i dont think he was chased off.
Survivor's referring to the TomDavidson's thread on OSC's magazine. Tom's a blunt guy, but quite able to take criticism and the occasional verbal slap. I've done it to him myself once or twice.
While I'm sure OSC wasn't thrilled to have a thread on his site questioning what, I can only imagine, is quite an undertaking for OSC, I think OSC's quite capable of making his points, expressing his disappointment, and then moving on. He's not going to get chased off his own site. Nor will TomDavidson bring Hatrack down.
Now, I wouldn't be too surprised if this thread too is locked soon, and for good reason. Let's let this drop and move on with our lives.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:Even though I'm not sure it's appropriate. Someone suggested that Card might not be visiting these forums anymore, due to some recent problems with a specific member who, in all honesty, is probably getting a real kick out of chasing Card of his own forum.
I don't have a problem with that, life offers people like that few real joys. I suppose they have to make shift with what they can get.
I know Tom well enough to say that you're wrong...but hey, why not a little personal attack when you don't have any information, right?
quote:I mean, Card and his entire family have taken a lot of abuse from this person and his crowd before, and they've always come back for more.
What are you, a conspiracy theorist? There are the occasional scuffles when OSC publishes something particularly inciteful in Rhino, but otherwise, the OSC discussions are limited to praise and worship, mostly on the DAOSC side of the river.
quote:But a lot of people come here because they are fans of OSC. They don't deserve to be met by the derision and hatred of everything about the man that is regular fare on this site.
If you think that's regular fare, then you're not much of a regular.
Anyway, the issue's pretty much over. If you'd actually like to inform yourself of it, there are threads on the other side, and probably people you could email.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
Like I said, this is a discussion about OSC. I've known certain other people...for a long time. And I don't wish to be told anything about those people.
I happen to have a personal interest in seeing these forums either reformed or eliminated. I don't have any interest in seeing them defended. I stated that in terms I felt were fairly clear. I didn't feel like being coy about it, though I suppose I could have been.
Anyway, I'll be checking this thread for a while. I don't feel like reading all the other threads to find an answer. If Card does post again, I'm sure someone will tell me about it.
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
If you can't handle the heat stay away from the flame.
He posted today (well, the 30th) so he certainly isn't gone and I'm very glad of it.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
And I don't think that the Hatrack forums are going anywhere.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
See, but you were being coy about it. Trying to make this about the Secret Liberal Cabal and making up straw men-people who trash everything OSC does every day.
At least be honest and say you don't like the community as it is and give the real reasons.
"personal interest"..."certain other people". What sort of game are you playing?
I doubt OSC's going anywhere, nor Tom, nor Hatrack. Why not be part of the solution rather than part of the problem?
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
I don't even understand what the problem is. Maybe I miss a lot but since when do we have "praise police" here? If someone does not agree with everything OSC says and talks about it (I assume this is what is going on) then the forum should be shut down? OSC is a big boy and he has plenty of strong opinions. It's inevitable that people will disagree with him from time to time. I've never seen Tom be crude or totally disrespectful or hateful to OSC so what is this all about? I'll admit that I am not aware of what exactly happened so forgive this post if I am way off base here.
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
Ok, I went and found out what was going on. I think I was correct above, if a little off on the "why" of it all. I still think it's very strange. Some people will love what you do and some people will hate it. Why get so worked up? I'm sure Tom came here in the first place because he loves OSC's writing. That's why we are all here. I have seen enough now to know that he (OSC) would drive me nuts if I had to talk to him all the time. We are much to different. I don't agree with most anything he says about politics or religion or sometimes, even toilet paper! So what? I am here still because I respect him and love his stories. I have found a home here (I hope). I love the people, debates and even the occasional rout. I'm confused. Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Survivor: I happen to have a personal interest in seeing these forums either reformed or eliminated. I don't have any interest in seeing them defended. I stated that in terms I felt were fairly clear. I didn't feel like being coy about it, though I suppose I could have been.
That's the part I don't get. Why, exactly, are you interested in destroying a particularly good forum?
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Because its not a particularly good forum, but it definantly could be better and worth reforming. It has been worth keeping for years, but has had way too many problems for an equal amount of time. That is why I called myself "occasional" as it represented my feelings about the number of times I felt comfortable posting. There are some great discussions that happen, but most of it is heavy-handed hogwash of questionable worth.
I just wish OSC would get more guts and do something about some people. Heck, I would even be happy if he would give me some "Time Out" kicking off. As long as he was an equal opportunity kicker offer. For too long he has allowed too many people to get away with too much for a place that has a potential that is not getting reached. I guess for me he just hasn't lived up to his own standards as set up by the forum rules.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I happen to have a personal interest in seeing these forums either reformed or eliminated. I don't have any interest in seeing them defended. I stated that in terms I felt were fairly clear. I didn't feel like being coy about it, though I suppose I could have been.
Unfortunately for you, your interests don't dictate what other people post.
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
Olav, I just don't think that on a forum with this many people that it's reasonable to expect that everyone make nice all the time. Most of us are adults here, and we can handle criticism. Sometimes it's a bit harsh. I've said things occasionaly that people have ripped me apart for because they believe something different than me. I'm ok with that because they are people on the internet. It's not my mother or my boyfriend or my best friend. People can say stupid things, they can overreact and they can be brutal. When this has happened to me, I've either explained why I said what I said in a post or I've moved on with my life. I know this case was different because OSC was talking about a new venture but not everyone is going to think it's amazing. I'll admit the first time I saw that site was when I went to the locked thread and read it. I probably would not have looked at it otherwise. Now, it looks like something I would like to pay for. Though I think there were some good suggestions about making it more pleasing to the eye, personally I don't care if it's georgous. I'll go anyway. The point was that others who don't worship OSC the way we do might not. OSC gets plenty of "we're not worthy!" on this forum. I just don't think it would kill him to get some criticism as well, even if the terms used were severe.
Posted by DavidGill (Member # 8166) on :
Survivor, if you dislike the other forum so much, why did you start a thread here to extend the carnage to this side of the fence?
Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
Well, I don't worship Scott, nor do I suggest you worship him. I merely like him. And I've been known criticize him plenty. I don't agree with his politics. I don't always agree with his views on religion. He's offended other friends of mine in writer world with zingers that still sting years later.
I'm not suggesting you prostrate yourself. I'm suggesting you word comments in a way that would be appropriate if you were both in the same room together. Because he is, at the core, a decent guy. Not perfect. And more sensitive than people seem to realize.
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
But Olav, I do worship him. I wasn't being funny. The word "worship" may be a little extreme but that's how I feel about his writing and obvious intelligence. The problem I see is that so many people feel they know him from his writing. If I was in a room with him I probably wouldn't be as polite as I would be to a stranger. With my friends, if something looks bad I sometimes let it be known in a way I might not to someone I just met. Like when AoD showed us her picture...If I hated it I certainly wouldn't tell her that. (I didn't hate it Aod!) I don't know her. I would be polite and say it just wasn't my style. If my boyfriend (and this has happened before) let me listen to a new song he was working on and I thought it stunk the way it was but could be better with some changes I would tell him. I wouldn't be harsh about it (that's why I thought Tom's comment was too brutal) but I certainly wouldn't let him go on thinking everything was fine. You tend to be less polite to someone you know and care about, since you think you can state your opinions to them and they know you love then so they won't be totally offended. I don't know if I explained this well. <sigh>
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I happen to have a personal interest in seeing these forums either reformed or eliminated. I don't have any interest in seeing them defended. I stated that in terms I felt were fairly clear. I didn't feel like being coy about it, though I suppose I could have been.
Maybe this is a silly question, but if you dislike the current iteration of the forums so much, why are you here? As I remember, registration here was voluntary and, unlike Hotel California, you're free to go at any time.
It just seems like that would be simpler than the total overhaul that you propose (for no good reason, by the way).
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
The OSC post linked to has a timestamp of 12:40 am. His last post was post #54 on the Intergalactic Medicine show criticism thread.
quote:Maybe this is a silly question, but if you dislike the current iteration of the forums so much, why are you here?
Let's try rephrasing the question: Maybe this is a silly question, but if you dislike the current owner of the forms so much, why are you here?
I don't know where you, de Spang, fall on OSC's politics, religion, and series of books. But there are many whole complain regularly about most of these things an some few who complain about all.
P.S. You can see someone's posting history by clicking on their member name which brings up their profile (the little information card icon also does this) and "view recent posts" appears in the upper right. Or you can click directly on their post count.
It seemed to me that Card acted the same as most other people on the forum, but because he was the owner, everyone expected him to be better somehow. Or rather, on the BFFAC, I should say.
Oh, and by the way, good to see you around, Survivor.
[ October 01, 2005, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
Wow, I just caught up on this whole mess, in both threads, and I'm just amazed at some people's behavior.
If you don't like a project that someone has poured their heart and soul into (such as the Medicine Show, or this site), then it seems to me that you have two honorable options:
1. Contact the originator in private and express your concerns and suggestions respectfully.
2. Shut your damn mouth.
Trying to publically flay them or sabotage their goals for the horrific sin of failing to fully please you is an act that truly mystifies me. Why would any human being even think of doing that?
I love Hatrack. I feel like I practically grew up here. Like any community, it has had its hard times and its great times, but in the end, it is a rare thing to find a site that, while not perfect, strives the way this one does to achieve a high standard of respectful discourse and community.
What in the hell kind of person sees a project like that and tries to tear it down? If you don't think it is succeeding, then help it succeed. Don't try to ruin it further for the people who still care about it, just because it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard or yours.
My parents go through hell to keep this site running. They deal with untold amounts of criticism and hurt, much of it behind the scenes, where you don't get to see it, dealing with angry and spiteful people trying to tear them or this place down. More than once, they have considered saving a bunch of money and pain, and just cutting this place out of their lives. But they keep it up because they believe we can achieve something great here, and they are just idealistic enough to keep trying, whatever the cost to them emotionally.
Don't spit on the sacrifices they've made. If you don't like it here, you are welcome to never come back again, and I won't miss you a bit. But don't try to destroy a place that I have come to love as a second home. Well, maybe a third or fourth home ... [counts homes in his head] or sixth ... anyway, you get my point. Stop being giant jerks, and start making a positive difference for a change.
(Obviously, I'm only talking to a few people. But they needed to hear it.)
[ October 01, 2005, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: A Rat Named Dog ]
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
I did leave. But even so, there are people who come here in all innocence and end up getting hurt. I happen to believe that there is a higher than average chance of getting Card to do something about these forums right now. So I came back to check, and to lend my voice in support of such an action.
The truth is, I didn't exactly voluntarily register here in the first place. And for a long time I've ignored the fact that I ever had a username on these forums. But that's not really the point.
Look at the posts thus far. Most of them say that the kind of criticism of Card that we see around here is normal and healthy. But that's manifestly untrue. It isn't normal for most sites and forums to allow this kind of unrestricted hostility towards the community that is the theoretical or nominal purpose of the forum. It is especially not normal for an individual person to continue to tolerate this level of misbehavior and derision directed at himself, on his own site.
And it isn't healthy. For one thing, it leads to constant bitterness and division in the community. Particularly directed against those persons that find Card an insightful and reasonable commentator on our society and humanity in general, both through his fiction and his non-fiction. If you agree with Card about many things, you are in the definite minority here. The majority of this community is clearly held together by their desire to tell each other how wrongheaded Card is, along with all his ideas, beliefs, writings and so forth.
Besides being bad for the community, look at how this environment distorts all your perceptions of what is expected behavior when visiting a site devoted to the fans of an artist's works. You claim not not see how sick you are. I don't know whether to believe that or not, in any case I don't care. It isn't healthy, whatever else it may be.
Anyway, from the evidence of this thread, those on this site who believe that it is actually for people that admire or at least respect Card in any meaningful way (saying "he can take it" when he has said he doesn't like something doesn't count) are in the definite minority. But I already knew that. I know a lot of fans of Card. Very few of them belong to this site despite being outspoken and highly literate individuals. Because whatever its original purpose, this site is simply not a hospitable place to people that actually like Card or his works.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
I beg to differ. I am a huge fan of Card's works, and I find this community to be a wonderful place for the most part. If you don't like it here, bugger off, but leave the rest of us alone.
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
I think that it is only reasonable for people to be a bit more deferential to OSC being as it is his site and it is about him and his works. I'm not saying don't criticize - but it should be done in a polite manner. It is like his living room, and I'll tell ya - if people came into my home, and spoke to me or about me the way they do to OSC, I'd do the Eddie Murphy thing and tell 'em - it's my home, <unprintable>, and if ya don't like it, you can get the <unprintable> out!
So 'e's been a model of restraint.
There are those who feel that when they are right they can use whatever blunt words they want to express their opinion. Maybe at times they're right to do so, but when their target is the owner of the site they should be very circumspect. In private would be best.
If one don't like what he has to say to the point that one has to be offensive, the polite thing to do would be to find another forum to say so. Don't pee in his pool.
From looking at OSC's posts, he might have decided to leave for a while. Take a look at his profile, the last one was regarding the website contention.
If so, this is a tragedy. And a travesty. I'm sure that there are plenty like myself who come here for what OSC has to say. I hope everyone realizes how cool it is that an author actually has his own website with a forum that he actually posts on. There are a few others - he's not the only one - but Hatrack allows the rare chance for a fan to get a better view into the mind of an author, and that allows for a better connection when you read his books. I've never met OSC. I don't think I've ever even had an exchange with him on this forum. The closest I come to actually knowing him is that both of my parents somewhat knew him from being in the drama department at BYU at the same time. Nevertheless, I feel like I know him better because of his posts on this forum. That's just super cool.
So OSC doesn't feel like he's all that...but a lot of us do. This forum would become much emptier with him gone. There are those, myself included, whose main reason to come is to have some sort of interaction with OSC - even as a lurker. I certainly don't come because of (certain person(s) who shall remain unmentioned).
I am in the apparent minority of those who agree with OSC most of the time, but even when I don't, I can't think of any of his posts that didn't make me think and re-evaluate my thoughts.
So, an open plea to OSC - don't go. Please keep posting, and ignore the jerks.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I'm sure that there are plenty like myself who come here for what OSC has to say.
I don't mean to take away from anything that's been said here -- much of which I agree with -- but I should point out that for the vast majority of this particular site's lifespan, OSC posted so rarely that it was a forum-wide event when he did. It's only in the last few months -- since at least the last seven years -- that people could count on hearing from him more than once every five or six months, if even that often.
If people came here only for what OSC had to say, they generally never made it as far as the forums -- because, by and large, most of what he had to say wound up in articles and announcements on the front page, not on these pages. I notice that you registered in February of this year, and so you were never here back when he wasn't. That's a good thing, of course -- because had you come by a few months earlier, back when no one ever expected him to swing through the forums (and indeed celebrated on the rare occasions when he did), the forums would have seemed very empty to you. But a lot of us were there anyway; in fact, I'd say the overwhelming majority of the posters on these forums remember those times. I can't speak to the lurker population, obviously.
That said, we were overjoyed when he started posting here more often; I agree that the forums are a much more interesting place with him there, and would hate to see him write them off. I think it's very valuable for him to know that people like having him around.
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
I've lurked here off and on for many years, but you are correct that I didn't take the time to register until OSC started posting more. So I'm a case in point for what you are saying. Without the input of the subject, I never saw any point in registering and posting. Still don't see much.
Until OSC started posting here, Hatrack was just another forum, not much different than any other. Could have hosted it anywhere, by anyone, and I doubt it would have been much different. But add OSC to it, and then it becomes special. Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I can't speak to the lurker population, obviously.
And, I, for one, am grateful that you don't try to speak to us, lurker population.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It'd make for an odd post, wouldn't it:
"Hello, lurkers! How are you, whomever you are, doing today, whenever today happens to be? I don't really expect a reply since I know you're lurkers, but I just wanted to let you know that we know you're out there and really, really care about you. Okay? Bye!"
-------
"Until OSC started posting here, Hatrack was just another forum, not much different than any other. Could have hosted it anywhere, by anyone, and I doubt it would have been much different. But add OSC to it, and then it becomes special."
This may be part of the disconnect. To many of the long-time regulars here, the forum was already special. And I think part of the reason a lot of the OSC-fanboy newbies haven't been welcomed with open arms by some people is their implicit -- or, in your case, directly stated -- belief that the only person worth interacting with here is the host himself.
Don't get me wrong; OSC is a great guy, and it's wonderful to get the chance to hear him describe his writing process, his frame of mind -- or, especially (IMO), his silly sense of humor when he's been up late and feels like riffing on something. But precisely because this place didn't have a lot of that a few years ago, we've learned to also enjoy conversation with each other, and I think people sense when some new visitor has no interest in talking or listening to anyone else but OSC. It's great to see a famous and talented author being human here. But there are other humans being human here all the time.
Yeah, when it's all said and done, it's just another forum. But some people really like it, and I think you do them a disservice by suggesting that they may as well shut up or go away. I don't think OSC agrees, either; if he did, this place would just be a blog.
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: It'd make for an odd post, wouldn't it:
"Hello, lurkers! How are you, whomever you are, doing today, whenever today happens to be? I don't really expect a reply since I know you're lurkers, but I just wanted to let you know that we know you're out there and really, really care about you. Okay? Bye!"
-------
"Until OSC started posting here, Hatrack was just another forum, not much different than any other. Could have hosted it anywhere, by anyone, and I doubt it would have been much different. But add OSC to it, and then it becomes special."
This may be part of the disconnect. To many of the long-time regulars here, the forum was already special. And I think part of the reason a lot of the OSC-fanboy newbies haven't been welcomed with open arms by some people is their implicit -- or, in your case, directly stated -- belief that the only person worth interacting with here is the host himself.
I didn't say that OSC is the only one worth interacting with here - I said that interacting with him is the main reason for some people, myself included to come. There are plenty of forums with plenty of people who are worth interacting with, not just Hatrack. I don't post on them either. Not because I disdain them, but because I don't want to get sucked in.
Don't put words in my mouth, Tom. I'm quite capable of doing it myself. And while you may choose to dismiss me as a "OSC-fanboy newbie", there is nothing wrong with agreeing with OSC more often than not, nor with expressing one's appreciation for him, nor even with admitting that one's main reason for coming to OSC's site is OSC.
Furthermore, I'm not really sure where this statement about not being welcomed with open arms came from. In my case, the vast majority of people here have been quite welcoming to me when I choose to post. Whether they agree with me when I post is another thing, but I wouldn't say that I feel unwelcome, nor that I should have any reason to do so.
In my experience, people here have been quite welcoming to so-called "OSC-fanboy newbies."
quote: Don't get me wrong; OSC is a great guy, and it's wonderful to get the chance to hear him describe his writing process, his frame of mind -- or, especially (IMO), his silly sense of humor when he's been up late and feels like riffing on something. But precisely because this place didn't have a lot of that a few years ago, we've learned to also enjoy conversation with each other, and I think people sense when some new visitor has no interest in talking or listening to anyone else but OSC. It's great to see a famous and talented author being human here. But there are other humans being human here all the time.
Again, don't put words in my mouth. I've never actually talked to OSC, but rather to other people on the forum. Not have I said that that the people here are human or not, nor have I said that there is anything wrong with people here enjoying conversation with each other. Nor is there anything wrong with the fact that I rarely enter these conversations. (I wouldn't be much of a lurker, otherwise, would I.) Furthermore, my choice not to enter these conversations does not indicate disapproval or a negative view of people who choose to do so. Again, you are putting words in my mouth.
quote: Yeah, when it's all said and done, it's just another forum. But some people really like it, and I think you do them a disservice by suggesting that they may as well shut up or go away. I don't think OSC agrees, either; if he did, this place would just be a blog.
Lastly, I never suggested that anyone may as well shut up or go away. I stated:
quote:when their target is the owner of the site they should be very circumspect. In private would be best.
I also stated:
quote:If one don't like what he has to say to the point that one has to be offensive, the polite thing to do would be to find another forum to say so.
I even began with:
quote:I'm not saying don't criticize - but it should be done in a polite manner.
Nowhere did I say that anyone should shut up or go away. I explained what I felt were reasonable ways to handle disagreements and criticisms of our host, but nowhere did I assert people who chose not to should leave. I find it difficult to believe that with your admirable command of the English language that you are not deliberately misunderstanding me. But in case you are, let me summarize:
This forum is good.
Most of the people here are good.
The fact that I don't post much here is not a reflection on the people here.
OSC is the main draw for me to come to this forum.
Please don't go, OSC.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Thanks for clarifying, tern. I appreciate it, and am sorry I misunderstood you.
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
Not a problem. You are very gracious.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
So if this is OSC's living room, and he has said he is banning himself from his own living room, does the party just go on? Survivor is merely saying maybe the living room should stop being called Card's living room at that point.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
quote:Because whatever its original purpose, this site is simply not a hospitable place to people that actually like Card or his works.
I think that the vast majority of people here like at least some of OSC's work and at the very least, appreciate his commitment to family, community and his faith.
I've been here a while now, and can only conclude that it is those people who are positively touched by his words who come to this site and invest themselves in it. I believe that it is his vision and stories that has created a focal point for very idealistic, high quality people who have joined together to become this community.
Though Tom's thoughts and words have been a huge benefit to me and I agree with most of Tom's political views, this is not his forum. New people don't come here drawn by Tom's ideas and words; they come because they're looking for OSC or a friend has directed them to this wonderful community created by OSC.
It is fortunate and a terrific thing that no one person represents the community. But because we constantly get new members influenced by OSC's work, we get a new perspective from those same wonderful books that touched us to our cores, so in effect, OSC's thoughts are constantly new here. OSC doesn't have to show-up on a regular basis to make a regular impact.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Though Tom's thoughts and words have been a huge benefit to me and I agree with most of Tom's political views, this is not his forum. New people don't come here drawn by Tom's ideas and words; they come because they're looking for OSC or a friend has directed them to this wonderful community created by OSC.
And this is exactly as it should be. If I wanted people to be drawn to my ideas and words, I'd spend more time having ideas and saying stuff. This place is OSC's, and I want to reiterate that I have never implied otherwise. There is no "competition" between us as far as I'm concerned, and it's downright ridiculous to imagine how there could be any; our lives move in very different orbits. Until I manage to pick up my second Hugo and get my own fan club, or until he picks up a CCNA and starts doing freelance network administration, the idea that we could even be at loggerheads baffles me. You may as well say that Ally Sheedy and I are arch-enemies.
I mean, the guy runs the site. His name is on the masthead. He pays for the bandwidth, and writes the books that make the fans who seek this place out. I'm a network admin in Wisconsin who's not even in the first page of hits on my own name in Google (although admittedly people with my name have started software companies and starred in movies, so I've got a fair bit of competition on that score anyway.) I like to think I contribute to the site, but there's a huge difference between that and implying, in effect, that a Quality Assurance tester at Microsoft who helped debug the last version of Office is a rival to Bill Gates.
I've got my own accomplishments, and -- despite all the self-disparaging -- I'm pretty happy with them. I don't need to take credit for someone else's, and I especially don't need people to think that I think I need to. *laugh*
[ October 01, 2005, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
We're all so very civil now, aren't we? Such models of self restraint and deference to each other.
It's so easy to sit here and titter over our host's overreaction to such a minor thing, isn't it? And aren't we so clever for knowing who is worthy of our company? After all, the important thing is our good opinions about each other.
Perhaps. I wouldn't know anything about that. All I know is that this sort of "civility" turns my stomach. The truth is that it isn't really the disagreements with Card that I dislike. On the forums I frequent, I certainly am quite free with my criticisms of his writing. Sure, I'm also free with my praise, but none of it was flattery.
I dislike the way you people work. The way you like to paint your behavior as oh so normal and ever so correct. Anyone that suggests otherwise is to be instantly dismissed. And those that can't keep up with the hypocrisy, well, fie on them.
You can pretend that I've misjudged you and your works, but I know what I'm talking about here. I know exactly why I left and why I've come back.
This place attracts a large number of intelligent, literate, sensitive, and otherwise wonderful people. But most of them don't stay. And I know why. I imagine that those of you that caused them to leave, often one by one, sometimes a dozen at a time, I can hardly imagine you're utterly ignorant of why they feel unwelcome on this forum. And yet, experience tells me that at least some of you just don't realize it at all.
Perhaps you're just too subtle for yourselves.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*laugh* Chiu, if anybody's being coy -- or hypocritical -- on this thread, it's you. You and I both know your history, and I think it's safe to say that I know exactly what you're saying and, moreover, why you're saying it. But what you really want to have is a conversation that I don't think can be productively had in public. At the end of the day, you don't intend for this thread to be "a discussion about OSC" at all, and you and I both know it. I hoped that you'd get the hint, since I've quite obviously avoided taking your bait, but it looks like you're going to post over and over again -- getting closer and closer to saying what you really want to say -- until somebody fills in the blanks for you. So go ahead and fill in the blanks now, man. Save some bandwidth. But don't expect me to engage you on the topic here.
That said, you are -- as always -- welcome to drop me an email. I've made this offer before, and you've failed to take me up on it; I suspect, quite frankly, that you like to grandstand and insinuate and whine more than you like to engage people in actual discussion. But I would not be heartbroken if you proved me wrong.
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
Maybe I'm just too new to understand what the heck that was all about? *points to Survivor's latest post*
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yeah. *wry laugh*
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
btw "This place attracts a large number of intelligent, literate, sensitive, and otherwise wonderful people. But most of them don't stay. And I know why. I imagine that those of you that caused them to leave, often one by one, sometimes a dozen at a time, I can hardly imagine you're utterly ignorant of why they feel unwelcome on this forum. "
I don't feel unwelcome. Does that mean I'm stupid, illiterate, insensitive and an otherwise horrible person? j/k
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, in Richard's defense, it's entirely possible that all but less than a single percent of the intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful people who come to this site not only don't stay but never even post. I have no idea how many lurkers are out there -- Hey, Steev! -- or how many of them are intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful. While we could probably estimate the percentage of people currently posting to Hatrack who are intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful, I don't know how we'd gather hard data on the number of intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful visitors who do not currently post and/or have never posted.
Maybe we need a guestbook. We could include the questions "are you intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful?" and "if you choose not to post in the forum, is it because you don't like TomDavidson?" Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
quote:We're all so very civil now, aren't we? Such models of self restraint and deference to each other.
It's so easy to sit here and titter over our host's overreaction to such a minor thing, isn't it? And aren't we so clever for knowing who is worthy of our company? After all, the important thing is our good opinions about each other.
Survivor, I would argue that that this is how a community is supposed to work. The worst thing you can do, IMO, is quit.
Personally, I don't think that OSC overreacted to what was said, but I also don't think that Tom would have said what he did if he had known that the ezine was so important to OSC, or that the money and time spent was significant.
I can tell by your number that you've been around forever, but by the number of times you contributed and your willingness to say "I hope that Card has left, and eventually has the good grace to shut this place down, for the sake of all of us that are injured by its very existance." shows that you've invested very little here.
I am civil to Tom because I respect him. I don't like or agree with how he said what he said, but that doesn't wash away the years of positive insights I've gleened from him.
There are many things that OSC has said that I dislike, but I will continue to read those ideas and assume that they have merit simply because OSC has said them.
Does this make me shallow, a kiss-up or does this "civility" turn your stomach? The problem is that your opinion of me doesn't matter to me because you've contributed nothing to my life. If you'd given more to the forum, I'm sure that I'd be able to value your point of view, even though I don't share it.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
I think that in general, Tom is a good person to have around on Hatrack, and I'm glad this incident hasn't scared him away. I don't share OSC's evaluation of his character. In fact, I rather like him.
At the same time, though, I think that the thread that Tom started (that started this whole mess) was a really crappy thing to do. No amount of "he didn't understand how much went into it" can explain away his behavior. That was just a terrible way to treat someone else's heartfelt effort in a public place where they will be affected by it in front of people whose opinions they value, and I found it shocking and embarrassing that Tom, whom I normally respect, could do something so bizarrely awful.
However, I do think it is possible for a decent person to thoughtlessly do an awful thing, though I would expect that somewhere, behind the scenes, a sincere apology would be in order. (I'm in no position to know whether or not one took place, and Tom is under no obligation to ME to say either way, I'm just mentioning it.) I know that Tom has handled a past situation like this quite well before, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he's been a gentleman about the whole thing.
But seriously, holy crap, what were you THINKING, dude?
EDIT: Actually, never mind, you've already been officially Raked-Over-The-Coals; you don't need it from me, too. I mostly just wanted to make it clear that while I don't agree with everything OSC said in response to that thread, his emotional reaction was not an "overreaction". I'd say it was pretty much exactly the emotional reaction you should expect; much the way you should expect someone to double over when you stab them in the gut.
[ October 02, 2005, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: Puppy ]
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
Nicely put, LadyDove!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Treason: Maybe I'm just too new to understand what the heck that was all about? *points to Survivor's latest post*
I think I'm too new to understand what that was about. Posted by Salah (Member # 7294) on :
Goodness, aren't there enough problems in the real world outside the net?
This is all so fake-- it's the internet. Why become so incredibly frustrated and/or confused at people who don't even exist in real life? IT'S JUST A FORUM for goodness sake.
It's simply not worth it to be so intense or even mad at such a thing as typing away aggressive statements to someone who isn't even a part of your REAL life- put your efforts into caring about people and situations that don't exist on a screen.
I post here for fun, that's it. I don't need something non-existent to my real life stressing me out. Speaking of fun, my friends and I are about to go play a game of twister with a strobe light on- now that's some good times!
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
Salah, while I understand the point you're getting at, the fact that there ARE real people behind each of these screen names means that real feelings can be hurt. Not everyone is able to just write people off because they've never met face-to-face.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
The internet IS some people's lives. Sad as that is.
What if you'd been talking to someone you'd never met on the phone for a while, discussing your grandmothers' recipes, and one day they started telling you your dog was ugly? Wouldn't that hurt your feelings?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
For what it's worth, Geoff -- and I haven't said this before because indeed it would have diluted my earlier apologies, and I tried very, very hard not to do that in the other threads your dad was reading -- I had no idea that the design of that site was a product of his "heartfelt effort." I know the idea of the site was, and I'm sure the content and long-term survival of the site is something he cares about a great deal, but the appearance of the site was something that I'd assumed he'd contracted out to a third party, which is IMX usually what's done in these cases. It's precisely because I assumed his focus was on the content and long-term survival of the site that I erroneously assumed that gathering some unvarnished opinions on what I felt was the unprofessional appearance of the site might be helpful to him.
I may be making a distinction between appearance and content that, while common in the web design circles in which I work, might not be one with which OSC is accustomed.
Anyway, while I haven't said this to him -- mainly because I don't think it actually makes what I said any better, although it perhaps makes it more easily explicable -- I hadn't figured that he'd had much of a role, if any, in how the site itself looked or was coded on the back end.
Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Well, in Richard's defense, it's entirely possible that all but less than a single percent of the intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful people who come to this site not only don't stay but never even post. I have no idea how many lurkers are out there -- Hey, Steev! -- or how many of them are intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful. While we could probably estimate the percentage of people currently posting to Hatrack who are intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful, I don't know how we'd gather hard data on the number of intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful visitors who do not currently post and/or have never posted.
Maybe we need a guestbook. We could include the questions "are you intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful?" and "if you choose not to post in the forum, is it because you don't like TomDavidson?"
Hi Tom,
Lurking, in my world has little to do with the kinds of people on the forums. It's mostly to do with how and where I choose to spend my time. I don't speak for any other lurker on this.
As for actually posting I find that in my own mind I'm intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful but later I find that I've offended more than half the forum population because the so called intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderfulness that I think I'm projecting from my self-centric thinking is interpreted as cynical, sarcastic and down right abrasive. I not as cynical as Survivor but I am at least as sarcastic and abrasive. In short, I tend to be a troll when I'm not careful.
Which brings me to yet another reason why I lurk. I'm practicing self-restraint from posting every little thing that crosses my mind. I don't want to be a troll so I try and keep my "dammed mouth shut".
EDIT: Hey, first post on page two!
[ October 02, 2005, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Steev ]
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
The idea behind this place keeps me coming back. Unlike most fan sites, this place by its nature allows for a variety of subjects. However, the majority of the people I have no feelings for and actually don't much like. A very few, and they don't post much, share my political beliefs; whre the majority are down right hostile. In fact, I don't believe a majority of them hold OSC's political beliefs and are downright hostile toward them.
That is where I think the disconnect happens to be between the "lurkers that leave" and those posters who stay. Many of them read OSC, read his views, and assume his forum would be filled with similar thinking people. With shock and disgust they discover that a majority of those who post are completely opposite and even offensive. So, with nowhere to go, they simply go away. I would like to leave, but Hatrack does offer the most interesting topics even if the views expressed are offensive.
To be honest, I have been contemplating an Alternative Hatrack for a while. A place where those who disagree with the general atomosphere and political leanings of Hatrack can go somewhere else and have the discussions they thought they were going to have here. The problem is that I don't have the time or the money for such a venture. I guess I could ask those who are slighted if they could do that? We could gather names of the disgruntled and offer them a new place to hang.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Tom, I don't know if that's your real name, but when someone uses an internet handle it is polite to use it instead of their name. Please edit your posts.
P.S. Occasional, OSC already pays for Ornery. It isn't just for people who don't agree with him. It's for anyone who likes their discussion more spirited.
Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: P.S. Occasional, OSC already pays for Ornery. It isn't just for people who don't agree with him. It's for anyone who can't be civil.
yeah. I tried to hang out there and got fed up with it quickly and caused me to do something stupid by starting *this* thread.
For the record I'm 99.44% inline with OSC's views (except for his opinion about the movie National Treasure) and think Occasional has a good point but I don't care enough to do much about it though.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:That said, we were overjoyed when he started posting here more often; I agree that the forums are a much more interesting place with him there, and would hate to see him write them off. I think it's very valuable for him to know that people like having him around
Hrm. This statement-particularly the first part-doesn't mesh at all with what I've read on Hatrack over the years and past months especially, Tom. People have often publicly not been glad he's posting more at Hatrack, and people have even occassionally been public in their expression of quite the opposite.
-----------
That said, I don't much care for this thread. It seems to be made under the vaguely mysterious, "I'm doing a good thing...but I can't talk about it," melodrama method which is exactly that because if you can't be specific, don't talk about it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: Tom, I don't know if that's your real name, but when someone uses an internet handle it is polite to use it instead of their name. Please edit your posts.
*bewildered* Did I miss the Netiquette lesson on this? IME, some people prefer to be addressed by their SN, some prefer to be addressed by their name (and may sign their posts with it), and some don't care.
I really don't think there's some hard-and-fast rule that has been violated here, pooka.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Some people prefer it. Some don't. Some find it creepy and stalkerish. I fall in the third category, especially where it is used to imply intimacy where there is none. It certainly underscores for me Survivor's point that there is a phoney veneer of pleasantry over hostility occuring here.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
I expect it's that for the discerning reader, they now know Survivor's first and last name - which perhaps he doesn't mind people knowing (I get to know it because he gave some first rate writing critiques a few years back via e-mail from the Writer's Side), but who's to say that he wanted the rest of the internet folks to know that?
*shrugs*
Anyway - there's no hard or fast "netiquette" rules about it that I know of, rivka . . . *smile*
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I specifically used Richard's name here because a) it's also his publicly available email address, so it's hard to imagine that he keeps it a secret; and b) those people who might wonder why Survivor is so incredibly hostile to me might not wonder if they knew he was also a certain Chiu from Ornery (assuming of course that they were also regular visitors to Ornery nearly four years ago).
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
It's more like if someone comes up and grabs your hand and your shoulder at a party but you don't know them well. Some people think that's really nice. Other people think it's really creepy. It's a risk one takes going to parties. :gets out sanitizing gel:
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
But Tom was attempting to emphasize that he did know Survivor better than the casual observer might assume.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
I think that pooka has been pretty accurate in her assesment of your intentions in posting that information, and yet you are actually correct in saying that I don't mind (even though I happen to know that you thought you were lying).
I also would encourage anyone interested in going over to Ornery and reading all of my comments there. I would also especially encourage you to read the posts that were made about me, both before and after I decided to leave that forum (as I had already left this forum).
And if any of you are aspiring writers or just want to improve your craft, feel free to read my posts in the writers forum. But if you aren't, then do us a favor and stay the hell out.
However, like I said, this thread isn't about anything other than what OSC is going to do about this forum. The attempt to derail the topic is expected, particularly since nobody seems to even know anything about the actual topic. But I would be lying if I said it were appreciated. I don't need more evidence of just how sick this place has become, I already know that.
If my opposition helps convince Card that this forum really is unalterably hostile to his actual fans, then that's all to the good. I just don't think it's really necessary. The rest of the forum contains plenty of evidence, thank-you0-all-ever-so-much.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
You presume too much, Survivor. I am an actual fan, and you don't speak for me. Nor is this forum "unalterably hostile" to me.
I would prefer a "phony veneer of pleasantry over hostility" to all the miserably bad mind-reading that goes on around here.
The real irony, of course, is that the most frequently voiced complaint about OSC's essays is his assigning of motives to those who disagree with his political views, many of those complaints are based on the complainer's assigning of motives to OSC. The frequency of these complaints has now caused OSC to assign motives to someone else's complaints about a website, which has now caused Survivor to assign motives to a lot of people. I'll also note that he hasn't backed this up in any way, merely made ongoing assertions that his judgments of those motives are correct.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Onery has the same problem. It isn't about "spirited debate" or lack thereof that I and others have a problem. Its the disconnect between OSC and his views vs. the actual positions of the majority of Hatrack/Onery participants. And, its not like that can change any time soon as has been demonstrated for years. This is because the attitudes have been intrenched by very protective set of powerful long time participants; who even have come to regard it openly as THEIR forum even more than Mr. Card's.
I want an alternative place with a different vocal political majority. It should have two reasons for existance. One, that fanboy and fangirls can safely go to without always getting seen as "newbies" because they honor OSC as a celebrity rather than always have some wise "intellectual" statement that they must say. Two, that the majority can discuss OSCs views more in line with what the author himself has expressed.
Like I said, it would be great if someone would step forward and help develop that kind of a forum with more time and means than I do. Or, if one exists that would be nice to know.
Edit: It would even be nice to learn how I could develop such a place with little time and means.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm bemused, Richard. Do you seriously think I mean to imply any intimacy with you? If anything, I'm far more used to calling you Chiu -- the handle under which you had almost all your conversations with me -- than anything else. You may as well ask why I call pooka "pooka" even when she posts as mothertree. *laugh*
-------
"I want an alternative place with a different vocal political majority."
Good Lord, Occasional. Do you hear yourself? You're saying that what you'd really like is a giant right-wing daisy chain that just happens to also consist of OSC fans.
The implication here is that it's not possible to like OSC unless you also agree with his politics, which is self-evidently foolish. I might ask you, for example, how you feel about state-sponsored socialism, his economic method of choice.
Were a forum to exist only for OSC fans who were economic liberals, social conservatives, and ardent defenders of the social value of some "R"-rated movies, there'd be about six people there and they'd have nothing to say to each other.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
quote:Good Lord, Occasional. Do you hear yourself? You're saying that what you'd really like is a giant right-wing daisy chain that just happens to also consist of OSC fans.
That is what I am saying. You might not like the concept as I am not surprised, but I do. And there is plenty for like-minded individuals to talk about. For your information, although not surprising because of your own pre-concieved notions, I agree with a lot of OSCs "state-sponsored socialism" as long as it was under terms that he has outlined. Its called that little understood "Christian Socialism" and is not a new idea.
Posted by Roseauthor (Member # 148) on :
Well, being the queen of lurking and rarely posting throughout the years, I have to say, TomDavidson hasn't ran me off.
I may not always agree with things said by him and/or many others-I've even gotten disgusted many times. However, disagreeing with a person doesn't make me hate a person, or even run me off.
OH, and thank you for that nice msg to all us Lurkers, Tom!
I don't post often because I have to work a lot, I have 5 kids, a marriage, a pool and yard that requires constant upkeep, a home, and I write a few articles on occassion. I can't follow every thread! The fact that Mr. Card actually makes time to respond in this forum is amazing. And yes Tom, I remember when we never saw a single post by OSC!
I don't think this site sucks now. I think it goes through cycles.
Yes, Tom has the ability to piss people off-LIKEWISE, so do many of Hatrackers!!!! He's not alone! Hell, I'm sure I pissed people off on here and on Ornery in the earlier years.
I suggest that when/if you get WAY too emotionally connected to a BBS group, to take some time off (apprx 6 months), then come back when you've emotionally disconnected from situations, topics, people.. etc. It will keep you from losing your mind! (I use to run BBS's so I've had to find a survival mechanism-escape works!) (note: most bbs's become addictive and forcing yourself to stay away, not read, not just 'check out the site' is difficult. First step: Admitting you have the addiction!)
Ok.. that's the 2 cents of the lurker.
Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
I think, not that anyone here cares, that this thread should be moved to Orney.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Occasional, people who are primarily here to appreciate OSC can just stick to this folder. There is the small issue that they have to stay someone on topic. Which I think is just fine. I was pointing out that the last time Card tried to uplift the tone at hatrack by creating another site, he just wound up with bills for two sites. I could be wrong. Maybe the tone at hatrack improved for a while, and maybe it is still nowhere near as bad as it was. I guess I should thank my lucky stars that I wasn't shrunk into a raisin previously.
Was it really 4 years ago that Survivor left Ornery? Because I don't see how it could have been as many as 3. As for those who say we are calling for the shut down of hatrack, I rather believe the suggestion is something different, like paid participation or some other qualification process. Survivor has promulgated for me his vision of the ideal forum before, but I didn't really agree because I'm not much good with a broadsword Um, anyway I would be unlikely to present it right even if I tried. What were you proposing?
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
I was just proposing a site INDEPENDENT of OSC, but with the two purposes of existance previously listed. I have personally given up changing this place and want only to found or have founded a new place. There is nothing I am asking OSC to do with his site or another. As I have said more than once, it is a matter of finding someone else who has the time and financial means to set up what I have proposed.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
For about a hundred bucks a year, you could start a forum pretty easily.
Until it got super popular and too big for a shared hosting solution.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
If only I had a hundred bucks a year to spend.
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
quote: And if any of you are aspiring writers or just want to improve your craft, feel free to read my posts in the writers forum. But if you aren't, then do us a favor and stay the hell out.
However, like I said, this thread isn't about anything other than what OSC is going to do about this forum. The attempt to derail the topic is expected, particularly since nobody seems to even know anything about the actual topic. But I would be lying if I said it were appreciated. I don't need more evidence of just how sick this place has become, I already know that.
If my opposition helps convince Card that this forum really is unalterably hostile to his actual fans, then that's all to the good. I just don't think it's really necessary. The rest of the forum contains plenty of evidence, thank-you0-all-ever-so-much.
Being an "actual fan" I feel the need to tell you that it's only NOW that I feel this "unalterable hostility" and it's coming from you. I even think that you being on OSC's "side" here is not a good thing for him.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Occasional, I have to thank you for explaining something that I had never understood before. It had never occurred to me, since in my mind, OSC is classified as “famous author” rather than “political commentator,” that anyone would come to his fan-site expecting to find people who agree with his political views rather than fans of his books. So when you and others talked about the site being hijacked I had no clue what you could possibly mean. But I can see where, if you expected the forum to be made up of people who agreed with OSC’s essays it must seem like it’s been taken over by folks who don’t belong. So thank you for that bit of clarification.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
The problem with Occasional's idea is that people that want to find out more about Card and perhaps find a community of others who admire his work will tend to look here. It does happen to be his official site, after all.
I notice that some people have claimed to be "actual fans" of OSC. I could claim to be an grand multipara, but that wouldn't make it so.
As for my "unalterable hostility", I don't notice those that feel it doing much to try and alter it. You can, you know. I'll leave discovery of particular methods to you. You can get a few hints from looking at my Ornery posts.
But that isn't really the point. Like I said, I'm just here to see if Card is ready to consider some serious changes in how this forum is run. Changes that would be more in line with the stated and implicit purposes of the forum. As long as I'm here, I'll advocate change, because it seems desireable to me. If it turns out that Card really wants to continue this sort of thing, I'll go away again.
Card, believe me when I say that there are many people that really do respect you and your ideas, even when we disagree with them. Not all of them want to become writers, so they would welcome a chance to have a community here. Heck, I would welcome that. If you simply don't want to put in the time to foster that community, then that's okay. But don't imagine we don't exist, okay?
I know that you have your own reasons for putting up with these forums as they currently exist. I'm not optimistic about how well they really serve your goals, but I won't despise you for trying to deal with the reality you see.
I just want to say, there are other realities, and you should trust in them more. Even though I can only speak for myself, there must be other witnesses that can affirm it.
Nature made me an enemy to you and your kind, but love has made us brothers. I hope you can believe that, and trust me even though of myself I can promise nothing.
If you choose to pursue another path, I hope that your ideals in doing so will bear true fruit. You know what humans are, and I admire your commitment to finding a way to transcend that, even if I cannot share it. If we must part ways on this, remember that it is the path you've freely chosen because of your faith. Do not become discouraged. We'll be there for you, to see you succeed or to bear you up when the path is hard.
I have no authority in this world other than this, my existence. But I do exist. I am real. Flawed? perhaps a little. Scarred? more than you know. But I am not an illusion. Nor are the things of which I speak.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Not all of them want to become writers, so they would welcome a chance to have a community here.
I'm not sure I understand this sentence. Are you saying that those people who want to become writers -- like, say, OlavMah or ScottR -- don't welcome the chance to have a community here?
quote: Nature made me an enemy to you and your kind, but love has made us brothers.
I'm going to try this line on my boss tomorrow. I'll let you know what happens.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I don't understand the not human thing. Last time I pricked you, you bled dude.
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
I LOVE this place!!! Wouldn't trade it for anything. I'm not out of line for enjoying this debate am I?
A community is made up of individuals. Is it possible to change a community other than by either changing individuals or changing the individuals?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, Survivor.
Are you suggesting that this forum be some sort of shrine? Where we chant OSCisgreatOHM . . . OSCisgreatOHM . . . OSCisgreatOHM . . . ? And manned by Keepers of the Flame?
Don't get me wrong. I think the occasional thread like that (and we do have them) is great. But I hope that this forum is more than that. And it has been my impression that the Cards prefer that it be more than that.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
I came to this site because of how much I loved Card's books. I lurked for a long time, mostly because I was only interested in news about Card and any upcoming books or projects. Then I started getting drawn into the community. I thought it was wonderful how many different ideas, opinions, and beliefs were shared amongst this community.
I have learned so much about different people's perspectives and ideas on life. Naturally this diversity creates a lot of contrasts in opinions. I have not found one person with whom I can say I agree with entirely, and I don't ever expect to either. But that is what makes Hatrack so great. I didn't come here to reaffirm all of my own opinions. I don't expect or want to read comments that perfectly mirror my own convictions in life. What would be the point of it? Instead I enjoy the interesting personalities of all the people here.
Inevitably differences are going to arise. People have offended me. I'm sure I've offended people myself. One person even stated that he looked forward to the time when people like me no longer exist. I had every right to be offended. Normally I would have been very offended, but I decided that as long as I was happy with my life, it didn't really matter to me whether he agreed with me or not. That person hasn't been around lately, and although he has never once said a kind word to me, I find that I have been missing his presence on this forum. I asked myself why I would miss this person, and I think the answer is because I'm not here to look for people that will pat me on the back or acknowledge and commend my every idea. I'm here because of all the ways this community has enlightened me by means of those disagreements and arguments.
If this site were strictly about honoring Card's every word, or talking about all the ways in which we could agree with him, I would leave in a heartbeat. I love Card and the things that he's done. I don't agree with all of his ideas, but that does not diminish my respect for him. But I would not want to be in a place that is limited to strictly praising OSC, and I don't think that's what Card wants either.
Yes, we should all try to be respectful to others. Is that always going to happen? Of course not. The truth is, anything you do is bound to offend someone. And if you're going to let a disrespectful comment drive you away from this forum, then I think you've got a lot to learn about life in the real world. Because that's reality. Leave here and you'll find the same (but probably worse) attitudes and methods of interaction in your coworkers, schoolmates, peers, religious community, political party, and even family. That's life. The sooner your realize that the better off you'll be.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I once felt as you do, camus, but I'm worn out, which is why I won't be posting to the BFFAC anymore. And, it's sometimes the people most like me that really push my buttons.
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
"That person hasn't been around lately, and although he has never once said a kind word to me, I find that I have been missing his presence on this forum."
Is it KoM? 'Cause I miss him!
"If this site were strictly about honoring Card's every word, or talking about all the ways in which we could agree with him, I would leave in a heartbeat. I love Card and the things that he's done. I don't agree with all of his ideas, but that does not diminish my respect for him. But I would not want to be in a place that is limited to strictly praising OSC, and I don't think that's what Card wants either."
Thank you for putting the thoughts that were in my head into your post. Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
Ah, the straw man, all ready to be burned.
Or do you really claim to not see?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
It is easier to call something a straw man rather than to actually refute it, isn't it Survivor?
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Watch out Dag, you are treading close to where you'll be lumped in with the rest of us Hatrack Liberal Cabal members...
-Bok
Posted by chuck7 (Member # 8645) on :
UPDATE I am leaving my comments below in tact because I believe that to do other wise would be dishonest of me. What I say in the first paragraph below is completely unjustified, and I have no excuse for it. Survivor, I apologize for what I said. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Survivor, You strike me as the kind of person who I usually end up behind in the checkout line. You see a bottle of coke and start to rant to anyone who will make eye contact with you about some vague incomprehensible evil that is going on. My advice, back away from this person slowly, and refuse to make eye contact. What arrogance you have to think that Card needs your help in deciding what to do with the forums. So far, I have not seen a public proclamation from him soliciting advice.
By and large, every forum I have ever seen on any web site that allows public comment comes down to the same thing. There will be a core group of people who post often and stay for ever. There will be new people who come in from time to time who are fans of the particular subject the forum is about. Then there will be trolls the come in simply to try to start a fire. ALL of these people have opinions, and MOST of them deserve respect. Just because someone posts an opinion you don’t like, is no reason for you to call for the dismantling of a forum you have absolutely no authority over. Your recourse is to leave. You keep saying you will leave, but you keep not leaving.
My guess would be that OCS expects what goes on here. One of the things I love about this site are his essays. I tend to agree with a lot of what he says, but that’s not what make it unique. The reason his writings here are unique is that he is brutally honest. He doesn’t pull punches, and he doesn’t spend a lot of time sugar coating things. I find this extremely refreshing. My experience is that anyone with a reasonable amount of intelligence that posts the way Card does knows exactly what they will be in for. Some people will hate you, some people will love you, and you must judge all equally on their merits.
[ October 04, 2005, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: chuck7 ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
chuck7, I'm not a huge fan of the guy myself, but he doesn't deserve the insults. Would you please consider editing your post to tone them down or remove them? IMO, the second and third paragraphs of what you wrote adequately convey your point.
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
Survivor, you may want to be wary of saying " This is why I come to Hatrack, so therefore Hatrack should be like this. I don't find it quite sensible to place value on a community based solely on what it does for you. It is what it is. It may not fill your needs or meet your expectations, but that wouldn't justify changing it or taking it away from those who find it meets their needs. The only person who really has any legitimate right to say it should be one thing or another is Card himself. For the rest of us, it is what we make it. It is . . . us.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
quote:This place attracts a large number of intelligent, literate, sensitive, and otherwise wonderful people. But most of them don't stay. And I know why. I imagine that those of you that caused them to leave, often one by one, sometimes a dozen at a time, I can hardly imagine you're utterly ignorant of why they feel unwelcome on this forum. And yet, experience tells me that at least some of you just don't realize it at all.
I argued with the Secret Liberal Cabal many times during my tenure here. But if there had been more people like Tom Davidson, I probably would've stayed longer.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
I'm sorry, but I have to laugh.
That doesn't mean that I'm not serious, but some of these last posts are just too funny.
All laughter aside, I'll stand by what I've said.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
When it was written about not seeking the mote that is in another's eye because we have a beam in our own, which comes first? Do we notice the mote only because we ourselves have a beam or do we develop a beam from looking at others motes? I'm inclined to think the latter due to the writing that if the eye is single to the glory of God, the whole body shall be filled with light. Where we turn our eye our nature follows.
Though I suppose that when I allow myself to be lead by nature, my nature dictates the direction of my eye. Anyway, that's why I try awful hard not to point up straw man arguments. Or, at least I know that when I find myself wanting to point them up I need to change direction.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Nature made me an enemy to you and your kind, but love has made us brothers.
This line is priceless.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*waves* at Richard. Wondered why you dropped off the face of the earth after Kama Con!
AJ
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I'm sorry, but I have to laugh. That doesn't mean that I'm not serious, but some of these last posts are just too funny.
And now we move to the smug condescension portion of the program.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I know you are, but what am I- infinity Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
Good God! Im away from hatrack for a couple months and when I come back people want to shut it down!
This is one of the cleanest most polite forums that I have ever found. To say people here are abusive and cruel to OSC is just silly. The majority here love OSC's works and admire the man. I think this whole thread is the silliest thing I have ever heard. Shut down Hatrack? sheesh...
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Mmmm, mug condensation....
-Bok
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
I sense several thread derailments coming...Bring it on!
Don't you hate waking up in the morning with that dragon breath? P.U.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
No, we're already way past condescension. Didn't you read the first post? Years past, actually.
As for Kama Con...if it was the one in Provo, I'd already dropped out by then. Not off the face of the Earth, unfortunately. I'm still around, just not on this side of Hatrack so often. Though only my posts on this thread are still here, a lot of my posts on Ornery are still there, though the earliest ones seem to be gone.
As for the straw man argument...anyone that has bothered to know me or even read my posts here knows that I don't advocate mindless conformity. What is my proposal other than a rejection of the status quo, based on my disagreement with Card on this topic? That's what makes it so funny, it would be just as valid for any of you to suggest that I'm attacking Card just the way TomD did as to suggest that I'm advocating that nobody ever be allowed to criticize him.
Actually, that would make a much better straw man, because it would double as an argument by analogy, "if it's okay for you to do this, then it was okay for TomD to do that." In fact, the parallel runs deeper than you probably know or guess.
Actually, I took a look over at the "Self Sustaining Hatrack" thread a bit ago, and I have to say that I admire the solution they came up with there. Certainly, the next time I buy a book or recommend that somebody else buys one, I'm going to use those links. But I don't think that goes far enough. For one thing, it's temporary. That thread will eventually die like any other, and nothing will have changed except for a few commercial links which allow members to contribute a little something to this site...if they know to think of them that way. Which is the other problem, making the site seem more commercial actually hurts its purpose, particularly if it seems to people that Card has no personal investment in the content or community of the forum.
Overall I think that the benefit of allowing members to contribute outweighs any negative impact, but the fact is that Card doesn't feel comfortable coming here anymore. And I can say with some confidence that he'd feel even less comfortable coming here anonymously, not just because it's somewhat against his character to do so but because people that really agree with Card about too many things aren't very welcome here.
TomD, since this sort of thing is his actual job, should understand how wrong that is more than anyone else. I won't say that he does, partly because I think I understand it pretty well myself and it isn't fair to expect everyone that does a job to have all possible insights into why that job is important. Besides, I think that all of you should be able to understand it even without it being your job. This is Card's site, he's put a lot into it. He wants to enjoy it, as well as promoting his own work. He's not selfish enough to kick us out just because he's not having fun here anymore...but I think that he should be.
For the sake of those of us who would feel a lot more comfortable here if it were the kind of place Card could enjoy, whether or not he has the time to enjoy it with us. I know he thinks we aren't many. In terms of raw percentages of the population at large, he's probably right. But enough to populate a lively forum, and fill it with diverse viewpoints, even some like mine? I say there are that many, and more.
True, I say it of myself. Only Card can perform this experiment. And it is a difficult thing, to change the course of a forum at this stage of it's evolution. It's very much like killing the old forum and starting almost from scratch, with the bloody carcass right there to remind everyone of your admitted failure.
Only someone really fond of killing would be inclined to do it, and Card isn't, despite the kinds of stories he writes. I don't really think that he will. I can't even say that I'm certain he should. I only know that I would. It is a basic truth ingrained in me from childhood, to improve your home, you have to tear it up first. I just want Card to feel at home here, even if he rarely has time.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:but because people that really agree with Card about too many things aren't very welcome here.
Stop saying this, for goodness sake.
I really agree with Card about a great many things, and I feel very welcome here.
At least qualify your statement. You don't feel that way, and you believe it is because you agree with Card about too many things. I'm sure there are others. But it's not universal.
The one thing I see in common amongst most of the objections to your posts is that you are deigning to define what it means to be a real OSC fan. ("I notice that some people have claimed to be 'actual fans' of OSC. I could claim to be an grand multipara, but that wouldn't make it so.")
You speak for exactly one OSC fan. You.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*rotfl* Survivor, you were *not* the Richard that I was saying hi to. Kama Con, at the time, was the largest gathering of jatraqueros since Ender Con. I don't think BobNDana Con eclipsed the number of jatraqueros gathered, though it may have, we tallied it somewhere. I don't even remember if the total number of jatraqueros at Kama Con was 40 or 60 and I planned the darn thing.
AJ
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: TomD, since this sort of thing is his actual job, should understand how wrong that is more than anyone else.
More relevant to this situation than my choice of career are the conversations I've had with the other people involved. You have been privy, to my knowledge, to surprisingly few of them. Rest assured that I'm fairly confident my decisions are not contrary to the wishes of the administration.
quote: Only someone really fond of killing would be inclined to do it, and Card isn't, despite the kinds of stories he writes....I only know that I would.
This is why we had that little conversation on Ornery, you'll recall.
Posted by MoralDK (Member # 8395) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: You speak for exactly one OSC fan. You.
Two actually.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
You might agree with him, but unless you two decided in advance that he would speak for you, he's speaking for one.
You can certainly agree with him. Nothing I've said challenges that.
Unlike him, I haven't decided that there's only one for a fan of OSC to act and speak.
Posted by MoralDK (Member # 8395) on :
Only on this part:
quote:but because people that really agree with Card about too many things aren't very welcome here.
Ornery has a much better balance. This place is dominated by a liberal mindset.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Wow. Ornery seems far more hostile to OSC to me.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
quote: Ornery has a much better balance. This place is dominated by a liberal mindset.
Why does it matter? Isn't diversity of opinion a good thing?? Do you want the two places to be identical? What was the point in having them separate then?
AJ- a fiscal conservative
Posted by DavidGill (Member # 8166) on :
It's dead, Jim.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Ornery has a much better balance. This place is dominated by a liberal mindset.
If by that you mean a tendency towards mutual respect, literacy, and a fondness for human life, I agree.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
Dagonee is right. I only claim to speak for myself. I think I've been fairly clear on that point, if anyone has actually been reading my posts. The problem here is that too many of you don't realize what a strong endorsement of my opinions that is;)
More seriously, I think Card himself has clearly stated that he doesn't feel welcome here. I know other fans that have said the same, both to me and...in my presence. Such as it is.
Now, TomD seems to be claiming that Card didn't really mean any such thing, and has told him so. I frankly doubt this, but even if it is true that doesn't change my position. It just means that Card isn't going to take any action based on my posting this, so there is no need for all of you to get upset. What I think Card should do and what he actually does are often two very different things.
Really, think about this for a moment. Either I'm likely to succeed, with my posts, in persuading Card to make some radical change, or I am not. In either case, do you think that your responses to my suggestions are helping your case? If I've really got that much influence with Card, how does treating my comments with such contempt make you look in his eyes? If I have no such influence (and the truth is that I don't even claim it), then what motive do you have for treating my dissent from your opinion as though it were dangerous to you?
I think that many people have said that, and said it better, but it remains true nonetheless.
However, if one of the administrators chooses to reprimand me for this topic, then I will accept that judgement, even if I disagree with it. To do otherwise would be exactly the kind of behavior I came here to decry.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: what motive do you have for treating my dissent from your opinion as though it were dangerous to you?
I can't speak for the other people on this thread. Perhaps some of them are indeed afraid that Card's going to take your advice and turn this place into a rubber-stamp bootlicking camp. I doubt it, though.
Survivor, I'm not threatened by you. I'm saddened by you. I think you're very sick and have found ways to enable and justify your sickness to yourself, and hope that you someday decide to confront that illness rather than glorify it. My hope is that in replying to your posts, rather than allowing them to fade into the ether, I can help you recognize that you need some assistance. I've tried discussing this in private. I've tried arguing this point with you. Sadly, neither of those things have worked.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
When have we discussed this in private? And what point are you talking about now?
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
Not being coy, by the way. I'm just not clear on it. If you ever contacted me privately, it must have been years ago, over something that people at Ornery were accusing you of having done.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
No, wait, I'm sorry. I remember that you emailed me to apologize for forcing me to admit that I'm autistic. It isn't a secret, by the way, it just isn't the way I choose to define myself. I don't consider it a disability, and you think there's something wrong with that...like there was some kind of treatment anyway. Whatever.
Posted by Stark (Member # 6831) on :
I've seen some bad cases of internet pms on various forums and this is hardly different. I'm not a hardcore regular here so maybe I can't appreciate the situation but it's nothing that should be taken so seriously.
I've been critical of Card before, I even suggested that he might not be entirely genuine with his political writings since they differ from his literary work to the point of being contradictory (in my opinion). Everyone here took it in stride and we had a good debate about it.
Posted by chuck7 (Member # 8645) on :
Survivor, You keep presenting your arguments in the context of how “Card feels” or what “Card thinks”. If you have a relationship with Card that makes you privy to his feelings or thoughts, please state that relationship directly. If you are going based upon some previous writings he has posted here or elsewhere, please provide the links to such postings for all to see.
If however, you are merely presenting how YOU THINK he feels, please be more specific. As it is, it looks like you are presenting your opinions in ways that you then try to falsely tie to Card’s own opinions. This is disingenuous at best.
If you are planning on claming in your next post that you have clearly stated all that all of your opinions are yours, and no one else’s, please review the fallowing quotes from YOUR posts.
“…but the fact is that Card doesn't feel comfortable coming here anymore” Please provide your source for this statement.
“And I can say with some confidence that he'd feel even less comfortable coming here anonymously…” What do you base this “confidence” on?
“This is Card's site, he's put a lot into it. He wants to enjoy it…” Again, what source are you using to determine how much “Joy” Card want’s from this site?
I have no opinion in regard to what Card does or does not want from this site. Mainly because I have no personal relationship with the man. I refuse to fall into the trap of assuming motivations and personal feelings for another person based upon the very limited relationship of fiction and an occasional forum post. So, the question is, do you have real and VALID sources for your statements regarding how Card feels, or are you simply so convinced of the rightness of your own arguments that you don’t see how Card could feel any other way?
As far as I am concerned, until you answer these questions, you are nothing but a run of the mill forum troll looking to start a fight.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:“…but the fact is that Card doesn't feel comfortable coming here anymore” Please provide your source for this statement.
To be fair, this comes from the thread on the other side about the new web site, which I won't link to.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
Actually that thread was about cheese whiz and chips, not OSC Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
You can find Card's posts here. And the rumor that Card is going to ban himself is just that, a rumor, as far as I know. Clarifying that point was part of the major reason I started this thread, as you'd know if you were paying attention.
The other part has to do with my shock at the insensitivity displayed by the majority of the forum over this incident.
I'm not going to make a habit of this sort of stupidity, if anyone really wants to know what I've said they can find it pretty darn easily, after all. But for chuck's benefit:
quote:“…but the fact is that Card doesn't feel comfortable coming here anymore” Please provide your source for this statement.
Please read Card's most recent comments. They clearly indicated some measure of discomfort.
quote:What do you base this “confidence” on?
Like I said, this is my confidence, the confidence I feel when making statements of myself.
quote:Again, what source are you using to determine how much “Joy” Card want’s from this site?
This is virtually a rephrase of the first question, and it has the same answer. The only time Card expressed having a good feeling there, he was apparently being sarcastic. Or rather, I don't think that the "warm all over" feeling he mentions was joy, at any rate. I'm thinking that however much joy he wants from this site, that was less. By a lot.
Okay, so now I've done what Dagonee, for whatever reason, would not. She has her reasons, and I have mine. They differ quite a bit, and I will say that she posted on the Sustaining Hatrack thread in support of helping out. If any of you want to argue with me, why not put your posts there? I've no objection to making a small contribution to our host.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Okay, so now I've done what Dagonee, for whatever reason, would not.
What exactly have you done that I would not?
quote:She has her reasons, and I have mine. They differ quite a bit, and I will say that she posted on the Sustaining Hatrack thread in support of helping out. If any of you want to argue with me, why not put your posts there? I've no objection to making a small contribution to our host.
Small aside, I'm a guy. But even taking the gender confusion into account, I have no idea what you are saying here.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
Ah crap. If you're a guy don't end your name with two e's. And no, I don't want to know why.
You didn't want to link to the posts that lead to this discussion. I don't know why not, you're posting here, after all. This thread doesn't look too flattering of these forums either. That is, by and large, not my fault. If the first page had been full of posts from people saying how terrible they felt about the problem, that would be different.
I feel terrible about the problem. That's why I posted. If you can't tell I feel crappy about what happened from every post I've made (except the one where people just were starting to make me laugh), then I'll say it outright in no uncertain terms. I feel terrible, sort of sick like a stomach flu (its not impossible I have one either, but it's activated by even thinking about what happened on this forum).
And keep in mind, I wasn't even here at the time. I haven't posted on these forums in years because I had no interest...but I didn't know things would go this far. When someone asked why I wasn't contributing to make this forum a better place all along instead of coming in here all enraged over things...it cut me. I'm one of those people that said, "eh, Card seems to like things that way here, I'll go somewhere else."
Well if Card tells me that's the case, I'm more than willing to believe him. But I'm not going to assume that he's happy with the way things have gone, not after what happened here. I don't see how anyone can assume such a thing. Various people have criticized my lack of empathy, and the truth is I don't have an abundance of the stuff.
So how come all of you have so much less?
Posted by chuck7 (Member # 8645) on :
Survivor, I stand completely corrected. I still do not know if I agree with the idea of tearing the forums down, but I can now see the reasoning and logic behind your opinion. I would not blame Card at all if he did so. Thank you for providing the links that lead me to this.
I generally feel that public forums are a place for people to communicate openly and honestly with each other. This includes the occasional barb or criticism. However, when you deeply hurt or offend the owner and host of a particular forum, you are obligated to either leave, or post a sincere apology. Not an apology with caveats, not an apology with context. I have not read far enough to see if Tom Davidson ever did this. All I have seen so far are several half hearted attempts at being the victim and rationalizations.
So survivor, I sincerely apologize to you for the comments I made comparing you to a nut job in a checkout line. The opinion I had of you at the time was completely unjustified. All of your comments I have read are logical, and the error was mine in not putting out the effort to fully understand the context of this thread.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:So how come all of you have so much less?
You are not qualified to judge that. I, for one, would say that it is my empathy that keeps me from thinking OSC's reaction to this was entirely appropriate.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Survivor, if you haven't noticed your comments are piontless toward the people you intend to influence. OSC is not going to change or get rid fo this place. The make up and character of the posters are not going to change either. I have tried and watched for several years to see something happen. Not that I won't continue to speak my mind when I have the chance.
My advice and request still stands. A person who agrees with us and has enough time and means needs to start a seperate and distinct Forum. I can't, but would if I could. If anyone is willing you can e-mail me through the profile image.
Now, I have thought of creating a Blog. That is easier and takes less time; and can even be free. But, it just doesn't have the interaction abilities that Forums have.
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
Survivor, I find myself almost always in disagreement with the liberal political posts here. And I add my 2 cents very timidly in fear of what others will say.
But your posts in this tread seem to have no other motive than to give OSC a reason to leave this forum or shut it down. I can't possibly see what shutting the forum down or driving OSC off would give you other than the satisfaction of taking something from someone else and stomping on it.
Because I like the forum, your desire to shut this place down makes me feel more threatened of you than *anyone* else here. And I'm suppose to be on your side.
[ October 04, 2005, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: human_2.0 ]
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
Thank you, chuck7 (though I itch to spell your name "correctly", with a capital letter and all). I do realize that the heat of my original post and the emotionalism of some of my other posts might make me seem a bit off-kilter. Though I can accept that, it is only because I was off-kilter that I posted here at all. But I'm glad to know that someone is willing to read and consider my arguments in spite of that.
Dagonee...I can't agree with your idea of empathy only for those in the wrong. But it is probably important, given the path in life you are determined to pursue, and I do believe that there is a need for those who will stand up for the moral minority. I just can't see the need when they are in the local majority. But that's just a disagreement between us.
Occasional, there are several sites like what you suggest. Hopefully you'll recieve an invite to one or more of them after mentioning that you'd appreciate such a place. But they are limited by necessary obscurity and other factors which would not apply to this site. I can understand your belief that this forum cannot be repaired, but I don't share it. I'm a hardcore machine cultist, I suppose. Experience has taught me that there are very few things that simply cannot be repaired.
human2.0...what can I say. You're already on my bad side
Okay, but Card has already left this site for the time being. I heard a rumor that he'd banned himself from ever coming back, that's why I came and looked the situation over. I know that he loves this forum a lot, he puts an enormous amount of energy into it even when he's not posting himself. So when I heard that he'd left it and might not want to ever return, I had to investigate the reason.
Simply put, I came here because I was surprised to hear that he'd left.
And I ask you, is it my posts that are giving Card a reason to shut this forum down? No, my posts are only pointing out that he already has ample reason to do so. I didn't provide those reasons. I'm saying that he has alternatives that I believe could really work to not only save what exists here that is good but make the community florish.
I will admit, some of the posts I've seen in this thread alone have given Card additional reasons to shut this forum down. But they weren't my posts. If I've given a reason for Card to tell me that I'm saying unecessary things, then I'm willing to hear that. But I don't think I'm stampeding him into anything. If anything, the things I've posted will make it easier for him to come back, if he so desires.
True, I don't actually care whether or not he comes back, only that he feel free do do so. If nothing is changed, I'll take my leave soon enough, whether or not he comes back. If things are changed...boy, would that be awkward. I'd probably switch to a different identity or something like that. By saying that I can claim nobody knows who is or isn't me, when actually I'll probably be taking long sabbaticals from the forum after lobbying to get it changed
Whatever. I'm not really worried about how changing this forum will affect my posting here. There are other ways for me to spend my time, probably other ways I should spend my time. But I felt very strongly that some things needed to be said. My personal convictions, eh? Not so convenient for everyone else sometimes. But that's why I said I'm posting here for my own reasons, on my own behalf, and my own authority.
I'm really not Card's keeper. But something in my heart tells me that wouldn't make a good enough excuse, should I fail to follow my conscience in this.
Besides, I've felt better about making these posts than I thought. I feel a sense of peace about it. You know, like something good happened. I don't know what that could have been, maybe nothing changed. Even if something I did seemed right to someone at the time, others will say later it was wrong. But some things don't change, and I've learned to trust them.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:I'm really not Card's keeper.
I thought love made you brothers
But yeah, now that we've reached the point where the whole incident that caused Card to leave becomes invisible, what more is there to do? Still there are newbies arriving every day hoping to ask him questions and get answers. What do we say?
Posted by MoralDK (Member # 8395) on :
That the community is more important than the Old Man?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
We say the same thing we said a year ago when those same newbies eventually figured out that it wasn't always possible to conjure him just by saying his name: E-mail him and ask him.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Oh, coordinate a massive spamming campaign, that'll help things a lot.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
What started this hole thing? what great and terrible thing was said that you would feel that the solution is to kill/change hatrack? And with as many posters and lurkers here and as many long term people as their is how can you say that this is not a flourishing community?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Oh, coordinate a massive spamming campaign, that'll help things a lot.
Card's preferred form of E-mail contact involves form submission. I'm pretty sure he doesn't consider fan mail spam. And he's always been pretty good about replying.
Posted by MoralDK (Member # 8395) on :
"You have an amazing capacity for self-deception." #6
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
Man, that was a pretty cool show. Wacky, but somehow just cool. At the end, I was left wondering whether his escape was real...and if so, so what?
If nothing else, this thread gave me a chance to go back and look at my Ornery days. Not all of them, a lot of the early posts have been swept into obscurity. But it was a fun trip down memory lane. I should probably send Card a note mentioning that I value the investment he's made, even though I have no use for some of the results.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
Anyway, as a solution to lots of people asking Card an annoying an personally painful question, why don't we just start a thread titled "Why Card doesn't post anymore" and explain everything there?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Cause none of us are entitled to answer that question. None of us are him, and only he knows the full reasons why he doesn't post (when he doesn't post, that is).
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
But he very clearly explained why he was leaving the forum, and it is also clearly something that was rather painful for him. Does it really seem like a good idea to suggest that people pester him about it in emails that he is obligated to check? We have his answer, and I think that it would save him quite a bit of grief if we didn't force him to reiterate it for everyone that happens to ask in the future.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
But he didn't ask us to save him. And we're not forcing him to reiterate anything. My main problem with most of what you've said throughout this thread is your clear belief that you're qualified and obligated to speak for people other than yourself.
quote:But he very clearly explained why he was leaving the forum
This is a misstatement, at best. Him saying he was leaving was a hypothetical statement. Not to say he hasn't left, just that you can't say whether he has or not, and you certainly can't say why he has or has not. That's something you seem to have trouble with.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
I didn't say he asked anyone to save him. And no, he could lie to anyone that asked about why he left, if he wanted to do that.
But I still don't think that it's a good thing for people to pester him about it when he clearly stated how he felt about the whole situation.
I wouldn't say that I'm qualified to speak for anyone else, but unfortunately for me, it does seem that I'm obligated.
It is obvious that Card hasn't really left the site. Someone is still paying the bills, and all efforts to that effect notwithstanding, it isn't any of us. But he certainly isn't posting right now, and if you look at his last several posts, the reason is fairly clear. Sure, he stated it as being a possibility...it seems to have become an accomplished fact since then, though.
Don't you think?
But then again, the reason I started this thread was to find out whether or not he's really left. Of course that means that I don't really know. But in the meantime, wouldn't it be irresponsible for us to tell anyone that asks about the situation to go bother Card?
Why would that be so very wrong? I'm not going to put words in his mouth or anything. I'm thinking of just linking the relevant posts in which he explains what he was thinking when he made his decision to stop posting.
Posted by trance (Member # 6623) on :
I'm sorry but I didn't read all the replies in this part of the forum but I do know the point it's trying to get out so I wanna say my two cents. If its already been said then that's great that someone agrees! Anyways, here I go. He's an author. Do you think he has time to post replies on this forum? Probably not. Yet he makes time meaning that the time comes from somewhere else. He's got a life like everyone else and its probably far more complex or busy than our sad little lives. The time he spends posting on this forum surly raises his publicity by a fraction but he obviously spends less time with his family and true friends. Or working on his current projects. Obviously he is trying to please his fans at some level cause he's not getting much credit for his appearances recently and its a shame. I can understand why'd he want to stop making frequent posts-it takes time! There's only twenty-four hours in a day and to a lot of people that is hardly enough. What I want to say is that I hope he stops posting so much because the people in his life need him more than we do. He's a great inspiration to everyone he incounters because of his great success and no doubt his faith and with all he does he's gotta need more time for himself or the things that bring joy to his life and I doubt feeding into everyone's curiosity and critisism makes him happy and jump with joy inside. I may be wrong about all of this but I believe that I'm dead on. I'm not half as busy as him and I still have to WORK to find time to post and I only post for curiosity. Blah. Anyways...that's my pennyful cents.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
Indeed. That's an excellent argument against telling everyone that asks about it to go ask Card. We have Card's reasons as posted on the forum, we have the time (since we're posting here after all), and I think that we (and here I take a small liberty) as the members of the community, have some responsibility to answer such a question.
Indeed, it would make a nice opening to a thread that collected Card's thoughts (as posted on the forums) on a number of subjects. His posts being rare as they are, I think such a project would have even more value.
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
I hate to say it but I agree with Survivor there. I think it would be nice if someone who has the time put together a thread with a lot of OSC posts in it. Does not matter if he is gone or not, still think it's a neat idea. "The collected wisdom of OSC" type of thing.
Survivor, maybe you have time for such a large project?
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
I doubt that it would be any good if I were the only one contributing. I have time to start it, though.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
By the way, anyone that wants to keep up the argument over Card leaving is free to post over in this thread. I thought that the whole subject was just beginning to bore everyone, but if not I'm happy to talk about it.
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Well, I don't worship Scott, nor do I suggest you worship him. I merely like him. And I've been known criticize him plenty. I don't agree with his politics. I don't always agree with his views on religion. He's offended other friends of mine in writer world with zingers that still sting years later.![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
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