Due to recent events, it seems that Card will not be posting very often on this board. Since many of the people that drop by here do so with at least some interest in seeing what he thinks about various subjects, it seems appropriate to provide a way for that information to remain current and accessible.
The very first place to look is in the list of Card's recent posts. This page, as the name sugggests, contains links to all of Card's most recent posts. If you're going to ask Card a question about recent events, try checking here first.
You can also use the forum's search function in combination with Card's username or user number to search for any posts by Card that mention particular words or phrases. This is a handy way to sort through his posts, of which there are probably about a thousand remaining on the board. His early posts, like all my early posts, are casualties of software upgrades. Such is life.
If you aren't having any luck, you can ask the existing members to link to a relevent post if they remember one. They might have more luck knowing what to look for, since they might have actually seen the post you're trying to find.
As a last resort, one can use the contact form for this site to send Card (or someone) an e-mail. However, there are certain questions that Card is probably tired of answering.
One particular example is the question that this entire thread might suggest. Namely, "Why doesn't Card post here anymore?" Card would probably really appreciate it if people didn't ask about that until he decides to say something else on the subject. And you don't need to ask, since now you know.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I miss Scott........
Posted by archon (Member # 8008) on :
It's unfortunate that this has happened because him posting with us was unique. I loved interacting with my favorite author. There'll always be bad eggs in any group who admires someone who tries to bring them down in an attempt to gain personal validation of some sort, and it sucks that it had to happen here, too. Fans are a weird sort of people.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
And they'll always be people who think they can somehow read other people's minds and make bad guesses about their motivations. It sucks that that happens here, too.
Not to mention the people who keep picking at it.
And picking at it.
And picking at it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I loved interacting with my favorite author.
All 31 posts worth, huh? Posted by DavidGill (Member # 8166) on :
It's *still* dead, Jim.
Posted by OSTY (Member # 1480) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote: I loved interacting with my favorite author.
All 31 posts worth, huh?
Tom was that comment even needed?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
No, it probably wasn't. But cut me a little slack: I've put up with some very thinly veiled crap on this thread without making any other complaint at all. And if we restricted people to posting only those things which were needed, this place would be awfully quiet.
That said, I've been trying to be more direct in my criticism and observations over the last few months. I tend to approach most things of that sort sideways, and perhaps my point gets lost more often than not as a consequence.
I shall be more direct. Allow me, then, to observe that archon, with all of his 31 posts and membership since May, is of course entitled to miss interacting with his favorite author. But I do indeed question, based solely upon his extremely limited familiarity with the people on this board, his ability to accurately discern the bad eggs -- if any -- from the good, or to guess at the motivations of any of the posters here.
Leaving that aside, I'd like to encourage Survivor's attempt to index and archive as many of Card's surviving posts as possible -- and wish him luck in that endeavor; I think it'd be a worthwhile resource for many fans, especially given that forum posts are not generally preserved for posterity. Since this is likely to require a lot of rather dull trawling, it occurs to me that asking for help from some of the really passionate fans over at P-Web couldn't hurt. They might even do something like this already.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Yeah, you folks tend to be deadly dull anyway, any greater lack of conflict would result in calling this place dead, however I suspect that the motivation is the same as anybody elses, time value, his words are gold and he cannot afford to spend them for free with impunity.
It seems to me that he tends to hang out at Hatrack when he has finished a product and wants feedback or just to take his mind off work until he can get back into it.
Of course he might also want to wonder why the tone is so liberal but in small doses I am sure he can take that.
We have his Essays and get to preveiw his novels, and that is extrodinary.
BC
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I've put up with some very thinly veiled crap
And chased off our favorite author and poster. So we’re supposed to feel sorry for you? Boo Hoo
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Anyone who honestly thinks I somehow chased Orson Scott Card off his own website(s) does the man a severe disservice, I believe.
And while I would hardly expect you to feel sorry for me -- not least because I don't feel all that bad -- I would prefer if you didn't speculate on matters about which you know next to nothing.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Yeh, Tom may be insufferable, but he has been around here for a while so I can hardly think he ran anyone off recently, they would have left long since.
BC
"Its Shake and Bake and I helped"
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Except that is tentamount to what he said.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Wow I went and read that mess, I am impressed, mostly because I have always found that Tom to be just this way, but I did not realize he was deliberately attacking OSC. It seems we have a critic in our midst, a frustrated individual who attacks creativity while designing shoes.
Hee Hee...
Hey I attack religion too! Sometimes...
BC
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I didn't realize I was deliberately attacking OSC, either. It came as a surprise to me.
Posted by Jeni (Member # 1454) on :
It's time to lay off, people. OSC is perfectly capable of defending himself. He doesn't need a group of overzealous fans attacking Tom at every chance.
Besides, do you really want this to be the first thing new people see when they come to the forum?
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
Firstly, it's pretty much entirely false to claim that Tom ran off OSC. What happened was Tom said some stuff he believed and OSC got mad at it - which has happened countless times between countless Hatrackers, usually unintentionally and for no real good reason. There's no reason to think this was anything more than that sort of disagreement.
Secondly, isn't it just speculation that this has anything to do with OSC not posting? OSC not posting is generally the norm here. There's nothing new about it. Even in the periods where he has posted with any frequency, those posts have been few and sporadic. The man has books to write... He may still be mad, or he might not be. There's certainly nothing rare about a Hatracker claiming he or she will never post here again, and then changing their mind days later.
[ October 09, 2005, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
It seemed extremely obvious to me that your posts, Tom, could be offensive. But I tend to always read into that sort of thing to make sure I, myself, am not being offensive.
Posted by MoralDK (Member # 8395) on :
I bet OSC has come to accept Tom. But I would guess that it's really all of you sheep who support Tom that really saddens him.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: Firstly, it's pretty much entirely false to claim that Tom ran off OSC.
Well, let’s look at the facts…….
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card:
But Tom Davidson made it personal months ago, with prickly, nasty little posts about how I was neglecting him. He made it a project to goad me then. It didn't work. So he moved on to attacking my religious faith and now to attacking my fledgling commercial enterprise. Now he has a personal relationship with me, as he was demanding all those months ago. ……….
Well, relax. I'm certainly not banning Tom Davidson. It's obvious he has an intensely loyal following. The Hatrack community has, as I intended, a life of its own; but I'm obviously NOT a pillar of it and ...
I think I'll just ban myself and go back to never visiting this site. Then everybody will have the same relationship with me: none. And I'll get a lot more work done.
So tell me again why isn’t not Tom’s fault that Scott isn’t around? I hardly think there’s much in the way of speculation here.
Yes newbie’s will see this and wonder what is going on. But Hatrack seems to be pretty good at chasing people off if you don’t like their opinions. And yes, Scott can defend himself. But I suspect that he’d enjoy it a bit if more of his supposed fans defended him. And not to belittle the point, but he’s not coming around. So….. when someone asks why Scott isn’t posting anymore it is a fact that Tom drove him off. To bad it wasn’t the other way around.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
One tip, Survivor: As I'm sure you're aware, every once and a while the forum software is updated, rendering all links 404'd. For longevity's sake, I recommend actually quoting any posts you really want to survive in this thread, in addition to linking them.
If this thread actually follows the path you set out for it, and the peanut gallery can stay focused, I think this thread would be worth a sticky. Hopefully.
EDIT: And Jay, there's about nineteen threads rehashing the whole thing. Not only are your statements totally indefensible, but also unoriginal. Can't we go to one of the other threads with the argument?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:But I would guess that it's really all of you sheep who support Tom that really saddens him.
You're right, we must be dumb animals who follow others blindly if we don't agree with your interpretation of what happened.
Can you people really not see that by demonizing people who disagree with you and attributing base motives to them you are acting far less collegial than anything Tom may have done?
quote:So tell me again why isn’t not Tom’s fault that Scott isn’t around? I hardly think there’s much in the way of speculation here.
Because OSC is a grown man who is responsible for his own actions. If he chooses not to post here, he is the one responsible for that, not Tom. Especially if he chooses to frame disagreement with him about this issue as "loyalty" to Tom and to attempt to force a false dichotomy on us: either we condemn Tom's method of criticizing the web site or OSC can't be a pillar of the Hatrack community.
It's not something he would let one of his characters do without having someone in the story comment on it.
quote:But Hatrack seems to be pretty good at chasing people off if you don’t like their opinions.
Please. I have some opinions that are intensely unpopular here and I haven't been chased off.
No one who attempts to conform to the basic rules of civil discourse is ever "chased off" here. Even people who are continually called on their discourtesy seem to feel comfortable sticking around.
Posted by MoralDK (Member # 8395) on :
People are chased off. The methods just seem normal to you perhaps.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
Jay, just because someone gets mad at something you say doesn't mean you ran them off. Tom has not been any more harsh on OSC than most Hatrackers are on one another, and that really is not that harsh in comparison to what is said other places on the internet, including OSC's own articles. Even you, Jay, have said worse things to people than he has - including in your most recent post above this one.
There is no "fact" that Tom drove anyone off. The fact is that OSC got mad at criticism from Tom. If he left that was his own choice, and I'd suspect it was more than a bit of an overreaction. But, again, it's also fairly common for Hatrackers to claim they are leaving only to cool off and eventually come back. And it's also fairly common for OSC simply not to post here, because he has things to do.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:People are chased off. The methods just seem normal to you perhaps.
How would you classify calling people "sheep" on the "chasing people off" scale?
Posted by MoralDK (Member # 8395) on :
Mob mentality is not that complex. But harder to control than most realize.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
At the time of viewing, Tom's post count is a palindrome.
Eh, whatever.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
This is one of my favorite OSC posts. It is from Pop's first landmark:
quote:Posted by OrsonScottCard on July 28, 2002 12:13 AM:
"focusing on the negative things" - that's what makes good stories. If you focus on good things you did, that's bragging. If you focus on good things that happened to you, it makes us resent you, not love you <grin>. But including the bad with the good gives it drama, makes it matter. I know you weren't doing art, since you didn't make this stuff up. But you WERE doing art, because you were telling a story to an audience, and selecting what to leave in and what to leave out. And I envy the achievement - the compression, and yet the fulness. Feels like "A Life" and not just a post. Thank you for letting us read it. We already feel like we know you, because we know what you do and say (i.e., the romantic hero). But introducing past and motive etc. makes us feel that we know you far better, even though of course (it is the human tragedy) we never truly KNOW anyone at all. Yet it is thrilling and satisfying to feel that we have been brought that much closer to the impossible goal, and you gave that to us. And if that isn't the most pretentious response imaginable to an utterly unpretentious and honest selfstory then I will have to turn in my M.A. and admit to failure as a post-academic.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
How...fraught.
Tom, aren't you the one that always makes fun of people that think post count is so important?
Look, I don't believe that Card is incapable of expressing himself very clearly. And I think it's silly to pretend that he didn't express his reasons for not really participating around here.
But...he hasn't chosen to do anything more drastic than just stating his reasons and then leaving it alone.
I just surveyed a similar situation in real life, meaning done to a valuable physical property rather than an author's internet site. It saddened and rather disgusted me. I feel the desire to fix that place, just as I would like to see something done about this forum. But that would go beyond the mark. I did what I was called on to do, and I'll do more when that is needed.
For now, I think it's enough that there be a few threads on this board that are actually for Card's fans. I'm okay with this being one of them, if that happens. And if certain people want to turn it into another apology for certain persons that suggested they would leave this forum if their presence were really making Card uncomfortable here...I'd find that interesting in it's own way.
By the way, Card, you must now admit utter failure as a post-academic Don't worry, I'll be forced to post a landmark sooner or later at this rate, and it won't just be my failure as a post-academic that will be on display.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:For now, I think it's enough that there be a few threads on this board that are actually for Card's fans. I'm okay with this being one of them, if that happens. And if certain people want to turn it into another apology for certain persons that suggested they would leave this forum if their presence were really making Card uncomfortable here...I'd find that interesting in it's own way.
But what do you think about the fact that it only took 3 posts to turn this into another thread to insult people who don't treat OSC the way some people think they should?
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
Isn't it time to let this lie? As much as I enjoy attacking Tom , and deifying OSC , is there anything left worth saying that hasn't already been said and said and said? Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
As far as the original topic goes, I agree that some sort of archive of significant OSC posts would be a good idea. Perhaps the actual topic could be in the form of a locked sticky, and we could use a separate thread to discuss what should go into the topic. After we've decided on something, a mod can always add it to th esticky. That way we can ensure that the thread doesn't get offtrack the way this one has.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
You all are beating a dead dog. The debating over who is responsible for the potential and permanent loss over the founder of this site will not achieve anything. I.E. shut up about it and go on about your business. If something is going to happen it will happen.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Every time I try to stop talking about it, someone insults me.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
*pokes out tongue at Dagonee*
Nyah nyah nyah!
Just thought I'd add to the dog-pile.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
Actually, I suspect debating the issue more would achieve quite a bit. I think people tend to tire of talking about stuff long before that stuff is really understood as well as it could be. It's like when a disaster occurs and politicians want to avoid discussing their mistakes, rather than learning what they can to prevent it next time. The initial yelling and arguing about something like this ends up a total waste if you just cut it off with people mad at one another, rather than following through with it and learning what is to be learned from it.
If many people are still thinking Tom ran OSC off, I think there is more to be said - because most of us post in the manner that Tom does towards other Hatrackers, and either we are all running others off in the same manner (and maybe should consider changing how we do things), or Tom should get a bit more slack.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
It took one person saying "I miss Scott" and another saying that what happened was "unfortunate" for this topic to start bristling with defensiveness over the matter.
The fact of the matter is that it only took your post to open it up to insults towards people that don't treat Card the way some people think he deserves to be treated, Dagonee. Certain other people seem to have posted most of the insults, and few of them are directed at you or those you've championed thus far.
As for Tom posting in the same manner as everyone else here posts towards someone, that is clearly not true. Look at his post count, and tell me that anyone else here posts like that (yes, we all see that you're trying very hard to measure up). Okay, that's a bit silly, but it would be overdoing it to start pulling out and analyzing his various posts. And neither I nor anyone else has ever contended that Tom ran Card off this forum by himself.
You can read that pronoun both ways, too. Card isn't the only one that's been run off this forum, and Tom isn't the only one that's been helping run people off.
Fine. Ruin my thread that is just about paying tribute to Card's participation here and providing a way for his fans to learn more about his relationship with this forum. Then talk about how nobody is running Card or his fans off the site. And claim you're not doing it, for good measure. But don't insult our intelligence by talking as if we can't see what you're doing. Why not at least try being subtle about it?
Like me. I'm subtle Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
People. The Man posted yesterday. So he hasn't banned himself. You are deluding yourselves to think he has.
And Survivor, I don't think you're subtle at all. Every post I've read of yours since the "incident" seem to try to get someone to fight with you. If Card were to read this thread, I wonder if he would shake his head and tell himself how petty we are all.
If you really wanted a thread about Card's collected posts, you wouldn't have started the thread with the words "due to recent events..." That is hardly a subtle insult.
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
*shhhhhh* everyone calm down, human is right. OSC has been posting. I don't think we should be still talking about this though. Why bring up bad blood? It's done, let's let it go. I say, if they insult you Dag just let 'em. It's people on the internet, who cares, right? my 2 cents.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: As for Tom posting in the same manner as everyone else here posts towards someone, that is clearly not true. Look at his post count, and tell me that anyone else here posts like that.
Actually, I post considerably less often per day than a number of users, and I believe there are a couple of users who joined after I did who would technically pass my post count if you counted all their various alts. Overall, I'd say about ten or eleven people posts "like" I do, if by "like" you mean with my frequency.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Actually, I suspect debating the issue more would achieve quite a bit.
I disagree. But here's a simple exercise that'll tell you whether or not we need more arguing on this topic.
Think of an argument, then go read all the posts dedicated to this dead horse. Chances are, you'll see your argument voiced several times, and answered.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:It took one person saying "I miss Scott" and another saying that what happened was "unfortunate" for this topic to start bristling with defensiveness over the matter.
Do you read this stuff before you write about it?
The "other person" made a point of calling people "bad eggs."
quote:The fact of the matter is that it only took your post to open it up to insults towards people that don't treat Card the way some people think he deserves to be treated, Dagonee.
No, it only took archon's post to start insulting people.
quote:Certain other people seem to have posted most of the insults, and few of them are directed at you or those you've championed thus far.
The common thread in many of these posts has been:
1.) accusing a person of "chasing off" OSC, and 2.) accusing people who don't agree with 1 "sheep."
quote:Okay, that's a bit silly, but it would be overdoing it to start pulling out and analyzing his various posts. And neither I nor anyone else has ever contended that Tom ran Card off this forum by himself.
Right. You've contended that the "sheep" helped him do it.
quote:Fine. Ruin my thread that is just about paying tribute to Card's participation here and providing a way for his fans to learn more about his relationship with this forum. Then talk about how nobody is running Card or his fans off the site. And claim you're not doing it, for good measure. But don't insult our intelligence by talking as if we can't see what you're doing. Why not at least try being subtle about it?
I didn't ruin this thread. You started it off poorly, and archon and MoralDK took it upon themselves to insult me.
Further, you seem to have a poor understanding of free will. If anything I've said in this thread is "running [someone] off the site," the person who left didn't really want to be here.
Be perfectly clear on this: if someone posts revisionist history, don't accuse those who respond of "ruining" the thread. Accuse the person who claims to have wanted to start a thread to pay tribute but couldn't resist referencing a highly controversial dispute. Accuse the people who called people "bad eggs" or "sheep." But don't accuse me and expect me not to respond.
quote:Like me. I'm subtle
There's a difference between "passive aggressive" and "subtle."
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Yeah, let’s get back to yelling at Tom!
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:Think of an argument, then go read all the posts dedicated to this dead horse. Chances are, you'll see your argument voiced several times, and answered.
Just getting an answer to a question is not that useful, though. What you want is a complete and correct answer - and those often take a long time to figure out. And even then, if the answer doesn't solve the problem, you often need to rework the original question and approach it from another angle, until eventually the whole problem is understood and answered.
Most of the questions associated with this topic are far from being answered completely - most important of which is, how can we avoid having disagreements like this happen again?
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
quote:most important of which is, how can we avoid having disagreements like this happen again?
I would say more important is should we avoid having disagreements like this again? Can we? Or would the cost of avoiding these disagreements be worse than the occasional disagreements?
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
Wow. Daggers out! To battle! LET IT GO! Either OSC is gone or he isnt and theres nothing we can do about. Squabbling about who's fault it is and everthing is just making a downer out of a good clean forum.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Most of the questions associated with this topic are far from being answered completely - most important of which is, how can we avoid having disagreements like this happen again?
Um, sorry to burst your bubble, but if the 'questions' you're referring to have anything to do with the actions, thoughts, or behaviors of human beings you can forget about ever getting a 'complete and correct' answer.
And it's not possible to live life without having disagreements. In fact, when you don't get emotional and/or irrational, disagreements are healthy and valuable forms of interaction.
If you didn't get the answer you were looking for, that doesn't mean your question wasn't answered. More than likely, you saw what you needed and didn't recognize it for what it was. People have a tendency to expect a certain response, and when they don't get it they're convinced they've been misled.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Wow.
Let it die, folks.
--j_k
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
Please...for the love of god...just LET IT GO. This issue is between OSC and Tom. We don't belong in the middle (or the sides) of this, so please.... NO MORE TOPICS ABOUT THIS!!!
Thankfully it appears that OSC isn't leaving the site, the sky is not falling, and we can all sleep better at night.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
The fact that Card is willing to take a week's worth of deep breaths and then post a couple of times doesn't mitigate the kind of disrespect that's been shown towards him. I'm not crying about whether or not Card posts here, I don't actually care about that much one way or the other. As people have pointed out before, the man has better things to do. I happen to feel this a bit more strongly than some, but everyone agrees that the problem isn't whether Card actually posts here or not.
The problem is the way that some people treat him and anyone that dares to express agreement or even simple respect for the man. I can step in on that one based on my own personal convictions and based on how I've been treated here.
So, are we going to hold up a double standard now? What happened before was fine and dandy but what I'm doing now by expressing my opinion of it is wrong? Okay, how about the thread that I started here? What exactly was wrong with it? I knew that certain people would throw a hissy fit the moment they noticed it, but was there really some definite reason for them to do that?
Go ahead and think about that seriously.
Posted by Blackthorne (Member # 8295) on :
Good Heavens!!! This has gotten way out of hand. All of this debating has not improved ANYTHING. The only things I see here are insults countered by more insults. Please consider what you enjoy most about Hatrack before you try to ressurect this discussion. I guarantee that doing so will just continue to eat away at what has been left for us to salvage.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:The problem is the way that some people treat him and anyone that dares to express agreement or even simple respect for the man. I can step in on that one based on my own personal convictions and based on how I've been treated here.
The way several people have treated anyone who disagrees with you about the situation at issue here?
quote:So, are we going to hold up a double standard now? What happened before was fine and dandy but what I'm doing now by expressing my opinion of it is wrong?
Expressing your opinion about it is fine. Calling others names is not. Pretending you are occupying some sort of moral high ground is not.
And complaining about people who RESPOND to others arguments and misstating what's going on as being caused by those who disagree with you are neither OK nor honest.
quote:Okay, how about the thread that I started here? What exactly was wrong with it? I knew that certain people would throw a hissy fit the moment they noticed it, but was there really some definite reason for them to do that?
The pure audacity of stating that the someone threw a hissy fit over your starting the thread is ridiculous. Look at the third post. That's what started the argument here.
Was there a reason to speak of the "bad eggs"? To call people "sheep"?
Will you at least have the common decency to acknowledge that it's the people who agree with you about this who started the argument in this thread?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:The only things I see here are insults countered by more insults.
Where are the insults flowing back the other way? There are none in my posts.
[ October 11, 2005, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:Um, sorry to burst your bubble, but if the 'questions' you're referring to have anything to do with the actions, thoughts, or behaviors of human beings you can forget about ever getting a 'complete and correct' answer.
Well, yes, you are entirely right about that. For that reason the actions, thoughts, and behaviors of human beings are never a dead horse - there is always more to be said and thought about them.
The trick, then, is doing it without insulting people...
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
My only point is that since there is always more than can be said we're left with two choices: discuss it until we all die of natural causes leaving our children to argue it further, Hatfield/McCoy style; or just drop it.
Guess which way I vote?
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Weren't we getting back to yelling at Tom?
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Survivor, will you be my Mercutio?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Dagonee, do you find the phrase "circling the wagons" to be offensive? I was just wondering as I was using it in a post.
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
Did anyone read that Ender book where the kids start a riot over the Piggies (or something)? Isn't that what Survior is doing? He is the one pouring the gasoline on everyone...
If you are all going to fight, at least know why.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Tom did it, Tom did it...
Find a rope!
BC
Posted by Paul-gritbooks (Member # 8720) on :
Jeni:
quote:Do you really want this to be the first thing new people see when they come to the forum?
Yep, well said Jeni. This is the most vile, bile infested forum I've ever come across -
- bye!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Dagonee, do you find the phrase "circling the wagons" to be offensive? I was just wondering as I was using it in a post.
Not really, although it typically implies unthinking defense and may be a way to avoid dealing with the supporting arguments of a defense.
If it doesn't do either of these things, and the arguments of the defense are actually discussed, then it's not problematic.
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
quote:Originally posted by Paul-gritbooks: Jeni:
quote:Do you really want this to be the first thing new people see when they come to the forum?
Yep, well said Jeni. This is the most vile, bile infested forum I've ever come across -
- bye!
You have got to be kidding. I can't help but draw the conclusion that you have not come across many forums.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
In all fairness...if that Paul is the one I'm thinking it was, he wasn't expecting me and Card to be in the reviled minority here. What counts as vile depends a lot on what you expect to find in a place.
Look, I'm not pretending to occupy the moral high ground here. I am on the moral high ground
It isn't my fault that everyone else wasn't already standing here. But hey, come on over. It's damn fine ground.
At least you've gotten around to noticing (finally) that I'm here to express my disagreement with Card about certain subjects. I thought I was really going to have to break out the long winded speeches.
Unfortunately, I probably don't have time to be in a play. I'm pretty busy around now. But it sounds like fun.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: At least you've gotten around to noticing (finally) that I'm here to express my disagreement with Card about certain subjects.
Well, duh. You're about as subtle and precise as a sledgehammer that thinks it's a scalpel.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
There he is! Get'em!
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
Toooommmmmm, stop answering him. I wish this thread would die already...nobody say anything after this!
*peeks head back in* shhhhh! I hear you in there! Go to sleep!
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
Hah, it's my thread and I'll post if I want to.
Or maybe I'll start a new topic, one with no attempts at subtlety. It really is like making a sledgehammer self aware. In what universe would somebody who did something like that live?
quote:"How are we going to get through?"
"Use your head!"
"But I don't want to use my head!"
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Tom is Bad, Four legs Good, Tom is Bad, Four legs Good!
BC
Posted by Paul-gritbooks (Member # 8720) on :
quote:This is the most vile, bile infested forum I've ever come across
Okay, that was an exaggeration, but I had hoped that a strongly worded comment from a newcomer might have the desired affect most people were looking for and shut down this thread. Apparently not.
But, seriously, Jeni has a point: do you really want this to be the first thing people come across?!
Individually you might all be well-balanced intelligent people, but collectively this thread really is incredibly childish, giving off the distinct image of a group of kids bickering and ranting in a school playground.
And, yes Survivor, it is the same Paul. I'll stick to the writers' workshop forum. Honestly, Survivor, why do you bother with this particular discussion area? It really is beneath you, man. See you around the workshop...
... PS when are you going to post a fragment?! I'm dying to read some of your stuff.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
So we should pretend we're not a group of kids bickering and ranting in a school playground? It seems to me that the first thing people come across should be an honest portrayal of us. And if this is how we act, why should we want newbies to think we act otherwise?
Thus the question should not be "Is this what we want people to see when they first come here?" but rather "Is this how we want to act?" Or, perhaps more appropriately, "Can we do better?"
I'm not sure. In contrast to your average forum, I think this thread is a pretty good example of how a dispute can be handled. It should be noted that nobody had to be banned, nobody started cursing anyone else out, people mostly gave reasons for their thoughts rather than making irrational accusations, and so on. We could do better still, I'm guessing, but to expect a group without disagreements would be to expect a very boring group.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Seems like it came up again in the latest round, Tom. But then, truth is not what actually happened, but what we perceive to have happened. At least, that is how you have been winning the PR war of "recent events". And it's solid Card canon, so what can we do?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: But then, truth is not what actually happened, but what we perceive to have happened. At least, that is how you have been winning the PR war of "recent events".
These two sentences bother me a great deal, mainly because they suggest that you completely fail to understand the situation. Drop me an email, since it's not something I'm inclined to discuss here?
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
"Tom is Bad, Four legs Good, Tom is Bad, Four legs Good!
BC"
Posted by MoralDK (Member # 8395) on :
Maybe pooka isn't the only one Tom. Maybe you should educate us all.
Is that the problem? Too many behind the scenes conversations? Could that be contributing to this smoldering situation?
Posted by Jeni (Member # 1454) on :
For the record, I don't think that respectful discussion of these events that have obviously made an impact on the forum is a bad idea. I don't have any problem with newbies seeing that. I do have a problem with people coming across this board for the first time and seeing the kind of cheap, snide remarks that were being thrown around in the first few posts of this thread. The question I posed was a (rather feeble) attempt to get Jay and Bean Counter and the like to rethink those tactics.
Posted by Therese (Member # 8579) on :
Huh. I don't post much (like, at all,) but I do read quite a bit. I missed the original post, but it seems to me that this has turned out to be an awesome publicity stunt, if nothing else. I'll sign up for the mag just to see if it's going to fail, now.
As long as I'm actually talking, I have to say, I don't think Tom was out of line. He was a bit prickly and rude with how he phrased things, but assuming that was his honest opinion, you'd think Card would be glad to know about some potential flaws before he signs the papers for the shoes.
I've never been really interested in a "personal relationship" with Mr. Card, beyond one of author and reader, but I do appreciate how he is/was the only author I know who really does take the time to openly respond to fan questions and ideas.
Posted by TheSeeingHand (Member # 8349) on :
As much as I'll miss him posting, I think it's best since (I hope) this means he'll spend more time on whatever book he's writing so he can finish it and get back to Ender and Alvin Maker.
You take a hit now, you feel it BREAK DOWN! Makes you stay wide awake, THIS IS HOW A HEART BREAKS!!
Sorry, that was unrelated but it was the best part of the song.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Dang it Tom!
Posted by hiro1000 (Member # 6905) on :
What I find absolutely funny is that this tom guy has 22373, Registered in 1999. Nice waste of your life tom. Good Job! Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Absolutely! I mean, it's not like in that time he got married, had a beautiful daughter, had a lot of interesting conversations with folks here, or even held down a full-time job during that time.
[ October 12, 2005, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote: What I find absolutely funny is that this tom guy has 22373, Registered in 1999. Nice waste of your life tom. Good Job!
Um, I guess I fail to see the humor in that. If anything, I think it's nice that people contribute a lot of their time and effort into this place. If everyone posted at the rate of three per month, it'd be a pretty slow, boring forum.
Posted by hiro1000 (Member # 6905) on :
Probably some old fat guy with absolutely no life?
You do not need to have so many posts to be great. If you thing your a veteran on this site or something because you have so many posts, then your the real definition of an idiot. Not to mention the definition of stupidity “which is someone trying something over and over again and getting the same outcome” For example, trying to criticize and harass Mr. Card.
Lets look at your resume. Lets see 6 years of harassing a Sci-Fi author. Oh I am sure someone will hire you with those credentials.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
*eyebrow raised
And if Tom were a young, personable, adorable man with a beautiful slim young wife and a cheeky bouncing baby girl, and if he and his wife had excellent positions at the local universities, and he were to have many friends and interests to keep his life filled and content ... what would this mean to you, hiro1000? Would he then not be eligible for potshots?
(I like Tom. I know Tom in real life. Actually, we live in the same town. And, for what it's worth, I'm not quite at the empty-resume stage, myself. *amused)
I have expected Hatrackers to live up to the standard of "speak with passion, listen with respect." This never seemed to me to be inclusive of petty speculation about one another's lives.
C'mon. This place can be more than that.
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
quote:with a beautiful slim young wife
*wondering why CT thinks slimness is such an important personal characteristic*
*decides to stop wondering*
*BTW, escaped from Madison and an asshole UW prof in 1996*
*wonders if they've realized yet in Madison that the sixties ENDED*
Posted by Therese (Member # 8579) on :
Probably because that hiro guy said the word "fat," so she felt she needed to contradict him, and just switched who she meant to modify, or something.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
As best I can tell, all the people with ridiculously high post counts lead full, interesting non-Hatrack lives.
So do lots of other posters, of course. The point is there's little correlation if any.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yozhik:
quote:with a beautiful slim young wife
*wondering why CT thinks slimness is such an important personal characteristic*
I don't. It is one of many qualities. (Why, do you?)
quote:*BTW, escaped from Madison and an asshole UW prof in 1996*
*wonders if they've realized yet in Madison that the sixties ENDED*
Yozhik, I am fervently delighted that you decided to leave Madison and find a more suitable home for you, never to look back. Congratulations!
Edited to add: That sounded so harsh when I reread it. What I meant to say is that it is sometimes very difficult to break out of a rut and redefine oneself as "of" another place. We all have places we hate, places that bring out the worst in us, and it sounds like Madison is one of those places for you.
So, it's great that you've left and you don't have to come back. That sounds very healthy for you.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
In fairness to Yozhik, it can be difficult to escape Madison. There are really only five roads out of town, and only one of them is generally free of traffic and construction. As that one goes for nearly thirty miles through farmland before you see another McDonald's, I'd imagine most people trying to escape that way go a bit bibbledy, as I've heard it put, from staring into the Green and wind up buying houses and voting for Progressive Dane instead.
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
Probably some old fat guy with absolutely no life?
You do not need to have so many posts to be great. If you thing your a veteran on this site or something because you have so many posts, then your the real definition of an idiot. Not to mention the definition of stupidity “which is someone trying something over and over again and getting the same outcome” For example, trying to criticize and harass Mr. Card.
Lets look at your resume. Lets see 6 years of harassing a Sci-Fi author. Oh I am sure someone will hire you with those credentials."
Oh, wait! Now I see the "vile, bile infestation"... I was looking for that, thanks! Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
JUST SHUT YOUR FARISKIN PIEHOLES! You are not helping ANYTHING!
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
Stop the madness....
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
For a thread that's been going downhill since its birth, it's now just rolling in filth, isn't it?
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
I should just start a topic called "For the love of all that is holy or looks good naked, DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD!".
I'm not going to talk about Tom's personal life, because that would really be getting into it. Besides, my point was the way various people have acted here.
Paul is right about some things. Next month I will have much better things to do than post on this forum every day. But it's...I'm not going to quibble over a vowel.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
See even my humor is interpreted as snide, what a bent outlook!
BC
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Survivor, if I can make a suggestion...?
I sincerely like the idea of compiling Card's posts, but again think you might not realize how much work this would actually take -- especially if you also want to record the other posts in the same threads to give his words context.
I would delete this thread, then post both here and at P-Web -- leaving out any historical backstory, either accurate or invented -- in order to recruit helpers. I think you'll get a better response that way.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Tom!
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
"See even my humor is interpreted as snide, what a bent outlook!
BC"
I liked it! Posted by Peek (Member # 7688) on :
Dudes. chill. Tom's all good. Everyone's all good. It's all good.
Dude peekaboo
Yeah.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
Tom, do you ever worry that someone might actually read your other posts on this subject and wonder what you're trying to do?
You can't take sides and play moderator. I know that we've had this discussion before, but it bears saying. I know, I shouldn't say can't because you do it rather often, so obviously it's possible. I just don't see the point.
Now, taking your idea semi-seriously for a moment, users can already search through Card's posts if they know how. This thread was addressed to newer users who might have come here because it's the official web site of Orson Scott Card. It was also addressed to more experienced members who might remember tidbits of his conversation here. So the one group could benefit from the other, and the community here could grow.
See, moving it somewhere else or making it just an indexed, searchable database...it might lose something that way. Like, its entire point in the first place.
Obviously, the main point is that you don't like the existence of this thread for various reasons. I wouldn't blame you...except that almost all of the reasons you don't like this thread are your own fault
I could start another thread, and quite possibly I will, but it isn't like I can prevent people that have no wish for such a thread to exist from spamming it with spiteful or derogatory comments. So I'm willing to see this thread play out before I quit posting here. I'm certainly not going to delete it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Tom, do you ever worry that someone might actually read your other posts on this subject and wonder what you're trying to do?
Honestly? No, I never do. Because I say what I mean, mean what I say, and do not engage in silly games. I do not do it. I don't play that way. I don't post that way. I have absolutely no interest in that sort of manipulation. I would not, for example, pretend to start a thread about archiving Card's posts as a pretext to criticize someone if I did not also believe that archiving Card's posts would have value.
You will find it MUCH easier to understand me if you understand this. I think half the problem you have with me, Survivor, is that you assume I'm a much more complicated person than I am.
---
That said, users cannot search through all of Card's posts "if they know how." They can revisit his recent posts, as your first post in this thread explains, but this forum regularly purges threads which have not received replies within a certain period. Almost all of Card's historical posts are in fact gone.
And -- as I have said before -- I like and respect the guy, and agree with the assertion that his fans might like to know what he's said on a given subject. While I don't know how he would feel about having his words here preserved for posterity, I think that a number of dedicated fans might in fact see value in doing precisely that.
I agree with your recent argument that the preservation of context would be a concern; in fact, I mentioned that issue earlier. But I see no reason why a thread archive would be impossible to set up, if you really think his words are worth preserving and would be of interest to a fan.
If this is a project you think you'd like to start, I suggest using another thread to do it precisely because the kind of people who love this site and would be willing to devote their time to what would be in many cases a very dull process are very unlikely to wade through some of the irrelevant and hostile-sounding parts of this thread to get to serious proposals. A thread which concentrated only on a serious proposal -- and which avoided veiled criticism of other posters, to avoid the possibility of unrelated confrontation or argument -- would probably get a more positive response from the people you'd need to reach.
Posted by kacard (Member # 200) on :
Though I believe the idea behind this collecting of OSC comments is a kind offer -- I'm pretty sure the adminstrators would resist It certainly would not make Landmark status. Landmarks are for what they are -- people's own story about themselves. Random comments are not a Landmark. And the forums were always meant to be a fluid conversation with it's ups and downs. Many of the old stuff is gone -- as are many of the old citizens of Hatrack who either felt unwelcome here or found other things to spend their lives on. So, how about we put an end to this conversation all together. Thanks.
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peekaboo