One thing I could never figure out about this book (one of my favs) is why the names of his horses are after nazis. Is there any meaning to this?
Also, while this would be a hard movie to make (due to the frequent hermaphroditic nudity), it'd be a great RPG, either computer or paper. Any remote chance of seeing this?
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Wow. I'm really curious how that movie will be. It seems like it would be a real challenge to translate it into a movie. At least, the story images I had in my head as I read it would be hard to make into a film.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
I don't remember horses named after Nazis. Can you give us some quotations with page numbers?
Posted by Dav (Member # 8217) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: I don't remember horses named after Nazis. Can you give us some quotations with page numbers?
I too had noticed the horses' names. The names are first mentioned on the two last pages of the first chapter, pp. 20-21 in my copy.
* very very slight spoiler warning * . . .
They are Himmler and Hitler, and they're mentioned a few more times in the second chapter until he loses them.
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
I suspect that Card was being funny, and was indicating that in the world of Treason, those names have lost the connotations we usually assign to them.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
The horses' names are Hitler and Himmler. That was my clear signal that the original "rebels" whose treason was the reason for these families' exile on this world were NOT NICE PEOPLE. They were people who admired Hitler and the Third Reich - and whatever they did must have been horrible enough to justify their permanent exile - along with all their ideas. And yet they were very smart people ... dangerously so.
The suggestion is that those people - Schwartz, Ku Kuei - who turned inward had, perhaps, learned soemthing from their involvement with evil. Others - like the illuders - had not. and the irony of the Muellers growing body parts for export, when they still adhered to some ideas of the racial supremacy of the Nazis ...
Most people don't catch that, of course, but ... my job in the story was not to discover the past of the planet, but for Lanik to figure out what was going on in the present ...
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
Wow. Cool. I never caught that, and I was living in the house where you wrote it I always got the impression that the rebels really were the oppressed good guys ... but then, when I read it, I was young an impressionable, and probably didn't have the capacity to catch on that there might not have been a "good guys" in that situation.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
About the 2nd read, I caught onto the Nazi references, and I saw a connection there to Lanik's arrogance. He clearly saw people of color as having an inferior place in the world. I just wasn't sure how intentional all of this was - but now I see that it was.
Posted by aiua (Member # 7825) on :
I hate saying this, but as I remember it, most of the coloured people were portrayed as inferior. Or, if not inferior, at least not all that nice.
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
They were definitely not inferior. The Nkumai were selling advanced theoretical physics through the Ambassador for scads of iron, remember? And if they weren't nice, that was probably because our protagonist was trying to infiltrate and sabotage them ...
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
I definitely need to read this book...
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
The Muellers thought of the Nkumai as inferior - but in fact they were superior - that's what was causing some real worry.
The Ku Kuei, also "of color," were one of the benign but overwhelmingly powerful groups, with control of time flow. The Schwartzes, also black, were in control of the solidity of matter. Um, not inferior, folks.
The point was not that they were all evil because their ancestors were evil - in fact, by now the people being punished for the original treason were many, many generations removed from the crimes. Every nation on Treason had become something quite different from the others. But Lanik happened to come from a nation that had kept some of the nastier features of the original rebels; and had to be callous toward their own people in harvesting and selling what they did.
So there were plenty of good guys among the people of Treason NOW ... Schwartzes, Ku Kuei most notably ... and Lanik's people were not the worst. But he had much to learn before he was ready to keep the Illuders from taking over the world and introducing them all to REAL nastiness.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Funny how a question about horses' names can lead to all this subtext.
Interesting backstory, Mr. Card.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
Yeah, this book just jumped on my to read list. I don't think I've seen it in bookstores, though.
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
OSC, is this story based on Cain's murder of Abel and how his descendants were treated by white people for... pretty much ever until recently? But theres the fact that black people themselves were never inherently bad so maybe not. That's the first thing that popped into my mind reading your post anyway. Is there a connection?
[ December 24, 2005, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: cheiros do ender ]
Posted by aiua (Member # 7825) on :
I apologize. It's been a while since I last read it and must have confused it with something else. Now it's come back, but a tad late. Never mind!
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
quote:OSC, is this story based on Cain's murder of Abel and how his descendants were treated by white people for... pretty much ever until recently? But theres the fact that black people themselves were never inherently bad so maybe not. That's the first thing that popped into my mind reading your post anyway. Is there a connection?
I can't answer this fully for OSC, since I'm not him, but as someone who grew up in his household, I can tell you one thing:
OSC does NOT believe that people of African ancestry are descended from Cain.
He actually warned me as a child that some people thought this, but that as far as he could tell, the scriptures said no such thing. He influenced me quite strongly not to accept "popular" interpretations of scripture, particularly if they struck me as wrong or insidious (as this one does).
Fortunately, as time goes on, such ideas are becoming less and less popular.
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
Are you Geoffrey Card? 'Cause I got the God's Army novel, among many many others, for Christmas If will be pretty cool if you are. I'm assuming you're a male because I can't imagine why a female would call herself a rat in her username. Am I right?
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
quote:I can't answer this fully for OSC, since I'm not him, but as someone who grew up in his household, I can tell you one thing:
I always wondered about the horses too, but never got around to posting about it.
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
Oh, hey, yeah, I'm Geoff. You mean people are still buying the God's Army novel? Wow, I really hope you like it! And I wonder where my royalty check went ...
Oh well, I work for a different company run by Mormons with an iambic two-syllable name beginning with a vowel, followed by "Entertainment" now Goodbye, Excel Entertainment! Hello, Amaze!
Posted by Nikisknight (Member # 8918) on :
Well, that actually makes sense, thanks.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:You mean people are still buying the God's Army novel?
I actually bought it just a couple of months ago. I haven't read it yet though...
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I always got the impression that the rebels really were the oppressed good guys ... but then, when I read it, I was young an impressionable, and probably didn't have the capacity to catch on that there might not have been a "good guys" in that situation.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
If will be pretty cool if you are. I'm assuming you're a male because I can't imagine why a female would call herself a rat in her username. Am I right?
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)