This is topic Look again at Academic Music in forum Discussions About Orson Scott Card at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
"After all, the goal is to irritate an audience and make them regret coming to the performance -- unless they're part of the chosen few." OSC


Well I won't attack or argue with you. I'll admit my simian brain did want to pick up a big peice of fruit and chuck it at YOU for treading on my "turf" but that's not fair either.

I am a third year undergrad Music student, I study mainly history, but am an active performer and composer as well. Luckily IMO, and at least where I study, Atonality is not all its cracked up to be. We have a number of local ensembles and composers who work within the "atonal" framework, although even my saying that is a load of crap because it isn't really accurate, none of them work in a specific "framework" at all. But I have attended some stunning performances of genuinely new music that was great to listen to. Just this sunday I was at a premiere of Tan Dun, Takemitsu and Pablo Ortiz that was amazingly pleasant and surprisingly tonal.

On the other hand I have been to guest lectures where the composer asked the name of the class: "20th century music." "Ah yes," he said: "The LAST century." As in, the FINAL century. Interesting and a bit foreboding for a professional composer to say.

But not true at all I think, I hope. A minor correction here, people threw fruit at the premier of "Rite of Spring," because it actually WAS terrible. Eyewitness accounts show that the performance had been under-rehearsed, and being a ballet, dependent on exact timing, it got off by several minutes and was a confused and ugly mess at the end. (There have actually been "reconstructions" of this effect in recent years). Of course nowadays this is a popular peice of wisdom about Stravinsky which is probably misinterpreted, although there is no knowing for sure.

My point is, I think an audience today CAN still be pleased by new music. You may be absolutely right about ATONAL music, but it really just isn't all that's out there. The problem is, some academics poo poo tonality, and the public gets subjected to its fair share of uncomfortable, or boring, or confusing atonal work, and the tonal composers get written off even by the public for "sounding like" -insert popular composer-. But we are out there, naive though we may certainly be.

Hey look, I did argue with you after all. My bad.


edit: I might have added that this particular concert was very much and "academic" one, feauturing a number of composers from the university.

another edit: On sober reflection, I will take particular exception to the idea that composers "throw fruit at their audiences." If you believe this, you must have met some pretty discontented composers. The goal is NOT to alienate, you simply feel alienated, or maybe you alienate yourself by othering "the chosen few," as strange and exclusive excentrics. I understand that you listened and didn't like it; well, I doubt this was the intent of the composer, if it was, I feel bad for him and you both. Point is, the "fruit" that's being thrown is perhaps only YOUR reaction to the music, not the intent of the composer, or the reactions of others.

To say that the 'Goal' is to irritate? Tsk tsk. When people critique your work, I doubt they often conclude that their annoyance with your prose style is the result of a special effort, by you, to alienate your audience. This wouldn't hold water with anyone, yet it seems to with music. Hmmm.

There I've gone and attacked after all. But its alright, I don't think your trying to alienate ME.

[ January 28, 2006, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: Orincoro ]
 

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Posted by Joshua Newberry (Member # 7864) on :
 
Where are you a music student?

And you could've posted this in the thread I made on the subject.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
I am at UC Davis. I didn't post over there because I didn't like the way that conversation was going, so I really couldn't have posted this topic over there, seeing as the subject of my thread is a bit different, and I am not interested in wading through Pelegius' arguments about semantics, etc.
 

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Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
 
And yet the almost universal experience of professional orchestras is that people stay away in droves from "new music," and if they intend to have a large audience, they will include at least some beloved favorites on the program.

Unless, of course, they can tout the "edginess" of the "new music."

Of course there's good new music being composed.

But you know and I know that atonality is not the only way music can be ugly or otherwise hostile to the audience. The rejection of the western tradition leads to the rejection of the orchestra by the audience - turnabout is fair play. This is not news. Academic musicians sneer at the general public for their ignorance and for their devotion to the old stuff all the time. The only time they ever pretend otherwise is when someone writes a critical essay like mine. Then, suddenly, they're open to "all the forms" and they are full of lovingkindness, so how can an ignorant critic possibly accuse them of wanting to exclude the audience.

And then they go write back to sneering at the ignorant yokels who simply don't "get it."

Do you think I wrote my essay without knowing plenty of music people - from some who have exactly the attitudes I described, to former grad students who detested the pressure they got from faculty to write bad music, or quit their grad programs because the music they loved to write and perform was sneered at or even was openly rejected as a suitable subject for a doctorate or MFA?

It indeed the situation is changing, that's happy news. But I have yet to see a new composer being lionized for writing brilliant AND ACCESSIBLE music; instead, it continues to be music that only the cognoscenti - only the "inner ring," to use CS Lewis's term - can pretend to love.
 

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Posted by Joshua Newberry (Member # 7864) on :
 
This thread, not Pelegius'. I wouldn't want to go through it either.

http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/main/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004002
 

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Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
 
I'm betting that the best new orchestral music these days is being written for movies and video games ... I'm planning to go to one of those "video game music" concerts when it comes to town.

[hums the Halo theme] Da-da-da-DUM! ... Da-da-da-DUM! ... Da-da-da-DUM! ... Da-da-da-DUM! Da-da-da-DA-DUL-DUM!
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 

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Originally posted by Orson Scott Card:
And yet the almost universal experience of professional orchestras is that people stay away in droves from "new music," and if they intend to have a large audience, they will include at least some beloved favorites on the program.

Unless, of course, they can tout the "edginess" of the "new music."

Of course there's good new music being composed.

Academic musicians sneer at the general public for their ignorance and for their devotion to the old stuff all the time. The only time they ever pretend otherwise is when someone writes a critical essay like mine. Then, suddenly, they're open to "all the forms" and they are full of lovingkindness, so how can an ignorant critic possibly accuse them of wanting to exclude the audience.

And then they go write back to sneering at the ignorant yokels who simply don't "get it."

Do you think I wrote my essay without knowing plenty of music people -

But I have yet to see a new composer being lionized for writing brilliant AND ACCESSIBLE music; instead, it continues to be music that only the cognoscenti - only the "inner ring," to use CS Lewis's term - can pretend to love.

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The universal experience people have with "New Music" INCLUDES what YOU say about it. I know your not pulling these opinions out of the air, I know you wouldn't do something so stupid as to commit yourself on the public record without a good amount of thought behind your opinions. And I don't especially disagree with what you say, but I think you make some assumptions about intent which are not exactly your perogative to make. That's not fair, because you HAVE to make assumptions, but its also unfair to the good new music that you and I know exists.

You want to make claims about how composers just want to be edgy and defiant. I think your way off. I'm active in the musical community (albiet I am not one of the blessed illuminati to whom you allude), and this has just never been my impression. This is like any art form, some idiot has gotten your attention by BEING an idiot. Well, that's an inevitable part of life. We always like the macabreness of the crazies, it draws our attention, even our negative attention. This is what makes reality TV so popular.

"Academic musicians sneer at the general public for their ignorance and for their devotion to the old stuff all the time."

Of course. Mozart once wrote in a letter to his father that the Germans didn't like his work because they had no appreciation of the Vienesse style of music. No Matter, he said, I will instill an appreciation for it! Brilliant people have brilliant egos. I think you probably do your fair share of sneering, but if so, you do it privately and don't insult people. You can't say however, that there is an area of art that doesn't have its vocal minority of primadonnas, (music INVENTED the word!) your only listening to the people who force you to listen to them, and these people are rare.

"The only time they ever pretend otherwise is when someone writes a critical essay like mine."
And then they go write back to sneering at the ignorant yokels who simply don't "get it."

Well now you left me in an indefensible position. I can't very well say your wrong. Since your paranoic view of the phantom 'musical establishment' dictates that I should now most certainly be lying to you, I guess what I am about to say is a lie. I do laugh sometimes at people like you. Well, not exactly like you. I don't like the fact that I can get territorial and snobish about my interests, but I can't help it. I try NOT to express it. I often fail not to feel superior, and defensive, when the things I am most interested in and PROUD of, are so badly trampled by others, who feel no need to tread lightly on rice paper floors.

I have a right to feel proud of what I do. I even know I DONT have a right to attack the otherwise perfectly tolerable person who asks me if I can play "Pachelbell's Canon" "by Mozart", on the piano for them. I do not say to them that no I would not like to play the Canon in D, by Pachelbell, a church organist who's music bears no special similarity to that of Mozart. I could say that, and I would be seen as a snob. (I lied, actually, I have said that, sweetly, and been told I was a snob). But the American culture is, AGRESSIVELY ignorant of the western musical tradition. I have traveled around Europe, lived in England and Catalonia, and visited many concert halls where the people were shocked to see an American, especially one my age, interested in timeless classics that are known and loved in that part of the world. In comparison with the American music history vocabulary, which is likely to include less than 10 well known seasonal works, I have always been impressed with ordinary Europeans' interest in music. Not only that, I have had an Italian professor tell me that he has to fly back to Rome every month in order to find a venue where his new music can be performed, because American institutions aren't interested in his brand of experimental music. Rome never struck me as being more liberal than Berkley California, the place where the professor actually lives.

"Ignorant Yokels." Who is to blame for this? WE have built up a culture where the Nutcracker is a bad word in music schools, because it is innextricably tied up with disgusting American commercialism. People assosiate Tchaikovsky with MALLS for God's sake, MALLS. Your telling me the music community alienates the people. I'm telling you the people alienate the musical community. And we are expected to laugh and agree when we're told that new music just isn't any good,
(No, I know YOU didn't say that) that people would much rather hear the same 5 peices that everybody recognizes from a toy commercial. I would concede your point about classics if I could be convinced that Americans were even aware of a reasonable amount of the classical literature.

I absorb all this, and the only place I ever share the way I really feel about it is with the Rack. So who sneers at whom? You seem to be sneering at the musical community, we snobish and arrogant fools. Well, if that's so I don't think you DO "get it." I don't pretend to love anything, I guess I'm not one of you cogniscenti? Maybe even I don't "Get it" then? Or maybe there is no IT? As for an accessible modern composer: I just named three brilliant ones. Takemitsu, Tan Dun and Pablo Ortiz. They're not the attention getting types, but they're wonderful nonetheless.


Now here I've gone and gotten my ire up over an ignorant yokel... I'm exausted.

Edit: I thought about going into a big diatribe about value judgments, how 'everything is equal' and everybody has worthy opinions of everything, but that discussion is such a black hole. I don't even want to think about getting into it again.

edited yet again: I just realized I ignored one of your main points. The orchestra has abandoned the audience and turnabout is fair play. This basically goes back to what I did talk about above, which is, with an audience of people who want to hear the same tired material year after year, its tough love. You'd hate the orchestra even more if all you got was sugary mozart and yummy beethoven all the time. And what a small world it would be.

[ January 29, 2006, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Orincoro ]
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 

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Originally posted by A Rat Named Dog:
I'm betting that the best new orchestral music these days is being written for movies and video games ...

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Originally posted by Orincoro:

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Originally posted by A Rat Named Dog:
I'm betting that the best new orchestral music these days is being written for movies and video games ...

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Not a chance. This is simply the only medium in which most people will ever listen to an orchestra. The only other way is to buy a cd or go to a concert, and if you don't like classical, your unlikely to do this. So BEST is such a strong word. Certainly, Most popular. There are even some brilliant orchestral or chamber music soundracks, "Hero" with Perlman pops to mind, but there is -some- orchestral work which is still being produced for concerts.

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Originally posted by A Rat Named Dog:
I'm betting that the best new orchestral music these days is being written for movies and video games ...

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Originally posted by Dav:

Originally posted by A Rat Named Dog:
Sure, anyone can say they're wrong, but that's going to be another subjective judgement call. Different people have different criteria for what makes a piece of music great.

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And yet the almost universal experience of professional orchestras is that people stay away in droves from "new music," and if they intend to have a large audience, they will include at least some beloved favorites on the program.

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I'm betting that the best new orchestral music these days is being written for movies and video games ... I'm planning to go to one of those "video game music" concerts when it comes to town.

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Originally posted by Dagonee:
Orincoro, your post looks like it is conflating two different people. Dav is the one you accuse of liking "GOTCHA," but you mention Dog's post as a brick under a hat on the sidewalk.

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Yah I didn't really like either sentiment.

No bad feelings Dav.

This space ranger is :::powering down:::
 

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Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
 
"After all, the goal is to irritate an audience and make them regret coming to the performance -- unless they're part of the chosen few." OSC

Maybe he's just trying to be funny, but the sarcasm seems a little harsh to me...

Card is making a generalization (exclamation point) about atonal composers that isn't fair to the many of them. I'm in my 3rd year of studying music with professors who got their undergrad degrees during atonality's prime. I've listened to (and played) some of their atonal compositions and can say that whether they were listenable or not, the intentions of these composers wasn't to irritate their "ignorant audience". The music they wrote was the music that spoke to them at that point in time, and they loved it, not because their composition teacher and the atonality club approved, but because it DID speak to them. They wrote music that isn't easily swallowed and maybe requires a few listens before you get to grasp it or like it. And I guess that makes it "academic"--but I don't sneer at others if they don't like atonal music, and I don't consider myself one of the "chosen few". Sometimes atonal music is the best(sorry to use the term, Dav) music to describe abstract things like colors, cars, or "discomfort".

Card likes to show his interest in language etymology, which could be considered "esoteric" or "academic", and I find it all pretty interesting. Atonal music is also "esoteric" and "academic", which means it isn't for everyone, but I find it very interesting. So don't generalize all atonal composers as snobs whose intentions are merely to irritate the audience. The composers I know put the music first, audience second.

I think it's ok to like some things that take a little effort to get in to, especially if there is a depth to them that you can't find in what is "easy" to relate to.
 

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Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
 

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Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong:

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I'm betting that the best new orchestral music these days is being written for movies and video games ... I'm planning to go to one of those "video game music" concerts when it comes to town.

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Possibly, but I don't think that music should need to be supported by a film or game to get its message across. In general, if the best new music is being written for films or video games, I'm not sure that there is good serious music being written. [/QB]

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quote:

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if the best new music is being written for films or video games, I'm not sure that there is good serious music being written.

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Originally posted by JemmyGrove:
[QUOTE]

And incidentally, it's also interesting to note how much movie music, if not strictly atonal by definition, certainly stretches musical traditions and conventions WAYYYYYY past romanticism,

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I hope that isn't news to any music students here at the Rack. "Past" is too strong a descriptor, movie music depends alot more on the Wagnerian Ideal, and the leitmotif, than on Beethoven. Beethoven's brand of Romantiscism was pretty German: express the idea, don't linger, not much attention paid to "prettying up" the orchestration. The heavy handed Berlioz/Beethoven type movie soundtracks that sometimes get made today, "Troy" is a particularly wretched example IMO, are nothing like the more programatic, character oriented works like for example, Star Wars or Lord of the Rings (both VERY Wagnerian).
 

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Posted by clod (Member # 9084) on :
 
The violet is not a viola

That's what she told me, anyhow.
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
Well said, Clod.


 

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Posted by blonsky214 (Member # 8119) on :
 

quote:

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But I have yet to see a new composer being lionized for writing brilliant AND ACCESSIBLE music

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quote:

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Originally posted by A Rat Named Dog:
I'm betting that the best new orchestral music these days is being written for movies and video games ... I'm planning to go to one of those "video game music" concerts when it comes to town.

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