This is topic How old are the Buggers? (Come on OSC, tell us, or give a clue, or something! Please) in forum Discussions About Orson Scott Card at Hatrack River Forum.
I have always wondered, how old the buggers are. Obviously I thought, they are much, MUCH old then Humans. I sorta assumed them to be around 5- 200 million years. Yes, in that amount of time, they would have gotten a substantialy greater amount of technology, but I just can't see them as a few hundred thousand year old species.
Any thoughts?
[ February 16, 2006, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: Reticulum ]
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
At what point do we mark the "birth" of a sentient species? When they adopted their current shape? When they "awakened" with intelligence? When they developed the first trappings of civilization?
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Well history for humans (as far as I know) is dated back to the first civilization that had a written language. And since the buggers never had any need for a spoken or wirtten language, how would we date their civilization?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
There's a story in one of the books about how one queen finally managed to make peace with one of her daughters instead of driving her from the nest or killing her.
I'd date that as the start of their civilization.
Even if it's not the start, I'd like to know how long ago that was.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
That could be considered an example of how the Formics present form of civilization started. But the question I think Reticulum is asking is how old is are the Formics in their current form along the evolutionary chain.
A Rat Named Dog, perhaps you could inquire to good old OSC and get his opinion. It would be very helpful in resolving this issue quickly and decisively. Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
These days, living across the country, I don't talk to him that much more often than you do I'm sure eventually, he'll find this thread.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Really? I forget what state does OSC live in now?
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Are you listening to your IM Reticulum?
Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
Hmm, the Buggers can't be that old, can they? Don't yo uthink that by Ender's time we would have been more aware of them if they were as close as Eros? Of course, human kind is a little ignorent when they don't want to believe something.
Posted by Pinky (Member # 9161) on :
Maybe they are even younger than the human species. After all, it didn't take that long for evolution to create insects of all kinds. And because each new Hive Queen starts with the knowledge of all of her ancestors, without ever forgetting anything, it might have been easier for the buggers to develop their technology. (In addition to that, it saves a lot of time not to be forced to discuss the moral and ethnic problems of a decision. )
Posted by Space Mogol (Member # 9146) on :
I sincerely doubt that the buggers are younger then us. It would still take many, many years to colonize and develope other worlds, among other technologies.
Posted by Pinky (Member # 9161) on :
quote:I sincerely doubt that the buggers are younger then us. It would still take many, many years to colonize and develope other worlds, among other technologies.
We'll see...
But if you allow me to contradict myself as well: In contrast to humans, the Hive Queen does not compete with other Hive Queens or species (as far as we know). I don't think that an over-growded home planet could have been motivation enough to invent star travel. She can regulate the number of workers at any time. And without real competition, for example a war, and only one individual mind, her progresses in technology were possibly even slower than ours.
Posted by Space Mogol (Member # 9146) on :
Thank you for agreeing with me.
Posted by Grim (Member # 9165) on :
They're most likely older then humans to reach our solar system, and this part of the galaxy, in the first place. It took us about 35 years to reach there star system, since the beginning EG took place in 2070, and the final battle in about 2075. I believe the earliest Bugger invasion took place around 2030. So, that would mean the Bugger star system, is about 35 light years away.
I am a bit rusty, so if there are any mistakes please say so. Thank you. Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Wow, the Buggers home system really was far away.
Posted by Grim (Member # 9165) on :
No, not really in Galactic scale, or really, any large other scale.
(If you aren't being sarcastic.)
Posted by clod (Member # 9084) on :
I'm pretty sure that somebody around here owes me a burgar.
*looks around quizzically*
And, yes I do like the grey poupon. Or, some sorta frenchified spicy mustard.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
How old do you think the buggers are, clod?
Posted by clod (Member # 9084) on :
How should I know?! I didn't invent them. But, I figure they should like mustard.
Posted by Pinky (Member # 9161) on :
quote:They're most likely older then humans to reach our solar system, and this part of the galaxy, in the first place. It took us about 35 years to reach there star system, since the beginning EG took place in 2070, and the final battle in about 2075. I believe the earliest Bugger invasion took place around 2030. So, that would mean the Bugger star system, is about 35 light years away.
Aren't we talking about millions of years, instead of decades? The age of the species, not of the Hive Queen.
Clod: Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
Wait, how do you know all the years?
Posted by dantesparadigm (Member # 8756) on :
I thought it was 2270, 2230, and 2275. I'm pretty sure it says somewhere in there that it's 400 years after the American Civil War.
Posted by Grim (Member # 9165) on :
It might have, and if you find out, please tell. It has been a very long time since I have read the book.
Ans also, even though it would only take 35 years or so to get here, they would still have done this many, many times to other systems, and probably have taken around 100,000-150,000 years, if they colonized the entire galaxy.
So they probably are a few million years old.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:and probably have taken around 100,000-150,000 years, if they colonized the entire galaxy.
There's no evidence in any of the books that they colonized the entire galaxy.
Posted by Grim (Member # 9165) on :
Just speculative, you know. They would most likely have colonized a lareg portion of the Galaxy. This would have taken thousands of years.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pinky:
quote:I sincerely doubt that the buggers are younger then us. It would still take many, many years to colonize and develope other worlds, among other technologies.
We'll see...
But if you allow me to contradict myself as well: In contrast to humans, the Hive Queen does not compete with other Hive Queens or species (as far as we know). I don't think that an over-growded home planet could have been motivation enough to invent star travel. She can regulate the number of workers at any time. And without real competition, for example a war, and only one individual mind, her progresses in technology were possibly even slower than ours.
Pinky I think that I have to disagree with you on this one. From the Hive Queen (book) Ender talks about how the Formics were at war with each other for a very long time. So it is possible that during that drawn out war between all of the Hive Queens they may have already begun to colonize other systems. And the fact that they were at war with one another suggests that their technology was not at a standstill.
But after they became the Formics we know (when they attacked Earth) They were already a unified species. And from Xenocide (book) we know that the Formics do not bother to learn more than they feel they need to know. Which is why they progressed slowly in technology after they became a unified mind of Hive Queens (not at war with one another).
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:They would most likely have colonized a lareg portion of the Galaxy.
Why do you think this is most likely? I think it is least likely.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
I can agree with grim. It is most likely, bucause they would want to make sure their empire survives, and have natural resources. Why would you say it is least likely. I have many reasons to back this up.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:bucause they would want to make sure their empire survives
They obviously weren't too concerned with that, since they kept all of the hive queens on One Freaking Planet!
Ret -- you are saying that they would expand as far as they could. I agree with you about that. But they were still in the beginning stages when they met the humans and their progress was cut short.
The Bugger homeworld is what -- about 35 light years away from earth? That's a *tiny* distance on a galactic scale -- practically next door neighbors. Why would they colonize most of the galaxy without ever bothering to check out a perfectly suitable planet right in their back yard?
Posted by Pinky (Member # 9161) on :
quote:Originally posted by Advent 115:
quote:Originally posted by Pinky:
quote:I sincerely doubt that the buggers are younger then us. It would still take many, many years to colonize and develope other worlds, among other technologies.
We'll see...
But if you allow me to contradict myself as well: In contrast to humans, the Hive Queen does not compete with other Hive Queens or species (as far as we know). I don't think that an over-growded home planet could have been motivation enough to invent star travel. She can regulate the number of workers at any time. And without real competition, for example a war, and only one individual mind, her progresses in technology were possibly even slower than ours.
Pinky I think that I have to disagree with you on this one. From the Hive Queen (book) Ender talks about how the Formics were at war with each other for a very long time. So it is possible that during that drawn out war between all of the Hive Queens they may have already begun to colonize other systems. And the fact that they were at war with one another suggests that their technology was not at a standstill.
But after they became the Formics we know (when they attacked Earth) They were already a unified species. And from Xenocide (book) we know that the Formics do not bother to learn more than they feel they need to know. Which is why they progressed slowly in technology after they became a unified mind of Hive Queens (not at war with one another).
Ah, okay. I must have missed the part with the bugger wars. Thanks for the information!
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pinky:
quote:Originally posted by Advent 115:
quote:Originally posted by Pinky:
quote:I sincerely doubt that the buggers are younger then us. It would still take many, many years to colonize and develope other worlds, among other technologies.
We'll see...
But if you allow me to contradict myself as well: In contrast to humans, the Hive Queen does not compete with other Hive Queens or species (as far as we know). I don't think that an over-growded home planet could have been motivation enough to invent star travel. She can regulate the number of workers at any time. And without real competition, for example a war, and only one individual mind, her progresses in technology were possibly even slower than ours.
Pinky I think that I have to disagree with you on this one. From the Hive Queen (book) Ender talks about how the Formics were at war with each other for a very long time. So it is possible that during that drawn out war between all of the Hive Queens they may have already begun to colonize other systems. And the fact that they were at war with one another suggests that their technology was not at a standstill.
But after they became the Formics we know (when they attacked Earth) They were already a unified species. And from Xenocide (book) we know that the Formics do not bother to learn more than they feel they need to know. Which is why they progressed slowly in technology after they became a unified mind of Hive Queens (not at war with one another).
Ah, okay. I must have missed the part with the bugger wars. Thanks for the information!
Your welcome.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Posted by clod (Member # 9084) on :
quote: quote:Originally posted by Pinky:
quote:Originally posted by Advent 115:
quote:Originally posted by Pinky:
quote:I sincerely doubt that the buggers are younger then us. It would still take many, many years to colonize and develope other worlds, among other technologies.
We'll see... [Big Grin]
But if you allow me to contradict myself as well: In contrast to humans, the Hive Queen does not compete with other Hive Queens or species (as far as we know). I don't think that an over-growded home planet could have been motivation enough to invent star travel. She can regulate the number of workers at any time. And without real competition, for example a war, and only one individual mind, her progresses in technology were possibly even slower than ours.
Pinky I think that I have to disagree with you on this one. From the Hive Queen (book) Ender talks about how the Formics were at war with each other for a very long time. So it is possible that during that drawn out war between all of the Hive Queens they may have already begun to colonize other systems. And the fact that they were at war with one another suggests that their technology was not at a standstill.
But after they became the Formics we know (when they attacked Earth) They were already a unified species. And from Xenocide (book) we know that the Formics do not bother to learn more than they feel they need to know. Which is why they progressed slowly in technology after they became a unified mind of Hive Queens (not at war with one another).
Ah, okay. I must have missed the part with the bugger wars. [Sleep] Thanks for the information!
Your welcome.
wow. lunacy? near a full moon? who woulda thunk it!
wicca-it!
PS. With grave reserves, I'm contemplating throwing in the towel on this one. Though, in earnest, I'm pretty sure I already did.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Everyone should also kindly keep in mind that the actuall galaxy bears no striking resemblence to anything in the movies. In reality the edge of our own solar sytem, the predicted oort cloud, is 50,000 times further away than the planet Pluto, and Pluto is one of what now is likely to be dozens if not scores of similar planetoid objects. In fact there have already been discovered planetoids which outmass Pluto twice over, and are more than twice as far from the sun. Suffice to say, our own solar system is virtually unknowable to us, so we can't go making predictions about what we would and wouldn't see.
Besides all that, the albido of a planet as far away as Planetoid Xena, twice the size of pluto and 2 billion miles further away, is virtually non-existent, thus there could be hundreds of such objects, or ships, or whatever you want, withing striking distance of earth, and we would never ever know a thing about it until the very last second.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Eh, that knowledge is trivial, as our solar system is not "50,000" times farther then Pluto. And by the way, 2003 UB 313's name is not Xena; that was a name suggested by the discovers, and probably will not be it's official name. So far, it has not been decided whether it will or will not be a planet, so the term, "planetoid" is not correct.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
By the way, how old do you think the Buggers are?
Posted by Pinky (Member # 9161) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: By the way, how old do you think the Buggers are?
Ouch! Déjà-vu...
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Hmmm, you know I'm not even sure that OSC can answer this. Many things like this simply aren't important to his stories. But I could be wrong.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
He should be able to answer this. I mean, when I invent an Alien species, I invent where they are from, how old they are, and everything else.
[ February 16, 2006, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Reticulum ]
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
I dunno. OSC's technique, whether it includes prehistory of alien species or not, seems to be working for him. Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: The Bugger homeworld is what -- about 35 light years away from earth?
Where is this 35 light year figure coming from? I can't remember any exact dates, but Mazer's children had grown from being toddlers to adults before he had even turned the ship around. I would think that the planets would be at least 70 light years away.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
No, not that far. Besides if they went from toddlers to adults when he turned his ship around, then as adults, I assume they would be 30-40. There is a quote in my other thread near the end, that says the Buggers must only have realized they lost the battle about 25 years after it. They probably knew where the home system was.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: He should be able to answer this. I mean, when I invent an Alien species, I invent where they are from, how old they are, and everything else.
Well of course.
And btw, the solar system IS in fact 50,000 times larger than the diameter of pluto's orbit, doesn't seem realistic, but it is.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Technically, when referring to the solar system, people mean the nine planets, and not 50,000 times farther then Pluto. That's 450,000,000,000,000. That's 450 Trillion miles, whilst Alpha Centauri is 25 Trillion Miles away. The Ooort cloud I believe does extend quite a ways, and may actually make it that far. I don't know, as I am not an astrophysicist, or astronomer, but 50,000 times farther then Pluto would not be considered the Solar system. I may be wrong though. If you can find solid evidence I will believe you.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
The oort cloud orbits at around 50,000 to 300,000 AU, but the approimate diameter of the solar system is avout 27.9 Trillion, and 450 trillion. I suggest checking out more sites, as verification is always goo. Which, considering thw 27.9, would make it's way into Alpha centauri. Again, if you find any solid proof, I will believe you.
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Aren't we talking about millions of years, instead of decades? The age of the species, not of the Hive Queen. ![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
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Thanks for the information!