This is topic Creating Humans in Outspace. *Spoilers for those who haven't read Xenocide* in forum Discussions About Orson Scott Card at Hatrack River Forum.
When Val and Peter were created in Outspace, what actually happened according to them? I mean, was it like being born only, a young adult with Ender's memory? Or was it like suddenly being pulled from their time into this one? It nevers mentions it in the book, but Val and Peter were so calm, it couldn't be something that was like all of the sudden. What was it like for them?
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
They simply were. They had no feeling of existing as anything before that moment other than the memories that Ender gave them from his own mind.
Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
But why were they so calm? Don't you think you'd wonder why you were suddenly in a strange room?
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Once again they had all the memories that Ender gave them, so for all anyone knows they expected to be there.
Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
But Ender never intended to make them.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Of course not, it was his sub-concious mind that made them both
Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
But how then? Ender couldn't have memorized both their genetic paterns.
Posted by Hank (Member # 8916) on :
It suggests in the novels somewhere that val's genetic pattern was flexible until she met the real valentine and then it conformed to that. As for peter, who knows if he is genetically identical to the original Hegemon?
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
If you have finished Xenocide then I wouldn't need to explain this principle to you.
Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
I finished Xenocide a while ago, I remember all of what was said, but still. It can be confusing if you think too much about it. Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
In Xenocide they talked about the possibility that perhaps new Valentine's genetic code was not so exact until she came in contact with the original Valentine. And as far as Peter goes there isn't really a way to tell how exact his DNA is.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:And as far as Peter goes there isn't really a way to tell how exact his DNA is.
Unless they dig up the original Peter.
Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
I don't think they could get permission from Congress to di g up the Hedgemon.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I'm not sure what kind of condition the body would be in after 3000 years, either.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: I'm not sure what kind of condition the body would be in after 3000 years, either.
Thank you. I mean how much would be left of his corpse after over 3000 years?
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
The other possibility is that in order for the Young Val and the Young Peter to be who they were in the physical universe, they had to follow all of the rules of the physical universe, including having a genetic code that prescribes their behavior, personality, etc. Of course, this nullifies all of those conversations in Xenocide regarding free will, etc., but hey!
Posted by formic rising (Member # 9172) on :
peter and young val are instantly aware of their making. even before ender is aware of how they came to be. this is to say that they came into existence with a sort of knowing and familiarity of their own (though instantly made) bodies. what no one could understand of their making, they could easily explain. the only way i could imagine that they'd even be surprised of their creation is if ender were to create them with an extreme sense of confusion. as for ender holding their genetic code, it's still a bit hazey to me. is it possible that the philotic connection between ender and valentine could help in the creation of young val? as for peter, isnt it mentioned in COTM that philotic connections can linger for long after a body has died? it is said that some memories can be retained by aiua alone. perhaps it's by this method that ender could retain or even call (willingly or not) upon the genetic code or even basic information of these bodies. it would make ender, in a way, a sort of telepath. i'd imagine if any human could do something similiar to the buggers it would be ender. but hey, this is probably far from being what OSC had in mind.. but it's something that i've been toying with since i read this thread.
ps- this is my first reply to anything at the hatrack forums. forgive me if my imaginings barely scrape the surface of the series- i dont get to chat about it nearly as often as i wish.
Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
Well, yes, true. But then wouldn't that mean the Peter's genetic code is still scrambled?
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
I'm thinking I read something about how the two bodies had the genetic code of Peter and Val because that was the only possible code that would fit the two personas Ender saw himself as...
Or I could just be way off base and made that up myself. I'll look through the book again.
Posted by formic rising (Member # 9172) on :
in the theory that peter/val's creation involved ender's philotic connection to them (not to mention the personas of the two he sub-conciously believes to make up himself) it would be exact information that is exchanged in the same way hive queens share memories and the way the descolada sends "darts" of information.
Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
Actually, CRash, that's a pretty good theory. It wasn't in the book but I think at least part of it is right.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I'm thinking I read something about how the two bodies had the genetic code of Peter and Val because that was the only possible code that would fit the two personas Ender saw himself as...
If you believe that then what you're essentially saying is that DNA determines personality, which isn't really true. It may determine general disposition to a certain extent, but anyone who's spent any time around identical twins knows that they can have completely different personalities.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Well, would it be a huge suprise that perhaps its not such a huge thing. Espesially if you consider that Peter, Val, and Ender are genetically related, so why would it be a suprise if most of Peters genes turned out to be borrowed from Enders. After all they are brothers.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Here's a thought: if I recall correctly, it's suggested that when a person dies his/her aiua goes back "Outside". While we are alive, our aiua is what "remembers" and holds together our physical pattern; every single atom of it. So perhaps Ender began the process of creating Peter II with his aiua seeking out the original Peter's, and learning the physical pattern from it. That would allow him to incorporate even Peter's DNA into the copy. As was suggested with regards to Valentine, her DNA may not have been an exact match until she came "inside" and aquired the pattern from the real Val's aiua.
Posted by formic rising (Member # 9172) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: Here's a thought: if I recall correctly, it's suggested that when a person dies his/her aiua goes back "Outside". While we are alive, our aiua is what "remembers" and holds together our physical pattern; every single atom of it. So perhaps Ender began the process of creating Peter II with his aiua seeking out the original Peter's, and learning the physical pattern from it. That would allow him to incorporate even Peter's DNA into the copy. As was suggested with regards to Valentine, her DNA may not have been an exact match until she came "inside" and aquired the pattern from the real Val's aiua.
yes! that's what i was thinking when i wrote my last reply.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
I don't know--that theory seems a little bit of a stretch to me. Why would the aiua contain genetic information? I've never heard that one. And Ender's aiua "seeking out" Peter's Outside? 1. Why would it do that and 2. What happens to aiuas when people die? Just a couple of nitpicks. Interesting thought, though.
Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
Wait, are you talking about when Ender was born or when he created Peter?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by CRash: I don't know--that theory seems a little bit of a stretch to me. Why would the aiua contain genetic information? I've never heard that one. And Ender's aiua "seeking out" Peter's Outside? 1. Why would it do that and 2. What happens to aiuas when people die? Just a couple of nitpicks. Interesting thought, though.
Our aiua is supposed to be what what holds every atom of our bodies together, including the atoms and molecules that make up our DNA. For instance, look what happens to Ender's body and Miro's crippled body once their aiuas abandon them; they simply crumble. So yes, it seems that the aiua maintains DNA while we're alive, so perhaps it still "remembers" that information after our bodies are dead. As for what happens to the aiua when someone dies, as I said, I think it just returns Outside. Perhaps it eventually takes on a new pattern (reincarnation?).
In any case, Ender's aiua seeking out Peter's doesn't seem too unreasonable when one considers that aiuas are philotically connected, and that time and distance appear to have no meaning Outside. So it's not like it would require effort to find it. It probably just required a subconscious desire. That's just my theory, anyway. I haven't even read Xenocide in a while, so I could be off on some points.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
I was always under the impression that although an aiua "ruled" over the philotes and body and thus DNA, holding them together, it didn't contain any copies of the information. Why would it? Probably it would recognize a familiar assembly--as Ender's does in CotM. I considered it separate from physical makeup, but I may be wrong. I don't remember what the books have to say on this.
One thing on this theory--if the aiua is similar to a soul, and it remembers the being it was, wouldn't the connection between Peter's aiua and Ender's mean that not only would the correct genetic information be retrieved from the aiua, but the correct personality and impulses as well? Why then would Peter Xerox not act as the original did? I don't know how to get around this contradiction; do you have an explanation? I like the idea, but as it is this block is stopping me from accepting it as a real possibility.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I see what you're saying. Nothing says for certain that the aiua "remembers" the physical details of the body, but then, we don't know that it doesn't, so I'm willing to accept it as a possible explanation.
As for memory and personality etc., I can think of a few possible theories, but they are just that, theories. For one, how much of a person's personality/memories are connected to the aiua is unknown. I believe this is even brought up in CotM. Therefore, it's hard to say anything for certain. But we can be fairly sure that because Peter II was governed by Ender's aiua, Ender's perception of who Peter was got forced into the copy's personality. Thus Peter II isn't quite the real Peter, nor is he quite Ender's version of Peter. Some of the real Peter's personality might have come from his original aiua along with the physical details, but it's mashed together with Ender's version of Peter, thus creating something new. The new Peter can have identical DNA to the original though, because Ender wouldn't have had any notion of Peter's DNA to contradict it.
Does that make any sense at all? I'm really just guessing here.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
Yeah, I could buy that explanation. When you put it that way, it does work as a sort of plausible theory. Thanks for the clarification.
Posted by formic rising (Member # 9172) on :
but the fact that jane's aiua takes the dominant personality of the val-body makes this worth arguing. i suppose ender's personality would have taken dominance in the peter body had he still held the will to keep going. he was tired. 3,000 years must be taxing on the soul, so to speak. peter found a strong will for himself and great ambition thus giving him the body but he's aware of having ender's aiua and even feels an entirety of having ender with him. doesnt he say that he wishes not to draw on ender-memories unless he needed to? i'd imagine that if all of this could be involved with an aiua moving from body to body that somewhere dna could be found (for information purposes) within a philotic connection.
Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
*wince*I didn't read that far in Children of the Mind yet.
Posted by formic rising (Member # 9172) on :
oh no jeesh! i'm so sorry! sadf;kj that's so terrible! i'm a monster!
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
See what you have done formic? You have ruined an OSC book for this poor devoted reader. You should be ashamed. *shades head*
Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
It's ok. I've gotten far enough that it didn't surprised me too much.
Posted by oolung (Member # 8995) on :
Jane's an aiua, but as she lives in the network it would be quite hard for her to have a dna (unless a very scattered one or something). And Ender's aiua was wandering 'homeless' for some time between his death and his 'incorporating' into Peter's body. So I think an aiua is something completely separate from a dna.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
So is a computer, but that doesn't mean that I can't store someone's nucleotide sequence on my hard drive.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
If you have finished Xenocide then I wouldn't need to explain this principle to you.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
(unless a very scattered one or something). And Ender's aiua was wandering 'homeless' for some time between his death and his 'incorporating' into Peter's body. So I think an aiua is something completely separate from a dna.