This is topic Par Tutatis! Kuruksetra, Ragnarok, Armaggedon and... in forum Discussions About Orson Scott Card at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
 
Chale, kids.

Scott is a mormon, so I wanted to start a threat about his views on spirituality, especially those regarding ... eh... the end of the world thinnie.

Me Orc Shaman.

Well, actually, dwarf warrior.. But anyhow, my deep spiritual points of view comre primarily from Dungeons & Dragons, and of course, Carlos Castañeda, Tim Leary et all...

But although I am not too clear on the basics of the game still.. (after decades of playing!), I do have enough common sense to smell trouble spiritually. Allah is kicking ass, and in 'The Crusade II' the Christians are loosing spiritual ground with some really angry muslims. Orc Shamans could not really care less about Christians and Muslims...

But a great Jihad is a great Jihad, and we are seeing one on T.V.
 
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Um, I don't understand.

What does this mean?
 
Posted by sarcare (Member # 8736) on :
 
I think it is either eschatological or scatological, though it could go either way.
 
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Didn't Carlos Castenada get exposed as a fake?

I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere.

Like his great spirtual journey took place in a grubby apartment somewhere...or rather, his grubby mind.

All those hallucinogens, ya know.

[ February 25, 2006, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Bob_Scopatz ]
 
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
 
Just to be contentuous I will point out that several famous spiritual journeys took place in some pretty grubby joints.
 
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Oops, sorry, I didn't see your post and just edited mine. Yes, but Mr. Castanada claimed to have taken his "journey" in the Sonoran desert with a Yaqui indian shaman. The man apparently never existed outside of Carlos' own brain. And Mr. Castanada basically established a personality cult so he could copulate with females.

Not a healthy role model from what I've been able to find out about him.
 
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
 
Well..

More of an explanation is in order I see..

Lets' start with the basics. There is a war on Irak, now to you non-history buffs, that's Babylon there, the Great Whore of the Bible. So a little bible prophecy is coming true thanks to the Anarchy President (or the Burning Bush)... I think I heard his Skull and Bones name is Magog, but who knows?

Yeah.. the basics. War on Irak. That means, far as I know, WWIII. Now during WWII, you really couldn't be neutral. The Swiss financed everybody, so their neutrality was a sham. No, World Wars do not count neutrality as a valid poisition.

With us or against us...

Anyhow, since I am a drug user, I guess I am 'against US', and being half-Mexican that means I have every right to defend national security from my end... the US did declare a 'war on drugs' eh?

Now, all of the prophecies of all of the religions speak of a 'big war' to end all wars before some mighty bearded white dude saves us all from ourselves.

Scott is a Mormon, so... here's a little taste of what I found out about the Mormons and ... politics.

Prophecies in the Book of MormonThe FutureJump to the WP Forum

The Book of Mormon
Prophecies for the Modern World

Related Topics:
Book of Revelation
Guide to the Future
Gog and Magog
World Gets Worse
Seven Plagues
Second Coming
Beyond the End


What is The Book of Mormon?
In 1823, the prophet Joseph Smith learned of a book written by ancient
Americans. It testifies of Jesus Christ. The book was named after a man called
Mormon, who abridged the history of his people. He obtained the book in 1827,
and translated most of what we now have in the year 1829. The book was published
in 1830, and shortly after that the church was organized. Naturally, non-members
nicknamed the church "Mormon" after this remarkable book.
For your own free copy of the Book of Mormon, visit the official LDS web site,
and follow the links. Or read it online.
Download a Free Book

"PROOF" — All the Evidence for the Book of Mormon in One Place
The simplest way to find out if the book is genuine is to read it and then ask
God in prayer. But if you don't feel comfortable doing this, there is plenty of
physical evidence too. A few years ago it put together a book summarizing all
the evidence that supports the Book of Mormon. The contents page looks like
this:
PART ONE: WHAT’S SO GOOD ABOUT THE BOOK OF MORMON?
Millions of lives have been changed
Proof about God
How to make a perfect world
Life after death, and other questions answered
Prophecies
Get nearer to God than by any other book
PART TWO: FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
How do I get an answer from the Holy Spirit?
Is the Bible not enough?
Has the Book of Mormon been proven?
Do most scientists believe in it?
Where are the gold plates now?
Where are the ruined cities?
Questions the critics ask
PART THREE: MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE
Classic evidence
A case study
Mountains of evidence
Bibliography

The majority of the book is the last section, "mountains of evidence." It
includes:
Bible evidence
People who saw the gold plates
Was Joseph Smith reliable?
Statistical proof
A philosophical approach
Semitic names
Literary style
The Dead Sea Scrolls and other ancient documents
New World evidence
Jesus in America
A summary of names and dates
Dreams and visions
As I said, the book was completed a few years ago, and I would probably do it
differently now. It is only a summary of the evidence — each point would need
many pages to examine in any detail. Some points are stronger than others. But
it is still (as far as I know) the only guide anywhere to ALL the different
forms of evidence. It is offered "as is" — it could do with being revised, but
I don't see it as a high priority.
Click here to download the whole book in Microsoft Word format ( zipped).
Click here to download an Adobe Acrobat PDF version in a new window.
For More In-depth Evidence:
As noted, that book was just a summary, and may be out of date. For more
detailed analyses and scholarly evidence, visit FARMS — the Foundation for
Ancient Research and Mormon Studies.
The Book of Mormon as a Book of Predictions
Can it help us to prepare for the future?
Introduction:
The Nephite history mainly deals with the years before the first coming of
Christ. It closely parallels the history of the modern world in the years before
the second coming of Christ. This is hardly surprising, as the book was given to
help us prepare for the Second Coming. For simplicity's sake, let us compare
Nephite history in the years BC (Before Christ, according to their own
calendar), with modern history in years B2000 (Before the year 2000).
A Note About the Year 2000:
The year 2000 is an arbitrary date set by the current consensus. There is no
real reason to believe that this date is a fixed date on the Lord's calendar.
There is allowance in all prophecy for some deviation in dates unless specific
time periods are mentioned, as in the dated prophecies. However, this is not a
cop-out, because we do not actually know from what precise point in time the
Lord is measuring these events. With that in mind, we can conduct an interesting
exercise in comparative history.
The following historical periods are based on the periods identified in the
Mitchell-Beazley timeline of world history, and the Penguin Atlas of World
History.
The Renaissance of the Tribe of Joseph and the Modern Renaissance:
Nephite:
The Nephite world has its roots in the decay of ancient Israel in the sixth
century BC. The tribe of Joseph gained a new start when the prophet Lehi
rediscovered the lands we call the Americas. The majority eventually embraced
the existing culture, and this came to shape the Nephite world (see 1 Nephi for
details).
Modern:
The Modern world has its roots in the decay of the medieval world in the sixth
century B2000. The western world gained a new start when scholars and traders
rediscovered the Greco-Roman writings. The majority eventually embraced these
ideas, which came to shape modern world.
Nephite History and Modern History:
Nephite:
After showing the origins of the Nephites, the Book of Mormon races through
several centuries in just a few pages in order to focus on the period of
interest. This period started with the discovery of Zarahemla (sometime between
279 and 130 BC — the Book of Mormon does not give more specific dates). This
event signaled the physical movement of the entire people. Nephite ideas were
changed forever (see Omni 1:12-19 and later books).
Modern:
Modern history, historians tend to agree, began with the American and French
revolutions (224 and 211 B2000), an event that signaled physical changes for the
entire western world. Modern ideas were changed forever.
The Age of Discovery:
Nephite:
This period also saw tremendous discoveries due to the greater travel (between
the lands of Nephi and Zarahemla), discoveries of new ideas (meeting the
Jaredites), and discovering lost scriptures – the book of Ether (see Omni
1:27-29; Mosiah chapters 7-8, 17-18, 22-24).
Modern:
This period also saw tremendous discoveries due to the greater world travel,
scientific discoveries, and discovering lost scriptures (the Book of Mormon).
Note that all the parallels from here onwards take place after the Book of
Mormon was published. There is no possibility of faking them.

The Age of Nationalism:
Nephite:
These forces led to an upsurge in Nationalism. See for example, Zeniff's
attempts to not just defend his people, but his irrational and obsessive desire
to recapture his ancestral lands, supported by many (but not all) of the
Nephites. This was the mood circa 200 BC and onward (see Mosiah 9:1-3 and
chapters 9-24).
Modern:
These forces led to an upsurge in Nationalism. According to historians, this
characterized the international mood circa 200 B2000 and onward (that is, the
early 19th Century).
The Age of Colonialism:
Nephite:
Naturally, this obsession with peoples' "rightful homeland" led to conflicts.
Ultimately, the stronger nations controlled the weaker nations as colonies. The
key date was 120 BC, when the Lamanites controlled Noah's kingdom (see Mosiah
19:15; 21:3).
Modern:
Naturally, this obsession with peoples' "rightful homeland" led to conflicts.
Ultimately, the stronger nations controlled the weaker nations as colonies. The
key date was 116 B200, when the treaty of Berlin (AD 1884) carved up Africa for
the Europeans.
The Most Significant 100 Years:
Nephite:
If you calculate the average number of pages devoted to each year, the most
important period in Nephite history (apart from the year when Jesus visited in
person), was the "reign of the judges." The Nephite calendar was based on this
100 years, from 92 BC to AD 9 (remember that there is no "year zero"). It was a
century of tremendous changes (see below, see Alma 1:1 to 3 Nephi 2:4-8).
Modern:
Practically all historians agree that, whichever way you measure it, the
twentieth century (100 — 0 B2000) is the most significant 100 years in the
history of the world (apart perhaps from the ministry of Jesus). It was a
century of tremendous changes (see below).
The First Great War:
Nephite:
The year 87 BC saw a war that was so great that the dead could not be numbered
(see Alma 2-3, especially 3:1).
Modern:
The years 86-84 B2000 saw a war that was so great that it was called "the war to
end all wars."
The "Roaring Twenties" and Great Depression:
Nephite:
The 80s and 70s BC saw a great obsession with money. But this led to a decline
in religious observance. The intelligentsia (such as the lawyers) increasingly
pursued money for its own sake. Things went wrong, and we begin to see great
masses of the poor (see Alma 4:6-8; chapters 11, 32).
Modern:
The 80s and 70s B2000 saw a great obsession with money. But this led to a
decline in religious observance. The intelligentsia (such as the investors, many
of whom are lawyers) increasingly pursued money for its own sake. Things went
wrong, and we begin to see great masses of the poor.
The Second Great War:
Nephite:
Although there had been small wars since the last big one, they were
insignificant compared to what happened between 76 and 60 BC (though not
everyone was fighting for all this time). This was the greatest and most
terrible war in Nephite history (see Alma 28:2 to 62:41).
Modern:
Although there had been small wars since the last big one, they were
insignificant compared to what happened between 61 and 55 B2000 (though not
everyone was fighting for all this time). This was the greatest and most
terrible war in modern history.
The Postwar Period:
Nephite:
The Nephite postwar period was characterized by an economic boom, and new
possibilities in travel lead to ordinary people traveling to distant parts (see
Alma 62:48; 63:4-9; Helaman 3:3-9; 3:24-25).
Modern:
The modern postwar period was characterized by an economic boom, and new
possibilities in travel lead to ordinary people traveling to distant parts.
The 1960s:
Nephite:
The old ideas of who is "Nephite" and "Lamanite" changed (see Helaman 5:50,
6:31). There is an increasingly significant "youth" culture (see Alma 56; 3
Nephi 1:29). There is a decline in religious faith generally (see Helaman
16:15-21). But the true church has some great successes (for example, the
brothers Nephi and Lehi).
Modern:
Old Institutions are losing respect. There is the rise of the "youth" culture
(with the creation of the economically independent "teenager" in the 1950s).
There is a decline in general religious observance. Despite this, with new ideas
being tried and tested, the true church also grows rapidly.
The Dominance of "Christian" Civilization:
Nephite:
These processes led to Nephite culture beginning to dominate their world. Even
old enemies (e.g. the Lamanites) began to follow their ways. The barriers began
to break down earlier, but the key date was 13 BC, when Lamanites officially
joined the Nephite church. (Note that the Nephites are referred to as
"Christian" because of their heritage, but their behavior did not always reflect
this (see Helaman 11:21 — the process began as early as Helaman 6:8).
Modern:
These processes led to Western culture beginning to dominate their world. Even
old enemies (e.g. the Communist countries) began to follow their ways. The
barriers began to break down earlier, but the key date was 11 B2000, when the
Berlin wall came down. (Note that western civilization is referred to as
"Christian" because of its heritage, but its behavior does not always reflect
this.)
The Major Dated Prophecy:
Nephite:
Everyone knew that AD1 was important to the Christians, even if they did not
know much about the prophecies of the Messiah. But after the date had passed for
a few years, most people began to forget the prophecies and assume that they
would not be fulfilled. Just when they did not expect it (34 years later), the
final prophecies were all fulfilled in a dramatic way. The wicked were destroyed
by environmental catastrophes, and Jesus descended from the sky (see 1 Nephi
10:4; Helaman 14:1-2; 3 Nephi 2:1-3).
Modern:
Many people feel that AD2000 is important to the Christians, even if they do not
know much about the prophecies of the seventh seal. But after the date has
passed for a few years, most people will begin to forget the prophecies and
assume that they will not be fulfilled. Just when they do not expect it, the
final prophecies will all be fulfilled in a dramatic way. The wicked will be
destroyed by environmental catastrophes, and Jesus will descend from the sky in
His great glory and power. The prophecies have all been fulfilled so far, so why
should this be any different?
Notes:
The near certainty that the Nephite peoples (especially their Lamanite
companions) met others when they arrived, and the influence of native American
culture on the new arrivals, has been well documented. It is too complex to
discuss here, but FARMS is a good place to start.
The Bottom Line
The Book of Revelation gives the main events preceding the Second Coming. But
the Book of Mormon gives the detail.

....

Since I am not a Mormon (more like an Orc Shaman), I'd like to know where Scott stands on this point of view.

Scott...? Yer hiddin' under the bed yet?
 
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
 
But no, no, no... I have it all wrong. Disregard all what I said above.

This is a spiritual thread.

I'd like to know Scott's views on:

1. Vedanta
2. Biblical Prophecy
3. Mayan Prophecy
4. Ethogen use

... for now..

there's lots more o' that where that came from.. but lets start with those, eh, Scott?
 
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
 
Why don't you go to a Sunday Service with people who have the authority to teach this stuff?
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
When you and OSC worked on the same movie together, did it burn your skin when he touched you?
 
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
 
Cherios.. I have a prejudice against Bona Fide Spiritual Masters. I prefer a cactus.

Tom... Yes.
 
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
 
I am currently studying the bible with the Jehova's Witnesses. I am an open minded fellow.

Too open.
 
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
Is English your first language?
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I'd guess at "yes." Robin appears to enjoy being deliberately mythic. [Smile]
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
quote:
Yes, but Mr. Castanada claimed to have taken his "journey" in the Sonoran desert with a Yaqui indian shaman. The man apparently never existed outside of Carlos' own brain.
Oooh! Kinda like Homer Simpson!
 
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
 
TL, no. Spanish is. I did my HS in SC, tho, so I should be reasonably proficient.

I never got hired as a writer because of spelling and grammar mistakes.
 
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
 
I could give you kids a spoiler of my next project... But I fear that if I do that, it might get some of you killed...
 
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
 
BTW... Where IS the Holy Avenger of Hatrack River? I was kind of hoping my nonsense would have made him take notice...

I might just have to pester y'all a little longer to incur the wrath of Great Scott and his Howling Commandoes!
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Frankly, if it gets to that point, you'll probably be pointedly ignored.
 
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
 
Touche, Tom.

No I don't think Scott would ignore me on his own fansite. Actually, none of the things I say here are against Scott in any way, on the contrary, like I said, I am his big fan.

No, I would call these entries a little experimental sharing of consciousness. Scott and I comre from vastly diferent worlds. Scott's world and mine need to meet halfways, I think. I also think that BORDERTOWN was very much about that, a meeting of two worlds.

Funny, I began this thread as the 'spiritual thread', then, shortly after, it became the 'please don't beat on Scott' thread, and another 'spiritual thread' appread, the bit about Scott's ministry.

Spiritual matters are the only thing left to discuss when poiltics turns ugly.
 
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Spirtual matters are the last refuge of the obscurantist.
 
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
 
I must say, your take on what OSC might believe about the end times is as hard to understand as your words. Mormons, especially of OSC's level headed nature, tend to view the Last Days with far less dramatic (or melodramatic) flair. I won't speak for him on the issue, but to be honest I am not sure where to start even if I did. Maybe if you asked specific questions rather than flow of thought commentary. Lets just say, you are no William Blake.
 
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
 
No, I am not a Blake, nor a Shakespeare, not any of that. But your need to point that out to me (seeing as how my spelling and grammer mistakes are so obvious) speaks volumes about you too!

As for specific questions, I think that I have done already no?
 
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
 
One last shot in defence of Castañeda. Imaginary folks can be far more real than real ones!
 
Posted by Kagehi (Member # 9123) on :
 
Funny thing... First century Christians, you know, the ones that founded Catholocism, believed that the end of the world had already taken place with the Roman conquest of much of the middle east and the destruction of the Jewish temple. This was believed because a side by side comparison of the campaign of Titus Flavius (the Flavians where also the first "official" Catholics) and the Stories in the Bible of Jesus have "exact" parallels with respect to general events, places and apparent chronology, also the Prophecies in the Book of David exactly match the dates of when the war started, when certain events took place and when the final city fell.

Of course, some evidence exists now that suggests they fudged the last date by one year, to make it fit. However, it was widely believed back then. So there is suposed to be how many second comings? lol Biggest problem with prophecy is always that you never know what it "fits" until after the fact, and if your religion starts to look irrelevent you can always quietly spread the word that Rome really wasn't the 1,000 year peaceful civilization predicted, so belief that the end had already happened was some sort of clerical error, thus true believers might see it happen on <insert *nearly* every single months, day and year since the prophecy was first written>.

Its like saying, "I predict there will be a volcano erupting on the North American continent!", then continually fudging the date, over and over, until it actually happens. Makes for good religion, but its damn useless for prediction.
 
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
 
Kag..

Yep. I like predictions that have actual dates and names attached. Like Nostradamus' 'Hister', or Edgar Casey.

The Jehovas' Witnesses however, seem to have it down to a system. They always have the right answer to 'when' it happened. That's why I like to go to their class.
 
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
 
Bet they don't have any answers about the time of the Apostasy.
 
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
 
Oh wait, I think they do.

Well they're wrong!
 


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