quote: Italians should be so lucky as to get pizza as good as ours.
I've seen a lot of whacked out things on this website-- Universe People, Lizard People, Cat People...Liberal Mormons...
But this really takes the cake, and I'm going to have to call you on it.
Italian pizza is OBJECTIVELY and QUANTIFIABLY better than anything by the same name in the US.
Fly me to Italy, and I'll prove it to you. I spent two years there, and I can take you to the best pizza place in the world.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
I BEG TO DIFFER!!
The US may have lower standards when it comes to many other foods, but it takes the pie when it comes to pizza.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I offered my credentials: two years of wandering the cities and towns of Italy, tasting the wares.
Back up your slander with something more than capitalization, scalawag.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Where have you had pizza in the U.S., Scott? That's the real question.
Posted by PUNJABEE (Member # 7359) on :
Pizza is Hungarian anyway.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
I've never been to Italy, so I can't say anything about real Italian pizza. But here in the U.S. of A.--there's nothing like a nice slice of plain cheese pizza from a New York pizzeria, the kind you fold in half to eat and the oil drips from it, lots of oregano in the seasoning--yum. I've never developed a taste for the various other forms of pizza found around the country.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Uh-uh. The best pizza is Hawaiian.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
Oh, Joldo. Oh dear oh dear. *shakes head sadly*
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Uh-uh. The best pizza is Hawaiian.
Ick.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
Where did you spend your time in Italy? I spent two years in Italy myself and I much prefer American "authentic" Italian pizza to actual Italian pizza. I was mostly in southern Italy, San Vito de Normani, Caravigno, Brindisi area and their pizza was not that great at all. Could be regional differences in pizza making just like we have in the States?
Posted by Kit the Odd (Member # 4975) on :
You know, when we can't even get people to agree on thin-crust, pan-style, hand-tossed, or deep-dish let alone hawaian, pepperoni, meat-lovers, plain cheese, supreme, chicken & bacon (one of my favorites), or any other set of toppings...
I think Italian vs US is going to end up being a matter of personal opinion more than anything else.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
The best pizza in the world comes from Café La Brezza in the Marina Grande of Capri.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I dunno, Late Night Pie in Midtown Houston is the best pizza I've ever had.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
The best pizza in the world is made by me. No sauce. I challenge anybody to make something better than that.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I make a damn fine pizza myself. Though OSC has never had it. Maybe I should FedEx him one.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Okay, everyone make a pizza and mail it to OSC. Personally, I'm gonna use USPS, cause my pizza needs to ferment a little.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
I have had italian pizza and it does not have that thick and mmmmmmm feeling that a huge slice of pepperoni/sausage/extra cheese with oregano and basil pizza does...
Homemade all the way...
I dont think I can mail my pizza though,
because it is EXPLOSIVE!
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
by the way, I am not a northerner who has moved to the south to take advantage of economic peril!
Didnt think I knew the definition of scalawag did you!
you carpetbagger!
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Um. Actually, a scalawag is a southerner who joins the Republican party during Reconstruction. It's the carpetbaggers that are northerners moving south. Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
I thought a scalawag was someone who doesn't know the difference between a possessive and a contraction.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
LOL, thanks for the link, Papa. I'll have to remember that catchy little jingle!
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
That is not what I was told.
I was... oops.
I was wrong.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
I love Strong Bad. The ultimate authority on everything.
Posted by Catseye1979 (Member # 5560) on :
Hmmm...the best pizza I ever had was made by a really good cook in a small fishing village in Mexico.....beans on a pizza....who would've thought....
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Old Chicago pizza in Omaha used to make awesome steak pizza, with steak sauce instead of red sauce. It ruled so much, I can't even tell you.
Of course, it was a promotional item, and they only made it for about 6 months.
Way to go places, always discontinuing your best tasting food. D-holes!
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
The word scalawag has historical connotations, true. However, the word today has lost that meaning. It no longer has anything to do with the Reconstruction.
quote:I spent two years in Italy myself and I much prefer American "authentic" Italian pizza to actual Italian pizza. I was mostly in southern Italy, San Vito de Normani, Caravigno, Brindisi area and their pizza was not that great at all. Could be regional differences in pizza making just like we have in the States?
You're in denial. You've been so long away from good food, you've imagined something that doesn't exist-- namely that the American profanity known as "pizza" resembles the Italian divinity of the same name.
I served a mission for the LDS church in northern Italy-- in Chivasso, Cuneo, Settimo Torinese, and Milano. So I know pizza, and I know divinity. And the twain meet and merge in Italy. Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
quote:Hmmm...the best pizza I ever had was made by a really good cook in a small fishing village in Mexico.....beans on a pizza....who would've thought....
Yes, And if you forget to order "tomato" you don't get tomato sauce on it eather. The gringos sometimes call it quesadilla.
Posted by bCurt (Member # 5476) on :
The best pizza I have ever had was at an Italian restaurant in Belgium. The American "Italian" pizza I have had to date doesn't come remotely close.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Scott, pizza is specificaly Southern Italian/Neopolitan and was not known in N. Italy until introduced by Americans. The Pizza in Capri is better than in Florence or Rome.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
The best Pizza is my homemade pizza. Thick crust, plenty of pepperoni, ample cheese, and sauce spiced just right. Wow… nothing better. Yum.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:pizza is specificaly Southern Italian/Neopolitan and was not known in N. Italy until introduced by Americans.
You're going to have to back that statement up.
At any rate-- the best pizza is made by two brothers from southern Italy in a ghetto outside Torino. The second best pizza in the world is made by a pizzeria owned by another southern italian family in the town of Chivasso.
Posted by Aryei (Member # 9025) on :
I make the best bagel pizzas in existence :-]. sorta- not that I've tried anyone elses. And Hawaiian pizza does rock. at least in Maui, there's a neat lil' place to the north? of Haleakala - northeastish, near the shore, I forgot the name of the place. Oh, and pizza in Greece is almost as good as upstate NY pizza, which I like because most of the places I get it from make it less oily and saucy and more cheezy and crunchy than in NYC. I don't so much like the grease when it's spilling, I like it better when it's absorbed or not even noticable.
Posted by Aryei (Member # 9025) on :
but, yeah, overall, America has pizza down, and I'm sure at least half our states do it equal or better than any other nation. for now.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
"Modern pizza is attributed to baker Raffaele Esposito of Naples in the Italian region of Campania. In 1889 Esposito, working in the pizzeria "Pietro... e basta così" (literally "Peter... and that's enough", established in 1890 and still operating under the name "Pizzeria Brandi"), baked three different pizze[1] for the visit of King Umberto I and Queen Margherita of Savoy. The pizza preferred by the Queen was very patriotic, evoking the Italian flag in its colors of green (basil leaves), white (mozzarella), and red (tomatoes). It was named Pizza Margherita in honor of the Queen. This set the standard by which today's pizza evolved and spread worldwide[1]." —Wikipedia
Posted by chickenfeet (Member # 9451) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk: Okay, everyone make a pizza and mail it to OSC. Personally, I'm gonna use USPS, cause my pizza needs to ferment a little.
Yum! Do you put sauerkraut on your pizza too? Delicious!
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Pelegius, this is the part of your statement that needs explanation...
quote:pizza ... was not known in N. Italy until introduced by Americans.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:The best pizza I have ever had was at an Italian restaurant in Belgium.
Oddly, the best pizza I've ever had was in a Belgian restaurant in Haifa, Israel. Seriously.
Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
I thought the Chinese (Or Japanese, I can't remember which) made the first "pizzas". Then someone (Marco Polo?) brought the idea to Italy, where it became our modern pizza. Either way, homemade pizza is the best, if you can make it.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
M Cow, Old Chicago still does make some awesome pizzas, that's for sure. I do chicken with red onions and sometimes garlic. None of that thin crust crap either! Deep dish all the way. I have never been there when they've made the pizza you're speaking of.
When was it you were visiting our fine city? Next time let us know you're coming and we'll have lunch!
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
I almost wasn't going to read this thread because it was going to be about Bush, or gay marriage. Phew.
Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
I think it all has to do with the environment in which the pizza is consumed. I don't think an Italian pizza made in Italy would taste nearly as good if eaten within the ambiance of a family room. Nor would a deep dish greasy Chicago style pizza taste good if it was being eaten outside on a street cafe, served by heavily accented, broken-english speaking, Italian waiters.
With the right backdrops though, the respectable personal Italian delights and American family pizzas can not be compared in any manner. They are like different species that share a genus; both wonderful in their own sense.
Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
Hmm, what about pizza eaten in a parent's bedroom while watching 'Corpse Bride' and 'Theif Lord'?
Posted by bCurt (Member # 5476) on :
quote:Oddly, the best pizza I've ever had was in a Belgian restaurant in Haifa, Israel. Seriously.
Actually, not too surprising. Some of the best pizza around here is made by a Venezuelan immigrant who also makes some great Gyros.
[ June 26, 2006, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: bCurt ]
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Scott, oh, that is something I was told in Italy by a Belgian folk singer/art historian and is thus, like all my other travel stories, perfectly and completly accurate; however, I am only truely infallible when speaking ex cathedra.
Posted by Kit the Odd (Member # 4975) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jeesh: Hmm, what about pizza eaten in a parent's bedroom while watching 'Corpse Bride' and 'Theif Lord'?
Papa John's or Pizza Hut delivery.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:You're in denial. You've been so long away from good food, you've imagined something that doesn't exist-- namely that the American profanity known as "pizza" resembles the Italian divinity of the same name.
You're making me hungry for American pizza.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
whats with the belgians and pizza?
I may have to visit and sample all the belgian pizzas I can find.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Giordano's pizza in Chicago. Best stuffed pizza in the universe; best pizza anywhere.
Or so I recall. <sniff>
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
RB, maybe it's not so much Belgian pizza as Belgian beer with pizza Posted by Crocobar (Member # 9102) on :
I tend to believe ScottR. I am yet to try Italian pizza though. So far the best pizza (by far) is thin crust Arinell cheese pizza in Berkeley. I assume it's much like italian since it looks and tastes nothing like typical american pizza. And yes, it is that kind that is very thin so you can fold it in two when eating.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
Hmmm, that could very well account for it.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I wandered around Rome for about 1 week and I did not find tasty pizza. I found TONS of delicious foods but no pizza. I am sorry but I think Americans have made pizza into something with FAR more possibilities and tasty choices than their Italian counterparts.
Posted by Loren (Member # 9539) on :
There's nothing wrong with American pizza in general. I enjoy it just fine.
But it's not Italian pizza. Not even close.
The best pizza I've ever had was in a tiny little (literal) hole-in-the-wall called "La Pia" in La Spazia. Second best was in pizza's birthplace, Napoli. Third was a wonderful little pizzeria in Amalfi.
quote:I wandered around Rome for about 1 week and I did not find tasty pizza.
Yeah, that's entirely possible, especially in touristy places like Rome and Florence. But that doesn't mean it's not there. It just means you didn't know where to look.
quote:I am sorry but I think Americans have made pizza into something with FAR more possibilities and tasty choices than their Italian counterparts.
I am sorry, but this makes me doubt that you have actually had Italian pizza. More possibilities? More tasty choices? One thing I love about Italian pizzerias is that you walk in and pick up a menu with 15 or 20 different kinds of pizzas: capricciosa, quattro stagioni, quattro formaggi, fra diavolo and on and on. And no crappy toppings like anchovies or <shudder> pineapple.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
There is no way that any pizzeria, anywhere, has found more toppings to put on a pizza that Cici's has. I'm not arguing quality here, just variety. I mean really, macaroni and cheese pizza? Apple pie pizza? They have really gotten out of hand.
Oh, and pineapple on pizza is a gift from Zenu.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
BB, Vas? There must be literaly thousands of wonderful pizza places in Rome, particularly of the Piazza Navona, which is an interesting location which is both extereamly touristy and wonderfuly local (you can still find locals who go there for an evening, in adition to the residents and workers of the Brazilian embassy.)
Florence also has several wondeful, and mercifuly cheap, cafés for pizza, notably off the Piazza della Signoria, which is one of the wonders of the world but terribly touristy.
However, it is in southern Italy that pizza tastes best, even Capri, which is more English than Italian and has cafés selling the bizzare dish of "toast Capri" has wonderful pizza.
Posted by TheSeeingHand (Member # 8349) on :
I've heard that Italian pizza is better than American.
I've also heard good things about Italian ice cream. yum yum!
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:Giordano's pizza in Chicago. Best stuffed pizza in the universe; best pizza anywhere.
-starLisa
I'd have to agree that this is pretty close to right in my opinion. I've been working on copying their crust for quite a few years now.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
??
Stuffed pizza?
You're insane. It may be delicious, it may be miraculous... but pizza, it is not.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
TheSeeingHand, no one dares deny the supreame power of GELATO!! Now, the best gelatarias make their own and strive to be distinctive, so no product is the same and it is worth trying several. Bacio is my favourite flavor.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:??
Stuffed pizza?
You're insane. It may be delicious, it may be miraculous... but pizza, it is not.
This is precisely the attitude that proves you misunderstand your opposition.
What makes American pizza so spectacular is the fact that it is not bound by the Italian conventions of what "is" pizza. In America, pizza is whatever you can get someone to put on your pizza. Stuffed crust is pizza. Anchovies and pineapple are still pizza because people enjoy eating pizza with those toppings.
A little place near my hometown in California used to buy a large amount of seemingly random fresh ingredients every day. Those ingredients ended up being the pizza of the day. Eating there was the only time I've ever had corn on pizza, and it was damn good.
If American pizza is more delicious and more miraculous than the Italian counterparts, and your only argument against it is that the good stuff doesn't count as real "pizza", then you've already lost.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
PS: Gelato is another story. Score one for Italy.
Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
Gelato is DEFINATLY better than normal ice cream. IMO of course.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
DF:
Calzone. All it REALLY is is a small pizza folded in half before being cooked.
The act of doing so ceases to make it a pizza. It is instead something different.
The word football means different things to different nations.
Pizza, likewise. I don't think much of what we have here is worthy of that honorific.
Posted by bluenessuno (Member # 5535) on :
in Elizabeth Gilbert's "Eat, Pray, Love" she recounts the joys of Eating pizza and other delights in Italy. "it's the best place to have pizza, but it's cost prohibitive." paraphrasing and not expressing my own opinion.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
Scott, you just made multiple disjointed points, but seemed to be presenting them as one.
Yes, a calzone is actually an awful lot like a pizza. But we don't call it a pizza, because another language already has a word for it that we can adopt. I'm sure if Italians had a special word for "hawaiian", we'd just adopt that.
Hey, open-faced sandwiches are a lot like pizza too. Bread on the bottom, vegetables, cheese, meat on top. But we call those open-faced sandwiches. And they aren't real popular in America.
As for different nations having different meanings for the same words... sure. That's exactly right. So "Pizza" means one thing in Italy. It means something else in America. And OSC's (and others) point is that when you weigh all the "Pizza" in America against all the "Pizza" in Italy, America's pizza wins.
If you insist that American pizza isn't pizza... fine. But we can do that any time we compare foods. It doesn't bring anything to the table with regards to the food quality. All you're doing is trying to invalidate the entire discussion.
"Japanese noodles are better than American noodles." "Bah, Japanese noodles aren't really noodles."
Like I said before: If your only argument against American pizza is that it doesn't fit some nebulous definition of "real pizza", then you've already lost.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Just in case you aren't aware, I'm not being serious-- I realize that my preference for Italian pizza is personal, and may not transfer objectively to the rest of society. I DON'T honestly think Italian pizza can be objectively proved to be better than American pizza; although to me, its superiority is beyond question.
There are some things quantifiably better about Italian pizzarias; most of the ones I frequented made their own sauce daily, made their own crusts daily, bought fresh, real mozzarella cheese-- that freshness makes quite a difference.
When I first lived in Italy, my favorite pizza was the Bismark-- simply because it had so much STUFF on it. As the name implies, it is not an Italian creation. As my pizza-pallette became more refined, I grew to prefer the simpler pizzas-- the diavola, the margherita, quattro stagione. (I never liked quattro formaggi, because I dislike gorganzola.)
It's this obsession with more toppings (and less fresh ones) that I think is the downfall of American style pizza. You don't taste any elements-- it's all a mash of confused...junk. Too much, in my opinion.
Oh...and the crust sucks.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
See, now that's a good argument!
I've never been to Italy, but it's not difficult for me to imagine better pizza than most American varieties. Some of the best pizza I have had here came from upscale italian restaurants, which would seem to verify your point.
And I bet you thought we disagreed. Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
Rocco's pizza of Portland used to offer ricotta as a topping. Now *that* was a pizza. <drool>
It's still great stuff: tasty crust, balanced spicing on the sauce, glorious amounts of cheese, no one can eat more than two slices without pain. And it's across the street from Powell's, possibly the greatest english bookstore on earth.
Posted by xray (Member # 9553) on :
pete and elda's pizza in belmare New jersey...best pizza ive ever ate
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
All I know is, Totino's frozen pizzas are pretty darn good for only $0.98
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Occasionally I find them on sale for $0.33. Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: All I know is, Totino's frozen pizzas are pretty darn good for only $0.98
Dude. Whether you're paying $5.00 or $0.01 to eat a turd, you're still paying to eat a turd. Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Whoa, Whoa. I would not have survived college if it weren't for a constantly replenished supply of Totino's in the C-store. Please, for the love of god, do not mock. Plus, you can make pizza tacos with them. Yummy.
Posted by MrMojoDriver (Member # 8852) on :
quote:Originally posted by Joldo: Uh-uh. The best pizza is Hawaiian.
Spam pizza?
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
N. O. NO!!
Posted by dab (Member # 7847) on :
my new favorite pizza is beau jo's in colorado... you eat the crust with honey, and its thick like chicago style, but not as heavy... In NYC you cant beat gramaldis which is right under the brooklyn bridge... that is GREAT pizza.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: All I know is, Totino's frozen pizzas are pretty darn good for only $0.98
Dude. Whether you're paying $5.00 or $0.01 to eat a turd, you're still paying to eat a turd.
I wonder if we still have any in the freezer.
*goes to check*
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: All I know is, Totino's frozen pizzas are pretty darn good for only $0.98
Dude. Whether you're paying $5.00 or $0.01 to eat a turd, you're still paying to eat a turd.
quote:Originally posted by dab: my new favorite pizza is beau jo's in colorado... you eat the crust with honey, and its thick like chicago style, but not as heavy... In NYC you cant beat gramaldis which is right under the brooklyn bridge... that is GREAT pizza.
I was very excited, last time I was in New York, to eat at Lombardi's.
You know.
Where Pizza was invented.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Heheheh. While part of my lifetime quest is to make the ultimate pizza, I do like that crispy party pizza crust. But the little sausage bits on them do resemble turds.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
Adding Lombardi's to list of places I have to go someday.
I must be hungry. I think I've posted 5 or 6 times today and they've all been on food threads.
Anyway, had to add a little New York pizzeria story. A couple of years ago I went back to Long Island for a funeral. On my way home (I was living in VA at the time), I stopped in a little local pizzeria for a slice (plain cheese) to go.
I just happened to tell the guy helping me that I'd grown up on L.I. and hadn't had any good NY pizza for years, and that some friends had recommended this place when I said I was craving some. Well, the owner perked up his ears at that and ended up coming over and having a 15-minute conversation w/ me about where I'd grown up, etc., and I ended up walking out of there with a free extra slice and some cannolis on the house. (I don't even like cannolis--and I'm probably not spelling it right either--but there was no telling this guy no, and I did find someone who appreciated them!)
Really good pizza. And they say New Yorkers aren't friendly!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Oh, I used to think that, but then I learned that New Yorkers are as friendly as any other group of people--you just have to learn to recognize New York friendliness.
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