In pastwatch, it seems that religious diversity still exits. I can't for the life of me figure out how. I mean, these people can see into the past! They can see exactly what Jesus was doing durring his lifetime. I would have thought this would have put an end to the debate once and for all.
Am I missing something?
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Just because you could watch Jesus' actions doesn't necessarily prove that he was or wasn't the Son of God. Muslims and Jews believe that Jesus was purely a prophet.
Prophets can perform miracles too. So, regardless of what happened, it doesn't necessarily prove anything.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, I'm assuming that somebody watched the cave.
Yeah, possession of the ability to travel through time and space would put paid to pretty much any and all speculation about most of the claims made by various faiths.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I seem to recall a line in the book about all visions and religious experiences (except Columbus's vision on the beach) being purely internal/subjective experiences that did not show up on Pastwatch machines.
Admittedly, I can't see how a literal resurrection could be missed.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Not that it's as important as the resurrecton, but it would be possible to figure out the truth of the virgin birth claim too.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
And either history would conform to the yugas or it wouldn't.
Posted by Avin (Member # 7751) on :
This is something that always bugged me about Pastwatch. As soon as I started reading it the first time around, I couldn't imagine why one of the first things it was turned to was recording the entire life of Jesus for public perusal. And given that, that would necessarily involve many changes in religion. I would imagine that many Eastern religions would remain simply because they could be held to regardless of any historical claim. However the three Abrahamic faiths are entirely dependent on history. Perhaps Jews could remain Jews even if the Pastwatch revealed no supernatural appearances to Abraham or Moses or such because they would still be able to postulate that the revelations had occurred in such a way that Pastwatch could not detect it. But as dkw posted, whatever the Pastwatch revealed about the Resurrection of Jesus would be critical. Either the event was not a physical resurrection and did not therefore show on the Pastwatch, in which case a lot of Christians would lose their faith (such as myself) because they rely on the physicality of the resurrection, or it would be physical and it seems to me that this would therefore validate Christianity in many people's eyes who did not believe in it before. And while Muslims believe in Jesus' supernatural abilities, I don't think they admit the Resurrection either (or the crucifixion of Jesus), so they would be at least forced to reevaluate.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It soooo doesn't surprise me that OSC chose (and I believe it was a conscious choice) to not deal with that in his book.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Oh yeah, it was definitely a wise choice.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by SteveRogers: Just because you could watch Jesus' actions doesn't necessarily prove that he was or wasn't the Son of God. Muslims and Jews believe that Jesus was purely a prophet.
Prophets can perform miracles too. So, regardless of what happened, it doesn't necessarily prove anything.
Actually that is just a Muslim belief, at most Jews may accept him as an historical figure.
But frankly I agree with you. Even if we had video evidence that Jesus didn't do anything in the New Testament, I truly believe most Christians would not just renounce their religion. I'm sure there would be some, probably the ones, like in all relgions, that don't believe in it deep down anyways.
A book by Arthur C Clarke and Stephen Baxter, The Light of Other Days, actually goes into that. They actually turn their camera's to Jesus' life. I don't want to spoil anything for anyone, but I think they did as good of a job as OSC handled Noah.
[ September 10, 2006, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Stephan ]
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: It soooo doesn't surprise me that OSC chose (and I believe it was a conscious choice) to not deal with that in his book.
Yeah, people would have severely criticized him either way he handled it (Jesus did everything, or Jesus did nothing). Not that the risk of that has ever stopped him before. I also think it would have distracted everyone from what the book is really about. If he had included Jesus' life, it just wouldn't have been about Columbus any more.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
It's been a while since I read it, but it seems to me that we do not strictly speaking know about any religions other than Islam still existing. And Islam would be quite well suited to survive scrutiny of its prophet, since it doesn't depend on any miracles of his.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
That was my initial thought too, but then I remembered that the brother of the younger male time traveler whose name I don't remember was a Catholic priest. So we do know that some form of Christianity was still around.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:And Islam would be quite well suited to survive scrutiny of its prophet, since it doesn't depend on any miracles of his.
Well, it "depends" on a few, for a given definition of "depends."
Certainly many Muslims would be shaken to learn that large sections of Mohammed's life were not described accurately.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stephan:
quote:Originally posted by SteveRogers: Just because you could watch Jesus' actions doesn't necessarily prove that he was or wasn't the Son of God. Muslims and Jews believe that Jesus was purely a prophet.
Prophets can perform miracles too. So, regardless of what happened, it doesn't necessarily prove anything.
Actually that is just a Muslim belief, at most Jews may accept him as an historical figure.
But frankly I agree with you. Even if we had video evidence that Jesus didn't do anything in the New Testament, I truly believe most Christians would not just renounce their religion. I'm sure there would be some, probably the ones, like in all relgions, that don't believe in it deep down anyways.
A book by Arthur C Clarke and Stephen Baxter, The Light of Other Days, actually goes into that. They actually turn their camera's to Jesus' life. I don't want to spoil anything for anyone, but I think they did as good of a job as OSC handled Moses.
Personally speaking if it was proven that Jesus did not perform a single miracle, including the miracle of his atonement and ressurection, I would probably drop my religion just like I would drop an umbrella were it proven that it would never rain again. Sure its nice to use umbrellas for keeping out the sun, but thats not what they are designed to do.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I would think that atonement (unlike resurrection) would be one of those things that Pastwatch viewers could not prove or disprove. Atonement deals with the meaning of events, it's not something directly observable.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
The resurrection, on the other hand, is clearly and obviously visible. Here is a guy who was dead, now he is alive.
Oddly, though, you probably could not destroy atheism (or let me rather say a-Christianity) with the described technology. It seems to me that the viewers would not be able to tell the difference between 'very deeply unconscious, capable of recovering' and 'really, truly dead'. And, for that matter, caves are dark. Would you be able to tell what was going on while he was buried? There could be a body switch in there.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I would think that atonement (unlike resurrection) would be one of those things that Pastwatch viewers could not prove or disprove.
If it were proven that there never was anybody like Jesus, and that the whole thing was made up, then that would be a pretty convincing disproof of the atonement.
Posted by Dav (Member # 8217) on :
I haven't yet read Pastwatch, but Mr. Card's a careful enough author that I would be surprised if he hadn't thought of this angle, and had some story-sensible reason in mind why people hadn't been able to look back and prove/disprove stories told by religions.
Assuming he did have a reason in mind, there might not have been any occasion to insert it into the story.
Character1: Say, isn't it interesting that we haven't been able to confirm the Resurrection with this technology?
Character2: Sure, but of course it's because of [insert reasons here].
But like I said, I haven't read the story yet so my speculation here might be moot Posted by Pécuchet (Member # 9330) on :
I don't really think that religious diversity would cease to exist only because of the technology implied by Passwatch. The observance of the past would problably discredit some of them, but could not proof or disproof the existence of a god. So, maybe, religions would change: some may disappear, some new ones may appear, all of them adapting to the new evidence.
And about Jesus, more important than the truth about the resurrection, at least to me, would be the fact that he had not said the things he was supposed to say. The message is more important to me than the resurrection, which i happen to consider anecdotical.
Just my two cents.
[Edited to correct a language mistake. Excuses for my english, I'm from Spain]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:since it doesn't depend on any miracles of his
If the hoofprints under the Dome of the Rock weren't really from his horse, this would solve a lot of problems.
It would be possible that along with the "literal" resurrection, there arose question over whether Jesus had actually died. I don't mean to say I'm not concerned with a literal resurrection. I just figure that's the direction people who aren't able to believe could go.
Or let's say all the miracles of all the religions were upheld. Then you're back to choosing. I think the reason Card doesn't go into it is because freedom of conscience is very important to God in Latter Day Christianity.
I "believed" in Jesus for most of my life without really feeling like my life depended on him.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:I would think that atonement (unlike resurrection) would be one of those things that Pastwatch viewers could not prove or disprove.
If it were proven that there never was anybody like Jesus, and that the whole thing was made up, then that would be a pretty convincing disproof of the atonement.
Yes, but that would be highly unlikely. There were, after all, a lot of little messianic cults floating about the Middle East, much like California now. It seems rather unlikely that there was no cult leader who could be made to fit. Really, you just need someone who preached vaguely ethical things and got crucified; the theologians would take it from there.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Middle east ~ California. It must be the tree fruits.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
1. There would be time-travel deniers.
2. The resolution of the machines decreased the farther back you went in time. To follow individual lives was not possible that far back (I make up the machines, I set the rules).
3. Even if people believed in the results, and the results showed that Jesus did everything as reported, it wouldn't cause people to convert to Christianity; and Christianity has proven itself to be quite adaptable in turn. Some religions might die; others might adapt their doctrine. Judaism, for instance, managed to adapt itself into a religion that could survive without a temple or the sacrifice-centered ritual.
4. Religions generally survive on the basis of the quality of life/survivability of culture. That is, if the religion makes it possible for its adherents to live successfully in such a way as to enhance the propagation of both its members and its cultural practices generation after generation, it will thrive, regardless of doctrine. That is the acid test for a religion. those that adapt too easily die by dissolving into the surrounding cultures; those that are too rigid to adapt shrink into tiny insoluble lumps that no longer attract converts.
Trust me: The third Pastwatch book does religion just fine - I tackle Adam and Eve. As I've often promised, I'll irritate everybody with that one. But I'll be having lots of fun!
Posted by Mark (Member # 6393) on :
Haha, I bet! Don't worry, I'm just in it for fun as well.
Thanks for the reply!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: Middle east ~ California. It must be the tree fruits.
Actually, I suspect it's the weather.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
quote:Trust me: The third Pastwatch book does religion just fine - I tackle Adam and Eve. As I've often promised, I'll irritate everybody with that one. But I'll be having lots of fun!
Have I missed one? Or are we looking way ahead?
I know what it is. You're ensuring you're going to live forever, aren't you? Thousands of prayers pleading on your behalf: "Please, keep Uncle Orson safe until he's written the rest of Pastwatch, and Alvin Maker, and Women of Genesis, and Ender, and Lovelock...." Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
What's up with Lovelock? I"m still waitng anxiously for that to continue.
Posted by hatrkr81 (Member # 9317) on :
I'm also waiting on the next Lovelock book..though from what I've heard, Lovelock will not be in it. But I'll be quiet and anxiously await all these goodies coming our way like a good boy Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Lovelock will not be the main character. I wonder if some of the same humans will be involved. The main character will be a cat name Rasputin. I'm guessing Rasputin will also be an enhanced-intelligence witness.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
<derail>
Reshpeckobiggle, I love your name! It makes me smile.
</derail>
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:2. The resolution of the machines decreased the farther back you went in time. To follow individual lives was not possible that far back (I make up the machines, I set the rules).
Then how did you manage to have someone find the origin of slavery? That was certainly well before the birth of Christ, and depended on seeing how somebody or other prevented captives from being sacrificed. I don't see how you get that without following individual lives.
Posted by Rawr (Member # 9326) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pécuchet: The observance of the past would problably discredit some of them, but could not proof or disproof the existence of a god.
Of course, if we're talking about God now, maybe they could go all the way back to the creation of the world to see exactly how the world was created?
And perhaps the slavery issue was just a strange exemption from the rule? He could do that, you know. Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
that would end the age of the earth debate.
which would end up discrediting a lot of people, either way.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:2. The resolution of the machines decreased the farther back you went in time. To follow individual lives was not possible that far back (I make up the machines, I set the rules).
Then how did you manage to have someone find the origin of slavery? That was certainly well before the birth of Christ, and depended on seeing how somebody or other prevented captives from being sacrificed. I don't see how you get that without following individual lives.
Where in Pastwatch did it say that Noah's individual life was followed? It spoke of them discovering the historical basis for Atlantis and Noah, but it didn't give the impression that they were able to discern more than a few "highlights" of the general history.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
Check out the short story "Atlantis" in the OSC Library on this site. Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat:
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:2. The resolution of the machines decreased the farther back you went in time. To follow individual lives was not possible that far back (I make up the machines, I set the rules).
Then how did you manage to have someone find the origin of slavery? That was certainly well before the birth of Christ, and depended on seeing how somebody or other prevented captives from being sacrificed. I don't see how you get that without following individual lives.
Where in Pastwatch did it say that Noah's individual life was followed? It spoke of them discovering the historical basis for Atlantis and Noah, but it didn't give the impression that they were able to discern more than a few "highlights" of the general history.
Not talking about Noah; you're right that he is not mentioned as being individually followed. But the invention of slavery was definitely about following an individual. Sorry, can't remember the name, and can't look it up since my copy is back in Norway.
Posted by Lefty the One-armed Man (Member # 6161) on :
I seem to recall a line from the book implying that they had watched historical religious events. I think it's when they first find the appearance of the Trinity. Something along the lines of: Every other religious experience had been a personal, subjective event, but this one could actually be seen by the Pastwatch observers.
Edit: Oops. DKW already said that.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
In any case, that occurs at the time of Columbus.
Posted by Silas Haslam (Member # 9723) on :
When I worked at a science fiction magazine, we must have gotten one new Adam and Eve story a week. Usually it was a pair of space travelers who crash landed on an uninhabited planet, and we found out their names were Adam and Eve on the last line of the story. I hope to see a Pastwatch novel in that format.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
The Atlantis short story definitely has us following Noag's [sic] life in individual detail. But it also has a totally different setting from what people usually talk about. If we extrapolate the departure from tradition based on that, things should be pretty different by the time we get back into the Garden of Eden. Though how different they can get without going into the alien transplant storyline is a puzzle.
I don't know, maybe it's about a lone alien who clones himself minus the Y chromosome and then you find out it is Adam and Eve. And, of course, his spaceship blew up or something.
I'm not sure how these stories explain the genetic similarities between Adam and Eve and all the indigenous animals. Unless they were the first mammals and everything devolved, rather than evolved, away from them.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
In 30 thousand years? Good trick, that. I'd note that while Atlantis follows Noag, it's not implied (as far as I recall) that he is being watched by Pastwatch; just that this is the story of Noag, whom Pastwatch knows about in general outline.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: <derail>
Reshpeckobiggle, I love your name! It makes me smile.
</derail>
Do you know where it comes from?
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
Well, of courshe.
A very reshpectable Marshwiggle, are you?
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
lol... my other favorite author...
I really wish OSC and Lewis were contemporaries, it would be fun to watch a debate or discussion between them.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I guess I had not considered Pastwatch's look at religion's history in the way you did in order to begin this thread. Even though it is a favorite book of mine.
The one "religious" thing about the book that disturbed me was the very ending -- the afterword, where the future civilization finds the evidence of their journey back in time to "fix" things -- and I audibly went "NO! You can't have them figure that out in the future -- it is the whole basis for their belief in their own society, and it's going to send everything into chaos!"
FG
Posted by Rawr (Member # 9326) on :
They'd go into chaos either way. They're human, after all.
Posted by Nikisknight (Member # 8918) on :
quote:When I worked at a science fiction magazine, we must have gotten one new Adam and Eve story a week. Usually it was a pair of space travelers who crash landed on an uninhabited planet, and we found out their names were Adam and Eve on the last line of the story. I hope to see a Pastwatch novel in that format.
They were all copying an old Twilight Zone episode anyway! Oh, more pastwatch books! Yay!
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