1) Yes, I know, I'm new and subject to teasing, and 2) being such, I've no idea if this is a repeat topic or not. I've done as much searching through archives as humanly possibly without exploding my own head, and I suppose if it IS a repeat, just let it drift to the back of the forums by itself. Thanks. ;D
Anyway.
I'm a beginning freshman at my university, and I found out a few days ago that most of the students in my intro sociology course have crazy misconceptions concerning Mormonism. A majority of the class believed that Mormons still condoned and practiced polygamy. At least a fourth of the class thought that polygamy was legal in Utah.
What I'm trying to say is, has anyone else faced ignorance like this, or any kind of crazy myths surrounding the religion? (A friend and I were talking about some of the religious themes in some of Card's works, especially the Homecoming series, and another friend heard the word 'Mormon' and flipped his lid.) Or is it just a regional thing, since I live out in the middle of Nowhere, Kentucky?
Posted by duckfeathers (Member # 9843) on :
"Misconceptions." I meant to use the word "misconceptions" up there instead of "crazy myths" but it's late and I'm tired. D:
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
Um... I think discussing the LDS church is not banned, but is not encouraged here...
I may be wrong.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Pretty sure that's only true when the discussion is about specifics of doctrine and/or ritual.
As a non-Mormon who has been on Hatrack long enough to know one or two things, I have repeatedly had arguments with people (elsewhere online, and IRL) regarding polygamy. More than once I have been informed that I am wrong, and Mormons are still polygamous.
duckfeathers, welcome to Hatrack.
For future reference, if you want to edit a post, the little pencil-and-paper icon on your post will allow you to do so.
Posted by duckfeathers (Member # 9843) on :
Oh, if this is banned, then I won't be upset in the slightest if an admin pops it off of here.
And Rivka: It's kind of amazing how people will hear only one idea (typed: eyedya) about something, grab it, and stick to it. Most of my class was shocked when it was told that polygamy is in fact not legal, nor smiled upon by the LDS church.
Oh, and thanks. *edits this post* I figured I'd find an edit feature on here SOMEWHERE, but when I hovered the cursor over the pen-and-paper icon, the status bar said 'reply,' so I didn't bother. ::sleepy peer:: And thanks again!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Do check out the "other side" of the forum as well. It's a tad busier ( ), but there's all kinds of interesting people over there who rarely post over here.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
There are misconceptions about Mormons - because old rumors never die (have you sent YOUR Christmas cards to that little kid in England who was dying back in the early nineties?). We really DID practice polygamy, and there are people who, once they get an idea in their heads, don't let go of it.
BUT ... there are also people who, confronted with evidence that some group they despise is not, in fact, guilty of what they claim to despise them for, will simply ignore all evidence in order to cling to the idea. Thus we have people who claim the holocaust never happened and Jews caused the attacks of 9/11. (Nobody has yet advanced the idea that the towers never existed and the whole thing was a fabrication ... but it's coming, I'm sure.)
So there are honest mistakes, traditional mistakes, and stubborn, willful mistakes.
There are also lies. It's worth remembering that there are many people - most of them born-again Christians - whose "ministry" consists of deliberately distorting history and/or making stuff up in order to keep people from believing the message of the Mormon missionaries - basically, trying to immunize people against Mormons.
It generally backfires, at least with people perceptive enough or skeptical enough to wonder what possible evidence they could have of some of the wacko things they charge.
The worst, of course, are the apostates, who can never quite forgive the church for not bowing to their will.
I'm glad you attempted to set the record straight. Just remember that there's no point in ever getting angry in such a discussion - as the talk shows have proven over and over again, whoever gets maddest, loses <grin>.
So you offer your correction - and if they flip their lids or acidly deny the accuracy of your statements, just shrug and drop it. Often the person who cannot listen to you today will hear you tomorrow ... but not if you let it turn into a fight so they have to defend their position forever ...
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
The Book of Mormon has some choice things to say about professional ministers. As a result, professional ministers will always be enemies to the Church. But they won't say "anyone who will do my job for free has to be brainwashed." Instead they say we are a cult, we are not Christian, or that we condone illegal practices. What can you do?
I know sometimes people have criticized how much money we spend on temples and large buildings and how much good could be done for the poor with that money. I've never heard anyone say that about a minister's salary. I don't mean to say they make extravagant sums of money, it's simply a matter that we put a similar amount of money into different things.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:As a result, professional ministers will always be enemies to the Church.
This isn't true.
It assumes knowledge of motivation that you can't possess, pooka. Additionally, it's fairly insulting.
MOST of the critiscism leveled at the Church has basis in truth: yes, we were polygamists. Yes, we do not fit the traditional Christian mold. Yes, works are generally more important to Mormons than grace.
Suggesting that ministers of other religions are opposed to us based on their need for money is just...man, it's just insulting to a good many good hearted people. Let's not go about spreading myths about other religions, okay?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:As a result, professional ministers will always be enemies to the Church.
Do you believe Dana is an enemy to the Church, pooka?
Posted by duckfeathers (Member # 9843) on :
quote:I'm glad you attempted to set the record straight. Just remember that there's no point in ever getting angry in such a discussion - as the talk shows have proven over and over again, whoever gets maddest, loses <grin>.
Ahaha. I've been stubborn, willfull, and completely stupid before, and I'm sure I will be many, many times in the future. I'll keep that in mind, though.
quote:Do check out the "other side" of the forum as well. It's a tad busier ( [Wink] ), but there's all kinds of interesting people over there who rarely post over here.
Definitely will! Tell ya the truth, I've lurked on and off for a few years. ;D I really like the environment.
Anyway, to keep my own topic on topic, I partially asked because I really wasn't sure if this was a regional thing or not. I love my home dearly, but we really are the buckle of the Bible belt, and my hometown is 1200 people (ie, three gas stations and a stoplight, and the city where my university is located isn't much better.) There's really not much chance for diversity or cultural growth, and I know that has to have influenced people's opinions concerning other religions.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
But my boss' brother's friend's ex-girlfriend's uncle saw a Mormon with 10 wives!
Posted by striplingrz (Member # 9770) on :
duck, the regional question is a good one. I've lived in the South all my life, so I wonder the same thing. I grew up Southern Baptist and converted to LDS when I was 21. Honestly, I didn't pay much attention to religion growing up, but I do remember those great LDS commercials that came on in the 80's. However, when religion did start mattering (is that a word? lol) to me, the LDS thing was just amazing. So much bad rumor and innuendo surrounded it. So I figured I had two choices, investigate myself, or trust what I was hearing from other non-Mormons. I did the right thing and got the answers myself. Unfortunately, too many others are willing to simply listen to their pastor or friends or whatever. Its just like OSC said above... they are "trying to immunize people against Mormons."
Its very sad really. People I grew up with would rather believe I joined a cult than use some common sense and look into it themselves. Anyway, Baptists are less open-minded in this regard. Conversely, Methodists I've encountered are very open-minded. And just so everyone is clear, I'm speaking from personal experience here and not trying to paint everyone with a broad brush.
And Scott R, I agree its not good to say all ministers/pastors are opposed based on money. I would rather say they believe in something so they preach it. Ok, I can understand that, we all do that. However, what they don't do in my experience is encourage open discussion and debate. Sad but true.
Anyway, back on topic, the regional question is an interesting one. How is it in the Northwest? Northeast? other countries?
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
So Stephan, was he going to St. Ives?
Seriously, it makes me sad when I hear those with the born-again label (like me) saying LDS is a cult. Admittedly the jury was out for me on what LDS was until I read the book Will Power Is Not Enough, which explains how our partnership with God improves our character.
I told a friend, "This is a great book, and now I can't have any doubt that Mormons are Christians. No non-Christian could understand the Christian life so well."
Friend: "Did you know I'm a Mormon?"
Me: "Um, well, it's a good thing I got the right answer, then, isn't it?"
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
I don't mind people saying Mormons are not orthodox Christians.
I don't mind people saying Mormons are not historic Christians.
To be honest, I am amused when they call Mormons a Christian Cult.
I DO mind people saying Mormons are not Biblical Christians (no matter what you interpret the Bible to be teaching).
I DO mind people saying Mormons are not Christian at all.
Why? Because Mormons believe Jesus Christ as Son of God, Savior.
Posted by duckfeathers (Member # 9843) on :
Will B: So you'd recommend that book? To tell you the truth, I've never heard of it, but it sounds really interesting.
Posted by striplingrz (Member # 9770) on :
Its a very good book, but I wouldn't say its much of a book about doctrine. At least thats not its intent. Its simply a book that puts the challenges (addictions) some of us face into context of spirituality and how that helps you overcome those things. It does so with a basis in doctrine. But its very much about what the title states.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: Thus we have people who claim the holocaust never happened and Jews caused the attacks of 9/11. (Nobody has yet advanced the idea that the towers never existed and the whole thing was a fabrication ... but it's coming, I'm sure.)
Nope, the real conspiracy is that the towers are still up. The [Government|Illuminati|Jews|whoever] is really controlling all communication in and out of New York, and they're brainwashing everyone too. Isn't it obvious? Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
People always have myths about other people. That's why it's good to do research or read books in the perspective of Mormons as other people's perspectives fascinate me.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Yes, I do recommend it, much in the way striplingrz suggests.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: The worst, of course, are the apostates, who can never quite forgive the church for not bowing to their will.
Of course, it is completely impossible that anyone might just not believe in what the LDS church teaches. Nobody in their right mind could conceivably have doubted the historicity of the angel Moroni. Therefore, everyone who has left the church must obviously have done so purely because they wanted power within their church, and were annoyed when they didn't get it.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
I consider LDS to be a more-"christian" christianity than many other sects of the religion.
I also appreciate it because of it's almost eastern lifestyle.
my two cents.
I am glad this is being discussed so heartily, most every other thread had a feeling of distrust behind it, or so I felt.
Posted by ElaRibeira (Member # 8306) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: The worst, of course, are the apostates, who can never quite forgive the church for not bowing to their will.
Of course, it is completely impossible that anyone might just not believe in what the LDS church teaches. Nobody in their right mind could conceivably have doubted the historicity of the angel Moroni. Therefore, everyone who has left the church must obviously have done so purely because they wanted power within their church, and were annoyed when they didn't get it.
The meaning I took from OSC's statement was that by "apostate" he meant, not just anyone who left the LDS faith, but those who, upon leaving it, felt the need to slander it and encourage the spread of misconceptions about it, that is, those who converted away from LDS with an agenda to defame it. And in that sense, he's very right. Angry apostates are the worst spokespeople for their former religions, no matter what religion you're dealing with.
The truly misfortunate thing is that such people are generally not the most knowledgable about the religions they have left (often they have misconceptions, or don't understand why their former faith teaches what it does and assume it is caused by some prejudice or shortcoming), but they are considered experts by many of those who hear them rant and rave, because of two assumptions commonly held. (1) They *must* be knowledgable of the religion they once practiced. (2) They *must* be a more reliable source of knowledge than someone who still practices, because they are no longer brainwashed/were able to see past the lies/etc.
It's a phenomenon not limited to the LDS Church by any means.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Will B:
I told a friend, "This is a great book, and now I can't have any doubt that Mormons are Christians. No non-Christian could understand the Christian life so well."
Friend: "Did you know I'm a Mormon?"
Me: "Um, well, it's a good thing I got the right answer, then, isn't it?"
Great story, Will B!
Posted by DaisyMae (Member # 9722) on :
As far as the regional question goes, I'm LDS, grew up in Utah, but I've live in Connecticut, Ohio and now Nebraska. I've noticed a trend in each place I've lived as far as reaction to my telling people I'm Mormon. In Connecticut most people didn't really seem to care much, or would ask casual questions out of curiosity, but mostly they just shrugged it off and went their way. It seemed a non-issue most of the time.
In Ohio there always seemed to be misconceptions and I received quite a few negative reactions. I don't know if it was the area or just the people I happened to meet, but there was a very strong Catholic following where I lived. Most people were at least outwardly polite, but wouldn't treat me the same after. A few openly accused me of believing things that we don't believe. I would say, "We don't believe that," and one person said, "Yes you do!" That was weird for me. Many people were quite vocal about it.
In Nebraska Christianity in general is dominant, so discussion about church is common and openly accepted. However, when asked which church I go to I have repeatedly been met with blank stares and polite excuses to end the conversation after my answer. I have more than once got the impression that they are confused because we were having a very nice conversation and seemed to be getting on quite well and then they find out and I'm not fitting their picture of what they thought a Mormon was or something. This is just how it feels, mind you. No one has expressly told me this. I'm not sure what they think, but they don't want to offend me by sharing it. They just want to get away from me quickly. This makes me sad. I'm sure there are many misconceptions. I'm actually surprised, however, at how many LDS people I meet here. There is a stronger membership here than I anticipated.
Also, I second ElaRibeira's interpretation of what OSC meant by "apostate."
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Not TOO many misconceptions here in L.A., at least that I've encountered. A few, not many. And the ones there are aren't big ones, and are not about polygamy or anything like that.
And my cousin's husband is a Lutheran minister, and we have many polite and edifying and extremely interesting conversations about religion. He admires LDS bishops since finding out that they do their "job" without being paid. He also really admires the infrastructure of the church that makes that possible, and has asked me questions about some of our organization so that he can make running parts of his congregation's auxiliaries more efficient and effective.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
Lighten up, King of Men. People enter and leave the church all the time without difficulty. It's the ones who obsessively attack the church, telling any lie or providing any absurd negative spin they can. This is NOT just a matter of disbelief. So don't act like its an illiberal thing to typify the actions of these apostates as "the worst" when it comes to telling lies about Mormonism. It's simply an observable fact.
But I'm glad you were able to find this thread to be such a convenient excuse to heap scorn on the "absurdity" of my faith. You couldn't possibly have simply left any of that comment unsaid, could you? Because you're so open-minded, right?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
At least he slanders all faiths evenly.
Too bad he hasn't realized he paints a worse picture of himself and his own beliefs than he does of others when he spouts off, huh? Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I have said nothing in this thread about the absurdity of anyone's faith, although I do in fact believe that Mormonism, and Christianity generally, are absurd.
You did not say "those apostates which tell lies about Mormonism", although possibly that is what you intended your post to mean. You said "the apostates, who can never forgive the church". Note the comma. If you did not intend this to apply to everybody who has left the church, which is the usual meaning of 'apostate', I can only suggest that you upgrade the forum software to support the new mind-reading protocols.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:If you did not intend this to apply to everybody who has left the church, which is the usual meaning of 'apostate'
In this case, KoM, since this is a Mormon-centric thread, a little education is needed.
The word 'apostate' in Mormon theology does not just mean someone who has left the church. In this case, it's more like the following definition offered by dictionary.com:
quote:n : a disloyal person who betrays or deserts his cause or religion or political party or friend etc. [syn: deserter, renegade, turncoat, recreant, ratter]
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I am not quite clear on the distinction you are making. Are you saying that Mormons only apply 'apostate' to church-leavers who are actively hostile to the church, and have another name for those who leave on good terms? If so, OSC's post becomes more reasonable, though I stand by my comment about the mind-reading software.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Are you saying that Mormons only apply 'apostate' to church-leavers who are actively hostile to the church, and have another name for those who leave on good terms?
Yes; the first is 'apostate' (though that's not a term that most folks use); the second is 'inactive,' or 'Ex-mormon.'
quote:I stand by my comment about the mind-reading software.
IMO, I think it's pretty common knowledge that 'apostate' means more than friendly departure from a belief system. Maybe I'm wrong. At any rate, I'm glad I could open your mind to new possibilities.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
quote:Great story, Will B!
Posted by Presences (Member # 8492) on :
My opinion, and most Mormon opinions I know, have a real world definition of Apostate Mormon vs. an inactive Mormon:
Apostate: The member or ex-member who slanders his once believed faith. Slandering the faith is probably the minimum they do. Judas Iscariot being THE example of an apostate.
Inactive (one who does not go to church): The member who probably still believes most of the teachings of the church, will even defend it when necessary, but does not attend due to guilt, selfishness, laziness, or maybe even was offended by someone and unwilling to forgive, etc. Or, it could be an ex-member, or inactive member who says they no longer believe the faith, but will not speak badly of it, neither does this person try to go about and destroy others faith. (Of course, my believe is once a believer, always a believer, unless you decide to become an Apostate.)
Posted by Dark as night (Member # 9577) on :
To answer the original question, judging by the places I've lived, the higher percentage of LDS population, the fewer misconceptions about our religions seem to exist. It makes sense, because if people have neighbors, colleagues, friends, etc. who are LDS, they won't HAVE to ask "Are you still practicing polygamy?"
I was born to Muslim gone atheist gone religiosly neutral parents. In Russia. Then we all became LDS just 3 years after Russia was opened to LDS missionaries. Talk about misconceptions there! Problem was that in a country made up mostly of Russian Orthodox Christians, EVERY religion other than Islam, Catholisism, and Judaism was considered to be a cult. In hateful newspaper articles, often written at request of the Orthodox Church, we were right there with Jehovah's Witnesses, 7th day Adventists, Baptists, Methodists, and "all other protestants". According to them the collective purpose of these "foreign sects and cults" was to brainwash and manipulate all the good and faithful Russian Orthodox people and pull them away from their true faith. Never mind that a vast majority of them goes to church only on religious holidays. I think that things may have gotten slightly better since I left, but in the 90s we got a tremendous amount of persecution, ridicule and hate from the people who believed the lies spread about us by the Orthodox propaganda. To be fair, they did slander all the non-mainstream faiths almost equally.
Of course people asked me what kind of animals we butcher at church during our rituals and what brainwashing methods these guys in white shirts with nametags employ. Polygamy and Joseph Smith were not as well frequently discussed however.
And now I live in Virginia, where most people have at least heard of us, and though every so often I get questions like "so how many other wives did your dad have?" they are always asked with a smile. Otherwise I am most frequently asked about the Word of Wisdom and "that pretty white castle-like Mormon church on I-495 just north of DC". Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Hey, I live in Northern VA, too!
Small world.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
"that pretty white castle-like Mormon church on I-495 just north of DC"
For years there was a grafiti "Welcome to OZ" on an overpass that lined up exactly underneath the spires as you came around the Beltway toward it.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I love that view. My friend Catherine came to visit a few weeks ago and we went out there to see it. You can still see "surrender" on the overpass right before it when you're hading east on 495.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
*smacks forehead*
That's right, it said, "Surrender Dorothy."
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
I heard that mormons worship Satan and drink blood of sacrificed children >_>. Seriously though, I used to think mormons were strange before I became friends with some, I have to say that the mormons whom I know are some of the nices people I have ever met. I don't know what it is that is taught in LDS but apparently it makes people act really nice... At first it kind of creeped me out a bit but then I grew to think it was cool.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I heard that mormons worship Satan and drink blood of sacrificed children
Haha! Satan! Heh.
Nah. Asmodean.
And drink the blood of children? Ewww. Of course we do eat babies, but drinking their freshly spilled life-blood...no way. That's just not sanitary.
Posted by MaGlick (Member # 9648) on :
With Mitt Romney likely one of the top Republican presidential apirants (and a Mormon), we're likely to got a good barometric reading on how the country feels about the sect.
I don't know a lot about LDS myself. I've always had a bit of trouble reconciling notion of a Christian god with his creation, a world whose inhabitants have to kill and eat each other to live.
But I'm not a big fan or mortality, at least the notion of my own mortality, so I definitely see the appeal of everlasting life.
Posted by Oobie Binoobie (Member # 8059) on :
quote:Originally posted by JonHecht: I don't know what it is that is taught in LDS but apparently it makes people act really nice... At first it kind of creeped me out a bit but then I grew to think it was cool.
It's the green jello. With the carrot shavings suspended in it. Isn't it obvious?
Posted by DaisyMae (Member # 9722) on :
Growing up I understood the green jello joke, but truly I haven't seen green jello in perhaps fifteen years. Is it still around at church functions?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
No. Yet the jokes remain.
Kinda like polygamy.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
We brought green jell-o with carrots to a Utah Hatrack gathering, but I guess that wouldn't be considered a church function.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
And you brought it as a joke.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
"Ye gods! Religion harnessing science? What next miracle, I wonder. The next thing, we'll have electric votive candles!"
I found this over at Onery, and had a negative reaction. There are at least two large myths (and one minor one) going on here, even if it is a joke.
The context is a story on how Salt Lake City is going to try and develop electricity from garbage and waste. There is absolutely NO mention of Mormons at all. Can you pick out the myths? The only thing you need to know is the above context to understand what the myths would be.
Posted by Kylie K (Member # 9818) on :
quote:Originally posted by duckfeathers: Two quick notes to begin this post:
1) Yes, I know, I'm new and subject to teasing, and 2) being such, I've no idea if this is a repeat topic or not. I've done as much searching through archives as humanly possibly without exploding my own head, and I suppose if it IS a repeat, just let it drift to the back of the forums by itself. Thanks. ;D
Anyway.
I'm a beginning freshman at my university, and I found out a few days ago that most of the students in my intro sociology course have crazy misconceptions concerning Mormonism. A majority of the class believed that Mormons still condoned and practiced polygamy. At least a fourth of the class thought that polygamy was legal in Utah.
What I'm trying to say is, has anyone else faced ignorance like this, or any kind of crazy myths surrounding the religion? (A friend and I were talking about some of the religious themes in some of Card's works, especially the Homecoming series, and another friend heard the word 'Mormon' and flipped his lid.) Or is it just a regional thing, since I live out in the middle of Nowhere, Kentucky?
I didn't know that. Thank you for enlightening me. I guess it should have been obvious that they would practice that anymore. To tell the truth I know little about mormonism. What I know I've picked up from the few mormons I know. Anyway thank you for teaching me something.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: It's worth remembering that there are many people - most of them born-again Christians - whose "ministry" consists of deliberately distorting history and/or making stuff up in order to keep people from believing the message of the Mormon missionaries - basically, trying to immunize people against Mormons.
Well, as a "born again Christian" I hope I'm not considered in that lot.
I find, in my own church, that I'm about the only one with first-hand knowledge/experience of the LDS faith. Most others only know what they have "read" from various sources.
Although I'm not LDS, I think most in my current church know, now, that if they have a question about LDS, they ask me. I'm appalled at some of the misconceptions they do have. While I don't personally agree with the Mormon doctrine, I also don't agree with there being inaccuracies perpetuated through ignorance.
Oftentimes one of our members will say, "I just got a new neighbor and they are Mormon. I'm not sure I understand the difference between what they believe and what we believe, so I don't want to say something offensive". So we talk about it.
And I'm no expert. That's why I enjoy conversing with the LDS here and my other LDS friends IRL to learn more.
FG
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
Yes, I have encountered that quite a lot. I am actually no longer a Mormon, but I used to be. Whenever anybody new to me finds out that I'm a former Mormon, they have a lot of questions about the religion, and some of them are downright bizarre. But I try to answer them as best I can, anyway.
I think it's a religion that has a lot of "mystique" surrounding it (at least, to those who aren't part of it), and that spurs a lot of weird rumors. Of course, a lot of folks find parts of Mormon doctrine to be weird, and that's understandable, I think. The nice thing is that the real information about the LDS church is out there for anybody to find easily, if they want to do a little easy research. But a lot of folks find it easier to just believe the stranger rumors they hear.
The question I get asked the most often is about "magical Mormon underwear." Everybody always seems pretty let down when I tell them that it's just a sacred garment, like in any other religion that uses sacred garments, but it's worn under your everyday clothes instead of on the outside for everybody to see. They're especially disappointed when I tell them that Mormons don't actually bathe and shower with their temple garments on. Really - if they believe that Mormons bathe with their temple garments on, then they must think it takes Mormons several hours to dry off after a bath. Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka:
I know sometimes people have criticized how much money we spend on temples and large buildings and how much good could be done for the poor with that money. I've never heard anyone say that about a minister's salary. I don't mean to say they make extravagant sums of money, it's simply a matter that we put a similar amount of money into different things.
Right - I've always found that funny. Goodness, I've NEVER seen as much communtiy charity in any organization as when I was active in the Church. I think I was involved in helping somebody out just about every single weekend with one Church group or another. I'm happy to say that I still do community service whenever I have the time! It's a shame that the LDS church is accused of being a bunch of temple-building maniacs when their church administrators aren't even paid.
WHATEVER, anti-Mormon churches! Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: The worst, of course, are the apostates, who can never quite forgive the church for not bowing to their will.
Of course, it is completely impossible that anyone might just not believe in what the LDS church teaches. Nobody in their right mind could conceivably have doubted the historicity of the angel Moroni. Therefore, everyone who has left the church must obviously have done so purely because they wanted power within their church, and were annoyed when they didn't get it.
I guess I'm technically an apostate, but I didn't leave because I felt that the church wasn't conforming to what I wanted it to be, nor because of any hard feelings toward the Church. I left because I couldn't make myself into what the Church expected of me - a person who believes in a conscious and active deity. I felt like a hypocrite, staying in such a nice community when no amount of prayer or conversation with the Holy Ghost (which I also couldn't believe is a conscious spirit) could bring me to believe in deities of any kind.
At least I'm not a vicious apostate who goes around bad-mouthing the Church. I have nothing but good things to say about it to anybody who discusses it with me - in fact, I love it dearly, and I'll defend the LDS church when I think it's necessary. I just can't stay there when I don't truly believe in the existence of God.
So, not all of the apostates are total jerks. Some of us are okay.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Presences: Or, it could be an ex-member, or inactive member who says they no longer believe the faith, but will not speak badly of it, neither does this person try to go about and destroy others faith. (Of course, my believe is once a believer, always a believer, unless you decide to become an Apostate.)
Well, that makes me feel a little bit better. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Just a note on green Jell-o: when I was on bedrest during my first pregnancy, the Visiting Teachers came by with dinner one night and dessert was green Jell-o (but with pineapple, not carrots.) However, the person I have been most likely to recieve green Jell-o salad from is my (Baptist) grandmother who grew up in Kansas. Growing up, I always assumed it was a Midwest thing (which it may well be considering how close Dallas is to the Midwest and that I'd consider Utah, while unique more Midwest than West Coast, culture-wise.)
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
Am I the only person who LIKES green Jell-O with carrots? The only person I know who makes it is my very non-Mormon grandma. She also puts walnuts in it. Mmmmm.
Posted by Chris63084 (Member # 9873) on :
Well, I feel I want to comment, however I'm not sure what to say, about the original post, I never really had a misconception such as that about current LDS...policy? (Should I call it that?)However on the the subject of misconceptions, I think most of it is simple ignorance. It is simply the way people act when something seems strange or different to them. It's almost shameful that humanity is still like that, but much of it is. Honestly I don't know what I believe anymore personally. I was raised a born-again christian, and my own experiences in life lead me to believe in god, however I'm not so sure that my belief makes any sense to me. (if that makes any sense) In any case, for the most part people of the born again faith that I've met seem to think of Mormons as unknown or they consider them "unsaved" or they have said that it was a cult. Now, I think that those ideas stem from the fact that with born again christianity, everything is so free-form that people form their own beliefs on much of what the bible says. The doctrine is not exactly set. As far as what I think, I'm not sure, my personal experiences with people of that faith were positive. The largest difference between what I was brought up to believe and Mormonism is that I was taught to believe that the only "holy book" or whatever you want to call it is the bible. I think thats one thing that sticks out to me as different, but please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, just that that seems to be the largest difference to me. As far as how I feel that they line up, someone said it earlier, both believe in Jesus as their savior, and I think thats probably the most important thing. In any case, I must admit that I too am one of those people that knows very little about this. I hope that I didn't offend anyone by what I said, and I hope that I spark some conversation about the differences, the similarities, etc. Chris
Posted by Promethius (Member # 2468) on :
quote: The Book of Mormon has some choice things to say about professional ministers
I didnt know that the book of Mormon actually spoke out against professional ministers. This would explain why the guy I work with who is Mormon said some of the things he said.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Come to that, the Bible isn't very nice to professional priests either - Jesus is always clashing with them, of course, but even the OT prophets have to fight their corruption and greed.
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
And I think it should be noted that professional might mean something different to different people. I'm not too sure that all full time LDS church leaders are living off of savings or donations from family. In other words, the church has to be helping them out somehow.
I think "professional" means that they make money according to the number of believers they have. So they do everything they can to increase the believer count so that they can get more money. Especially if that means making doctrines more acceptable.
Posted by striplingrz (Member # 9770) on :
I agree human_2.0, but I'd add my personal experience something else. When I was 13, I was baptised in a Southern Baptist church. Within 2 months, our pastor left the church to go to a bigger church offering him a larger salary. I couldn't for the life of me understand how that could possibly be alright with God. That stuck with me for years, and eventually caused me to question everything about religion. Until I found the Mormon church, I was a very unhappy camper with religion. So while what you say above his true, I think the motives of some religious leaders can be such as what I state here.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
human 2.0, There are LDS church leaders who are given a stippened (sp?) when it is their entire lives dedicated to the work. That includes the Apostles and Prophet and Mission Presidents. However, not all of them take it and live off of retirement funds or other income. There is no information as to who or how many.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
All of the Church leaders I know (on local levels, that is, not the Apostles or Prophet, etc.) have "day jobs" that pay their way.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*nods* Most of the men I know who have served as mission presidents refused the stipend (they were able to live off investments, savings, pensions, etc. during that time instead.)
Posted by I Am The War Chief (Member # 9266) on :
COUGH :OSC P.S. This is all we're going to say on this topic here on Hatrack. This is not a place for discussing Mormon doctrine. I responded here because this was a sincere inquiry and deserved a full and accurate answer, which I have provided. If you have further questions, please write to me via the CONTACT button at the top of the Hatrack screen, and I'll steer you to the best sources on this subject. Meanwhile, this thread is closed. COUGH sry something caught in my throat.
Posted by Chris63084 (Member # 9873) on :
funny, it seems open to me...:)heh
(sending you a message)
Posted by I Am The War Chief (Member # 9266) on :
This was posted by OSC in another blog, if one conversation about mormonism is shut down why shouldnt this one? I just wanted to point that out. And I didnt ask to be contacted OSC did lol that was his qoute I suppose I should have cut it up more.
[ November 15, 2006, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: I Am The War Chief ]
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
I have two comments for you War Chief. The first is that you are not OSC or Janitor. Second, as someone who has read this Forum for a while I am familiar with OSCs "rules" about discussing Mormonsim. He doesn't mind a general discussion where there can be several topics. What he doesn't like is topics on Mormonsims that are about very specific aspects of the religion. If this one started to go that way then it would also be closed.
The reason for this is, from my understanding, specific topics can easily become both contentious and prosylitizing (sic) with both reasons for something to be closed as well in general topics. Of course, he can decide any post is worthy of closure. He owns this place.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Backwardly phrased is the title of this thread.
Posted by I Am The War Chief (Member # 9266) on :
hahaha this has not been my month, Occasional I never claimed to be OSC or Janitor, if this was meant as a slight, meh , I dont really care. Secondly
"What he doesn't like is topics on Mormonsims that are about very specific aspects of the religion. If this one started to go that way then it would also be closed."
Id say an ENTIRE SUBJECT line including myths around mormanism is specific but thats just me, and as most know I was allready explained the rules of this site in some previus post that shall not be mentioned ever again Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Actually, War Chief, I share your confusion. I am not completely sure how OSC decides what Mormon related topics he lets stand or stops. Most of my comment came from what I heard him say in the past.
My problem with what you said was how condescending it sounded. It was a bit sarcastic.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Since OSC posted in this thread, it's fair to assume he is aware of it and would have locked it had he wished to.
If he is displeased I assume he'll lock it. Until then, there doesn't seem much of a reason to discuss it.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I don't think they're overly systematic about it. Some topics will always get a mod smackdown, and others it may depend on the tenor of the question and the range of responses it elicited. This original question did attempt to tie in with a theme that does come up in Card's work. The locked thread asked "how can a seemingly reasonable person like Mr. Card be a member of a church which blah blah blah." It's not like there aren't plentiful themes in Card's work to relate to that subject.
But I was glad to have his answer, and with the thread locked the original poster can't delete the thread.
Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
I disagree with the locking of that particular thread (mostly because I was interested in the OP's responses,) but I see the logic behind it. As OSC said, Hatrack is not the ideal spot to discuss Mormon doctrine and other Mormon-related issues. For that, OSC has set up the forums on his Nauvoo website. Of course, since OSC is a prominent member of the LDS faith, the Hatrack forums attract a disproportionate number of Mormons when compared to the country at large, so LDS topics occasionally do pop up.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I'm sure if OP is so inclined, they could reply here. There is a bit of a problem in that only church members are invited to Nauvoo. But people can always try www.mormon.org. Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
I forgot that the Nauvoo Charter makes being LDS a pre-requisite. Still, it's a good place for discussions on Mormon doctrine.
Posted by I Am The War Chief (Member # 9266) on :
First off Occasional, wasn’t trying to be overly sarcastic I am sorry if I came off that way, but its nice to know someone else hasn’t completely memorized the rulebook here.
Back on topic, there's always going to be misconceptions about different religions or the other. When people hear I am Jewish reform, they ask, "where’s your little hat"? When I respond that reform is indeed different than orthodox there's usually a fair bit of confusion. As usual though the best treatment of ignorance is simple education so I applaud you Dark as Night and farm girl for informing the public.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: There are also lies. It's worth remembering that there are many people - most of them born-again Christians - whose "ministry" consists of deliberately distorting history and/or making stuff up in order to keep people from believing the message of the Mormon missionaries - basically, trying to immunize people against Mormons.
The actions mentioned above my OSC. the reply by KoM, and a recent article I read in Wired Magazine named "The New Ateism. No Heave. No Hell. Just Science. Inside the Crusade Against Religion" just infuriate me. I am a Christian and have encountered many times Jehovah’s Witnesses and the nice guys in white shirts on bikes coming to my door. I let them give their spiel and politely tell them I am a Southern Baptist and do not feel I should convert today, and then wish them luck on their way. Why can’t people just accept there are people on this planet that believe different than us? And that is, in fact, ok!
In the Wired article, the writer talks about how “New Atheists” are not content to allow believers (of any faith) to get away with their stupid beliefs. Furthermore, they should not be allowed to ruin their children by forcing their beliefs on them. The funny thing is, the writer states one of the leaders in this movement strongly believes in democracy. That made me laugh out loud, since our democracy was founded on freedom of religion among other things.
Religious intolerance, either between faiths or non-believer to believer, is completely unacceptable.
I have no problem with Mormons, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, or non-believers. If people would apply what they have learned from religion, parents, or common sense, they will know not to judge, lest ye be judged. Or in secular terms, “Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones”. (or something like that)
Posted by Glenorand (Member # 9444) on :
I've always found it interesting howhumanity lets little differences shange how we view people. But there are respites. I am a member of the LDS faith, and an avid Scouter, and i can tell you that although there are a lot of misconceptions about religions, there are also a lot of people who are willing to try to find out what he truth is behind the religion. This last summer I went to Philmont New Mexico and spent two weeks building trail and backpacking with the Boy Scouts of America. And we had members of numerous faiths. Jews, Cathoics, Quakers, Baptists, and in nearly every case, there was a part of someones faith that was grossly misunderstood. And we all approached with the knowledge that none of us were going to convert each other, but that we were helping each other understand our various faiths. It was an amazing experience, getting to hear the truth behind various religions, as well as the person's personal view on the religion.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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), but there's all kinds of interesting people over there who rarely post over here.
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Goodness, I've NEVER seen as much communtiy charity in any organization as when I was active in the Church. I think I was involved in helping somebody out just about every single weekend with one Church group or another. I'm happy to say that I still do community service whenever I have the time! It's a shame that the LDS church is accused of being a bunch of temple-building maniacs when their church administrators aren't even paid. ![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)