Okay, I've made this comment a few times in other threads (usually the "which one should I read next?" threads), but now I'm really starting to wonder.
Have *any* of the rest of you guys and gals read Hart's Hope? I can't seriously be the only one here who's read this book. Nobody else ever recommends it, and nobody ever seems too keen on discussing it whenever I bring it up. Nobody got my "Keeners On A Plane" joke!
If you haven't read it yet, what's been keeping you from it? Are you unable to find it, or are you just not interested in a real fantasy-fantasy novel with no roots in "the real world," unlike Card's other fantasies? Just not a fan of fantasy in general? I'm just curious.
If you have read it, what did you think about it? Maybe I'm just the only one who thinks so highly of it. Maybe I'm so into it because I was a ten-month child myself, although thankfully my mom didn't axe me.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yes, I've read it. Multiple times, even.
It's rather disturbing, though. I made the mistake (mostly because it was at hand) of loaning it one of my brothers who had expressed interest in OSC. And so it was the first (and therefore the only) OSC that he read. Bit of a tactical error . . .
The book is great, but horrible. Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
Hart's Hope is perhaps the most intricate and darkly beautiful book OSC has written. Card himself warns people about the "slow opening" and the languid grad-school-influenced pace, but it didn't seem slow when I first read it; I was instantly hooked. So many fantasy stories are merely warmed-over Tolkien, but Hart's Hope just throws that kind of traditional tale out the friggin' window in favor of something that is actually, I think, more powerful.
The book feels like this deeply weird mixture of anthropological science fiction --what with all the wonderfully varied cultures and communities implied-- mixed with the best of the really early fairytales, where bad things happen and aren't wrapped up in Disney cuteness. It's dark, sure, but there is a bright strand of hope running through it all that at least these things matter.
I think a comparison can be made between Hart's Hope (along with Card's other book Wyrms) and Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series in the degree of rigor involved in the world-creation and the interactions between different cultures that both authors imply (though of course the actual storylines are nowhere near similar).
Yeah. Safe to say I like the book. Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
I think Wyrms, Hart's Hope, and Enchantment are my favorite three stand-alone novels of all time. And then there are the short stories....
If I haven't said it before; thank you, OSC, for telling some fantastic stories.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Hart's Hope is awesome. One of the only books I've ever seen that WORKS in the second person.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
Ahh, so I'm not the only one! I am happy.
Zotto, I agree, and I'll have to check out Gene Wolfe.
Rivka - yeah, major tactical error! It is great, but horrible. And I love the ending.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
It's one of the best books I've ever read.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
At this point, I'm just an echo.
Great book. Terrible and great.
Posted by Oobie Binoobie (Member # 8059) on :
I've read it, once. I'd probably read it again, since it's something of an archetypical hero's journey type of story, if I recall correctly.
My brother was put off by Wyrms or Songmaster, I can't remember which. Early Card was certainly not afraid of the disturbing imagery, and my bro was disturbed.
Pity. I'll have to request Hart's Hope from the library again, to see if there's stuff I missed.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
I've read it once. It was excellent, but I wouldn't read it again. Profoundly disturbing quite often, to a degree not even Lost Boys managed.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ok, now that I disagree with. Lost Boys I managed to read once (twice if you count the short and the novel separately) and never, EVER again.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I love Lost Boys. I read it whenever I need a good cry.
Hart's Hope, I made the mistake of reading on an airplane with nothing else to read (so held a bit captive, nothing else to take a break with) while almost 7 months pregnant with my first child. I was so profoundly affected that I remember very little of the cool stuff I hear is in there, and have not yet been able to bring myself to re-read it.
Posted by Rotar Mode (Member # 9898) on :
As per Libbie's recommendation, I am reading it now.
Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
I've read it twice, long ago. It's on my shelf. Every now and then I look at it and think I should read it again. Then I go to something easier instead. Excellent, excellent book. Just hard to read. I wonder, though, if having 15 years or so between two readings, and the experiences I've had, would make it easier, or harder to read. Once I finish Empire I might have to pick it up for real and try it again.
Posted by Mix-up (Member # 9512) on :
I'm officialy gonna read it!!
(After I finish SotG, Empire, and my advance reader's copy of London Calling... I've been reading only Card for the past 6ish months, time for a short break!)
Posted by DaisyMae (Member # 9722) on :
Read it, own it, love it.
Posted by Jqueasy (Member # 7085) on :
I have read half of it twice. For some reason, I have been unable to finish that one. I will most likely try again years later, but right now I am reading the Homecoming series.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Libbie: If you have read it, what did you think about it? Maybe I'm just the only one who thinks so highly of it. Maybe I'm so into it because I was a ten-month child myself, although thankfully my mom didn't axe me.
I love it to pieces. Disney, it's not, but I'm not a big fan of the saccharine.
It changed my writing style for a couple of months after I finished it, which is an indication of how deeply I got into it.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I wanted to read Hart's Hope before I came into this thread, and now I want to read it so much more. I just can't find it in any bookstore/library I go to. I figure, eventually it will hit the local Half Priced Books, but until then, alas. Well, it's probably for sale online, but... I dunno, I like buying books in stores.
What was it that everyone found disturbing/horrible about the book? Is is just gruesome imagery and gory scenes, similar to in Songmaster? Or was it disturbing on a deeper level, like Lost Boys?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
The first chapter or so includes the rape of a young girl.
The girl then goes on to murder her infant child in order to obtain magical power.
Which she then uses to exact revenge on the king and the three gods that rule her world.
And then, chapter three starts.
.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
****************END SPOILERS*****************
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
vonk, you know your local bookseller can order a book for you, right? Just give them title and author and they can look it up and get it for you. Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: vonk, you know your local bookseller can order a book for you, right? Just give them title and author and they can look it up and get it for you.
And thank you Scott for the exessive spoiler warnings. I scrolled right past your message without ruining a future read.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
I enjoyed Harts Hope, although I dont think that I should have read it when I did (I think I was about 13 at the time)
Other than that, I loved the book. I had to start it twice due to the slow start, but once you get past the first few chapters it hooks you and becomes one of the best Fantasy novels I have ever read. Wyrms however is still my favorite.
Also, The Worthing Saga is completely AWESOME if you ever get a chance to read it.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
I thought that Hart's Hope read like a fever dream.
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
I *wish* I could read Hart's Hope. When I first heard about OSC, that's the book I wanted to read. Instead, the first book I read was treasure box, then Ender's Game.
My Library doesn't have any of his 'disturbing' novels. No lost boys, wyrms, or Hart's hope (I'm assuming that these are the more 'disturbing' ones.)
Actually, there's no songmaster either. I feel that I'm really missing some important OSC stuff... Oh! The Worthing saga.
Now for an abrupt change of subject. Second person? Really? Interesting...
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
Hart's Hope is my single favorite Card book. And I think I've said that before(possibly in other threads about Hart's Hope). I've even said it to Card himself. I can't say enough about the book...obviously.
It has the most fantastic prose I've ever read.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I read Hart's Hope. Luckily, it was after reading almost everything else OSC had written, but it (like Lost Boys) is disturbing enough that if it had been my first exposure to his writings, I may have been afraid to read anything else he wrote.
(It is a wonderful book, well written - I'm just talking about the emotional impact it gives the reader). Songmaster had a similar effect on me.
FG
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
It does have an extremely strong emotional impact, but that's why I love it. This is someone who loves re-watching Requiem for a Dream though, and most people think I'm nuts for it. I seem to be drawn to darker emotional stories.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
It's on my list, as are all of OSC's books that I haven't read. I'm reading Enchantment right now though.
Posted by skruesch (Member # 675) on :
Try reading Hart's Hope during a five day power outage by the glow of candles and a book light...it has a totally different impact, one I wasn't anticipating! Completely cool.
Posted by Shnabubula (Member # 9834) on :
Lots of beautiful imagery and some confusing stuff. But it's totally worth it as is anything written by Mr. Card just about.
Posted by Sibyl (Member # 10079) on :
It's Myth, what CS Lewis called "the Deep Magic". Like the real old fairy tales, lots of archetypal stuff. Not for 13-year-olds, pregnant women, or to be read by candlelight! Haunting enough in the full light of day.
Did somebody say "dark"? Or has that word been overused?
Great literature, Handle With Care.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
Indeed.
There are a number of very interesting ideas that Card explores in that book. One of the less mentioned ones is that he posits the use of a system of writing which allows mathmatical operations to be applied to existing statements to transform them into other meaningful statements. The way he uses this in the book, it's not really clear whether the mathmatical manipulation is simply arbitrary, able to produce any transformation, or whether the system actually functions as a sort of hyper-advanced logical (or perhaps ethical) calculus. Orin himself, with an innate talent for performing these transformations, can't decide whether there's some higher meaning in it all.
But the system of magic in which a blood sacrifice is necessary to gain power definitely dominates the tone and moral explorations of the book. Not to the exclusion of all else, just to the level that you really have to be forewarned when reading.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
POSSIBLE SPOILER??? TAKE CARE . . . . . . . . . . . .
I was about 13 too when I read Wyrms and Hart's Hope. I have a couple of very vivid images in my mind from each, although I'm pretty sure I don't remember the plot of Hart's Hope at all. (Is that the one where the protagonist is naked in a cage all night and has to stay warm enough to live? If so, that's really all I remember.) Still, even years later, I'm not eager to go back to either one.
And yet, maybe I should. I really loved both Treason and Songmaster, though unlike Ender's Game, I probably won't re-read either.
Posted by Sibyl (Member # 10079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Libbie: ... are you just not interested in a real fantasy-fantasy novel with no roots in "the real world,..."
Actually, I believe it's _all_ rooted in the Real World, if you consider the mind(s)/soul(s) "Oversoul" of all humanity "real". Maybe people need to read several other books first to notice just _how_ much root it has.
It's both one of my favorite books ever read, and I'd have to say it's my single favorite book by Card. There are others that, perhaps because of the presence of sequels (EG, for example) don't feel complete without them. Maybe it's because, unlike HH which ends the story without, in a major way, a real ending, EG ends the story without, in a major way, a real ending but then in later books goes on, to several real endings.
Beautiful and terrible is an excellent description. I'm not really interested in the prose (although I enjoy good prose when I see it), nor am I interested in first- or second- or third-person telling of tales (although, again, I enjoy quality in those areas when I see it) so I'm not really suited to comment on it on those grounds.
I just think it's an exceptionally well-told, beautiful and terrible and true story, true in the sense a fictional story can be true, discussed by Han in one of the EG books (I forget which one, exactly).
Posted by Sibyl (Member # 10079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I just think it's an exceptionally well-told, beautiful and terrible and true story, true in the sense a fictional story can be true, discussed by Han in one of the EG books (I forget which one, exactly).
I don't remember the precise Han quote, though I remember noticing at the time its similarity to a cliche (or proverb, or Eternal Truth) from church discussions--that "It may not be a true story, but it is a story about what is True." Like a parable. Or a Myth.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
Bumpity boo!
I just finished HH last night, after starting two years, not getting into it and trying again this past summer, getting gradually far enough since I had the time and then BAM! FINISHED! (last summer I had done pretty much the same with Jonathan Strange).
So... what do you think happend after the ending? Reminds me a bit of the lady or the tiger paradox...
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
What do I WANT to happen, or what do I think really happens?
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
What you think happens.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
I think they all decide to have a pizza party.
No, I'm kidding. I never dwelt on what happened, because I don't want to know. I like the story hanging with no ending. It keeps it beautiful and terrible in my mind, and that's how I like my OSC.
On a related note, my husband finally decided to stop being influenced by the shrieking masses on the internet and to actually give Card a chance to see whether he actually is a great writer (as my groaning bookshelf-o-Card would seem to indicate) even though there are so many people out there who like to say that he's terrible and talentless just because they don't know how to separate a person's politics from their works.
He said he was going to start with Ender's Game, since it's his "famous" book and everybody says it's his best. I told him NOPE, he's got to start with Hart's Hope, because *I* think it's his best, and I definitely think it's his most moving book with the most important message.
(By the way, I once got into a debate on the same forum full of the anti-Card crowd he frequents. The topic was, "Fantasy book with the most important real-world message." My vote was HH. I got flamed six ways from Tuesday. It took a lot of discussion, but I finally made a few of the haters admit that the book wasn't *about* child rape - it was *about* the horrible consequences of political power and whether there is innate goodness in a person or whether corruption can completely destroy it. Man, I can't stand it when readers let one shocking scene dictate the entire theme of a book for them. Take off the blinders and look at the big picture, PLEASE. Enough of this long aside, though...back to my original point).
Anyway.
He promised me he'd read Hart's Hope soon, but I might just give him the audio version, because trying to pronounce Enziquelvinisensee Evelvenin in your head gets kind of distracting.
I don't know how we manage to keep our marriage together when he's convinced that Card is a hateful jerk whose work can't possibly be worth the paper it's printed on (even though he's never read any of it) and I believe that Card will some day be regarded as one of the greatest writers of the 20th century (and possibly the 21st, too). But somehow we make it work. ha ha!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I like the story hanging with no ending. It keeps it beautiful and terrible in my mind, and that's how I like my OSC.
I like my OSC like I like my women -- beautiful and terrible.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:He said he was going to start with Ender's Game, since it's his "famous" book and everybody says it's his best. I told him NOPE, he's got to start with Hart's Hope, because *I* think it's his best, and I definitely think it's his most moving book with the most important message.
Um... I would not start on HH if I was him. EG is a much safer choice if you want him to like Card. I think HH is something you read after you're already a fan, for most people.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Agreed.
I made the mistake of giving my brother HH when he asked me for an OSC book to read (he was curious about the author I read so much of). IIRC, I grabbed it because it was the shortest OSC book I had at hand.
Very bad choice. Over 15 years later, my brother still won't read any more OSC (even though he believes me that many of the others are less shocking) and still likes to tease me about it.
Shoulda had him read EG.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Um... I would not start on HH if I was him. EG is a much safer choice if you want him to like Card. I think HH is something you read after you're already a fan, for most people.
In my husband's case, he'll love HH. He really likes unusual and emotionally difficult stories. His counterpoint to my shelf-o-Card is a shelf-o-Bukowski, so something tells me Hart's Hope will be right up his alley. Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
Shoulda had him read EG.
Heh heh - yeah, EG is better for most readers, I have to say. I've used the audio version of EG on three separate long car trips (captive audience!) to make not only new Card fans out of my friends, but new sci-fi and fantasy fans, too. I'm like an OSC missionary. Ha ha!!
I've got another road trip this weekend, but it's relatively short, so I might not be able to pull it off. Maybe I can get them hooked on OSC after only a few chapters. It will be an interesting social experiment.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Hey, Libbie. Where ya been?
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I just finished Hart's Hope and really liked it. It reminded me very much of Wyrms, but I don't know if I could articulate why. Maybe the strong visceral reactions or the build up to horrible/beautiful conclusion. I found the beginning to be much more disturbing than the end. The scene with Gallowglass's wife and daughters reaching out to Orem was probably the best horror scene I've ever read. I was cringing as I read it.
I also liked seeing the name Gallowglass. Was that in the Lost Boys short story, and did that come out before or after HH?
Also, a little off topic, in trying to find the release date of the Lost Boys short story I found this excerpt in the Wikipedia entry:
quote:Card has claimed that many elements of M. Night Shyamalan's The Sixth Sense were copied from Lost Boys, although he realized that enough had been changed that there was no point in suing.
I recall OSC saying that Lost Boys would never be a movie because of Sixth Sense, but I didn't realize he actually thought M. Night Shyamalan stole ideas from him. Is that true?
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
It's in Wikipedia so it MUST be true.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:OSC wrote, in OSC Reviews Everything (08/04) This isn't the first time. Sixth Sense was, absolutely, exactly what Hollywood was bound to do if it wanted to adapt a novel called Lost Boys -- you can't let the kid be dead, so ... you make it someone else who's a ghost without anybody knowing it, while the kid can still see dead people.
But the author of Lost Boys -- me -- knew that enough had been changed that there was no point in suing. Besides, if Lost Boys was filmed, I wanted it to be more faithful to the storyline of the novel -- and that film could still be made.
And maybe Shyamalan thought it up himself.
However, the first time he mentioned Sixth Sense (a few weeks earlier, here), he makes no mention of the similarities. I'm sure they didn't escape him, but he just said that the movie was brilliant and unforgettable.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Huh. So he doesn't actually say anything was stolen from Lost Boys, just that Sixth Sense would be what a movie version of Lost Boys would be, and maybe implies plagiarism by saying that "maybe" M. Night came up with it. But he doesn't actually claim anything. I guess that wikipedia article is biased. *shocked*
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: Hey, Libbie. Where ya been?
Working. A lot.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
I don't think Gallowglass was in the short story of Lost Boys. I too recognized the name.
The Lost Boys novel is based unofficially on Card's family and what happened after they moved to some Greensboro like town.
The Lost Boys short story has OSC using the names of his real family members and pretending that the whole affair actually happened and that he had another son older than Geoff. I'm pretty confident there's no pervy coworker because there wasn't that much detail in the short story, as it was in fact as short story. Like all short stories it focuses on the ending and tricking you into believing that the whole mess happened to OSC's family. My understanding is that pretty much everything that wasn't in the main plotline of Lost Boys, aka the stuff about Stevie, actually DID happen to the Cards.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Libbie:
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: Hey, Libbie. Where ya been?
Working. A lot.
Cool. As soon as you have time, we'd love to see some pictures.
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
I have read Lost Boys, since the start of this thread.
I also found the original paperback version of HH in a half-priced bookstore, and got it for half the price of the book in 1983 (Or whatever year it was that it came out).
$2.00
Definently worth it. LOL
This is the first 'second-person' book I've read, and it really worked. Although I couldn't figure out for the life of me who was writing the letter until the very end.
Wow. I've never read Card so dark before. I knew all of the basic plot points because I read his 'How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy' book when I was 13. <Sigh>
Keeners on a Plane... Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Card writes alot of surprisingly DARK stuff... it's odd comming from an "Ender's Game" or "Alvin Maker" perspective.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Ender's Game opens with the savage murder of a grade-school boy.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
And Alvin has quite a few close calls with death in Seventh Son.
Posted by Andrew W (Member # 4172) on :
Well I don't want to stir up a shit storm, but I think I'll have to hop on record and say that I hated Hart's Hope. Dark and twisted doesn't bother me (and I read it when I was younger, and if anything darker and more bloodthirsty), but the book just seemed pointless and just another uninteresting fantasy to me.
I don't really remember much of it but if I'm right guy gets rejected or something, goes off get some sort of army or whatever, invades, king pointlessly kills wife, invader pointlessly rapes princess, princess eats baby, makes invader rape new wife, takes over - blah something uninteresting about some bloody woodsman or some such - hero comes to evil city where she rules, visits lots of very dull places doesn't do much and I don't remember the rest.
Now I'm sure I've glossed over the parts that made all of you love it, I've asked other people to explain it's appeal to me before but they frankly did a piss poor job of it, and I was wondering if any of you can fill in things that are in it that are interesting, that I missed.
AW
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
I don't know. I thought it was a bit dry, and it took a little bit more effort out of me to read it than I prefer, but still, the effort was worth it to me. Maybe it's just not worth it as much with other people.
I know that Ender's Game is dark in theory, but it really didn't strike me as dark. I don't know why.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nathan2006:
Keeners on a Plane...
Finally, somebody appreciates my most brilliant forum joke ever!
The payoff took a long time, but it was worth it. Thank you for rofling at me.
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
No, thank you.
Posted by Steve_G (Member # 10101) on :
Hart's Hope isn't the same kind of book as Ender's Game. Nathan is right when he says it was a little bit dry, but I think Andrew should re-read it. For one thing, he missed out on the plot entirely... all his things are out of order. Hart's Hope was not an easy read, because the style doesn't lend itself the the easy pace of modern fiction. It was written in a sort of epic style, but was the type of tale that was all the more beautiful for the telling. It was Card's version of a classical trajedy, at least in my opinion
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Couple people said "second person" and I can't find my copy of Hart's Hope right now so please...someone just tell me...really???? That's not how I remember it at all.
2nd person like "You walked up the steps toward the entrance to the.." and "You were shaking from the cold" etc?
Really? Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
The language is considerably more formal, but yes.
It is less obvious in some chapters, which are essentially third person. But yes, the entire book is being spoken to a "you" who is referred to as "you" repeatedly.
Use Amazon's search inside feature, and search for the text "Shall I catalogue" to see one such example.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Thanks!
That's not quite what I was imagining...if the narrative reads like a letter written from one character to another, that's different (IMO) from a text that pretends the reader is a character. However, I can see that "second person" is an accurate way to describe it.
Posted by Nikisknight (Member # 8918) on :
Well, iirc, you could say that the reader is a character, since the first 2/3 or so are addressed to a particular character. You the reader are sort of listening in, as it were.
I find the pace of the book kind of the opposite of Earthfall. This book initially covers a broad span of time, then narrows in as important events begin happening quickly. Earthfall covers details of the characters lives and interactions in the first 1/2 to 3/4, then the pace quickens considerably covering weeks and months in a few pages, speeding to the inevitable conclusion. I like these aspects of the books. It's a lot like life, looked back upon, with certain memories vivid, then broad impressions covering many months or years.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Maybe I'm so into it because I was a ten-month child myself, although thankfully my mom didn't axe me. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)