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Our best students would often be better off getting access to a superb library and reading their brains out, but in solitude, without the risk of getting caught up in groupthink.

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Is this what homeschoolers do? The biggest libraries are on college campuses, and I haven't seen many homeschoolers there. And isn't learning from a variety of teachers better than learning from just your parents? Wouldn't you get at least some differing perspectives from a variety of college instructors (not denying that most of them DO have many of the same left-leaning opinions) .

He says the intellectualism in college presents an "artificial sliver of reality", but where is there any better place to get so many different perspectives? (without actually travelling, which is too much money) I've met people from all around the world and I've been thrust into dorm rooms with other students who've come from completely different cultures from my white-bred hometown.

Is staying at home being taught one perspective by your parents somehow giving you the real big picture? I mean, at least at college I hear some dissension on world topics. I don't see how homeschooling would give you more perspective than being at college.
 

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Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
 
First off, I'd wager that the amount of people who have homeschooled and now attend college is larger than you might think, ratio wise and all. I'd also wager that if you look at the GPA of students who were homeschooled and now attend college, you would see that it is very high. And I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, its just what I've noticed.

The thing about homeschooling is that there are many different ways to go about it. I'll give you the way my mom did it: Throughout elementary school, she was our primary teacher. We would sit down at the beginning of the week and look at where I was and where I needed to be by the end of the week. I had textbooks and if I wasn't where I needed to be, let me tell you ... well, it wasn't pretty. But, during the week, I had the freedom to do the work when I wanted (to an extent). For example, if I knew I was going to be going over to a friends house on Thursday, I would double up on my work for Wednesday and not have to do any school at all on Thursday. Just so long as I got it done by the next time my mom checked up on me. And I say 'to an extent' because there was enough work that it was impossible for me to wait until Friday to do it all.

In middle school, I had several teachers. Nowhere near the amount that public schoolers have, but I got a diverse smattering, including one lady who's influence sticks with me today. She took it upon herself to give me as hard of a time she could, being strict about the stupidest things. Her way of preparing me for the real world or something. I had "classes" (going over to her house twice weekly) with my older sister, her two children, and a couple of other kids.
One of the advantages of this was that I was able to do high school level work in 7th grade. I could, so why should I be kept from it? It was also during middle school that I became a voracious reader. I read everything, from Enders Game, to The Republic, to A Tale of Two Cities, to Mere Christianity, to Shakespeare, to Vonnegut, to cheesy historical fiction novels. You name it, I read it, especially classics. I went through the list in the back of one of those "Junior Classic" books and went to the library and checked out the unabridged version of every one of the books. And I read them (over a period of time of course). Then I started in the A's and started to read my way through the shelves of the library. Imagine my delight when I reached C and found a wealth of "Card, Orson Scott" at my library. And I was allowed and encouraged to do this. Not to the exclusion of my other subjects (such as science and math), but my mom made room in my schedule for me to read.

This continued in high school. But in high school, my mom and her group of friends who had taught us began to be in over their heads. So I had to teach myself. I took some classes at the local community college (ok, so I had 62 credit hours by the time I graduated high school). But the point is that I developed independence and discipline. I was able to work on my own. I discovered the level of effort I needed to put into my classes to get an A, put in that effort, and continued to educate myself in ways I thought beneficial. My dad gave me his college physics book, my mom bought me a old copy of Herodotus's Histories, I took up Scrabble and played obsessively, I dabbled in writing philosophy and political theory, even theology when I had a mind for it. I became proficient at computers (though I never got into programming. A shame really), I worked with my uncle repairing and remodeling houses and businesses ... I became, as they say, well rounded. And graduated with a 3.9.

And I also came to despise the public school system as I saw my friends become mindless masochistic marijuana smoking drones. Not every single one of them, but the large majority. I'll refrain from making any sweeping judgments of what I see the product of public schools to be, but suffice it to say I could go off on a rant if I didn't want to offend people I respect.

But, all that to say, not all homeschoolers did things this way. I've known a lot of people to be screwed up by homeschooling. I've seen parents who are completely laissez-faire, or parents who are completely restricting of what they allow their kids to do, watch, and even read, and seen how their kids ended up, and it wasn't pretty. So homeschooling is not without its flaws.

And now I seem to have lost my train of thought. This post has turned out longer than I intended. Basically what I'm trying to say is that in my humble, homeschooled opinion, homeschooling allows much more potential. It doesn't always work, but it can beautifully. Now, I haven't read OSC's essay or whatever, so I'm not sure exactly what I'm responding to, but the way I see it, homeschooling is the best preparation for college you can get. But, going to college is still important, for one reason: The degree. So far I haven't learned anything I couldn't have learned from books or a ride on a bus (I've found buses are the best way to get acquainted with diversity), but when I'm applying for a job, they don't look at what I know or the books I've read. The first thing they look at is the degree (I don't know this from personal experience, but from the qualifications I've read for jobs I would be interested in, they all require a degree).

So while it'd be nice if everyone had my mom and dad teach them from infancy, and it'd be nice if this so called "real world" didn't seem so dead-set on living out the Peter Principle, and so obsessed with degrees, until something changes, college is still a necessity. It's the path to college that is important. And that is where homeschool has its opportunity to shine.

One final anecdote. One of my best friends growing up was homeschooled. He was not intellectually inclined, but could use his hands the best of them (art, mechanic stuff, origami flowers, you name it). He was also extremely socially intelligent. If he had been in public school, he probably would have dropped out, or if he'd stayed in he would've had his spirit broken and most likely be dead in a ditch. Instead, because he was homeschooled, his mom was able to encourage him in the areas he excelled at and nurture him in the areas he struggled until he graduated (and before you insinuate that it was easier, I can guarantee it wasn't. I've written enough papers for my public school friends to see the kind of crap that's expected from you there). Now he has taken up photography and is an extremely happy, productive person. Take it or leave it, homeschooling works, given the right amount of effort on the part of the parents.

And I could go on about the importance of parents in society and how public school undermines their role, but I'll be merciful and end this post. I think it's my longest ever on Hatrack.


Edit for some clarification

[ February 09, 2007, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: Dr Strangelove ]
 

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Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
 
Just to clarify a few things...

I didn't see anywhere in my post that was attacking homeschooling. I'm just asking OSC to clarify what exactly homeschooling is doing "right" in his article (the newest "reviews everything" at the end).

The majority of homeschoolers I knew were taken out of public schools for religious reasons. They only socialized with their parents and other church kids. I'm wondering how this gives them a better, more encompassing view of the world than a public school, where you interact with students from different backgrounds.

That said, my little bombshell is that I was homeschooled, too--from 3rd-7th grade. In that time, I read more and learned more about the world than any other time. Because of my homeschooled experience, I was a better in every subject than my peers when I went back to public school. Because of homeschooling, I developed characteristics that fostered a love for learning, reading, and life.

That said, I wasn't able to make any friends till 11th grade. I was a smartass, and a brilliant smartass. I thought I understood everything about the world from all the reading I'd done. And believe it or not, I remember myself saying the exact same things about how flawed the system of "college" was--how everyone was just there to get the degree. It was disheartening. The problem with this whole line of thought was that I was only getting input/education from my family, because my dad knew what was best for me.

Long story short (edit: long), a lot of my opinions have changed in the last 4 years at college. I've learned the importance of gaining multiple perspectives and keeping an open mind. My homeschool experience taught me the important of knowledge and hard work, but it was also full of the very thing OSC accuses colleges of: groupthink and intellectualism. All of the homeschool kids were taught one way of thinking and learning--not to mention starting to think of themselves as "better" and public school kids as "other". One of my homeschool friends from church is going to college with me now, and it's like she still holds all of the exact same views her father taught her when we were in (the equivalent of) 6th grade. She's brilliant--the top of all of her classes--an extremely hard worker--but she has no perspective on life and the real world. She's still daddy's girl and she still thinks of all of her peers as "other".

This is just my experience. I've never met homeschooled kids that weren't harder-working and quicker-witted than their public school counterparts...but there's no doubt that they are also victims of groupthink and intellectualism. I guess that's why I was so surprised that OSC would write about colleges with such disdain, using the very criticisms I would use against homeschooling.

But just by saying that, I'm a victim of groupthink and bandwagoning with the intellectual establishment. It's this vicious cycle and I don't know what to think.
 

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Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
 
Well, at least that way you have multiple, competing versions of groupthink.

I don't think that humans can avoid groupthink. It's simply not in your nature, and individual humans aren't physically powerful enough to challenge even a small group, no matter how deluded that group is. You had a much better chance of confronting your initial groupthink because you were exposed to a powerful group that challenged it. So having diverse groupthinks benefited you.

Card is making the semantic error of defining groupthink in such a way that it excludes small, relatively powerless groups like families. Of course the family has a huge influence on the individual, but only on a few individuals, and that family faces real competition from other families and from megagroups encompassing millions of people. This error is justifiable if you define groupthink as avoidable levels of conformity. Which makes it a less exact but more useful term.

A bandwagon argument is logically fallacious, it isn't necessesarily false. Your conformity to the local culture helps you to prosper, because as a human you can't fight the group by yourself. All you can hope to do is choose a culture that is closest to your true beliefs.

In the end, Card is really just saying that there should be more choices between equally influential and intellectually diverse groups to join. In time, groups with mistaken beliefs should become marginalized and shrink in membership and influence. Groups with beliefs that are more predictive of reality should grow and prosper. No group should be allowed to monopolize, using an unfair advantage in numbers to suppress groups with competing views.

I don't agree with that, by the way. I believe that the group with correct beliefs has the natural right and duty to displace and eliminate all other groups. The group with incorrect beliefs that nonetheless obtains a monopoly will eventually be destroyed, though there is a good deal of suffering by those who have been forced into that group.
 

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Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
 
Launchy, I didn't think you were attacking homeschooling. I'm sorry if my post came across as reactionary. I think really a lot depends on what you define as diverse. I read the article (I hadn't when I posted last night) and I think Card is talking about intellectual groupthink. In college (and public schools), you aren't encouraged to diversify your education. You're encouraged to get a degree. In contrast, homeschoolers are encouraged to learn for the sake of learning. In my years of homeschooling, I was exposed, mostly through books, to a huge variety of opinions. As Survivor said, every group is guilty of groupthink. But as a homeschooler, I think I was intellectually offered a buffet of groups which to choose from, as opposed to the limits imposed by the public school system.

However, you're right in the sense that homeschoolers also are usually not exposed to the same diversity of culture and social situations. In that area, it falls prey to the narrow form of groupthink that college does at an intellectual level.

I suppose it's really a matter of picking your poison. Ideally, you can get the proper exposure to both buffets of groups, but the sticking point is that that level of exposure differs from child to child. I think I turned out alright, so I'm a fan of what I outlined my parents as doing, but I know people who turned out alright following very different plans. So it's all relative. But, I think Card is right in accusing colleges of intellectual groupthink (of the narrow sort) and lauding homeschoolers for at least having the potential to diversify. But, as I said, that's only half the story.


I should also note that I live in Florida, which, as was pointed out to me last night, has notoriously bad public schools. So perhaps my judgment is a bit clouded.
 

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Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
 
My mom used to suplement my education herself using curricula from homeschooling groups, but I was never withdrawn from school.

I went to very small religious schools, and I would say there was very little groupthink. But then again, our religion was decidedly not the same as what many religious homeschoolers get (ah, the glories of a Church which doesn't have any dogma).

In secondary school, there was a pretty even balance with regards to politics and even religion (Jews and Muslims were actualy over-represented with regards to the total population.) We also had a pretty good spread of international students for a school that was not officialy international.

I am not a great surporter of homeschooling for a variety of reasons. I will, however, admit that it may be the best option for a given child at a given time. Possibly for many children, but not for the majority, I believe.
 

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Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
 
My parents homeschooled me as a reaction to their own upbringing, which for both of them, was very dysfunctional and filled with alcoholism.

I went into public school at 5th grade, and while the social bs was painful, I quickly adapted and kept my love of learning.

As someone who didn't fit within the cogs of public school very well, I think homeschooling works, but parents need to make sure that they don't shelter their kids from certain realities, only to have the kid run smack into them when they go into college and into the real world. They can drill whatever they want into their children, but once they leave the nest, they'll realize their slice of life is but a part of a larger whole.

Learn the social game, but don't let it become your life.

I hope this comes across as intended. We'll see.
 

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Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
 
We could try playing "telephone" with your post to see it if does...but I'm too lazy for that.

I think that it would be best if kids weren't allowed into the public schools till they met certain basic tests for being "civilized". Of course, then everyone would try to push their two-year olds into the system to "prove" what great parents they were. So it might work better to not have public schools start till kids were a specific age...like thirty

This is relevant only in the sense that often the "culture" that a homeschooling parent wants to avoid is one brought about by having masses of uncivilized children trying to establish a social construct with very few adults around. I suppose if we were to apply it to university level education we could try and make it so that most of the courses were taught by untenured experts with practical experience in the field. Of course, that kind of thing would mean that some sorry sacks would be taking engineering classes from my dad right about now...it isn't a perfect system
 

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Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
 
Okay, I'll brag.

I'm homeschooled, and I got a 29 on my ACT. I'm brilliant. Most other homeschoolers are brilliant... Why? Because most of us are taught how to think for ourselves... I used a unit study, and this is the free-style type of homeschooling that most people use. I've been nominated to be one of the 'Who's Who in American High School Students', and I've been to a Governor's program in my state. I say this to reassure those who will probably be uncomfortable with the way I was taught.

We went to the library, got a bunch of books, and read.

It works.

No textbooks, and the way we proved we were learning was by giving speeches and writing essays. Not answering stupid questions.

Don't get me wrong, there are homeschoolers that pretty much have a public school system in their house. But It's not an unfair generalization to say that most homeschoolers 'have it right' by encouraging independent thinking, because they don't have a harsh regimented system of homeschooling, and they encourage reading, rather than rough memorization of facts. I went to the Governor's School, and I was shocked at all the kids, the 'gifted' kids, that just bought in to whatever they were taught.

Groupthink. That's what OSC was talking about. We read from different books, each written by different people, each with very different opinions.

Sadly, in most Universities, they encourage a 'family' feel. And they don't want this 'family' to be dysfunctional, so they can't have professors that don't agree with each other.

I've been taught at several universities (Because I'm so gifted and disgustingly talented as a result of being homeschooled), and all but one professor had the exact same view in each university, and most universities were the same.

I'm keeping this post short, because I want to start playing orisinal games again, so I am generalizing and keeping it simple. I know there are little intricate problems, and I know I'm being obtuse, but the only problem with homeschooling is that I never socialize, what with all the work I have to do...

Planting the corn, upkeeping the generator, hacking into government files to prove that they really *do* know why there are thirteen layers on the pyramid on the doller bill.
I don't date, I'm betrothed, and my sisters are given away to whoever can give us the most cattle... Well, except for my older sister, the old maid --- She has already started her period.

I kid, of course.

But, while some may not see 'how this gives them a better, more encompassing view of the world than a public school, where you interact with students from different backgrounds.', because ' They only socialized with their parents and other church kids.', I cannot see how children in a public school setting can expect to get a view of the 'real world' when they are seperated into classes where everybody is of the same age and grade level, and taught from textbooks written without a bibliography. (I'm terribly sorry if I've somehow generalized against textbooks, and hurt the feelings of those who wrote textbooks with bibliographies).

And yes, I realize how easy it is, and how common it is, for a homeschooler to turn up his/her nose at the public school system. But, my mom's a teacher at the local highschool, so I'm not completely in the dark about these things.

But, to sum all of this up, pretty much ever college or university I've been to encourages 'groupthink', and they do not like free thinkers. I'm not exceptionally obnoxious. I don't speak out in class much, even when they ask me questions.

And what's especially irritating is how they steer the conversation. They may say that every student is allowed to have an opinion, and share it with the class, so we can all acknowledge the different backgrounds of everybody, and see how varied and beautiful the 'real' world is, but it's not true. Students with beliefs similar to the professor's have much time to share their opinion, while free thinkers find their time cut short, and find themselves interrupted and frequently interrogated *by the instructer*!

And it's possible, although very silly, to avoid gorupthink all together. This is called being a 'non-conformist'. Non-conformists still let the opinion of the group control how they think - They just do the opposite, rather than go along with the group, and they do it just for the sake of being a non-conformist.

Anyway, homeschoolers probably do have the right of it. We, as homeschoolers, are usually independant, and not (As most people belief) socially retarded, or 'aloof'. And I can't speak for everybody, (Although I have for the majority of this post because I want to play winterbells, and it's quicker that way) but *I* am not a non-conformist under guise of a free-thinker.
Most homeschoolers are free thinkers. And that, I believe, is what OSC meant.

And, of course, this coincidentally lines up with what I believe. How convient.

However, homeschooling is not for everybody. And I do not believe that because I person isn't homeschooled, he'll end up a 'Group thinker'. And Homeschooling is not the only way to do things 'the right way'.

[ February 10, 2007, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Nathan2006 ]
 

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Posted by Hank (Member # 8916) on :
 

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Originally posted by Nathan2006:

And what's especially irritating is how they steer the conversation. They may say that every student is allowed to have an opinion, and share it with the class, so we can all acknowledge the different backgrounds of everybody, and see how varied and beautiful the 'real' world is, but it's not true. Students with beliefs similar to the professor's have much time to share their opinion, while free thinkers find their time cut short, and find themselves interrupted and frequently interrogated *by the instructor*!

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Most homeschoolers are free thinkers.

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All of the homeschool kids were taught one way of thinking and learning--not to mention starting to think of themselves as "better" and public school kids as "other".

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I'm homeschooled, and I got a 29 on my ACT. I'm brilliant. Most other homeschoolers are brilliant... Because I'm so gifted and disgustingly talented as a result of being homeschooled

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Originally posted by Survivor:
Have you ever seriously considered that they might generally be closed minded bigots?

Because if you haven't seriously considered it, then you don't have any rational basis for disputing it.

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I've only had one professor that was openly bigoted and closed-minded

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Originally posted by Lavalamp:
It concerns me that defense of one kind of life feels so much like an attack of other kinds of lives. Dr. Strangelove, in particular appears so biased against public school education that he is convinced that certain of his friends would've been dead in a ditch had they been put in such a terrible situation.

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When I was reading over my post, I seriously thought about going back and editing that particular part to add that this was his opinion, not mine. We'll never know what actually would've happened if he'd been put in that environment. But I can't imagine that in his particular case, it would be any better than where he is now. And you'll just have to trust me (and him) on that.

My bias against the public school system is hard to explain. On one hand, I hate what it's done to some of my friends. The blame doesn't fully lie on the school system, but in part it does, and in some cases I believe a large part. However, at the same time, I can't exactly say that if they'd been homeschooled everything would be alright. In some cases their parents were ... not the best, and in same cases they simply didn't have time. Both parents worked to provide for the family. Those types of environment are exactly the types in which homeschooling is a horrible idea. It requires time and effort, and if those aren't provided than I'll be the first to say that the potential and chances for the kid to be messed up is much greater than in public school.

And then there's the actual personality of the person. Some kids see homeschooling as a cage and they either fight against it strongly or are broken, regardless of how caring and nurturing the parents are. Some kids could go either way, and some kids (I put myself in this category) would be either broken or provoked to anger by being put in the public school system.

So yes, there are many paths to a life well lived. I'm sorry if my post came off as an attack against the public school system. To give a bit of context, if not justification, one of the people I care most about in the world is one of those people who I think was destroyed by the public school system. Every time I see him it makes me so angry, because I've seen his potential throughout the years and seen it slowly be eroded and subverted by ... well, I can't think of any non-offensive ways to put it. But my judgment is clouded because of him. Whenever I think of the public school system, his situation looms first in my mind, to the exclusion of all of the success stories and positive things that come out of it. So again, apologies if I seemed a bit unreasonable.

But I am biased, because of my experiences. I look at my close friend who is very happy now, and I look at myself, and I see the success stories of homeschooling. I look at my other close friend who is completely miserable and only finds solace in marijuana (again, his words not mine), and I see a horror story of public schooling. So my immediate opinion and personal preference are guided by the situations nearest to me. But on a grander scale, I do recognize both the dangers of homeschooling and (this is really hard for me to say) the beauties of public schooling.

To each their own.

On a side note, I also realize, as I think I mentioned, that many times public schooling is the only viable option. Since that's so often the case, I often ignore the problems of homeschooling and focus on the problems of public schooling, because the problems of public schooling are so much more immediate and pressing. If homeschooling isn't working, just put your kid in the public school. But if public school isn't working, taking your kid out and homeschooling them isn't always an option. So I would really like to see the public school systems flaws worked out.

But, I'm just a kid, and one with an acknowledged bias as well. So I'll leave that task to someone else for now .
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
I got into this after a lot of long posts, so hopefully I'm not overlooking anything. I just wanted to address a few things.

First, it is important not to generalize. I have known home schoolers who are in it to shelter their children from worldly influences -- to completely indoctrinate them in their own religious beliefs and not to have them even exposed to anything else until "they are old enough to deal with it." I have also known home schoolers who are in it for the educational benefit, and because they truly think that regular public school doesn't encourage creativity, independence, critical thinking, or the right pace of learning (both high and low end).

Note: I should probably add that unlike many of the posters, I was not home schooled. I mostly get involved in home schooling discussions because my bad public school experience has caused me to seriously consider home schooling my children.

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That said, I wasn't able to make any friends till 11th grade.

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I wish I could say that I see a connection between this and home school. I don't want to downplay this because believe me, I KNOW how painful it is not to be able to make friends -- but I didn't have much luck making friends until high school, either, and I was right there with the other kids the whole time.

Every parent, every student, every school...it's all unique. Good home school situations can address uniqueness better than public schools, but bad home school situations can't do anything for anyone.

Now, getting around to the topic at hand (finally)...groupthink. I think some people thrive on this -- on having someone else tell them what to think. I'm not sure if it's how they were raised or schooled or if it's a part of their personality. Those people, in college or anywhere else, are going to go ahead and find a group to think for them.

On the other hand, those of us who wanted to hear new ideas and learn had great opportunity in college to learn from a variety of different people (and not just professors). College was a great experience for me. I look back on those years very fondly as a turning point in my life.

I don't know about pre-college. I think there was a lot of groupthink going on and that my biggest problem with making friends was that I didn't buy into it.
 

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Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
 

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I'm homeschooled, and I got a 29 on my ACT.

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Originally posted by Amanecer:

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All of the homeschool kids were taught one way of thinking and learning--not to mention starting to think of themselves as "better" and public school kids as "other".

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I'm homeschooled, and I got a 29 on my ACT. I'm brilliant. Most other homeschoolers are brilliant... Because I'm so gifted and disgustingly talented as a result of being homeschooled

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Nathan2006, I'm not trying to pick on you, but I found your post indicative of the unfounded arrogance that I see in many homeschoolers. I think that far more important than homeschooling versus public schooling is parental involvement versus non-parental involvement. I think in many homeschooled families, parental involvement is largely a given. In public schooling, it's not so given.

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Of course my post was arrogant. I was being deliberatly obtuse. I like doing it in posts, because it keeps me from taking myself too seriously. I'm sorry, but how can I take myself seriously when I'm posting on a fan site for one of my favorite authors. So, I kid. True, I'm the only one in on the joke, but I still find it amusing.

And I know there are probably people who are thinking that if I don't take myself seriously, how are they supposed to take me seriously?

I won't dignify that hypothetical question with an answer (In other words, I don't know)

Besides, if I had not said that I was brilliant, people here would have already inferred from the rest of my post that I *thought* I was brilliant, and didn't say so, which just opens a can of worms. And I was, as I said in the beginning of the post, bragging.

And of course it was a generalized and unfair statement to say that homeschoolers were usually 'brilliant'. I realize now, that not every homeschooler may be brilliant. That was a conclusion based on the homeschooled kids I know.

Instead, I guess the brilliant homeschoolers are only the ones who were honored with my presence.

And yes, I am exagerating the arrogance, because I find it amusing, just as I exagerated it in the first post.

And, while I believe that all arrogance is icky, disgusting, and revolting (After all, who despises arrogance in others more than an arrogant person?), my arrogance is certainly not unfounded. Take that as you will, because that is not an exageration, and I am completely serious on this note. I realize that the ACT is a standardized test, and not a valid credential for 'independant' thinking, but for somebody planning to major in music, and somebody who's concentration has been primarily on music, that score was quite a bit of a confidence boost. I'm sure everyone is shocked that the arrogant homeschooler needed a confidence boost.

And, on an off note, I will concede to the point that homeschooling is not perfect, maybe not even that good of an education. It's just good in comparison to the education you would get in a public school. (Again, I'm being deliberatly obtuse. And I still think it's funny)

As I said before, homeschooling is not for everybody. I know somebody in twelve grade with a third grade reading level (Gee, thanks Mr. Bush for that no child left behind.), because her mom 'homeschooled' her, and the mother was on crack, and didn't teach this poor girl anything.

In case there is any doubt, since I was dreadfully general in my first post, I do not think this girl is better off because she was homeschooled, and I do not believe that she is going to be a free thinker.

And I will admit... If you buy a homeschool curriculum, it will most likely be identical to one in the public school system, only with a conservative, Christian slant.

And, my post is subjective. Just in case somebody here had some doubts. LOL. Listen, I know I was homeschooled in a way that worked, and that's good enough for me. But I'm not debating for or against... Oh who am I kidding. I'm not *trying* to debate about the validity of homeschooling. In responce to the original question:

1. Homeschoolers that I know have a very free system that allows the students to read from a variety of sources, and come to a conclusion.

2. You may not have seen many of us homeschoolers at the University library, because we forgot to wear our 'We're homeschooled' stickers, equipped with our name and the name of our homeschool curriculum, declared mandatory by the evil left-winged government.

3. There is no real big picture. You can go anywhere you want, learn anything you want from any number of people with differing views, but there is no 'big' picture of the 'real' world. The 'real' world is very different for everybody, and no big university is going to be able to teach a world view that applies to everyone. This is why homeschooling can be so valuable. Although public schools may not be able to tailor their curriculum to kids based on their talents and abilities, parents can. And when our talents and abilities are growing from a properly tailored curriculum, we are exposed to opportunities to learn more about the 'real' world, specific to us. I'm going to double major in Music Performance and something else (I haven't decided), and let me tell you, the world of classical music is very different from the 'real' world. You are your boss. When you join an orchestra, the conducter is your boss. And the entire 'music' world is a jumble of politics. I won't go into detail, and I've only expressed one aspect of the 'music' world, so you'll have to take my word on it that it is different from the world of, say, Business law.

And, I think all of us here can at least agree that all of those paths to a good life well lived include Jesus, praise God... Again, I kid.

But I have to meet my quota for the number of conservative, fundamentalist, religious references in a post. It's one of the requirements for homeschoolers.

Pro choice = Pro death.

There, that should do it.

I kid, again, in case anybody wasn't sure.

[ February 11, 2007, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Nathan2006 ]
 

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Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
 
I'm going to preface my comments by saying that I do believe that homeschooling is a wonderful option for some families and some children. I am not anti-homeschool. I live near a college designed for homeschoolers, I've met several of those students, and they're smart and cool people. I'd say that they're just as prone to groupthink as your average college student...which is to say, some are and some aren't. Some are threatened by hearing opinions counter to their own, others thrive on it.

Nathan2006, don't worry, I read both of your posts seeing--and laughing at--the deliberate exaggerations (although I'm sure you acknowledge that your exaggerations also reflect some things you actually believe ).

I just want to point out again that *most* homeschool students aren't anything--smart, freethinking, religious, dumb, whatever--just like *most* public school students aren't anything. You get brilliance from both systems, free thinkers from both systems, groupthinkers from both systems, and, sadly, undereducated fools from both systems. It depends on what the kid starts with, the involvement of the parents (as pointed out so wisely above), the effort & dedication put in by the student, and the skill of the teacher(s) in directing and facilitating learning.

I will say that most, if not all, homeschoolers who post to Hatrack are very intelligent. But as a self-selecting group, it's not a really good sample.
 

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Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Liz B:

Nathan2006, don't worry, I read both of your posts seeing--and laughing at--the deliberate exaggerations (although I'm sure you acknowledge that your exaggerations also reflect some things you actually believe ).

I just want to point out again that *most* homeschool students aren't anything--smart, freethinking, religious, dumb, whatever--just like *most* public school students aren't anything. You get brilliance from both systems, free thinkers from both systems, groupthinkers from both systems, and, sadly, undereducated fools from both systems. It depends on what the kid starts with, the involvement of the parents (as pointed out so wisely above), the effort & dedication put in by the student, and the skill of the teacher(s) in directing and facilitating learning.

I will say that most, if not all, homeschoolers who post to Hatrack are very intelligent. But as a self-selecting group, it's not a really good sample.

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First off, although it is through a carnival mirror, yes, they do reflect some beliefs of mine. <Grin>

Second, I agree all of your post (I know you'll sleep better at night knowing this).

I fell into generalization (Although, to be fair, I *did* say I was doing it), and I shouldn't have.

There are no *most* homeschoolers, or *most* public school kids. And I know the private school kids probably feel left out, so I'll say there are no *most* private school kids either.

I shouldn't have generalized, knowing the one basic truth that everyone should know --- All generalizations are false.
 

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Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
 
See, there you go again.
 

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Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 

quote:

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And, while I believe that all arrogance is icky, disgusting, and revolting (After all, who despises arrogance in others more than an arrogant person?), my arrogance is certainly not unfounded. Take that as you will, because that is not an exageration, and I am completely serious on this note. I realize that the ACT is a standardized test, and not a valid credential for 'independant' thinking, but for somebody planning to major in music, and somebody who's concentration has been primarily on music, that score was quite a bit of a confidence boost.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lavalamp:
The personal testimonials are completely irrelevant to the question.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amanecer:

quote:

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And, while I believe that all arrogance is icky, disgusting, and revolting (After all, who despises arrogance in others more than an arrogant person?), my arrogance is certainly not unfounded. Take that as you will, because that is not an exageration, and I am completely serious on this note. I realize that the ACT is a standardized test, and not a valid credential for 'independant' thinking, but for somebody planning to major in music, and somebody who's concentration has been primarily on music, that score was quite a bit of a confidence boost.

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I wasn't trying to suggest that you're not intelligent. What I am skeptical of is that your homeschooling experience made you score higher (or in general be brighter) than you would have in public schooling.

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Yeah, I got that... I was just a little prickly cause I'm not happy with my score.
And you'd be surprised how often my intellegence has been questioned, because I was homeschooled. But, that's somebody else's load, that I was putting on you, and you shouldn't take it... God give me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to... No, that's not it. Coffeecakes (That's my new swear word substitue. I'm hoping it will catch on)

Well, anyway, put some feel-good line in there that will fit.

It just hit a nerve, and that was *my* problem, not yours. Turns out, I take these things more seriously than I thought.

Go figure.
 

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Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 
Ah, sorry, didn't mean to hit a nerve. For what it's worth, you come off as an intelligent, good natured guy.
 

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Posted by The Mister (Member # 9619) on :
 
[hijack]

quote:

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Originally posted by Nathan2006:
I've been nominated to be one of the 'Who's Who in American High School Students',...

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Mister:
[hijack]

quote:

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Originally posted by Nathan2006:
I've been nominated to be one of the 'Who's Who in American High School Students',...

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I would suggest not putting that on your [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who's_Who_Among_American_High_School_Students]list of accomplishments[/url] just yet...

<<<Hey, why won't my link work? UBB Code is supposedly enabled.>>>

The "Who's Who" company merely makes lists of students and their accomplishments, as submitted, and gets parents to purchase these lists in an overpriced book form. Yes, you have to be "nominated by a school official, youth activity sponsor or educational organization" and have a B or better GPA, but that pretty much makes the book a list of teachers' pets.
[/hijack] :shrug:

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I knew that... I just wanted to see if *you* knew.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Homefeeding Children: Threat or Menace?
 

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Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
 
I love that. (There's a shocker)
 

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Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
 
I homeschooled for one year. I hated it. Being in band from the sixth grade, I looked forward to marching in the band at halftime. Then, when it was my time, we had to travel with my dad's job and so I had to homeschool. I was also a very social person and being in a new town and trying to find something to do with absolutely no friends was difficult.

I really have no opinion on homeschooling. For some people it is the best, for me it was a prison sentence.
 

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Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
 
I don't know about homeschooling. I went through the mill of the English edukashun system from Playschool to University.

I can't help feeling that I learned more in the corridor or playground than I ever learned in the class.

Now as a parent I have to consider the options, but I can't help feeling that the social contact that my son is enjoying in his nursery is doing more for his development than any "educational activities" that we do at home.

If we were to take him out of the mainstream schooling system to educate at home, we would be concentrating on only one side of the shooling process. Grades aren't everything after all.
 

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Posted by Adam_S (Member # 9695) on :
 
My mom could have homeschooled me at any point if she wanted to, and I plan on doing what she did, watching my child carefully and lovingly and deciding if he or she benefits most from homeschooling, private schooling or public schooling more.

I was entirely public schooled, had a uniformly excellent experience and the average ACT of the college prep group of 75-100 students was probably Nathan's 'disgustingly brilliant' score. I beat the pants off Nathan's score and topped the school in ACT and SAT scores that year (despite being on 16th in class standing), none of it really mattered to me because I got into the college I wanted, even if I was only undeclared.

I had one incompetent teacher in eleventh grade, and a teacher I hated in sixth grade, but that was it for negatives. and my family moves a lot, I think I attended seven different schools, altogether, over a wide range of communities.

If anything I think college is much too long and designed all wrong as a form of advanced/career oriented education. If we were to radically reorient higher education, we'd see the changes necessary to improving secondary and elementary education start to occur naturally.
 

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Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
 
I think that the primary social contact that children need is contact with adults.

That's why we make all these distinctions between adults and children, because children depend on adults for all of their primary needs. A child who has to depend mostly on other children for affection and respect is recognizably a tragic/pathetic character whenever we see them in any context other than our own public school system...what makes our schools so special that they represent an exception to this universal law? Only the fact that we're used to doing things that way.

Why do we get so much more outraged over inappropriate contact between adults and children? Because that contact is far more important to the social development of children, it has far more power in their lives because children instinctively are trying to model themselves on adults.

I can't speak from personal experience, because human adults simply aren't up to the task of providing appropriate role models for someone like me. I can't really see that big a difference between human children and adults. But humans can see a big difference. Particularly human children. Children, whatever their species, have a strong need to have all their social needs met by the adults of their species. That's what makes them children.
 

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Posted by jeeshkid (Member # 9885) on :
 
I go to a private middle school and I'm mixed. It's Ok, there are things I like but there is not very much choice. The teachers control everything. Also, one of my teachers doesn't teach. She stands at the front of the classroom and reads study questions off a sheet of paper but we never get anywhere because everyone is so worried about class participation grades that they all reword the same ting and say it over and over again and the teacher ether doesn't care or doesn't know. Another thing is that practically nothing matters except grades. Everything revolves around them. The teachers say it's the effort you put into it that counts but they can't know how much effort you put into something so it comes back to did you get the answer right. And if the teachers aren't putting pressure on grades the students are. We talk about grades if only asking if your friend is happy or not. But, I have never been home schooled so I really don't know if it is better or worse.
 

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