Hi, I'm not new here. This isn't my first visit to the forums. But after so long skirting around on these forums i just wondered why i only just got around to reading The Tales of Alvin Maker... well, as far as Prentice Alvin at least. (I had two 9hour car journeys to and from Scotland in one long weekend - even i didn't expect to read the first three in just one week!)
Superb, enlightening, yet in a way very familiar.
I had Seventh Son sitting on my bookshelf for 3 years before i picked it up to read... now i'm looking at The Memory of Earth - which has been sitting next to it unread for just as long - and wondering what else i'm missing out on.
Damn you and your interesting and enjoyable novels Orson Scott Card! As though making me read the Enderverse books compulsively wasn't enough! It'll be Christmas before I get around to something by another author! Try and be fair to them and write something standalone - I lack the ability to start a series and not read all the way through to the end in one go!
Posted by Cyronist (Member # 9691) on :
I Like To Capitalize The First Letters Of Words Too! =P
Anyways, I've come to realize that ANYTHING OSC writes is good, and I've been trying to pick up as many of his books as I can. I hope to read all of them some day, but some have been hard to find.
Oh well, I'll get them all eventually.
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
I've never read the Alvin books. And after reading the Homecomming series a few years ago, I refuse to read any more of OSC's series.
Posted by Uindy (Member # 9743) on :
Why did you refuse to read any more of his series? I'm just curious.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
Heh, Proteus, that's exactly what happened to me. The Ender books sucked me in, and then there was no going back. Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
quote:Originally posted by Uindy: Why did you refuse to read any more of his series? I'm just curious.
I've pretty much read everything else Card has written. I dig his one shot books like Worthing, Wyrms, Treason, Lost Boys, Homebody, etc. I really liked the first 3 Ender books. I read the first few books of Homecomming and loved them. Then the series got worse, imo. By the time I was done with that series, I was pretty disappointed in it. That was compounded when I found out on what he based the series.
So I have resolved not to read any more of his series. After Homecomming, and after the disappointing 'new' Ender/Bean books. In general, I find that books in a long series get worse as authors 'stretch' the series out to get more books published. THe quality suffers. No matter the writer.
[ April 17, 2007, 04:30 AM: Message edited by: stihl1 ]
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
There's a sizeable contigent of people who don't like the Homecoming series (especially the last few books, which stand as the worst OSC books ever, IMO), yet still like pretty much everything else.
The Alvin series is exceptional, your half-formed theory about series nonwithstanding.
Posted by Luet13 (Member # 9274) on :
Aw, I like the Homecoming series. Even the dreaded conclusion that everyone seems to despise. I love the story, the characters and being able to see how everything turns out for the most part.
Posted by striplingrz (Member # 9770) on :
I read most of the homecoming series a couple years ago, the first 3 books consecutively. They were all awesome. I got around to reading the 4th about a year later, it wasn't bad, a bit weird at first, but hey OSC can be that at times. I've had the last book on my shelf for quite awhile and just never wanted to read it, but a few weeks ago I dove in and was really pleasantly surprised. Its good, and worthy of the series.
I find it laughable that someone would think less of the series after finding out it somewhat (and very minutely i might add imo) mirrored a few BOM stories.
I don't mean to criticize, to each his own I guess, but it shows quite a bit of bigotry.
And quite frankly, the Alvin books are exceptional. For my money, they are better than the Ender stuff. Don't get me wrong, I love Ender's Game/Shadow, SFTD, and even the other books in the first series. (I don't care much for the Shadow series aside from Shadow itself.) But the Alvin series is absolutely wonderful. And to refuse to read it because of an ill view of another series is just silly to me. But again, thats just me.
Not trying to start a war or anything stihl1, I actually agree with a lot of your other posts in other threads. I just myself on the other side of this one with you.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:Originally posted by Luet13: Aw, I like the Homecoming series. Even the dreaded conclusion that everyone seems to despise. I love the story, the characters and being able to see how everything turns out for the most part.
Me too. I'd even say that the last book was one of my favorites, second to MoE.
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
quote:Originally posted by striplingrz: I read most of the homecoming series a couple years ago, the first 3 books consecutively. They were all awesome. I got around to reading the 4th about a year later, it wasn't bad, a bit weird at first, but hey OSC can be that at times. I've had the last book on my shelf for quite awhile and just never wanted to read it, but a few weeks ago I dove in and was really pleasantly surprised. Its good, and worthy of the series.
I find it laughable that someone would think less of the series after finding out it somewhat (and very minutely i might add imo) mirrored a few BOM stories.
I don't mean to criticize, to each his own I guess, but it shows quite a bit of bigotry.
And quite frankly, the Alvin books are exceptional. For my money, they are better than the Ender stuff. Don't get me wrong, I love Ender's Game/Shadow, SFTD, and even the other books in the first series. (I don't care much for the Shadow series aside from Shadow itself.) But the Alvin series is absolutely wonderful. And to refuse to read it because of an ill view of another series is just silly to me. But again, thats just me.
Not trying to start a war or anything stihl1, I actually agree with a lot of your other posts in other threads. I just myself on the other side of this one with you.
Your stance solidifies my opinion of reading the Alvin series. Not gonna get my money for those.
Posted by Glenorand (Member # 9444) on :
Here is something my brother told me a few months ago after getting back from his mission in Brazil. That he found quite a few instances in Ender's game where he saw that were most likely influenced by Card's mission experience. He also went on to tell me that I would see it after I go on my mission. And I have to agree, disliking a book simply because of what it is based on is absurd. If you follow that logic, then I should hate most literature because i personally dislike the works of William Shakespeare. And how much of today's literature can be found to be based on major parts of his writing?
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
I disliked the last books (of the series) because they sucked. I was additionally disappointed after. I don't need to be sereptitiously evangelized. The same goes for any other religion or philosophy. At the least, I would have liked to have known before reading the books.
I will add, I willingly read Folk of the Fringe, Saints, and Lost Boys knowing the mormon content of those books. And enjoyed them because of it. Saints nearly convinced me to become a mormon. I also knew about the missionary experience content of Speaker and Xenocide and enjoyed the background on the Portugese background of the books.
And I still stand by my theory of book series'.
Posted by striplingrz (Member # 9770) on :
Cool stihl1, I'm glad to know you don't read a book just because it has "mormon" in it. It sorta sounded that way in your first post above. So I'm glad you clarified.
2 more observations though.
- " At the least, I would have liked to have known before reading the books." Are you expecting a warning on the cover or something? "Warning, this book contains content that may be objectionable to non-LDS" LOL
- I know I'm not going to convince you to read the Alvin Maker series, but its really a shame you won't even give it a try. The Seventh Son is the first book I recommend to people new to OSC. *shrug* All I can say is your loss.
On a side note, I'm reading "Lost Boys" right now for the first time. It hasn't gotten going yet, but I keep thinking of this thread when reading it since the main characters are so openly Mormon. Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
quote:Originally posted by striplingrz: Cool stihl1, I'm glad to know you don't read a book just because it has "mormon" in it. It sorta sounded that way in your first post above. So I'm glad you clarified.
2 more observations though.
- " At the least, I would have liked to have known before reading the books." Are you expecting a warning on the cover or something? "Warning, this book contains content that may be objectionable to non-LDS" LOL
No, but I like when OSC puts prefaces to his books explaining how and why he wrote them. I would have read the series anyway, but I would have liked to have known ahead of time. That's all.
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
PS Lost boys is really good.
Posted by kristina msp (Member # 10359) on :
After I finished all of the Ender/Shadow books (loved them and I live by them)....I didn't know what to do next. I was so tossed between the Alvin and the Homecoming series that I ended up getting Enchantment instead of choosing. Enchantment was OK. I finally decided on the Homecoming because the books are longer in general. I read the fist 2 and didn't have a strong desire to read more. Then I read thE Worthing Saga...It reads slow, but gives you alot of interesting things to think about. Now i'm back to where i started. I don't know what to read next. Most say that Pastwatch is boring...? I feel hassled everytime I remind myself that I have to finish the Homecoming series. Should I give Alvin a chance, or should I patiently wait for the next Ender/Shadow ?
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
Pastwatch is one of my favorite OSC standalones.
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
quote:Originally posted by kristina msp: After I finished all of the Ender/Shadow books (loved them and I live by them)....I didn't know what to do next. I was so tossed between the Alvin and the Homecoming series that I ended up getting Enchantment instead of choosing. Enchantment was OK. I finally decided on the Homecoming because the books are longer in general. I read the fist 2 and didn't have a strong desire to read more. Then I read thE Worthing Saga...It reads slow, but gives you alot of interesting things to think about. Now i'm back to where i started. I don't know what to read next. Most say that Pastwatch is boring...? I feel hassled everytime I remind myself that I have to finish the Homecoming series. Should I give Alvin a chance, or should I patiently wait for the next Ender/Shadow ?
Maps in a Mirror. It's the short story collection and there's a ton of stuff in there, you're bound to find something you like.
Posted by striplingrz (Member # 9770) on :
Alvin, and you won't be sorry. In fact, after reading Seventh Son & Red Prophet you'll be so hooked you will not have to worry about what to read for a month or so. (Assuming you read at my speed of course)
Posted by kristina msp (Member # 10359) on :
i have a binge reading issue. i dont think my sleep schedule will ever recover...
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I was never able to get into the Alvin Maker series, but I loved the Homecoming series. I didn't know what it was based on until after I had finished it.
As for Pastwatch, that's definately one of my favorite OSC books.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
Kristina- you should definitely try the Alvin series. At least Seventh Son. I didn't think I was going to enjoy them either when I first tried them, but they turned out to be quite interesting to me.
Also, stihl1's suggestion was a good one, because you can look at all kinds of Card's stories that way. Maps in a Mirror is nice in that you can read just small stories, and you don't have to commit to reading an entire series.
Posted by SkeletonRock (Member # 10563) on :
I really loved the first few Homecoming books, and the 4 was just so so and I never read the last one.
All this talk of mormon stuiff has got me wondering, are the Alvin books based on the story of Joseph Smith? I've never read them, but everyone seems to love them. From what little I know about Alvin and the small amount I know about Joseph Smith they seemed similar, but like I said, I've never read them.
Posted by SkeletonRock (Member # 10563) on :
Oh crap. I just posted in a thread that's a month old. Sorry for awakening a dead thread.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
quote:Originally posted by SkeletonRock: All this talk of mormon stuiff has got me wondering, are the Alvin books based on the story of Joseph Smith?
To a degree, yes.
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
But, now that it's awake...
I read all of the homecoming saga, and loved all of it. I didn't know it was based on the BOM. I actually thought it was based on the Bible, going in to it. After reading the second book, I knew I messed up. <Grin> My favorite was the third book. That was the best one.
I read Seventh Son, but my library doesn't have the second or third books in the series. It has the fourth and fifth, but that's it.
I'm so angry. I really liked Seventh Son!
Enchantment and Pastwatch are my two favorite standalones by OSC.
I understand how the book idea came to the author can affect your opinion of the book. I've read more Stephen King books once I read his 'On Writing' and found out he wasn't just a psychopath who wrote out his secret fantasies.
But, just the same, where the ideas came from really only affects my opinions in an ameliorative way. Excuse my spelling, please. But, I don't consider LDS influence to be a negative factor. But that's just me.
Posted by striplingrz (Member # 9770) on :
quote:Originally posted by SkeletonRock: All this talk of mormon stuiff has got me wondering, are the Alvin books based on the story of Joseph Smith? I've never read them, but everyone seems to love them. From what little I know about Alvin and the small amount I know about Joseph Smith they seemed similar, but like I said, I've never read them.
Only in the aspect of young boy doing special things. And I think the broken bone in the leg part towards the end of "The Seventh Son" is probably similar to the saving of Joseph's leg when he is a boy story. Other than that though, I don't really see them as the same. But its probably totally in the eye of the beholder. Posted by Pam Tyler (Member # 10595) on :
My first exposure to OSC was in an issue of Asimov's and it was an Alvin Maker story. I find that I am enjoying his writing more and more, even reading all of his essays. As a non-Mormon, I do not feel that the Mormon component is overwhelming, and I feel that with the Ender books he treated the Catholic faith with respect.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nathan2006: I read Seventh Son, but my library doesn't have the second or third books in the series. It has the fourth and fifth, but that's it.
I'm so angry. I really liked Seventh Son!
Why don't you just request books 2 and 3 through inter-library loan? The fee for that would be either non-existant or nominal, and it rarely (in my experience) takes the library long to secure copies for you.
Be sure you return them on time, though! Late fees for inter-library materials are usually a lot stiffer than they are for local materials.
Posted by Ingenieur (Member # 10603) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pam Tyler: As a non-Mormon, I do not feel that the Mormon component is overwhelming, and I feel that with the Ender books he treated the Catholic faith with respect.
As a non-Mormon myself, I completely agree. Even though there are religious undertones in many of his books (some more than others), I have never had a problem with it.
Personally, I love the Homecoming series; I'm rereading the books right now. Part of why I love the Homecoming books is because they are mythic, and they wouldn't be this way (or as mythic) without the religious undertones. However, I do understand what some of the other members have been saying about the last two books in the series. I just finished the fourth book two days ago, and I thought to myself I don't want to start another book with a whole new set of characters to learn about - I want to read about the characters I know and love now. But as I thought about this issue some more, I realized their story was done; it was time to move on. Also, ending the series there wouldn't have been enough. There were still too many loose ends hanging around. Anyway, what I'm saying is that there's a reason for the series being the way it is, and I, for one, happen to like it just the way it is.
BTW, was anybody else horrified about the editor mistakes referenced in the latest review by OSC (6/10/07)? I thought I was the only one who seemed to be noticing more and more mistakes in newer books... I guess it's nice to not be the only one, but I would rather the mistakes not be there at all.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by striplingrz:
quote:Originally posted by SkeletonRock: All this talk of mormon stuiff has got me wondering, are the Alvin books based on the story of Joseph Smith? I've never read them, but everyone seems to love them. From what little I know about Alvin and the small amount I know about Joseph Smith they seemed similar, but like I said, I've never read them.
Only in the aspect of young boy doing special things. And I think the broken bone in the leg part towards the end of "The Seventh Son" is probably similar to the saving of Joseph's leg when he is a boy story. Other than that though, I don't really see them as the same. But its probably totally in the eye of the beholder.
Alvin is based on Joseph Smith, and the Alvin books are allegory. So the answer to the original post is 'yes'.
Posted by striplingrz (Member # 9770) on :
You state that as fact... I'm not arguing, but do you have proof of this?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
It's been discussed many times. Check some of the older threads and you will find a wealth of information on similarities, influences, etc.
And I am rather amused that every time I re-read the Alvin books, I catch another "Mormon in-joke" that I had previously missed.
Posted by striplingrz (Member # 9770) on :
Oh I'm not denying the Mormon influence or the other Mormon-in jokes. I'm just saying just because Alvin is similar to Joseph in a way or two doesn't mean he is based on Joseph.
And honestly I don't think searching any older threads will point me to a post from OSC stating that as fact. Prove me wrong...
Anyway, its not really that big a deal I guess. Like I said above, its in the eye of the beholder and I choose to think Alvin is not based on Joseph, just similar.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Alvin is based on Joseph. OSC has stated that as fact. It's actually pretty freakin' obvious if you read the books -- especially if you know how OSC has (repeatedly) said that he intends to end the series.
Let me repeat: it is an open and acknowledged allegory.
Posted by striplingrz (Member # 9770) on :
Ok, I'll say I'm wrong, even though you didn't point me somewhere, and you were ruthlessly rude with this comment...
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: It's actually pretty freakin' obvious if you read the books -- especially if you know how OSC has (repeatedly) said that he intends to end the series.
Let me repeat: it is an open and acknowledged allegory.
Guess I'm just some kind of stupid idiot. Excuse me for not having the knowledge of these boards and OSC's every comment on the subject.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I didn't point you anywhere mainly because every link I can think of that would be of use to you in this conversation ALSO contains serious spoilers for the end of the series, which is sort of problematic if you don't already know them. But also because I'm lazy.
By the way, while I certainly don't think you're a stupid idiot, it seems to me that speaking with sweeping authority on a subject, only to have to go on to say something like "excuse me for not having the knowledge..." is probably inconvenient for you. Perhaps a little less defensiveness in the early going would help...?
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: If you base a character on a real person, as I did in basing some of Alvin's life on incidents from the life of Joseph Smith
If you have much familiarity with the life of Joseph Smith, the parallels are obvious.
Posted by striplingrz (Member # 9770) on :
Thanks for the link Amanecer.
Tom, in fact I have read the series. I however haven't done the research on OSC's every comment on the subject and hence had no idea about what he said. And at no point do I think I portrayed having "a sweeping authority on the subject". Rather I said multiple times I think its in the eye of the beholder, and that to me there are similarities, but not so much that it caused me to think Alvin was Joseph.
Anyway, I think we should leave it there. Thanks for the info.
Posted by Milli (Member # 10636) on :
I started to read the Alvin series. I couldn't read the second book though. After the first one, I had a nightmare and my mommy told me to stop reading them.
That was a very long time ago. But I still listen to my mommy.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
Excuse me for not having the knowledge of these boards and OSC's every comment on the subject.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)