My first post dealt with what we like about OSC and his works. This one is the opposite. Same rules apply, it is okay to dissagree, but don't attack the person, attack the thought.
The one thing I have always dissagreed with OSC about is more of a artistic dissagreement. I felt that building such a phenomenal character as Ender and then leaving him out of most of the series was a huge mistake. Well, perhaps not a mistake so much as it left a large hole in the world of Enders Game. He changed so much in the time that he was alive and did so much and it felt like, while he went so slowly and mythodically through the first 15 years of his life... the last, what? 70 or so years seem to fit into mere pages. Is this what I should take away from the series? That life ends at 15? I certainly hope not!
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Welcome to Hatrack!
You're wrong.
Have you read the three books dealing with Ender's life after 'Ender's Game?'
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
Scott R: Do you welcome everyone that way now?
Then again, you're right. Speaker, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind do give Ender's life after the Bugger war a point. You should definitely read them, Ish.
Posted by Ish (Member # 11579) on :
I HAVE read them, and I still feel like he was a side character at best. While an influencial person in the Lustintanian colonies story, he was NOT the driving force that made the story move. I felt like the thoughts of Ender and the emotions we once connected to him with were lost.
I get that they are much more philisophical in nature than Ender's Game, but to be honest, that doesn't mean I want to lose touch with a character I've grown up with. I felt like the years he spent on the ship (prior to Speaker) that were basically un-documented, made him a stranger to me. After the bugger war, we had no real "de-breifing" of emotions and structuring of an Adult Ender.
Thus, Andrew Wiggin became a completely different character. Unknown (to me at least) as far as the first book was concerned. I didn't feel anything that really tied him back to himself. At least not until the end of Xenocide. Even then, you get the feeling that you are still dealing with a completely different character. And there was no transition into manhood that prepared me for that, so as a reader, I felt like a mom who had just watched her son blow out the candles on his 12th birthday cake, only to moments later watch him get married and move off far away from me.
I will revise my statement that it was fit into mere pages, perhaps chapters is the correct word, but you still cannot make me believe that Speaker, Xenocide or Children were ABOUT Ender, like Enders Game was. They are stories of a society, or ideas and philosophies that Ender ended up witnessing, become a speaker for and a part of. But that does not make it his story, and his life.
I'm still waiting to know what he was thinking all those years, and what made him the Adult he was.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Originally posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer: Scott R: Do you welcome everyone that way now?
To be fair, I think Lisa was the first person who started welcoming people that way.
But yeah, it's either that or by eating them.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I have to admit that "Welcome to Hatrack; you are wrong" makes much, much less sense as a welcome here than it does at Ornery, where it originated.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I don't know-- it got kacard to laugh at me once. I think that's proof of its utility here.
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
I haven't read the last three Ender books for some time, but I remember that after his arrival on Lusitania, he was able to begin and maintain many changes on the planet. It's where he placed the new Hive Queen, he was able to help remake the relationship between the Humans and the Piggies, and he had something to do with the discovery of instantaneous travel.
He was hardly a side character. I think it's just hard for some of us to get used to Ender's being an adult. It was for me.
As for the "missing years," by the end of Ender's Game, he IS the man he would become. He is The Speaker for the Dead and The Xenocide, all at the age of 15. The rest of it is just events. Significant events, certainly, but nothing that would fundamentally change his nature between the end of EG and Speaker.
Posted by Ish (Member # 11579) on :
Perhaps, I just felt like Ender was very very far away in all three books, especially Xenocide. Speaker for the Dead force me at least, to focus more on other peoples interactions and issues with the Piggies and as such I didn't have time to ask "well, what does Ender Wiggin think?"
I didn't see him as the soft, yet powerful young adult he should have been. If he was the person we left him as in Ender's Game he would have been a rather confused young man, turning into an even more confused adult. None-the-less, one willing to make decisions and get things done, but still confused. Ender was always PUSHED by something, he never PUSHED first.
I know that the whole point of Ender's Game was that it was a game, and the realization of non-reality can set you free to do things you'd never do in real life, but does that mean that, from then on, Ender treated his entire life like a game? He let himself become shut off from those of us who wanted to know how he felt and what his thought proccess was?
I felt kind of like the monitor observers. After Ender's Game, I could still see what was going on with him, but I couldn't feel what he felt or think what he thought.
Maybe THAT is the peeve I am getting at.
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
I have a feeling that Ender in Exile is going to answer some of your questions. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I dunno. I thought the following three books were exceptional examples of deep POV penetration. The penetration is so deep, Card's use of first person in the narrative is hardly even noticed by the reader. (By this reader anyway.)
It's true that there are more viewpoints in the last three books than there are in Ender's game. But that's because the world's gotten bigger.
You might want to see if you can find Card's short story, 'Investment Councilor.' That deals with an Ender who's coming into adulthood.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I disagree with Card that Carly Smithson on American Idol is a poor singer and a calculating beeyotch. He seems to dislike her so hard it was like she took his lunch money and pantsed him in front of the girl he likes.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Ha!
Somehow, I transposed Kristi Lee Cook over Carly Smithson in that article, and it worked completely for me.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Maybe OSC has the two confused. Posted by Ish (Member # 11579) on :
Scott R-
I will deffinetely read that short story, AND I just found some info on this ender in exile book, and I'm looking forward to it!
Scifibum- I wish I watched TV, so I could truly understand this whole American Idol is actually still happening thing. I thought it was just a myth, I was sure American Idol had died or somthing. Oh well, we can dream.
~Ish
Posted by NFK (Member # 11581) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I dunno. I thought the following three books were exceptional examples of deep POV penetration. The penetration is so deep, Card's use of first person in the narrative is hardly even noticed by the reader. (By this reader anyway.)
It's true that there are more viewpoints in the last three books than there are in Ender's game. But that's because the world's gotten bigger.
You might want to see if you can find Card's short story, 'Investment Councilor.' That deals with an Ender who's coming into adulthood.
What do you mean "an" Ender? Are there more than one?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I really disagree with him about Bush. So Much. I don't think he listens to folks he doesn't agree with at all. For example, there really IS a recession. Millions of people are living it. They are struggling to find jobs and can't find anything.
Also, it is annoying for him to stereotype inner city people if that is what he is really doing. And there are various other things I disagree with him about.
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
quote:Originally posted by NFK:
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I dunno. I thought the following three books were exceptional examples of deep POV penetration. The penetration is so deep, Card's use of first person in the narrative is hardly even noticed by the reader. (By this reader anyway.)
It's true that there are more viewpoints in the last three books than there are in Ender's game. But that's because the world's gotten bigger.
You might want to see if you can find Card's short story, 'Investment Councilor.' That deals with an Ender who's coming into adulthood.
What do you mean "an" Ender? Are there more than one?
Figure of speech, yo.
Posted by NFK (Member # 11581) on :
quote:Originally posted by EmpSquared:
quote:Originally posted by NFK:
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I dunno. I thought the following three books were exceptional examples of deep POV penetration. The penetration is so deep, Card's use of first person in the narrative is hardly even noticed by the reader. (By this reader anyway.)
It's true that there are more viewpoints in the last three books than there are in Ender's game. But that's because the world's gotten bigger.
You might want to see if you can find Card's short story, 'Investment Councilor.' That deals with an Ender who's coming into adulthood.
What do you mean "an" Ender? Are there more than one?
Figure of speech, yo.
No, not really. Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
Another thing to keep in mind is that Ender is a supplement to the story of Speaker for the Dead rather than the other way around. I believe it was in the foreword of either Ender's Game or maybe Speaker itself that he says that he intended Speaker for the Dead to be his masterpiece and it was when he was trying to find a character to play the role when he happened to look back and see Ender Wiggin sitting there and thought "Sure, why not?"
The way I see it, Ender's Game was merely setting the stage for a bigger story. I think both stories are based around empathy, and relationships in general. Ender's Game showed us how Ender develops and maintains relationships. It showed us why it was necessary; why it was important.
At the end of Ender's Game, Ender's trust is broken. All of his relationships were USED to do something horrible. The person probably most gifted at forming bonds was devastatingly hurt by them. So much so, in fact, that it took him ~21 years of wandering through space before he finally decided to really try to know another human being.
So you see, while it was Ender's natural gift of empathy that brought the story together, it isn't really about HIM. It's about the people AROUND him. The people that were able to bring him out of his shell. The one's who were able to fix the wounds. We already knew about Ender. We needed to know about the place that could tame him; the place that could eventually become his home.
In the case of Children of the Mind, we also need to know about the people that would become his legacy. Namely, Peter, Miro, and Jane, and the people who are important to THEM.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
NFK:
Using the article 'an' in the way that I did highlights the original poster's contention of there indeed being multiple Enders. (An adult one and one who is a child)
There you go, sir.
quote:Also, it is annoying for him to stereotype inner city people if that is what he is really doing.
Hmm?
Posted by Timoty (Member # 10389) on :
Andrew isn't Ender, at least not in his actions. Ender was trying to get by, Andrew is trying to atone for annihilating a race.
When reading, it felt like Andrew was trying to measure every one of his actions, and all the consequences it would have. Ender would figure out how to win, then do it; all other consequences be damned.
Ender's life was, effectively, simple. Identify allies and enemies, defeat the enemies.
Andrew's simply trying to do good by the world, and eventually, the pequeninos.
Anyway, that's my 0.02c. They're aren't really the same character. They couldn't be; for all his genius, Ender was a child.
Posted by Fiver (Member # 11589) on :
This is a bit of a non-sequitor, but has anyone here read the book, by OSC, "Empire"? It's premise is excellent, that the USA is like Rome in it's republic stage, but it is poorly executed. In the book, Mr Scott Card describes the story repeatedly as impartial, saying that unity is more important than political ideology. That, in concept and theory, I agree with. But in actuality the book has a moderate-strong right spin. No institution that is even vaguely liberal is trustworthy, whether it is CNN, the (unnamed) university, or the city of New York. I do feel that OSC is a good writer, but why would he blatantly revile liberals? (the main character's "liberal" wife is a token character. She acts more like an independent). It ruins the book, especially its intelligent and eye-opening premise, for liberal readers such as myself.
Posted by Fiver (Member # 11589) on :
And I agree with Timoty. "Andrew isn't Ender, at least not in his actions. Ender was trying to get by, Andrew is trying to atone for annihilating a race" Exactly. Could it be that people's moral values complicate with age? Is that why Andrew is different from Ender?
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
Andrew was born when he learned it was no longer a game.
Posted by Clandestineguitarplayer (Member # 11571) on :
Did you guys know that Ish is a lady? I totally just found that out a second ago...
Posted by Ish (Member # 11579) on :
lol does it suddenly change my argumentation or something? Or am I the first female you've met on the boards? What is the deal here?
Posted by Clandestineguitarplayer (Member # 11571) on :
Its kind of like a woman amongst nerds I believe... Its like, wow! A LADY! HAHA! And no, it doesnt change a thing about what you say, everyone will still disagree with you, regardless of your gender! HAHA! Unless... I dont think there are many whit-male-supremists on this site? Not sure though... Its always a possibility I'm sure... But such a shame. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*rolls eyes* The site is 60/40, male/female. The split is even more even among the regulars, I'd guess.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
We are all single gentlemen!
(WRT Messrs Gilbert and Sullivan)
Posted by Clandestineguitarplayer (Member # 11571) on :
Thats good... No nazis here eh? But what is the percent of Mormon/Others here eh? Mr. I know everything...
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
IIRC, it's about 45-50% Mormon, from the age/sex/religion thread in 2005.
Posted by Ish (Member # 11579) on :
So... do I get double points for being Mormon and a Girl?
~Ish
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
I just want to say that I love the word "mythodically" Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish: Or am I the first female you've met on the boards?
Have I met myself? I don't think I've been properly introduced to me.
Nice to meet you, fellow female Ish!
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
I agree with you, Ish, on the books following EG.
It always seemed to me that, despite all the things he accomplishes in the later books, Ender pretty much spends the rest of his post-EG life running away from the unresolved internal conflicts that are most central to him in Ender's Game. He goes around the Universe solving other people's problems, but never really confronts his own.
Posted by Clandestineguitarplayer (Member # 11571) on :
Your a Mormon and a girl!?
. . . . Marry me? . . .
HAHAHA!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*checks* Yep. Still spring.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
(Ha! )
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Pretty sure it's only about 30-35% Mormon.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Pretty sure it's closer to 40%, at least according to the results from the age/sex/religion thread.
Posted by Clandestineguitarplayer (Member # 11571) on :
I see... Well, do I boost the numbers? I am a Mormon and I just brought like 6 people into this forum... All mormon. YAYA! I am a regular OSC missionary! Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
I think I've said it before, but... The dark side of what I like about Card (the richness of characters and their motivations, including villains) is that it makes it all the more baffling to me when he's willing to assume incredibly shallow motivations to those he disagrees with in his "World Watch" columns, sometimes on a massive scale.
I suspect that if someone wrote a story in one of his classes in which one character was willing to see their homeland destroyed out of nothing more than intellectual smugness, he'd criticize it.
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
Remember that OSC wrote the book on how to make an effective political blog.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
So you think he's playing Demosthenes? Where's his Locke?
Posted by Aris Katsaris (Member # 4596) on :
"Remember that OSC wrote the book on how to make an effective political blog. "
Pfft. Anyone can invent a genius blogger or genius general -- that hardly represents OSC's ability to convincingly blog the same way that it hardly represents his ability to lead an interplanetary war.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Aha! OSC is secretly Andrew Sullivan! I knew it!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: Pretty sure it's closer to 40%, at least according to the results from the age/sex/religion thread.
Wasn't that like two years ago? The percentages have definitely shifted in the past couple years.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
It sure seems to me that about as many of the new people are Mormons as not, although I don't really pay full attention to that. I think that a lot of people are "stealth" Mormons, too...they may not reveal that they are actually Mormon, for whatever reason.
Posted by LargeTuna (Member # 10512) on :
Theres a good amount of us jewish people on this forum. just shoutin out Posted by Clandestineguitarplayer (Member # 11571) on :
You're Jewish! Sweet! Do you have one of those sweet jewish accents?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
O_o
Do you mean a New York accent?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Do you sound like the Jewish mother on South Park? Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Not nearly as nasal.
Posted by GodSpoken (Member # 9358) on :
Disagreements, yeah.
Number one would have to be politics. I find I am almost directly opposite on most issues, even though I relate very strongly to many of his characters and story lines and find them nearly perfectly written to my taste (lol-even Ender's vile wife.)
I have noticed many real life political representations are present in some of my best loved books, though. There is autocracy and theocracy (rarely good things in real life), there are shades of aristocracy and militarism (we the elite and we the military know what is good for people, where they, the poor sots, know not..), and there is secrecy and suppression of information for the good of the people, etc.
I also read in a sort of elevation of irrationality - characters who are resistant to self-reflection (or learning) because of emotional damage seem to be put in an exempt and elevated category; as if one should tolerate hideous behaviors (not the actual person) in honor of the emotional handicap, and make others (support people) responsible for the actions of the "actors-out". It seems that if you have a good excuse and can rationalize your personalization of events and paranoia's, you get to wallow in your pain and throw it on everyone else and be honored for it. Very true to life, but kind of funny how the most balanced characters promote protecting the illness, not the person with the illness.
There also seems to be two themes regarding emotion at play, one for males and one for females. Males seem to come to grips and learn from errors and tragedy, where females more frequently remain victims for life and become resistent to sense. The characters who do not represent affliction seem evenly written (any characteristics can be applied to any gender), just seems to me to be regarding damage.
These are only passive observations, and completely opinions without merit or a fact base. Fiction is art for me, and OSC's is the top of my list for the wonderful conflicts and realisms (as above) he puts in. I fear we should not sip tea together at a political gathering, however.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Unless... I dont think there are many whit-male-supremists on this site? Not sure though... Its always a possibility I'm sure... But such a shame. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)