This is a question for Mr. Card, in particular, and his response would be most appreciated. However, I would also welcome the opinion of Hatrack members in general.
Mr. Card has written three articles (to my memory) about homework, linked below.
In the articles, Mr. Card lays down some expectations for homework, especially the 7 or so rules listed in Homework Part 2. I find these guidelines to be very much reasonable, but I do have a specific question.
I'm a teacher. Specifically, I teach band. One of the largest components of the band grade is the practice log that each student is required to complete and turn in every week. Students are to record which days they practiced, for how many minutes, and specifically what music/exercises they worked on. Rather than assign a total number of minutes practiced per week, like many directors do, I ask that each student practice 25 minutes a day for at least 5 days every week. Practicing less than 25 minutes (or fewer than five days) loses points.
(20 minutes instead of 25 on one day would lose 5%, practicing only 4 days loses 20%, and so on. Practicing less than 10 minutes is not worthwhile and earns nothing.)
Practicing MORE doesn't earn extra credit, or offset days in which a student doesn't practice.
My question is: do you think that this is a reasonable amount of required practice time for students in middle school?
My rationalizations: -25 minutes is about the right amount of time necessary to reinforce skills taught in class. It's a dose long enough that it requires focus, allows students to break their time up into fundamentals, music practice, then playing whatever they want at the end. -longer practice with fewer sessions is really quite similar to somebody who works out twice a week for long periods then sits around doing nothing the rest of the week; not as effective in terms of building and honing muscles. -students get to choose which 2 days they have "off" from practicing. Factors behind the decision could be anything from whim to really being unable to practice due to too many other things going on. -there are others, but I think this is good to go on for now. I can answer questions later on if you have any.
You see, I was just approached by my principal, who got an email from a concerned parent. The parent expressed that her children at my school always have over an hour of homework, sometimes up to 4 hours a night, not to mention the lengthy and involved projects over the weekend. The email was very reasonably worded, and the parent mentioned which assignments she recognized as valuable. She also mentioned the 25 minutes of nightly required practice for band, but didn't say either way whether or not she thought this reasonable.
Anyway, my principal mentioned to me that oft-quoted research stating that kids should have 10 minutes of homework per grade level, and that these 8th grade kids should do 80 minutes of homework a night. She said that it may be unreasonable to have 1/3 of their homework allotment come from band.
Personally, I think having kids practice less than 25 minutes is going to have a profound impact on how my ensembles improve (or don't, rather) on a day-to-day basis. I also think that it is the other teachers, perhaps, who are assigning MORE than 80 minutes of homework/day just by themselves.
Anyway, your input is appreciated.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I think requiring that much practice is appropriate for students taking private music lessons, but not for students in a group band class.
1. These kids are mostly just fulfilling a requirement and don't want to become good musicians. Exposure to music and what it would take to become "good" can happen during class time.
2. Most students probably lie on their logs, so anything you've concluded about the effect of this requirement is likely to be wrong.
Probably not exactly what you wanted, just my opinion.
(6 years of band, averaging probably 30 min or less of at-home practice per week. First chair trumpet player for several of those years.)
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
With the exception of kids compelled to be in band by their parents, most kids at my school made the choice to be in band over a wide selection of attractive elective options, including drama, art, shop, ceramics, computers, foreign language, etc.
Especially given that it's a volunteer group, I get the impression that the kids would prefer being good musicians to the alternative. Though very few will go on in music as a career, I'm aware.
While many kids lie (with complicity from their parents who signed the log), most do not do more than exaggerate how much they played. Having taught for a while without having a grade implcation for logged practice, I have experienced a dramatic difference with the alternative. Students actually get (gasp) better!! between rehearsals!!!
Besides, when a student performs a play test, I can usually tell whether they have practiced what they say they did...
Regarding your first chair status, some students manage to be very good players without significant practice. The rest of us envy people like you. Then again, being first chair could also be dependent upon the relative incompetence of the other players more than on any particular skill of the first chair player...
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
What is the goal?
To take a certain number of hours out of a child's life?
To get the whole band up to a level where they sound good together?
To get every child to a good level of proficiency?
To help every child make significant progress during the year?
To create a numerical system of grading that doesn't require you to adapt to the individual student so you can have the illusion of 'fairness'?
Some kids are motivated already to excel at their instrument. You don't have to make them keep a log of their practice, and you don't have to do all that math. They master the music and you can count on them. So such a system is pointless with them - indeed, it's offensive. It means that when they practice, it's not for love of the instrument or pride in their achievement, it's all about obeying you. Kids who MIGHT have practiced till they achieved mastery of their part will now practice only the minimum you set for them, and resent even that amount of time.
then there are the kids who are lazy but talented. It's enough for them to be best - they don't have to be good. That was me in band - as long as I was first chair and made the state band and didn't make ANY mistakes in performance, I was fine. And since I could do this with almost no practice at all (I could usually sight-read everything and in-class practice allowed me to nail it), I would have looked at your practice schedule and either dropped out of band (costing you either your first-chair tuba or your first chair french horn, depending on the year) or simply lied on my practice form - and you would never have known the difference.
Then you have the kids who have to fulfil assignments. It's about obedience. They're not happy if they don't fulfil all assignments. They are your saddest victims, because you are depriving them of the discretion to have weeks in which they don't practice at all because they have their part mastered, but you still make them mindlessly go over and over and over it twenty-five minutes a day. If they don't end up hating music, it's a miracle.
And then there are the kids who need that practice, and benefit from it. But they're still doing it out of obedience and fear of penalty, instead of out of a sense of wanting to PLAY THEIR INSTRUMENT WELL.
Then there are the kids who don't practice, don't learn their part, and lie about it on their practice log. What are you going to do then? Spy on them? Try to get their parents to sign off on their log? Then you're just getting them to lie to their parents about one more thing.
And then there are the kids who don't care, don't do it, admit they didn't do it, and take the lower grade. What did you achieve with them?
The whole problem here is that you're trying to FORCE them; if they comply, it feels like YOU won - not like they achieved something. Any success they have now belongs to you.
You are, in short, doing exactly what English teachers are doing when they force students to write little reports or do underlining or note-taking EVERY day and then turn in their log. They - and you - are taking all the joy and all the achievement out of it. You have unilaterally made it into a war.
WHY should I, as an 8th grader, first chair tuba in the state, practice one SECOND more than what I find necessary to meet all your reasonable performance expectations? If I can play the part on a cold sight-reading, am perfectly in pitch and rhythm, then what business is it of yours whether I practice thirty minutes or none?
And don't say that the extra practice will make me "even better." It would only make me think of you, my bandleader, as my enemy, and take all the joy out of my time with my instrument.
You can urge them to practice. You can point out that a section doesn't sound good, and then isolate which instruments are doing it wrong (or haven't found the pitch) and then make them practice it in class just often enough to make it clear that if they had practiced at ALL, they'd have made a lot more progress. Etc. HOMEWORK does not have to be assigned if you motivate them to desire excellence. (there's also that wonderful peer pressure of the collective groan of the whole band when somebody who hasn't practiced blows a key passage.)
Is it your music, or their music? It'll never be their music, if you take away the responsibility and the joy.
So, in short, i think there is NO rule of thumb that is fair or right for all students. And your system sounds particularly loathsome to me.
don't tell me that not everybody is as talented as I was. Of course not. But everybody had SOME talent or desire or they wouldn't be there. this isn't like math classes where everybody HAS to be there whether they have any talent or interest or not. Give them credit for having the desire. Let them work out for themselves just how good they want to be, and:
Base your grade on their PERFORMANCE, not on their OBEDIENCE.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
Wow! I can say that I did not expect such a prompt or lengthy response. Thank you for taking the time to converse with me.
I hope that this discussion can continue. I hope that I can reply to some of your statements in a convincing manner, with the goal of
a) perhaps convincing you that at least some of my reasoning is sound and based on years of my own experience as a teacher and on research of music educators with far more experience than my own, and
b) gaining constructive feedback that will help me to shape my educational model to allow me to reach more students.
Having read your writings for much of my life, I am well aware of your considerable skill with words and my efforts at debate will likely appear flimsy in comparison. Nevertheless, I hope that your answers perhaps help temper my reasoning and perhaps find suitable modifications for me to make.
You ask me first, “what is the goal?” of the practice logs, then listed several answers. I would like to respond to each in turn.
1.“To take a certain number of hours out of a child’s life?”
This is not the main intent, no. I’m not sure how to answer this one, other than that. Certainly practice does take time away from a child that might otherwise been spent on other pursuits, but in the case of band, it is a voluntary commitment. One might as well say that choosing to read a book takes hours from a child’s life, or that playing a sport and attending practice for sports takes hours from a child’s life.
2.“To get the whole band up to a level where they sound good together?”
This is one aspect of the requirement for practice, but the requirement for practice is only one component of the curriculum and grade. (More on this later.)
3.“To get every child to a good level of proficiency?”
Again, partially true. More accurately, what students are asked to play for their competencies (read: play tests) is designed to evaluate their level of proficiency. Presumably, the practice would help some students to achieve this proficiency, though, as we both know, students exist all along the spectrum. At one end, there are those who will achieve proficiency without practice, and on the other, those who will not achieve the proficiency even with the practice.
4.“To help every child make significant progress during the year?”
See above.
5.“To create a numerical system of grading that doesn’t require you to adapt to the individual student so you can have the illusion of ‘fairness’?”
Part of the reason for the grading of practice logs is indeed for a numerical system. It allows for a portion of the grade to come from something other than a relatively subjective rating of a student’s performance. Were the grade to be based entirely on student’s performance, I would have parents approaching me with the question, “Why is my son/daughter not getting an A?” and my only response would be “They weren’t good enough at the music.” Now, I would say that the illusion of fairness is not for my benefit. It is for those who rely on numbers to evaluate performance (an increasing blight in the world of education today, especially in our test-crazed country).
I would like to add a couple reasons of my own.
6. Most students who have never played an instrument before do not pick up the instrument and suddenly play well. Such a gift is incredible when it happens, but exceedingly rare. To play an instrument well requires the training of muscle groups, just as one might need to train to be a successful athlete. Only in music, the muscle groups are small and subtle; we exercise the numerous muscles in our mouth, tongue, and fingers. We build up connections in our brain relating to pitch, tone, and harmony. At the very beginning of a young musician’s career, these muscles have very little control and the pathways in the brain are not often developed (as a sad result of the loss of song and music as a part of our daily society – specifically that society now tends to consume music rather than partake in it). As with any athletic training, consistent, regular efforts are needed to develop skill.
7.Good practice habits are indeed beneficial to the continued growth of an individual’s skill. I hope to teach students what is expected in a practice session and how to overcome difficulties in the music when working on it at home. It’s a little like ‘eating your veggies.’ It’s good for the kid, they need to eat them to be healthy, and they *want* to be healthy, but they’d rather eat something else. The analogy is weak, I know, but it’s the best I could come up with for now. I will talk more about why the grade is used as the means of getting kids to practice.
Now allow me to cover the different types of students you mentioned. Because, as a matter of fact, I work VERY hard to differentiate my instruction for the wide variety of students I have in my classes.
quote: Some kids are motivated already to excel at their instrument. You don't have to make them keep a log of their practice, and you don't have to do all that math. They master the music and you can count on them. So such a system is pointless with them - indeed, it's offensive. It means that when they practice, it's not for love of the instrument or pride in their achievement, it's all about obeying you. Kids who MIGHT have practiced till they achieved mastery of their part will now practice only the minimum you set for them, and resent even that amount of time.
I love these kids. They practice already, then they write it down on the log, because I really don’t make them write all that much. In fact, these motivated kids are proud of the amount that the practice, are proud of how much they have improved, and want me to know that they have practiced. If a student finds it offensive, it’s no more or less offensive to them than the rest of the crud they have to put up with in public school. Now, I know that this last statement in particular is NOT a ringing endorsement for my own system.
As for practicing only the minimum amount I set for them? No. I have many, MANY kids who take the musical challenges I give them and work their rear ends off, and then some to master this music. Take, for example, this second-year bassoon player who proudly showed off his somewhat torn up thumb that got a little mangled from practicing for about 12 hours over the weekend. I was aghast! That was too much! And he’s already first chair, it’s not like he needed to practice that much to beat everyone else! He practiced for that long because he loves to play his bassoon. He loves to make music. He is always asking for more solo bassoon music to play (not stuff we perform in concerts, just stuff for fun), and seeking these new challenges. He is also not alone. Judging by the number of kids who come in before school to ‘jam’ with each other and those that stay after and hang out in the band room to talk about and listen to music, many kids do indeed love to be there and pursue music for their own edification, pride, and sense of achievement, not out of obedience. Then again, it’s perfectly possible that I’m deluding myself.
quote: then there are the kids who are lazy but talented. It's enough for them to be best - they don't have to be good. That was me in band - as long as I was first chair and made the state band and didn't make ANY mistakes in performance, I was fine. And since I could do this with almost no practice at all (I could usually sight-read everything and in-class practice allowed me to nail it), I would have looked at your practice schedule and either dropped out of band (costing you either your first-chair tuba or your first chair french horn, depending on the year) or simply lied on my practice form - and you would never have known the difference.
I’m sure there are those that exaggerate or lie on the form, and there is indeed no way for me to know for sure, as long as those kids continue to master what I give for them to play. But your list of items that made you “fine” – first chair, state band, no mistakes in performance – are perhaps achieved differently in the ensembles I teach. First chair is based on a student’s performance in a play test. This means that a first chair student sometimes is one who doesn’t practice up to spec. This is rare in my ensembles.
And I should let you know, too, that my play tests are “blind”. The students go into a practice room during class and record their test into a digital recorder. The only identifier is a number, spoken by the test proctor, and I don’t get the list of who was what number until AFTER chairs and grades are assigned.
quote: Then you have the kids who have to fulfil assignments. It's about obedience. They're not happy if they don't fulfil all assignments. They are your saddest victims, because you are depriving them of the discretion to have weeks in which they don't practice at all because they have their part mastered, but you still make them mindlessly go over and over and over it twenty-five minutes a day. If they don't end up hating music, it's a miracle.
Well, herein we find a common misapprehension. I do not ask my students to practice 25 minutes day after day the SAME music. That, indeed, would very much resemble the sick and twisted math teachers who made students drill endlessly on math problems that they already understand! On the contrary, students are given music that we perform for a concert, and if they have that satisfactorily mastered, they don’t even have to bring it home! They instead are encouraged to find music that THEY want to play. Music from musicals, movies, TV shows, etc. seem to be rather popular. Other students pursue ‘serious classical or Baroque literature like Mozart and Bach, respectively. I also attempt to keep the students well outfit with musical exercises that are far above the heads of the average student, letting them know that this is on the horizon. If they have mastered our performance music, there is always something else to work on.
All that being said, I recognize your argument that I am withholding from these students the discretion to have weeks in which they choose to not play. However, would you allow a child who didn’t wish to get physical activity the discretion to sit around doing nothing? Or allow a child to not eat a balanced, healthy diet? I’m not sure that students at this age necessarily have the ability to make these discretionary choices on their own. Some do, in which case they may choose not to practice and care little for the grade. Others need some kind of encouragement to practice. (I will address further on alternatives to grade-based coercion. There, in fact, is where I most seek the input from others!!)
quote: And then there are the kids who need that practice, and benefit from it. But they're still doing it out of obedience and fear of penalty, instead of out of a sense of wanting to PLAY THEIR INSTRUMENT WELL.
This statement is not necessarily true, and in fact, I think rarely applies. Though perhaps it is true in more cases than I’d like to admit. Nevertheless, while fear and penalty may play some role in the practice log, I think that fear and penalty would play an even LARGER role if their grade relied on their performance.
quote: And then there are the kids who don't care, don't do it, admit they didn't do it, and take the lower grade. What did you achieve with them?
These kids obviously don’t wish to participate in band. I would prefer (as would they) that they find an elective course that is better suited to their interests. Then they are no longer miserable, and perhaps will find an activity that engages them in learning.
quote: The whole problem here is that you're trying to FORCE them
Yes. I am trying to force them to practice their instrument. I am willing to concede that there are better ways out there to get them to practice, but practice (to some degree or another) they must! The grade based coercion is only one method by which practice is encouraged. More often, I use the very methods you yourself have already advocated, but find them insufficient to reach the widest base of students.
quote: You are, in short, doing exactly what English teachers are doing when they force students to write little reports or do underlining or note-taking EVERY day and then turn in their log. They - and you - are taking all the joy and all the achievement out of it.
I think it overstatement to say that I take all the joy out of music by making them turn in practice logs. I happen to see plenty of smiling faces and happy attitudes on a daily basis. I’m convinced that they have this sense of accomplishment at least partially due to the benefits of practice. Some would have seen this benefit without my requirement, but at least some have been ‘converted’ so-to-speak to see the value of regular practice and the impact it has on their playing.
quote: WHY should I, as an 8th grader, first chair tuba in the state, practice one SECOND more than what I find necessary to meet all your reasonable performance expectations? If I can play the part on a cold sight-reading, am perfectly in pitch and rhythm, then what business is it of yours whether I practice thirty minutes or none?
It is none of my business and I have little to respond to in this statement. It is for this kind of student that an alternative grading method is needed, however rare it is that students are both this musically talented and uninterested in practicing the amount I ask for. Far more often, the ones who are this talented hunger for practice anyway, and fill out the log as just one more thing on their checklist.
quote: And don't say that the extra practice will make me "even better." It would only make me think of you, my bandleader, as my enemy, and take all the joy out of my time with my instrument.
Given my earlier explanation of offering higher level music up to those star students as a further challenge, is it conceivable that many of these star students would relish the challenge and continue to practice the time I request? I honestly wouldn’t require the 25 minutes if I didn’t continue to provide meaningful challenges to the level of the individual student! Usually, when a student regards me as their enemy, it is because I do not let them get away with disrupting rehearsal and turning the band room into their play ground!
quote: You can urge them to practice. You can point out that a section doesn't sound good, and then isolate which instruments are doing it wrong (or haven't found the pitch) and then make them practice it in class just often enough to make it clear that if they had practiced at ALL, they'd have made a lot more progress. Etc. HOMEWORK does not have to be assigned if you motivate them to desire excellence. (there's also that wonderful peer pressure of the collective groan of the whole band when somebody who hasn't practiced blows a key passage.)
I do indeed point out those sections that don’t sound good -- and trust me, in middle school, there are lots of them! I do isolate these parts and rehearse them in class. But instead of just fixing it in class, I also ask students to observe what I had the students do to fix problems. Slow it down. Isolate that measure or those notes. Play it backwards. Sing it. Buzz it on the mouthpiece. And so on. I want the students to know how to fix problems in their own music, and I use the class to teach them how to troubleshoot. This means that, when a student is practicing their own solo literature (or a troublesome phrase in our concert music) at home during their practice time, when they run into a problem, they have an arsenal of skills available about how to deal with it. To me, this is like the old adage “give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach him to fish, he eats for life.” If I spend class troubleshooting the sections of music for them, they learn to perform a piece at a concert. If I teach them how to practice and troubleshoot, then encourage them (yes, forcibly, through grade coercion) to play at home music other than that which is studied in class, they will be able to eventually play anything they wish to.
This empowerment, ideally, makes the music more theirs than it ever would be if they only ever played their instrument during class. Having taught for several years without using practice logs, I can say emphatically that encouraging students to practice and relying on peer pressure and a desire for excellence works for about the top 15% of students. I reach far fewer students in this one-dimensional approach than I do by combining it with grade-based incentives.
Now, finally, we come to the matter of grade-based coercion.
I hate grades. I wish I didn’t have to give them. I wish that our educational system didn’t suck the desire for knowledge and growth out of students by the time they are in the 6th grade. Too often, the focus becomes on earning the grade, not on mastering the material and expanding one’s horizons and experiences. If I could get away with it, I would just teach the music!
Unfortunately, I’m operating inside of a system that expects me to assign grades, and have a clearly defined, dumb-as-a-thumb means of granting that grade.
So. How do I grade?
20% (roughly) comes from the practice logs 30% comes from passing playing competencies (here is where I grade based on their performance, NOT their obedience) 10% comes from the completion of in-class assignments and/or tests related to music theory, history, etc. 20% or so comes from participation and citizenship. 20% comes from concert attendance. I wish this part weren’t necessary, but the sad fact is that there are some parents out there so uninterested in their child’s musical pursuits that they wouldn’t so much as drive them to the concert, drop them off, and pick them up afterwards if it weren’t for the fact that the kid’s grade would suffer. My wife, also a band director, actually had a parent who STILL didn’t care.
Also, I offer multitudes of opportunities for extra credit. Small amounts can be earned for helping out around the band room. Larger amounts can be earned for writing reviews of live musical performances (thereby encouraging students to attend local music, think critically, and use music-related vocabulary when doing so). Still larger amounts can be earned for participating in music outside of school, either through private lessons, other youth ensembles, or by playing at church, etc.
Thus it is perfectly possible for a student to NEVER practice, NEVER turn in a log, and, assuming all other work, competencies, performances, and attitude were sufficient get an “A” with a little extra credit work. Most students who don’t practice, though, usually don’t pass the competencies…
I hope that my explanation makes my system at least a little more palatable. Either way, I look forward to hearing your thoughts and stretching my thinking on the subject a little more. Of particular use would be a variety of methods I might consider for use in encouraging (rather than coercing) practice.
Thank you again for reading and responding to my post. Your opinion matters to me, Mr. Card, whether or not we ultimately agree.
Honestly, I have tried to use your Homework editorials as guidelines in the development of my curriculum. I don't require practice over vacations or holidays; if a child is sick or absent due to family reasons they record THAT on their log instead of practice. My playtests don't happen on Mondays or after vacations. The material I assign for practice is relevant to each student since they ought to be working at their pace (but meeting the competencies set forth in play tests, at a minimum), practicing doesn't involve parents, and excessive repetition is kept to a minimum, since a child will move on to what they WANT to play, rather than playing the same stuff ad nauseum.
Perhaps I have missed a large point of what you were trying to say. In which case, again, your input is desired and welcome.
Yours,
B.C.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It sounds to me, honestly, like you didn't particularly need OSC's input on this, since you knew he'd disagree with your approach and also had a set of reasons lined up to argue against his disagreement.
That said, I -- as a former first cello and All-State orchestra and choir member, back in the day, and a decent pianist nowadays -- think he's got the right of it.
25 minutes a day is excessive, yes. But it's also unnecessary. Your attempt to come up with something "objective" to avoid having to tell parents the truth is only going to force their children into either dishonesty or resentment of the material.
Interestingly, I think you acknowledge this by making the practice material relatively unimportant to the final grade. I would observe that if you're going to do this, you're also sending this implicit message to the students: this is a lot of work for very little reward. Smart students will, quite simply, realize that filling out the log is not in their best interest.
(BTW: 20% comes from "citizenship?" What does that mean?)
Posted by All4Nothing (Member # 11601) on :
Not that I have a whole lot of knowledge in the subject of playing music, but I have a suggestion I think may come in handy.
Have you ever thought of doing a reward system based more on significant improvement or maintaining a high level of proficiency such as music related/non-related field trips every semester or after school pizza party/jam sessions?
I think the highly skilled would just maintain it and get these rewards. Giving the less skilled but hard working students more time to learn from the highly skilled (especially in the pizza party/jam session scenerio) while also giving the uninterested another reason to push themselves to higher levels.
It could just be I'm not thinking this out enough but I think it would achieve both the goals you've set for yourself, the goals you've set for your students, and the goals they've set for themselves. With less pressure from you, or their parents.
Hope that's as helpful as it's sounding to me Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card:
Base your grade on their PERFORMANCE, not on their OBEDIENCE.
I totally agree with this.
If they know their grade is based on performance, then if they want a good grade, they will practice in their own way to get to the level to get that grade.
I was in band all through secondary school and some in college. I never had required "practice" times set by band instructors. Now my family did have set practice times for me when I was pre-8th grade level. To develop discipline, I believe.
But I was one who normally, on the days I did practice, would have done it for more than 30 minutes. But I was sporadic -- two hours one night, then maybe not again for three days. But I performed well and was first chair.
I think if I had the chart (just imagining, with my personality) I would have done only exactly what was required, even fudged a little. Instead, on my own, I probably practiced more over the course of time without having been told to keep track of it.
Posted by Cyn (Member # 11799) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
(BTW: 20% comes from "citizenship?" What does that mean?)
From what I remember "citizenship" was a grade based on behavior in class.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
BC, you sound like a very good band teacher/director (I don't know the proper title, so I'm not trying to slight you or anything).
But, if 8th grade JT were in your class, he would practice however much he needed to to master the performance pieces and lie on the logs.
On one hand, I see where you're coming from, because I think 25 minutes a day is a reasonable time to practice an instrument. My friends who took piano outside of school (or violin, cello, or whatever) all had about that much practice time a day or more.
But I think 25 minutes a day on homework for any one subject is excessive.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
Thanks for your comments everyone.
Tom: I didn't know what OSC would say, and his response came as a surprise to me, both in content and vociferousness (is that word?). That I had responses to his objections formulated in my mind speaks more, perhaps, to the fact that I have given thought to my assessment system. Whether that thought is misguided or not is up for judgement.
Citizenship/Participation/Preparedness: Is the student coming to rehearsal will everything they need (instrument, reed, valve oil, pencil, good attitude, focus)? The default grade is 100%, and students only lose points when it becomes clear that they weren't prepared (by neglecting to bring the necessary materials), or were being a particular nuisance in rehearsal.
JT: your kind words are appreciated, and your input is valuable. Thank you. (OSC's response almost has me believing that I'm a terrible human being and deserving of the death penalty! But I do want this feedback as it will help to shape and strengthen my curricular strategies.)
You say that 25 minutes of practice seems reasonable, but that it's too much for homework in one given subject. I tend to agree. I feel justified in the increased time commitment for band as a subject since we exist in a state of being both a part of the school curriculum and also extra-curricular. I've heard this described as Co-Curricular in the distant past.
When a student signs up for any other extra-curricular activity, time is expected of them, but since this extra-curricular activity is ALSO a curricular class, a grade is attached to one's participation therein.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:20% comes from concert attendance. I wish this part weren’t necessary, but the sad fact is that there are some parents out there so uninterested in their child’s musical pursuits that they wouldn’t so much as drive them to the concert, drop them off, and pick them up afterwards if it weren’t for the fact that the kid’s grade would suffer. My wife, also a band director, actually had a parent who STILL didn’t care.
Or, you know, they have a million other priorities and band concerts aren't very high on the list for one reason or another. Maybe they have to work in the evenings and taking band wasn't their idea. Stuff like that.
Honestly, BandoCommando, I'm completely unconvinced that it's somehow necessary for kids to practice that much in order for the class to be worthwhile. I think at middle school age, the kids can get plenty of musical education during class time only, and those who want to become good at their instrument can practice as much as they want to in order to help them reach their goals.
I think you'd give these kids their money's worth by rehearsing and drilling during class time only. They'd get to know how to read music, the basic mechanics of their instruments, and become informed enough to decide whether they have real interest in becoming proficient. They'd learn how the band has to work together and follow direction. The ONLY thing I can figure out that they'd lack from 2+ hours of at home practice a week is extra proficiency (for some), and I don't see that as a necessary outcome of the class. It's nice to have and a natural result for the kids who want it, but I don't think it justifies the time requirement.
Would a class full of kids who learned all about music and bands and how to play their instruments, but didn't get very good at playing, be an unacceptable result? It might rule out concerts, I guess: which simplifies your grading algorithm. Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
In response to your latest post, BC, how about the idea of a curricular band class and those kids have the option for signing up for extracurricular activity which involves one extra after-school rehearsal a week, the understanding that extra practice is expected, and those are the kids who end up in concerts? In high school I'd lean more to one "co-curricular" group, but in middle school I think most kids should have the option to keep it mostly within class time.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
25 minutes of homework is excessive? Then what is 4 hours for one class?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by OSC then there are the kids who are lazy but talented. It's enough for them to be best - they don't have to be good. That was me in band - as long as I was first chair and made the state band and didn't make ANY mistakes in performance, I was fine. And since I could do this with almost no practice at all (I could usually sight-read everything and in-class practice allowed me to nail it), I would have looked at your practice schedule and either dropped out of band (costing you either your first-chair tuba or your first chair french horn, depending on the year) or simply lied on my practice form - and you would never have known the difference.
This was pretty much me in school. I rarely ever practices at home because the practice in class was always good enough to make me proficient. When I was in high school I was beat out by a kid who was clearly naturally better than me for first chair tenor sax. It didn't bother me. His dad was a jazz musician, his uncle was my junior high band teacher, and he was just good in a way that I knew I wasn't, so I was content with second chair. I loved band, but personal proficiency and being a good solo artist never really mattered much because being a part of the GROUP was the most fun. To this day I think I miss band more than any other single thing in school.
I agree with pretty much every other single thing you said too, and I think you can apply it to a lot of other subjects other than band.
What'd you play? For some reason I always thought you were a choir geek, not a band geek. Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
I would actually offer a more confusing grading scale. I would let the kids pick either practice logs with a small amount of performance OR just performance. That way the kids that work hard but suck can still do good and the naturally skilled kids are also happy.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
" would actually offer a more confusing grading scale. I would let the kids pick either practice logs with a small amount of performance OR just performance. That way the kids that work hard but suck can still do good and the naturally skilled kids are also happy."
That sounds good to me...not to pressure Bando or anything. I always felt bad for the kids who naturally weren't so great at their instruments, but tried hard. I was automatically good.
Posted by All4Nothing (Member # 11601) on :
I'm starting to feel as if I don't even exist in this forum and I might as well just read instead of contribute.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I'm utterly shocked that the gist of OSC's reply to Bando was "I am, and always was, Awesome."
Actually, I was just being facetious back there, but I really was a little surprised at the nakedness of the boast.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by All4Nothing: I'm starting to feel as if I don't even exist in this forum and I might as well just read instead of contribute.
1. Contribute a few more than 24 posts and tell me if you are always ignored.
2. Don't whine if people seem to be ignoring you- a lot of people read and don't respond.
Posted by TheBlueShadow (Member # 9718) on :
From experience I know that all I would have done is lie on the practice logs. Not fudge them, just completely lie and have my mother sign off on them with the full knowledge that I didn't practice this much if at all.
There are three types of successful band students in middle school. Those who already know how to play from private lessons and are ahead, those with natural skill, and those who have to practice to be on this higher level. The first group will always be better until their peers catch up to where they are, the second group won't need to practice that much to maintain basic skills, and the third group will practice whether or not it's an assignment because they want to be better and the competition fuels their motivation.
Then there are kids that just seem to have no talent and work very hard for little result. They'll practice a lot whether or not you make them. Finally, there are those who don't care and won't practice no matter what. In many cases these are the kids being forced into band by someone and don't want to be there.
If you want to make outside of class practice a grade and if you consider your class a co-curricular that can be compared to after school activities like sports then you should make it an extra-curricular by having after school rehearsals. Once a week, twice a week, or everyday before or after school, full rehearsals or sectionals.
The unfortunate part of that is the time commitment it takes for you.
I loved music and I still love playing, but I never planned to be a successful musician. It was something I did to have fun on my own and with friends. There are a lot of ways to hide from band homework. You can't lie about not having math homework but you can naturally have little skill on a musical instrument.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by T:man: 25 minutes of homework is excessive? Then what is 4 hours for one class?
Evidence of procrastination?
Posted by swbarnes2 (Member # 10225) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I'm utterly shocked that the gist of OSC's reply to Bando was "I am, and always was, Awesome."
Actually, I was just being facetious back there, but I really was a little surprised at the nakedness of the boast.
Yes, it looks like Bando has lost the vote of the musically elite. Or at least certain kinds of musical elites. Because lots of musicians in ensembles would appreciate that their ensemble sounds better when everyone is strongly encouraged to regularly practice.
Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
I loved band. I wasn't very good . . . I never made it past sixth chair (out of 10). But I worked hard at it. And was very compliant. If my teacher had required a 25 minute practice five days out of seven, I would have done it. But I did it close to that anyway without the requirement. The difference is, if I needed to take a week off, I did, without any worries or repercussions. If I wanted to practice for an hour one day and none for the next two or three, I did it. Without those worries. But with the required schedule, there would have been worries and I probably would have dropped out before ever making it to high school band. And that would have been a terrible loss for me. So requiring it as you do with all of the inherent math involved on your part, I think is a mistake.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by swbarnes2:
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I'm utterly shocked that the gist of OSC's reply to Bando was "I am, and always was, Awesome."
Actually, I was just being facetious back there, but I really was a little surprised at the nakedness of the boast.
Yes, it looks like Bando has lost the vote of the musically elite. Or at least certain kinds of musical elites. Because lots of musicians in ensembles would appreciate that their ensemble sounds better when everyone is strongly encouraged to regularly practice.
Yeah, that's the weird thing. OSC has called me a musical elitist, which I guess I kind of am, except for the part where I want everyone to be more into music, and know more than me.
But it's weird for OSC to come on and essentially say: "if you're as good as me, the rules don't apply, and in fact they hurt more than they help." What kind of perspective can he offer if he himself has no sense of what that 25 minutes might do for someone that isn't him?
I can only say that I know the difference between when I've practiced and when I haven't, and that practicing at an instrument is a key area of intellectual development for musicians of all kinds. I'm just kind of put in a funk by what basically amounts to a defeatist kind of pessimism, ie: "there's no way mandatory practice will ever work for any reason, essentially because education is too corrupt and you are probably too stupid to find ways to motivate your students within the goals you have set for them, so don't try."
That's what I felt when I read OSC's thoughts on this, and a little part of me died. I sometimes have the mental image of one of my music teachers standing in a hallway with an armful of lesson materials and an earnest expression on his/her face, and someone spitting in it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Because lots of musicians in ensembles would appreciate that their ensemble sounds better when everyone is strongly encouraged to regularly practice.
I dispute that requiring something of someone is equivalent to "strongly encouraging" it. In fact, numerous studies show that it's the opposite: if you require someone to do something they enjoy, they will stop enjoying it and will actually do less of it.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I agree actually. The work shouldn't be "required" per se, but it should be encouraged through clearly expressed goals. Half of my instrumental training in college was my teacher going through ways that I could teach myself, when at home, and how I should spend my time while playing. By setting up the goals, he showed me how much I needed to work to meet them. Is it going to work out perfectly? No, but not everything is what we do for ourselves, unfortunately- sometimes we need to be pushed. It's just knowing what kind of a push, and how hard, that a teacher needs to work hard at.
Posted by All4Nothing (Member # 11601) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by All4Nothing: I'm starting to feel as if I don't even exist in this forum and I might as well just read instead of contribute.
1. Contribute a few more than 24 posts and tell me if you are always ignored.
2. Don't whine if people seem to be ignoring you- a lot of people read and don't respond.
Aha! My shameless bid for attention by whining has worked! I am much more content now! I will now contribute exactly 3 more posts, therefore using the proper tactic to get noticed. LoL...I'm just messing around. I was all bummed out last night, and this post really should've stayed in my head. Thanks for the reality check Orincoro. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I'm quite sure I would have done better in Jr. High band if we'd been required to keep practice logs. I'm a terrible procrastinator, but wasn't skilled enough to do well without daily practice. I'd put it off and tell myself I'd practice more the next day to make up for it, but it never worked out that way.
Having to turn in a practice log would likely have been the extra motivation I needed to actually practice. And there is no way I would have ever lied on a log. Ever. So Bando's method would have worked well for me.
Posted by All4Nothing (Member # 11601) on :
I couldn't stand music class as I was growing up, but I loved to write song lyrics. These days, I'm trying to learn guitar on my own and wish I had a push from a music teacher.
I guess it really depends on the child. I'm an adult now so my ambitions are devided by how much time I have between work and play. Unfortunately as a child I didn't realize that I had so much excess time in comparison to adult life. So I really don't see being pushed along by teachers as such a bad thing these days. Of course, once again it'd completely depend on whether the child in question was planning on pursuing music as a career or just using it as an easy elective.
Cause in my opinion school should really be preparing children to understand and be ready to obtain their future goals. It's a really hard balance, and I don't think the one size fits all approach works as well as anyone would like.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I'm utterly shocked that the gist of OSC's reply to Bando was "I am, and always was, Awesome."
Actually, I was just being facetious back there, but I really was a little surprised at the nakedness of the boast.
I didn't get that at all out of the post.
Posted by Catseye1979 (Member # 5560) on :
I never took Band. Most likely in my case I would've picked my grade the first day of class after seeing what was required for what grade, as I did in all my classes. Band, I most likely would have decided to get a B and only if my grade dropped below that would I bother with the logs.
For me Homework was nothing more the makeup work for when my grade dropped lower then I planned it to be.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
I agree with JT and others--I think you sound like a good teacher, and a thoughtful one. It can be so hard to hear critiques and criticism of our grading practices, and it can be even harder to change what we do to improve our practice. After all, every single moment most teachers I know are trying to do the best we can for our students, and if we have to change something huge, then it feels like we were doing a bad job before. Don't let that keep you from changing--and I commend you for being willing to rethink your policies.
I have a few thoughts for you.
Twenty percent for homework, no matter how worthwhile, is very, very high. Too high.
A grade should measure the extent to which a student masters the standard being taught. What standard are the practice logs measuring? It seems to me that if a student practices, he or she would perform better on the anonymous tests you described. But if the standard is the test (that is, in order to meet the minimum bassoon requirement a student should be able to play a certain passage with no errors, or whatever), and a student can meet that standard without practicing, then, well, the student met the standard and should get an A (or whatever symbol means mastery in the class).
In the other case--a student who practices or at least turns in the log and still can't play the passage--is it right for that student to get a grade that indicates mastery when the standard hasn't been mastered, just because he worked hard?
Now, in the case of band (most subjects, actually, but particularly skill-based subjects as opposed to content-based), I think it's perfectly appropriate to have the grade based on individual progress as well as on mastery of objective standards. Even in this case, though, the practice logs don't indicate anything about individual progress. The proof is in the improved performance, not the amount of time spent. (Although the amount of time spent will probably result in improvement, depending on the quality of the practice.)
The essential question is this: What are the standards of your course, and how can you determine whether or not a student has met them? Completing homework—practicing—might help the student to meet the standard, but does not indicate that he or she has. Homework should therefore have very little effect on the actual grade. The grade should indicate the extent to which the student met the standard, and not the extent to which the student (for example) followed directions.
OK, here's a possibly constructive suggestion.
Your reasons for wanting students to practice are more than reasonable. The question is, how do you get middle school students to do something that is rewarding in the long term when they are surrounded by things that are rewarding in the short term?
I teach English, and my primary homework assignment is for students to read a certain amount every night. (And write, too, but let's focus on reading.) I don't require them to keep any kind of time log, and I’m happy to say that I don’t require the note-taking, etc. that OSC mentions above. So how do I know they're reading? Well, on one level, I don't. I don't know if they read on a particular day or not, and to be truthful I don't care. I’d prefer for them to read some every day, but really I want them to read. The key has been to motivate them to read, rather than to measure if they read. A few things help with this:
1. Encouraging them to read any book they choose. 2. Helping them to find books they like. 3. Having them discuss books with peers. 4. Helping them to set individual goals for what they want to do with their reading.
(I notice that your practice suggestions already do much of the band-equivalent, by the way.)
Individual goals help tremendously in motivating my students to practice. What I do is help them set a baseline—they record the books they read in the first quarter, noting title, genre, and number of pages—then they decide how much they want to read for second quarter. I help them to set a goal that is both challenging and something they can achieve. Although I still assign daily reading, it’s not really necessary. They have a meaningful goal to work toward, and by and large they do the work required to get there.
Perhaps getting students involved in determining a long-term goal that they find meaningful will help in getting them to put in the time to practice. (Is there a piece that is fun to play, yet very challenging for your band? Is there a competition coming up? Is there a chance of someone whose opinion they really respect coming to a concert? Do they ever perform for their peers?)
Another suggestion—if you do want to have some sort of time chart, DON’T have the parents sign it. Have the kids sign it. The parents aren’t in your class—who cares if they’re honest or not? Make the kids responsible to you, talk to them about integrity, let them know that their honesty is important to you. I used to have parents initial that their kids had read so many pages, books, etc., and lying from kids was rampant. When I switched to asking kids to initial that they’d read the books, all of a sudden very very very very few kids lied to me. I can’t think of a single example in the last 6 years, actually.
And let me wind up by saying this: I used to require employ various less-successful ways of measuring if kids read. The above 4 techniques have been the most successful thus far BY far. And my grading is far from perfect—I’m right now in the middle of considering if I need to count quizzes less. It’ll require changing my whole system—in the middle of the year! Best of luck to you. You’re the best kind of teacher—one who is willing to be thoughtful about his practice, and change when change is called for.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Liz B: Twenty percent for homework, no matter how worthwhile, is very, very high. Too high.
I strongly disagree, especially up to the junior high level, and possibly higher.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
Here's why it's too high.
Let me specify first that by homework I mean the practice a student does outside of the classroom in order to learn something, not a major assignment that happens to be done at home (paper, project, etc.). In the first case, it's a formative assessment--something student does in order to help him or her to learn, and something the teacher uses to figure out where a student is in order to determine what further teaching might be needed. (I'm sure many people reading this thread already know what a formative assessment is, but I wanted to explain just in case.) A formative assignment should be the work the student is doing to learn, not the work he or she is doing to demonstrate learning. As such (and if designed well), it should give the teacher lots of information about his or her teaching and what should be done next--but it doesn't say much about whether or not the student has mastered the standard. That's why it shouldn't be worth much. The grade is not a reward for doing work, or a penalty for not doing work. It's a measurement of the degree to which the student mastered the objectives being taught.
Let me be clear--I think kids who demonstrate mastery of the standards of a course without doing one lick of homework should get As. Because that's what an A means.
I think kids who do not demonstrate adequate mastery/ understanding of the standards, even if they completed every assignment to the best of their ability, should not pass. (I also think that a situation like that often indicates a mismatch between the curriculum and a student's developmental needs--or else terrible instruction--but that's another discussion altogether.)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Liz B: Let me be clear--I think kids who demonstrate mastery of the standards of a course without doing one lick of homework should get As. Because that's what an A means.
I would agree if we were talking about college-level courses. Not high school, and DEFINITELY not junior high or younger. Part of school is mastery of material, but in those age groups it is definitely not all of it.
I say this both as a teacher who has given students who were bright but unwilling to work B's, and as the mother of a daughter who had much the same thing happen last year (and her teacher was surprised that rather than being angry, I thought it was exactly right).
Posted by Quara (Member # 11803) on :
I get so board over technicalities. There are so many of them, and all they do is complicate an issue. I am one that loves music. I always have, and I always will, regardless of the disappointing teachers I may learn from or confusing circumstances that complicate my willingness to learn. I chose that I liked music, and nothing anyone can do or say will change my opinion or my passion.
So, can't we just forget about the technicalities and just enjoy our classes? I have never been a teacher, but I believe that it is possible for both teacher and student to walk away from class excited of what they learned.
Is it at all possible just to have fun?
Of course, you may say that school isn't meant to be fun. School is work, right? Work can never be fun. Or, can it?
What I feel is that we must understand is that regardless of our age, rank, sex, or skin, we are all granted unalienable rights under God (according to the foundation of the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence: Preamble-Thanks ). Because of this, we are all equal on the same playing field: we are all equal in his sight (we all have different circumstances, but all of us can pray). Therefore, why should the Professor esteem himself greater than his Pupil? Sure, The Professor has a lot more knowledge than the Student, but God has a lot more knowledge than either the Professor or the Student, and the Professor and Student will always be able to learn from God. Thus, should we not share our knowledge, as a friend to a friend?
There are far too many circumstances to list the possible 'right' way, so if I didn't, forgive me. If I didn't write the 'right' thing, forgive me. I tried. And I'm sure that somebody will argue with my ideas. And I except your argument. I am in the search for truth. Are you?
So, what am I getting at? Sometimes, even I don't know. I think what I mean is that learning doesn't need to be complicated. It can be simple. Hey, and it can even be fun!
And boy, does that sound like Utopian speech. It may sound like fantasy, but it is possible. If you are the teacher, all you have to do is treat your student like you would your own child. If you are the student...I'm not so sure, but I believe that there is a solution, I just don't know it yet. What ever you do, don't try to 'solve' the problem. It just makes it worse.
Oh, yes. And thank you OSC for the plainness of your speech (and your books, and your writings and your example). It gives me hope that I'm not just a raving lunatic (or, at least not the only one). Ha! Maybe I am!, but it is awful fun! (at least my friends haven't said otherwise...)
Quara
[ November 05, 2008, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Quara ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I was required to practice an average of 30 minutes a day, or 3.5 hours a week.
I always did it, even if it meant doing 3 hours of practice on Sunday.
If I had been required to practice every day like Bando requires, I don't know if I would have started lying, abandoned my band grade, or quit band altogether, but one of those three would have happened. As much as I loved band, I would have hated being required to practice every day even more.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:What I feel is that we must understand is that regardless of our age, rank, sex, or skin, we are all granted unalienable rights under God (according to the Constitution).
It's the Declaration of Independence which talks about unalienable rights, not the constitution.
Posted by Steve_G (Member # 10101) on :
Man what's with all the bragging band geeks here at Hatrack? I wanted to play trumpet in 6th grade, but got stuck with a clarinet, because we couldn't afford a trumpet and had a friend with a clarinet I could borrow. I stuck with it for 2 years rarely practiced, and rarely got higher than 2nd or 3rd to last chair. I knew I was bad at it, hated dragging that clarinet home to practice, and finally dropped it (the class not the borrowed clarinet) after the second year. I did switch over to choir for 8th grade and liked it better than band, though I wasn't very good at it either.
Nowadays I can averagely play a couple of songs on the harmonica from memory and consider that good enough.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I used to drain my spit valve on guys like you.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Is that what they're calling it now?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Bragging? You want bragging?
OK.
I played the clarinet, and I was awesome. I was the only guy who played the clarinet, and I was always first chair. And I was generally pretty obnoxious about it.
I loved the clarinet when we were playing inside or with the orchestra, but I hated it when we went outside. As a woodwind in marching band, I was there to make pretty pictures on the field and look like I was playing my instrument. Oh, and for the occasional obnoxious trill.
Which is why I switched to pit percussion during marching season. Not only was I not useless anymore, but I didn't even have to march!
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
Just for a compairison. My band teacher called me in after the first quarter of my sophmore year, told me he was giving me an F for the quarter, and would continue to give me F until I started to take private lessons. I was the only one given that "offer". I called a Bassoonist from the Utah Symphony that very evening and started on Saturday. (He was the third bassoon and a prodigy several months younger than I.) I have always been thankful for that encouragement. Music was a large part of my growing up and still remains one of the loves of my life. By the way, quarter grades were not recorded on the record, only semester.
Posted by forensicgeek (Member # 8430) on :
Being an orchestra student in both junior high and high school I understand a need for some people to practice. However, in such situations as a school music group there is a wide variety of musical talent. Some kids have played for years previous, and others are brand new. Some students will take more time to master the music than others.
For myself, all the practice I needed came from the in-class playing time. When I was required to practice I found it tedious and boring...it made me lose focus and dislike playing. I learned best not from individual practice but from goofing around in class or with my classmates outside of class.
I understand the need to be able to grade students but the point of being in a music group is to have fun and learn a skill. Dedication does not need to be forced through practice it comes by learning to love what you are doing.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
quote: would agree if we were talking about college-level courses. Not high school, and DEFINITELY not junior high or younger. Part of school is mastery of material, but in those age groups it is definitely not all of it.
Fair enough. This is a philosophical difference about what a grade should mean which we're both taking to its logical conclusion.
I do think that students should also get a grade/ report on things like timeliness, study habits, cooperation in groups, etc. I just don't think it should be folded in with the course grade.
Edited to add: Part of why I think 20% is way too high is due to my system's grading scale. An 80 is a C--not even a C+. A student who (say) aced all her math tests but didn't bother with the homework would get a C, which is not at all an accurate indication of what she knows and is able to do. But even in a standard 10-point scale where an 80 is a B-...still too much impact, in my view.
[ November 05, 2008, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Liz B ]
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I was required to practice an average of 30 minutes a day, or 3.5 hours a week.
I always did it, even if it meant doing 3 hours of practice on Sunday.
If I had been required to practice every day like Bando requires, I don't know if I would have started lying, abandoned my band grade, or quit band altogether, but one of those three would have happened. As much as I loved band, I would have hated being required to practice every day even more.
MPH: it's not *every* day; but 5 days a week. Students can select which two days they do not practice on.
Also, it's a fairly regular occurrence for students to account for days on which they absolutely could not practice on their log by indicated what prevented them from practice (dress rehearsal for a play that took all non-school time, family vacation, illness, etc.) In these cases, I tend to be pretty lenient.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Well Bando, as you know, a lot of it just comes down to your rapport with students. I had teachers I would stay up all night to impress, and I had others who I simply wouldn't work for. I know not every student's exactly like that, but there's a degree of it in everyone. Music teachers are a special bread too- they inspire fierce loyalties in college, but in High School, it could cut either way. Is that your experience?
Posted by lobo (Member # 1761) on :
quote:Originally posted by Artemisia Tridentata: Just for a compairison. My band teacher called me in after the first quarter of my sophmore year, told me he was giving me an F for the quarter, and would continue to give me F until I started to take private lessons. I was the only one given that "offer".
If that "offer" was given to my child, I would not be happy.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I think Art's point was that, compared to his band teacher, Bando is doing pretty freaking great.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by BandoCommando:
Also, it's a fairly regular occurrence for students to account for days on which they absolutely could not practice on their log by indicated what prevented them from practice (dress rehearsal for a play that took all non-school time, family vacation, illness, etc.) In these cases, I tend to be pretty lenient.
That makes it so that a big part of their grades is convincing you that their reasons for not practicing were reasonable ones. Ick. I always hated situations like that.
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: I would agree if we were talking about college-level courses. Not high school, and DEFINITELY not junior high or younger. Part of school is mastery of material, but in those age groups it is definitely not all of it.
I agree with that myself, saying so as a former math teacher and as the band kid who always sat first chair without actually practicing her clarinet at home (save on rare occasions) because she was always playing piano for lessons instead.
Besides, in my own opinion, homework is there to work out the kinks and to reinforce. If I had a student who grasped the main concept in class and they completed their homework, it tended to solidify their understanding and enable them to better explain the concept in question to their peers. I imagine this could translate over to other subjects as well.
Posted by Fed Law (Member # 10319) on :
quote:Perhaps I have missed a large point of what you were trying to say. In which case, again, your input is desired and welcome.
Bando,
It is obvious that you don't want comments. You just want to "prove" that you are right and mindless homework excercises are somehow justifiable.
It is teachers like you that make kids grow up to remember school band as a tedious, boring, and worthless excercise.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fed Law: It is obvious that you don't want comments. You just want to "prove" that you are right and mindless homework excercises are somehow justifiable.
quote:Originally posted by Fed Law: It is teachers like you that make kids grow up to remember school band as a tedious, boring, and worthless excercise.
3 posts in two years. Too bad - think of the pearls of wisdom we must be missing!
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
I think the intentions of the practice log are good but such a requirement sounds like the sort of thing that would make most students hate taking band.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I think Card's questions to you were rhetorical in order to make the point that your requirement that students fill out a practice log does not actually have the results that you're going for. Your desired results are good. Your method for getting those results is faulty.
quote:20% (roughly) comes from the practice logs 30% comes from passing playing competencies (here is where I grade based on their performance, NOT their obedience) *snip* Most students who don’t practice, though, usually don’t pass the competencies…
Here you are grading the students twice for the same basic thing. If they don't practice, they'll very likely fail the competencies. Failing the competencies is the logical consequence of not practicing. There is no need to lower a student's grade twice for the same thing, once for not practicing and once for the result of not practicing which is failing the competency. If they don't practice and do manage to pass the competencies, there's no need for them to practice anyway because they have already met the necessary standards.
Throw out the logs and simply continue to encourage your students to practice, especially encouraging those students who clearly need more practice. Take those 20% points that used to be dedicated to the logs and divvy them up amongst the other categories. The competencies being anonymous are already fulfilling the need for part of their grades to be based on objective data.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Here you are grading the students twice for the same basic thing. If they don't practice, they'll very likely fail the competencies. Failing the competencies is the logical consequence of not practicing. There is no need to lower a student's grade twice for the same thing, once for not practicing and once for the result of not practicing which is failing the competency. If they don't practice and do manage to pass the competencies, there's no need for them to practice anyway because they have already met the necessary standards.
This is standard for academic subjects as well. If you don't do your homework, you lose points for that, and if you don't do well on the test because you didn't do your homework, you lose points for that as well.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Yeah. I never liked that either.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I'd buy into the "we at Hatrack are so smart, that we should be allowed to always ignore the rules that shouldn't apply to us," mantra if I didn't also know that homework did help me when it was good homework, even if I didn't want to do it. It's mostly wrongly applied and often tedious and often mostly useless, but not always. And this coming from someone who has said that homework had a seriously deleterious effect on his childhood, which is true.
The problem, I think, with not combining competency and homework scores (which, yes, are related), was something I witnessed first hand when studying in England. There, in many university classes, there are only a couple of assessed tasks. Actually, in one of my classes, there was but one assessed task for the entire semester, and it was one of just two classes I took. There were some students who spent the 3 days before the due date doing just enough to get a B on that one paper, which was 50%, or 100% of all the work that they were required to do for the whole term. I don't have to spell out the negatives in that equation. My opinion of the British University system is mixed. It is great for students who are self motivated, and who don't respond well to or benefit much from any form of assessment, but it is a certain kind of hell for students who are not as accountable- and that is a large group.
For most of my academic career, until I was at least 21, I was probably more in the latter category. Grades stopped mattering when I started caring about what I studied, and funny enough, my grades went down as my actual output got better, but mainly because the majority of the work I did in my last two years at university was awarded a unit-value far lower than the actual importance of the activities.
It was just a weird thing about being a music major, that the actual work was not compatible with the unit or grading system. So you'd take 20 units a quarter, say 2 English classes at 4 units each, plus 2 music classes at 3 units, and two independent studies at 1 unit each, and a studio class (lessons) at 2 units... the English classes taken together were less work than a single music class at 3 units, and the independent studies took more time and effort than everything else put together, for 1 unit and no grade.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Actually, in one of my classes, there was but one assessed task for the entire semester, and it was one of just two classes I took.
That's pretty much what all of law school is like. One exam. Some professors add class participation for maybe 10%, but most don't.
In seminars, it was usually one paper plus a bigger class participation grade. It was all strictly curved.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I think that flies at the post graduate level, but I was in class with 19 year olds. I happened to be 22, but I think that made quite a difference. If you're in law school, it's because you want to be a lawyer (one would hopefully assume), but if you're in University at 19, it's doubtful you know what you want to be.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I played flute in the band in elementary, junior High and high school and I'm in complete agreement with Bando on this. My elementary teacher required us to keep a practice log. It was really simple. I think we only had to practice 10 minutes a day 5 days a week but we were younger. I did the practice, learned how to play and sat first chair.
My junior high teachers did not have a requirement for regular practice and being a typical junior high student with poor time management skills, my practice dropped off and eventually so did my playing. The first few years I continued to sit in first chair but by high school I was down to middle of the road. My senior year I dropped out of band to pursue other interests. I still play from time to time. Its been several years now since I've played my transverse flute but I do play several varieties of flutes regularly. I wish very much that I had been more disciplined in practicing during my youth. I think a homework requirement to practice would have been the kind of encouragement I needed to better manage my time and develop my abilities.
Music is the sort of thing you have to practice regularly just to maintain ability. I have several friends who are professional musicians and they would agree. The interesting thing is that several of them also slacked off during their junior high years and regret it.
It sounds to me like Bando's assignment is well designed. He doesn't require the students to repeat specific drills or practice a specific song once they have mastered it. Playing anything counts. I strongly suspect this motivates at least some students to play more and improve more rapidly.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I'm curious. Those of you who find Bando's assignment unreasonable, how would you feel if a school team required members to do 25 minutes of exercises 5 days a week in addition to the team practice?
If you wouldn't find that objectionable, what do you see as the difference?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:I'm curious. Those of you who find Bando's assignment unreasonable, how would you feel if a school team required members to do 25 minutes of exercises 5 days a week in addition to the team practice?
If you wouldn't find that objectionable, what do you see as the difference?
I'd be against a school team in middle school or junior high. I'm not too sure about having them in high school either, but they aren't graded are they? Aren't they completely extracurricular? In that case the student's participation is voluntary and can be ended at any time without a grade penalty, so the coach can require whatever he wants. It's a different question.
I still maintain that "co-curricular" is probably not a great model for middle school age kids, and that something for which the kids are graded should be mostly confined to school hours with minimal homework.
It's just not fair to excise such a big chunk of a kid's life and hold him accountable via a grading system.
Extracurricular groups and activities are much more voluntary and shouldn't be subject to grades.
Edited to add:
Look at it this way. If math class required 20 minutes of homework five days a week from every child, that wouldn't make any sense. Because the goal of math class is to teach the kids a certain amount of math, not to make the kids as proficient as possible in math.
The goal for a middle school curricular band class should be to teach the kids a certain amount about music and how to play one or more instruments in a group. The amount taught should be tailored to what can be accomplished in class time. It should not be designed to make the kids good players.
Rabbit, your lament at the lack of assigned flute practice should be directed at your parents/guardians, not at the school. Why should the school provide the motivation required to reach excellence?
Posted by la.SOMA (Member # 10608) on :
i only skimmed through most of the responses but i still feel like i had to add my two cents:
art and performance should always be graded by the individual's own abilities.
i have a natural talent for music. piano, guitar, viola, cello, drums. anything i've ever set to play i've been able to excel at. i was never able to play in a school band or anything of the like due to the fact that i cannot read music. i can understand a teacher's need to set a standard of performance for everyone, i suppose, but there was no possibility of arranging a grade system for students that could play by ear.
i probably should have learned to read music if i wanted to play with the school band. but even at age 12 i was able to understand that i should have been graded by my ability and performance and NOT how i gained the ability to perform.
i wish i could have done as a number of my friends did: pretend to read sheet music in class and just learn by ear when they got home.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Rabbit, your lament at the lack of assigned flute practice should be directed at your parents/guardians, not at the school. Why should the school provide the motivation required to reach excellence?
I don't blame anyone but myself for my lack of music practice. I'm saying that a practice requirement from my Band teacher would have helped motivate me to practice more. Certainly its not the only thing but it would have been effective for me. As a teacher I know that the ultimate responsibility for learning always lies with the student, nonetheless it is my goal as a teacher to find ways that motivate students to do better. I'm saying that at the Junior High level, Bando's method would have been an effective motivation for me and likely many other students.
I think that those who imply it would make practice drudgery, are wrong and would turn people off to music are wrong. I was in bands where practice was required and bands where it wasn't. The bands that required outside practice were more rewarding to play with and retained more students.
quote:I'd be against a school team in middle school or junior high. I'm not too sure about having them in high school either, but they aren't graded are they? Aren't they completely extracurricular? In that case the student's participation is voluntary and can be ended at any time without a grade penalty, so the coach can require whatever he wants. It's a different question.
In the schools with which I'm familiar, most of the athletic teams meet as a class that substitutes for the regular P.E. class and the participants receive a grade. However, the incentive to do things like out side of class work outs is general not the grade. If you don't do the work, you're kicked off the team and return to the regular class.
Band and orchestra are also elective classes. Students can and do drop regularly. In fact, one of the greatest challenges for band and orchestra teachers is retention. Furthermore, teachers generally have the option of kicking out uncooperative students from a band or orchestra class unlike most of the required classes.
There are a couple of things Bando didn't mention as reasons for requiring practice.
First: One of the goals of teaching music should be to teach people the skills and habits necessary to be a musician. Regular practice is an essential part of playing a musical instrument at any level. Playing an instrument isn't like learning to solve math problems. Muscles are involved and without regular practice you can't develop those muscles and retain their fitness. This is even more true of wind instruments where the muscles used in the embouchure aren't used in any other activity.
Second: One of the most valuable aspects of a school band is having the opportunity to produce music with an ensemble. That can't be done unless everyone in the ensemble has some level of competency. The more competent the group is, the better the experience is for everyone. If everyone practices, the group is able to learn more pieces and more challenging pieces rather than practicing the same simple things over and over again. By requiring the students to practice, Bando is creating an environment where everyone can have a more rewarding musical experience.
In this respect it is very much like a sports team and not like an English or math class where individual performance is all that matters. In a Band, the group must work together. If you decide you don't care if you fail your math test, it only affects you. But if you can't play your part in the band, it hold everyone back.
In my experience, when the band teacher required regular practice, playing in the band was an overall more rewarding and enjoyable experience because the band sounded better, we improved more rapidly and were able to perform more challenging pieces.
My senior year in high school, we got a new band teacher. I'd already decided not to play that year because between my 4 AP classes, debate and my other required classes there wasn't room in my schedule but I still had lots of friends in the band. The new teacher started off the year by having the students sign a contract to practice. My memory was that they were to practice 1 hour a day at least 5 days a week but I could be wrong. A few people dropped out, but those who stayed ended up loving it because they were able to do so much more with the ensemble. Over the course of the next few years the program actual grew rather than shrunk because the bands were simply more fun to play in when everyone practiced.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Look at it this way. If math class required 20 minutes of homework five days a week from every child, that wouldn't make any sense.
Actually, that's about what most math teachers assign. The fact that some students can complete it in less time and some in more does not transfer easily to music practice. How would you measure "enough" practice on any given night?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
My math classes were usually more like an hour of homework, 4 days a week.
in fact, of the 6 or 7 classes I usually was taking in high school, there was often about an hour or a half hour of work to be done at night. It was a ridiculously heavy load- I don't know how I managed it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
That IS excessive.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
It's been a while since I've replied to anything in this thread, but I have been reading. Allow me to make a few responses:
quote: It should not be designed to make the kids good players.
This makes no sense to me. Certainly there are many goals to my music classes, many of which are more important that developing good players, but one of my goals is to design my class in such a way that the players become good. And once they get good, I find ways to encourage them to be great.
MPH: many of the accepted excuses for not practicing are laid out in advance, so it's not the kids coming up with arguments about why they could/couldn't practice.
The Rabbit: your points about the additional benefits of practice are appreciated.
Music classes, like Rabbit said, are elective, and often defined as co-curricular. This term means that the class is both curricular AND extra-curricular. As such, many, many programs around the country do grade for things that don't take place during the day, such as logs, attendance at performances and rehearsals outside of school hours, etc. So in many ways, the extra requirements in time and money are very similar to those that people make for the sake of athletic activities.
The question had been raised by a couple people about why I grade twice for essentially the same thing (kids who don't practice also tend to do poorly on competencies). The problem with this idea is that it has a negative impact on the kids who perform fantastically on a regular basis when playing with a group, who practice with good habits, and who are dependable musicians... but freak out on playtests. My predecessor at this program had students perform their playtests in front of the class, ticking off on a piece of paper whenever a student made an error. Can you imagine the stress of performing under this kind of scrutiny?! While this needs to be overcome eventually in order for a person to perform by themselves in public, that kind of playing is NOT a priority for my instruction at this level, except for my more talented kids. My division of the grade into a percentage for practice and a percentage for the results of the that practice allow me to more fairly grade a larger variety of learners.
If you made a reply and I forgot to reply to you, it is not because I have no regard for you; it is simply that I'm on my lunch break and need to stop procrastinating and get ready for my next class! Sorry!
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: That IS excessive.
I nearly died several times from falling asleep at the wheel of my car. I used to fall asleep while standing up in my shower. Again, I don't have that kind of constitution now, and I have no idea how I managed it then. I suppose some things do change between the ages of 17 and 24.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by la.SOMA: i have a natural talent for music. piano, guitar, viola, cello, drums. anything i've ever set to play i've been able to excel at. i was never able to play in a school band or anything of the like due to the fact that i cannot read music. i can understand a teacher's need to set a standard of performance for everyone, i suppose, but there was no possibility of arranging a grade system for students that could play by ear.
Huh. How often I have heard these tired words. First the proclamation that one is inherently talented, and second the admission that this image of oneself has been built in order to defeat the suggestion that one should reach into areas that are not as easy or as enticing.
quote: i probably should have learned to read music if i wanted to play with the school band. but even at age 12 i was able to understand that i should have been graded by my ability and performance and NOT how i gained the ability to perform.
And what age are you now? Because by now you hopefully understand that music classes are also meant to teach you how music works... which unfortunately for you includes something you didn't want to do, like learning how to read it. That's not music's fault, that's decidedly your fault.
Just a what if... suppose your whole band had to take the time to learn all the music it ever played by ear? Would that be a fair workload for your teacher? Would a section leader then be in any position to help the other members work on the music? Would the musicians then have been prepared adequately to play with any number of groups outside of school. The answer to all of these is no. That's why notation was invented, because it makes things easier, not because people don't like it and it's hard at first.
Gah.
Music is a field occupied and created by inherently lazy people. If a musician needs a way of doing something, you can bet that the easiest way is the one that will win out in the long term... and yet notation has been around for nearly a thousand years. You can bet there isn't a better, easier way.
Posted by Fed Law (Member # 10319) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I'm curious. Those of you who find Bando's assignment unreasonable, how would you feel if a school team required members to do 25 minutes of exercises 5 days a week in addition to the team practice?
If you wouldn't find that objectionable, what do you see as the difference?
The problem is that Bando is making kids keep a practice log for no reason other than to keep a practice log - a log that is easy to fake and ignore.
If a kid doesn't want to practice, he can still get credit for the log by simply falsifying it. Bando says that he can tell if a kid has done this by the results when he assesses their performance, which means that the log requirement is just useless busywork - it accomplishes nothing other than add some administrative overhead to the process, which will make kids who like music but hate paperwork end up hating band.
It is extra work for no gain whatsoever. bando asked what OSC thought about this, apparently assuming OSC would support him. OSC pointed this out. Bando then started arguing with OSC, revealing that he didn't want OSCs opinion unless it confirmed his own.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fed Law: bando asked what OSC thought about this
True.
quote:Originally posted by Fed Law: apparently assuming OSC would support him.
There is no evidence for that assumption.
quote:Originally posted by Fed Law: Bando then started arguing with OSC, revealing that he didn't want OSCs opinion unless it confirmed his own.
Clearly untrue.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
It's very atypical for a student to falsify an entire log, though I can imagine that it is pretty typical for students to fudge here and there.
The thing is, having the logs does indeed provide most of my students with guidance toward what should be done. Even if they fudge a couple minutes here and there or claim that they spent all 25 minutes on scales when they really played scales for 10 minutes and messed around the other 15 minutes, at least they had 25 minutes of time with the instrument on the face. They also have an almost daily contact with the instrument. Since the training of muscle groups (and the coordination of these muscles with the corresponding parts of the brain) benefit from daily exposure in small doses more than they benefit from one huge weekly dose, this is a good thing.
It is possible to argue with someone to get more information. This is how conversations often work. I state my point of view, others state their own. The statements of others allow me to fill in more information of my own as a response. This encourages a back-and-forth conversation.
Now, had I said something like "Hm. Well I think you're wrong and poo-poo on your shoes," then it might be a revelation that I cared nothing for the opinions of others. The very fact that I'm replying to arguments with what are (in my opinion) carefully considered responses indicates, in fact, that I'm interested in continued discussion. My lengthy reply to OSC's post, IIRC, started with an expression of my desire to continue the discussion.
Many statements made by posters here have been thought-provoking, and have helped to clarify my thinking on the subject, which was, in fact, my intention all along.
On a side note, I was reading Mr. Card's description of a jazz rehearsal he attended. This was in one of his recent review columns. As I read, I tried to objectively evaluate my own classroom in comparison to the one he described.
Objective evaluation of oneself, I understand, is nearly impossible, of course. Nevertheless, our education courses in college encourage us to examine our teaching using quantitative measures in addition to qualitative - how many minutes were spent with the teacher talking versus how many had the kids actively involved in playing; what percentage of the class is listening actively (defined by eye contact and apparent attention); and so on.
While I freely admit that my classroom is not as picture-perfect as the one Mr. Card describes, I feel that I come very close to approaching that ideal. My first year as a teacher in my first job, I definitely had an adversarial relationship between myself and the students. (It didn't help that their previous director was arrested and serving a prison term for screwing around with his students.) So I know what it feels like to be at odds with one's class. Now, however, I feel that my students respect my opinion as a musician and as their teacher, enjoy getting better, and trust that by listening to me, their musicianship will improve.
But then, only a visit from Mr. Card to my classroom would confirm or deny the similarities. It's entirely possible that I'm deluding myself.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Or it's possible that the students of that particular teacher despise him and mock him behind his back. Not saying that's very likely, or that it would necessarily make him less of a teacher than you are, but OSC's outsider opinion is good for what it is- it is objective, based on one observation. You have to live with your style of teaching and your students all the time, so there's a certain benefit to non-objectivity.
A suggestion: why don't you post a contract for your students at the door of the room, where they must sign every day or week for the number of practice sessions they have done? Suppose you had seven lines per week for each person, and they only had to sign 4 or 5 of them, choosing the days to practice for themselves. Surely some students practice every day, and could sign all of the lines, whereas others might not practice, and would pick 4 days to sign off and lie, but they would have to commit to signing off on a lie every day, thus reminding them that they have not fulfilled their end of the deal.
This would add time with the students signing at the beginning or the end of instruction, but you could split up the list into sections and post them separately, or pass the list around at the beginning of each class, or once a week. Time might not matter for some students- as I can recall I spent a lot of non-class time in the music department anyway.
Anyway, there is a psychological advantage to the students not having to take the piece of paper home with them, and if I recall my highschool days with accuracy, that is a considerably preferable activity to filling out any kind of form.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
Orincoro that's a fascinating suggestion. I'm going to let that bounce around in my brain for a while.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
You might even tweak it a little by offering bonus points for extra practice, and counting the number of times the students have signed the sheet. It seems like an easy opportunity to cheat, and it is, but the trick is, by offering the bonuses on the honor system, the liars who might fill in the extra lines for the bonuses would then not only be lying, but also cheating and stealing.
The effect could be this: some students actually work harder to earn the lines they fill in, and so that they can mentally justify themselves. If students don't practice and still "steal" the extra points, they will get nervous that you will notice they haven't been improving. Also, if you notice a student that hasn't been doing so well, you can check the number of lines and point out to them that they haven't been putting in the needed practice. Since it's public, students will have to justify their signatures to you, and to each other.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fed Law:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I'm curious. Those of you who find Bando's assignment unreasonable, how would you feel if a school team required members to do 25 minutes of exercises 5 days a week in addition to the team practice?
If you wouldn't find that objectionable, what do you see as the difference?
The problem is that Bando is making kids keep a practice log for no reason other than to keep a practice log - a log that is easy to fake and ignore.
Do I understand correctly that you object only to the requirement to keep a log and not to the underlying requirement to practice 25 minutes a night?
quote:If a kid doesn't want to practice, he can still get credit for the log by simply falsifying it.
This same thing can be said for all types of homework. Students who don't want to do it can fake it by copy the answers from someone else or getting someone else to do it for them. These days students can often cut and paste answers from internet site. Some parents will actually do homework for their kids. I can't see that a practice log which parents are required to sign is significantly different from any other homework assignment. Do you object to all graded homework assignments?
quote:Bando says that he can tell if a kid has done this by the results when he assesses their performance, which means that the log requirement is just useless busywork - it accomplishes nothing other than add some administrative overhead to the process, which will make kids who like music but hate paperwork end up hating band.
It is extra work for no gain whatsoever.
First, I think you are grossly exaggerating the burden of keeping a log. For a student who is actually doing the practice, this simply amounts to taking 30 seconds or less at the end of practice to note how long you practiced and what you practiced. I can't see anyone who actually loves music, end up hating it because it required 30 seconds a day of paperwork. There is far more busy work than this involved in neatly copying your answers. Do you find it objectionable if teachers requires homework to be turned in a neat standard form? What if they require reports to be typed or even just neatly copied?
Second, you've clearly never been a teacher or you would realize that this log does serve a purpose, probably more than one. As a student I hated all graded homework assignments, but it didn't take me very long as a teacher to realize that if I based part of the grade on homework most students were far more likely to do it. In the US, even at the college level, even at the graduate level and certainly at the junior high level where bando teaches, the fact that most students will do better on exams if they do the homework isn't enough to motivate them to do it. Its sad but unfortunately it true.
quote:bando asked what OSC thought about this, apparently assuming OSC would support him. OSC pointed this out. Bando then started arguing with OSC, revealing that he didn't want OSCs opinion unless it confirmed his own. [/QB]
You speculation about why bando asked the initial question and what he expected are just that -- speculation. Speculating that other peoples motives are tainted is uncompassionate and unjust.
[ December 08, 2008, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Anyway, there is a psychological advantage to the students not having to take the piece of paper home with them, and if I recall my highschool days with accuracy, that is a considerably preferable activity to filling out any kind of form.
This might be true in any other area, but since students must already be carrying their instrument and music home with them, the added burden of carrying a practice log is unlikely to be even noticed.
quote:A suggestion: why don't you post a contract for your students at the door of the room, where they must sign every day or week for the number of practice sessions they have done?
I think students are less likely to be honest signing a sheet posted or circulated than they are in a practice log for several reasons. First, its way to easy for kids to just sign the list everyday as its circulated without even thinking about it. The log can be falsified too, but it takes a bit more thought. Second, the log has the advantage of requiring a parents signature. This isn't a perfect but many parents at least won't be willing to sign unless the log is substantially correct. Third, these lists would be quite public and peer pressure is extremely strong in Junior High. This could make it very difficult for students to admit that they haven't practiced or depending on their friends admit that they practice more than others.
Finally I would note that this is Junior High, not High School, there is a big big difference. I think the list would work well for an ensemble in the Junior and Senior years of high school. By that time, students who are still in the music program are generally independent and self motivated. A clear communication of expectations and the frequent reminder provided by signing the list are likely enough to get results. Additionally, the older students are much more likely to resent being forced to keep a log and the requirement for parental oversight.
Bando, I am curious. In you original post, the concerns raised weren't about the required log, they were about the time commitment and your question was whether this was too much time to require of 8th graders. How do your students feel about keeping the log? Have there been complaints from students about the log? Complaints from parents about the log? Do you sense any resentment about the log requirement? Do you have students who are playing well and making progress as musicians but who aren't keeping a log?
It's one thing for us to sit here as adults who don't teach middle school and speculate about how we would have felt about such an assignment at that age. It is also mostly pointless. You are in the classroom and much more in touch with the real world of your 8th graders. Do they resent the requirement to keep a log?
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
What instigated the original post was an email I got from a fellow teacher. They had received complaints from several parents that students were coming home with about 4 hours of homework on top of their expected band practice.
The teacher forwarded me the email from the parent, but also asked for clarification on what my expectations were. As it turns out the band parents are very much in support of the practice expectations, even these concerned with hours of homework. I spoke with the parent about Mr. Card's articles on homework, since I felt that they might be useful in her pursuit of improving the homework situation at our school. I became curious to know whether Mr. Card would see instrument practice as an exception to the guidelines he laid out for homework. (I now have my answer :-j) I didn't think to ask what he thought about requiring practice as a principle, but whether he thought the time of 25 minutes for 5 days was reasonable.
Students don't frequently complain about the log; at least not beyond the typical whining of many middle school students. Parents have never complained to me about the log. But then, my predecessor had instituted a similar practice log system before I got here, so the parents and students were already 'trained', so to speak. Additionally, the level of musicality increased significantly back when my predecessor took over; parents regard much of what he did as the works of a minor deity.
The old director's system required a flat 150 weekly minutes of practice. It didn't matter if this was done all at once, or was spread throughout the week in his grading criteria. But I know from research and from personal experience that practicing in infrequent yet large chunks is much less useful than frequent small chunks. Thus my system encourages near-daily practice in manageable doses. It was a little tough for students to stomach that they could no longer practice extra one week to make up for practicing less another week, but when I explained my rationale, they seemed to understand.
There is the occasional student who makes progress musically without doing logs. These kids also seem to really enjoy being in band and playing their music (they still play now that they are at the high school) and when I ask them about their logs, it's usually a matter of forgetfulness or laziness. One kid in particular practices for probably 2 hours a day (he loves percussion) and just...never turned in a log. He regards the low grade as just a natural consequence of neglecting his logs, but when I make a point to remind him about it, he does better for a few weeks. I pointed out to him, "you're already doing the hard work, now just write it down and turn it in!!"
Since this is an elective class, if students really didn't like the practice requirement, they'd vote with their feet.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I hated logs, but I was usually either 1st or second chair (on several instruments over time in several different bands), so requiring me to practice was redundant. I always was walking around my house playing something, and loved doing it.
I was in a nationally recognized band in high school that toured several states and was on national TV 11 times in 3 years. We marched in NFL half time shows, national parades, and in 2 Bowl game parades in 4 years.
Everyone started with an A. If you missed after school practices or performances, you lost points and it affected your grade. The band teacher had a very intense band program, with lots of requitred performances...but the parents and students had a mandatory meeting very year, and were informed of the major performances, as well as the training dates and times. It was fairly pricy...but if a parent couldn't afford to pay for the band camo and training, the band boosters had programs where the costs could be defrayed.
But there was a clear expectation that you WOULD be at EVERY POSSIBLE performance. If you missed something minor you lost half a grade each time. If you missed 2 or mroe performances, you failed unless you could provide proof of a family emergency.
It worked well for all of us, and I loved it.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
My biggest accolades in high school musical performance were: singing the national anthem (both American and Canadian) at an SF Giants game in 2003 with my men's chorus (14 members), and being given the National Choral Award, which is offered to one member of every Tri-M school chorus for leadership and excellence.
My only award in College was a department citation, but many friends felt I should have won a composer's award as well- but alas, I did not.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:There is the occasional student who makes progress musically without doing logs. These kids also seem to really enjoy being in band and playing their music (they still play now that they are at the high school) and when I ask them about their logs, it's usually a matter of forgetfulness or laziness. One kid in particular practices for probably 2 hours a day (he loves percussion) and just...never turned in a log. He regards the low grade as just a natural consequence of neglecting his logs, but when I make a point to remind him about it, he does better for a few weeks. I pointed out to him, "you're already doing the hard work, now just write it down and turn it in!!"
I was a student like this. With me its very likely an ADD thing, although that term wasn't used when I was a student. Junior high was the worst. I had numerous classes where I got 100% on all the tests but was barely passing the classes because I rarely completed the homework.
Now as a teacher I still have very mixed feeling about how much homework should contribute to a students grade. I know that if i require homework be turned in a graded, many more students will actually do it and their performance on exams will improve. Furthermore, by basing part of the grade on homework and projects I give students multiple different ways to demonstrate that they are learning. This is particularly beneficial to those students who just aren't able to demonstrate what they know on exams. Nonetheless, I don't want to punish students who are able to learn well without completing and submitting all the assignments. The best compromise I've come up with is as follows. 1. I require homework to be turned in but it is generally not a large fraction of the grade.
2. I offer a significant bonus to students who turn in every assignment (I don't accept assignments late unless there is major emergency). This is a good motivation for students to be consistent.
3. If a student gets an A on the comprehensive final exam (and sometimes term projects) they get an A in the class regardless of how they did on the homework, quizzes and midterms. If they can demonstrate they've mastered the material by the end of the semester -- I don't care what route they took to get there. In 15 years of teaching at the University level, I've only had one or two students who managed to get an A on the final but failed the homework but there have been one or two.
Maybe something like this could work well for the music class. You institute a policy where anyone who performs above a certain standard on the tests is exempt from the practice log. If you set the standard high enough, few students will risk not doing the log. But for those rare students who love music but for whom keeping and submitting the log is an onerous chore, it could be a great boon.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
The thing that ticked me off about the "mandatory daily practice" that my band teacher gave me was that it was so poorly monitored. The other flutes never bothered with it; they left their flutes at school and never got called on for not doing the mandatory practice. However, accidentally leaving your instrument at home would give you a HUGE mark-down on your grades. The rest of our grades were based only on "participation", and very marginally on graded performances. As a result, I went from first chair to last chair (chairs were based on overall grades) in one day because I left my flute at home, and the other kids who never practiced at all weren't penalized. I've never gotten over that, and I never took my flute home again for practice.
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