This is topic Shadows in Flight thoughts and possible new theory/theories in forum Discussions About Orson Scott Card at Hatrack River Forum.

To visit this topic, use this URL:;f=1;t=005390

Posted by Fremen (Member # 11984) on :
I just had a thought about decoladores, and it came to me while rereading Shadow of the Giant.

What if Bean's descendants are the current Descoladores? It makes a kind of weird sense to me.

1) The enhanced intelligence would help them make a kind of universal language that worked on a more physical level, which could be more useful to them in some way.

2) The shortness of the generations could contribute to a society and biology that evolves two to threefold faster than humans (maybe even more).

3) Bean himself says that he plans on scouting out and finding planets with his sons and daughters. What if he/his children found one they liked or for some reason HAD to settle on and then that quickly evolving society became the Descoladores?

4) The increased focus on biology could help them reproduce in a way that wouldn't be inefficient (and perverse by today's standards). They are already working on either scouting new planets or solving their disease so this isn't too far fetched.


Also, as far as Genetics go in Enderverse:

Starways Congress has the biotech to give people of Path OCD, but not fix Bean's disease? Maybe they found another "key" that Anton found. Going back to the Shadow series, Anton says that there are many "keys". Maybe the people of Path suffer under a similar thing, but then, why would the Lusitanians, Ela be able to fix it outright?

Also, where is Bean in the whole Ender saga? Honestly, if OSC tries to tie in Bean and it's not in some really inventive and unexpected way (like making his offspring the descoladores), then I'll be a little bit disappointed, because Jane DEFINITELY would know about the little Anton's
Key kids, and she would definitely help them out as one of her many, many priorities.

I think that the best way to tie it in would be to have the children be completely cut off some Starways Congress and then somehow reintroduce themselves. Give me your thoughts, I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in and thought it was a really cool idea, although pretty damn implausible.
Posted by KirKis (Member # 12454) on :
I talked about this on another thread. However i'll post about some of my thoughts on the matter...

Graff told Bean that they would keep looking for a cure after he was sent out. He also said that they would call him back as soon as they found one. Around this time Graff was already changing the Mind Game in order to handle Ender's money as well as finding Bean's children. I firmly believe that Graff set up the Mind Game to also alert Bean through the ansible when the cure has been found.

If Bean and his children wouldn't make any stops and continued going the speed they started then they could skip ahead to the current time fairly quickly. Remember that Ender and Val spent some amount of years on several planets on purpose in order to grow up a bit more for various reasons.

Now comes the time when Jane figures out how to travel the in/out space. At this moment Jane, the mind game, would then be the one to alert Bean and his children that a cure has now been found. The question is... Is it too late for Bean? As soon as Jane puts Bean & Children's ship in/out it is easy to believe that they would come back out with a cure for themselves.

Velesku told bean that he doesn't have to die from giantism. That he could go out in space and keep living as a brain. If this is true then Bean could certainly still be alive at this time. As soon as he goes in/out he could come back out as his former self but cured.

This could really help tie the two stories together in such a way that Bean can still be alive along with his children while also being cured.

I could believe your theory also but I really feel that not getting to know Bean's children other than his son from EinE would be a waste.

Bean told us that the only thing worth knowing about him is that he is going to survive. No matter the cost. I don't think he would let a little thing like Giantism stop him.
Posted by Fremen (Member # 11984) on :
I thought he says that he wants to live, but when Volescu suggests that he live as a giant without a body, Bean really doesn't like the idea. I think that Bean would rather die than be just a brain.

That gives him about a year of light speed travel (given he had 6 months on Earth to live, maybe more in gravity free space), which even with the gravity thing that lets him accelerate and decelerate in and out of light speed really quickly, not enough time to catch up to Ender.

Combine this with the fact that OSC says that Shadows takes place after Bean dies, this makes a lot of sense to me.

The only issue I have now thinking about your points is that if Jane is the one to bring back Bean, why didn't she do it when these conditions were filled: 1) Genetic research was done enough for the OCD on Path to be programmed in, which implies near complete control over genetics and the methods to distribute these changes, 2) Jane develops her own personality and relative autonomy enough to contact Bean. If it really is programmed into her that she is the one to bring Bean/children back, why didn't she do it yet? ESPECIALLY right after learning how to go in/out, she should've been in contact with Bean for ages. The only way I can see Bean re entering the series is if he's out of contact with everyone or just Jane, since if she knew about him there's no way she would've waited until the end of CotM.
Posted by KirKis (Member # 12454) on :
In Ender's Shadow, Bean constantly talks about surviving. In fact, throughout his life on earth everything about him has been about surviving. For someone to live through all he has been through and die from something like giantism...

I don't think one can predict an exact timeline for Bean's death. In fact we must remember that what is killing Bean is his heart. Which is what Volescu pointed out. Though being in space will relieve the strain on his heart thus allowing him to live longer. How much longer we really can't tell.

Ender left years before Bean. The ship that Bean is on is more advanced and easier to turn in space which lessons the amount of time needed to accelerate and decelerate. So this along with the Null G will allow Bean to live even longer.

Ender and Val kept stopping on different planets and some of them they would spend a year or two. Then they would get in their ship and accelerate again to lightspeed. If Bean and Children didn't have to constantly speed up and slow down they could catch up to Ender.

OSC does say that Shadows takes place after Bean dies but I really feel that Bean doesn't have to die. Volescu said that Bean won't die of heart failure in space. Okay so that means Giantism. Okay Volescu solved that problem too. It doesn't matter what situation Bean is in as long as he survives and lives long enough to catch up to Ender.

Personally, I feel that being in a newer ship plus the fact that they remained in constant light-speed I think they jumped to the current time rather quickly.

Though if OSC says Bean dies, then he dies. Though it saddens me that someone who is so bent on living would die like that...

For your conditions...

1) Jane didn't call Bean during the OCD on Path because the people on Path were bred with the OCD. Much like Bean was for Anton's Key. It wasn't until the cure for the OCD was found that Jane would have called back Bean. This meaning after she found in/out. I can discuss this further if you like.

2) We don't know if Jane hasn't been in communication with Bean all this time. We know that if she did it would have been after First Meetings with Ender. I would guess that she HAS been in communication with Bean the whole time.

Jane knows about Bean's condition. She wouldn't call him back until she knew for sure that she could cure him and his children. As soon as Miro is healed Jane would have contacted Bean and Children. We don't know that she put them in/out shortly thereafter but perhaps they had to take care of something first before meeting up with everyone else?
Posted by Fremen (Member # 11984) on :
I agree that what you're saying is possible, but I think that the timing doesn't work out that Bean can last that long. Unless a way to survive without a body is found, and somehow Bean uses that either with the resources on the ship, or lands somewhere and transfers, Bean is dead imo.

Also, ender's ship after the first one or two trips will probably use the advanced tech to accelerate and decelerate almost instantaneously. My problem is that if Jane was in contact, OSC never mentions it in the Ender series and will have to basically retcon it and say that Jane was in contact, but he never mentioned it earlier because it wasn't relevant, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS RELEVANT. Why would Jane not notify Bean/children during the search for the descoladores? That search took a while, and Jane could've used a ship full of the smartest people in the galaxy, maybe even smarter than Wang Mu and her OCD friends. This is why I think the only way to make it work is that they went out of contact with Jane, like maybe their ansible broke or something? Although that seems like a cheap fix, it's better than going back and saying that it wasn't worth mentioning in the earlier books.
Posted by KirKis (Member # 12454) on :
The problem with communicating with Bean and Children is the fact they are constantly going FTL. Which means even if Jane talks to them and asks them a question... by the time they answer it would have already been too late. They are literally skipping through time. They would have only seconds to figure out the problem to actually help.

Based from calculations already done on these forums... It would take bean and children 3.8 years to go from the time Bean left Earth to make it to our current time. So the question would be could he wait that long even while in space? How much would he continue to grow during that time?

Also what we need to think about is how old the children are going to be when they mix in with Ender's time. After 3.8 years in flight they will be around 4-6 years old. So they will be around the age of when Bean first started Battle School. Though the children will be better off since they started much earlier in learning.

EDIT: Bean is a leader and would really be needed since Ender is no longer around in the current time. I could really see that Bean would (in the end) sacrifice himself for everyone he loves. Which is what he should be doing since in Shadow of the Hedgemon he stated that he could never see himself sacrificing for the sake of others. He said he "couldn't understand it". So naturally in the end, he should not only understand the reason but do it himself.

Personally I would like to see something like him in a personal ship with the little dr and destroying the Descoladores planet. Now THAT is how he should die. Not from Giantism. "The Enemy's Gate is Down." Should be his final phrase... One can dream...
Posted by blondemama (Member # 12485) on :
I just finished reading Shadow of the Giant for the first time. I have read the other books shadow series several times over. I love the character traits that OSC weaves into the series, strength, family, and love, in addition to the strength the story has in itself. I was particularly drawn to Petra and Bean, and I remember the conversation that Bean had with Petra after the implantation and almost-kidnapping of Petra, when he told her that he was devoted to them as a couple-Bean and Petra, Petra and Bean. (I can't pull the quote exactly as I do not have the book- I borrowed it and have already returned it) I was seriously disapointed when I read afterwards that Bean divorced Petra, even though it was for "noble" reasons, and she did end up finding meaning for her life, who's to say it wouldn't have been better to keep the family together? If it was only a few years, the "normal" children would have only been 3 or 4, and would have been with both parents and all siblings.
Since it didn't turn out that way, I would really like to see some kind of reconciliation between Bean and Petra, at least before he or she dies- for some closure, at least... and since outside of space travel exists, why can't Petra be picked up and taken "out" as well as Bean, and they could have their life together back?

I am sure that whatever OSC comes up with for the story would be wonderful. Just thought I'd throw in my opinion.

P.S. I don't think that Bean would be satisfied to live as a brain, either, but who's to say what he wouldn't do to have a chance to be without giantism, and to perhaps rescue his relationship with the love of his life?
Posted by KirKis (Member # 12454) on :
I feel that Bean would do whatever it takes to survive and protect his children for as long as he can. Even if he was nothing but a brain as long as he could communicate with and help the children grow and learn what they need to... I feel like he would do it.

Having someone who already has a strong will to survive to also be given the need to protect those he/she cares about... I feel like that person would do anything to stay alive for as long as possible.

For Petra... I do wish she would have gone too but when she stayed behind and gave birth to more children with Peter I felt like there was nothing that could be done. She will always have Bean in her heart. Just like Bean would always have Petra in his.

Petra can't be taken "out" because she is at least 3000 years too early to do so. She would have to leave all her grandchildren behind and tear herself out from the world... even moreso than Valentine did. Just to take the long voyage to catch up to Ender's time.

Though it would be nice!
Posted by AlphaEnder (Member # 12514) on :
One thing to add to this: the Park Shift. Maybe no one remembers it, but it's a principle in the Enderverse that allows a ship to pretty much instantly accelerate and decelerate. It wouldn't add too much time to Bean's life, but perhaps enough that it would change it.

However, I believe Bean is probably dead unless he and the children went into stasis once they got on the ship.

I also like the idea of them becoming the descoladores. I mean, I don't like it in the sense that they are an enemy to humanity now, like so many people were worried about, but I do like the possibility that the bloodline continued.

Posted by KirKis (Member # 12454) on :
Bean can survive for sure. Being in space reduces the strain on his heart allowing him to live longer.

Though OSC has already decided that Bean will die. So Bean's children and Ender's children will have to save the universe instead. I do like the sound of it but I really don't like how Bean would have to die this way. I feel like he deserves better than this for all he has gone through.

I would much rather have the descoladores be a different species all-together. So far we have seen Ramen and Varelse, but have yet to meet Djur."The dire beast that comes in the night with slavering jaws."
Posted by Shivordan (Member # 12519) on :
I could think of one way that it could all be tied in. We can't assume that these children will be normal. We don't know whether the embryos were tampered with before implanting. We don't know what the effect of space travel would be on a developing child with a genetic affliction. It may not be an attractive outcome but the children could kill Bean, they could see themselves as superior beings, they have not had the 'rags to riches' experience of Bean. From this Jane could cut off communication, or the children destroy communication with Jane. If they know in some way of the colonisation of new planets they may develop designs on finding one for themselves. It would be tragic for Bean to almost give him life to save these babies, to move heaven and earth to save them to realise his mistake too late.
Posted by Shivordan (Member # 12519) on :
Also, they are missing something Bean had in his early life, love, friendship, family. These children only have Bean, who himself didn't want children with his affliction. As intelligent beings the children will be aware of this, thus giving them a reason also to kill Bean (as they will not have much use or idea of emotional familial attachment.) They may feel they have been exiled by humanity for being different, they will see themselves as the next stage in evolution, possibly unaware of their own limitations. Therefore that could be a basis for a hatred for humanity. Their mother is married to Peter Wiggin, she kept the 'normal' children and let their father take them away, thus an opening for them to be mindful or resentful for the colonisation movement as a whole. I feel it would be one of Bean and Petras 'normal' children who will become the new Ender.
Posted by KirKis (Member # 12454) on :
I would think that the opposite is true then. When Bean was young he had to live on the streets... Alone. He had no parents... no loved ones. Not until he was old enough to meet Sister Carlotta. His children were born in a loving home right from the start.

I think Bean will give the children so much love that they will understand their situation and turn out for the good. Specially if Bean keeps telling them stories about his life and what all happened.

Though that is an interesting idea!
Posted by blackthunder (Member # 12529) on :
Originally posted by Shivordan:
Also, they are missing something Bean had in his early life, love, friendship, family. These children only have Bean, who himself didn't want children with his affliction. As intelligent beings the children will be aware of this, thus giving them a reason also to kill Bean (as they will not have much use or idea of emotional familial attachment.) They may feel they have been exiled by humanity for being different, they will see themselves as the next stage in evolution, possibly unaware of their own limitations. Therefore that could be a basis for a hatred for humanity. Their mother is married to Peter Wiggin, she kept the 'normal' children and let their father take them away, thus an opening for them to be mindful or resentful for the colonisation movement as a whole. I feel it would be one of Bean and Petras 'normal' children who will become the new Ender.

I disagree.
I think that Bean's children are going to be too analytical to really care about who abandoned them or why... Really all they will have is bean, who isn't much of a loving father. Though like the post above said he might shower his children with love I seriously doubt it. Thats just not like bean.
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
Not sure if anyone did the math, I didn't..

But I am going to assume Beans kids will be or are going to be close to becoming giants....if the kids are already giants there would be more conflict, the genetic trait could be turned off similar to Paths conflict...but the damage done already wouldn't be reversed... their brains wouldn't just lose their memory it would just record normally as will their bodies remain large to support their head.

Speaking of language, the Descoladores seem to understand the group outside their planet is human and penquino... if these were beans children surely they would have retain what language they already knew, so why would they be sending funny pictures XD

Bean does love his kids lots! First he had them ._. Secondly he took them off the planet so they couldn't be manipulated and so they had a chance for a cure.

As for his kids killing him... Bean's lot is more understanding that most people, I guarantee his kids will not kill him, he's practically dead already ._.
Posted by dlaxd (Member # 12540) on :
I think Ela and the others will design a cure for Bean's disease using faster than light travel but will only be able to give it to Bean's kids because Bean will be so big that he dies soon after he lands on a planet which I think will be Lusitania.
Posted by dlaxd (Member # 12540) on :
And for them killing Bean, Bean is at least five times bigger than them and could overpower them and tie them up so they can't attack them in his sleep, and this would be showing his survival instinct.
Posted by KirKis (Member # 12454) on :
I would really doubt that. Bean loves his children and wants them to survive just as much as his own survival. The children will be smart enough to realize the situation and try to help their father live longer rather than just sit back and watch him die.
Posted by Fremen (Member # 11984) on :
Didn't OSC already say that Bean will be dead in SiF? Just like Ender, we'll be playing with a relatively all new cast.

I think he wants to make it an epic Gen 2 thing. Like the end effect of Battle School.
Posted by KirKis (Member # 12454) on :
Yes, he did say that Bean will be dead in SiF. Though should he be? Does he have to be? Can't there be a way for him to live? Or at least give his life for a cause?

I always thought that he would give his life to protect others. He would be the one that would sacrifice his life to save humanity. Just because it would be the final step in his character development. In his own story he said that he would never sacrifice his life for others. So this should naturally be the last action he should take.
Posted by la.SOMA (Member # 10608) on :
i'm sure there's tons of spoiler alerts all over but here's one any way:

Spoiler Alert.

i dont recall the exact quote, but before leaving earth bean says something about discovering planets, etc etc not wanting to return to earth.

i'd imagine that bean assists a newborn starways congress in discovering said planets for colonization. i dont see why in his time in space that he couldnt have played some fundamental role in keeping the starways congress from being corrupt. in beans death, congress starts to become more like we know it in previous books.

perhaps before his death, jane contacts him... but then shadows in flight would begin.

as OSC has mentioned.. beans death will only be touched on in an intro to the book.
Posted by KirKis (Member # 12454) on :
I could see Bean having some influence over starways congress... Even if he is helping them with colonization. But from what I recall wasn't the 100 planets now colonized by Starways Congress... Bugger Worlds? Wasn't Lusitania the first colonized world that wasn't originally home to the formics?

I can't wait to see what Bean and his Children have been up to for the past 3000 years.
Posted by Melvin Nevergold (Member # 12552) on :
Maybe he's counting the launch of bean's ship as the time of death. To the rest of the world Bean is as close to dead as would make no difference.
Posted by dlaxd (Member # 12540) on :
actually ganges was the first colony that wasn't home to the formics first but lsitania was the first one with a sentient species

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2