I too say the Star Destroyer is more deadly than the Star Ship Enterprise for the following reason...
* It destroys stars.
Thank you very much.
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
quote:"I asked him about the whole warp drive vs. hyperdrive thing," said Jason Schmidt, 45 of Maplewood, Minn. "And he ignored it, saying he was here to talk about battles, not space drives. And I'm all, 'Oh, whatever!' and he's all 'You've been brainwashed, you scruffy-lookin' nerf herder!' and I'm all laughin' 'cause he's quoting Star Wars to make fun of me. What a loser!"
Hahaha.
Seriously, this Eisenburg guy is a fool. His whole stupid argument relies on Darth Vader being aboard the star destroyer.
Star wars sucks.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Apparently, Pat, your side of the argument is "totally stupid and gay".
Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
But seriously. If you want to take over the Hoth system, would you rather have a fleet of Star Destroyers, or a fleet of Starships.
(Taking into account the fact that ion cannons disable Starships as well as Star Destroyers)
I'll take the Star Destroyers any day.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
1) no it doesn't
2) of course it could take the enterprise, it's huge in comparison!
Posted by Godric (Member # 4587) on :
I don't know... I think it does have to do with who's onboard the vessels. I'm not sure that you can compare the vessels themselves and come up with an adequate prediction of who would win...
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
Star destroyers have no maneuverability. They just float around, clunky and useless. Starships would be all over them, weaving in and out, efficiently carrying out madness and mayhem. It's not even a contest.
Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
We've had this conversation before. And while I think it's marginally unfair, the Enterprise would win, hands-down, based on what the show's canon has established.
1) The Enterprise is immune to lasers. Now, you can argue that "turbolasers" are a form of plasma -- especially since they clearly travel slower than light -- so I'll let this one slide.
2) The Enterprise can continue to fight while traveling at relativistic velocities. Since Star Destroyers fire turbolasers and basic torpedoes, this means that their weapons cannot actually HIT the Enterprise, much less pick it up on sensors.
3) The Enterprise has transporters. While they're useless when a ship is shielded, it's clear that it's actually pretty easy to drop the shield generators on a Star Destroyer -- and once that happens, the argument's over.
On the side of the Empire, you have the Force -- as embodied by two or three people capable of using it in the entire galaxy -- and a form of hyperdrive that would enable the Star Destroyer to cross most of the galaxy almost instantly, at speeds well in excess of the best Federation tech.
So, for all that it flies in the face of reason, the Empire would be forced to resort to hit-and-run strikes against individual planets using their superior distance travel technologies, quickly fleeing from any sizable starship. Kamikaze attacks from TIE fighters might help, but even TIEs aren't infinite in number.
Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
Tom.
You scare me. You don't run that site I linked, do you? Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
Not only can the Enterprise and its Star Trek kin travel and fight at relatavistic velocities, according to many sources, the "warp bubble" also allows for vastly superior maneuvering because Newtonian physics are said not to apply inside the field.
Now, the real question is, can a Third Invasion I.F. starship take down a Star Destroyer. Granted, we know precious little about the spacecraft in the enderverse, but I'd say that the Little Doctor would make short work of any Imperial hardware.
I personally belive that both the Star Wars and Star Trek universes are rather silly. I've heard a great many people argue the plausibility of one side over the other, but when it comes right down to it, both universes don't work.
The concept of warp drive is sort of silly, as is the dependance on Dilithium crystals--unobtainium, basically--for power.
Equivalently, the society put forward in the Star Wars universe either lacks a firm basis in chemistry, has an inflexible society, or both. I am of the belief that a minigun--a chemical slug-thrower--would be capable of destroying most of the Jedi order. Equivalently, supermassive objects like a Star Destroyer and the Death Star could easily be annihilated by use of massive asteroids exerting insane amounts of kinetic energy.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
5 movies. Some boooks.
10 movies. 5 series. Enough books to sink a Star Destroyer.
'Nuff said. Posted by popatr (Member # 1334) on :
My brother and I (Dio, who has posted here very few times) used to argue about this all the time. I was always on star trek's side.
Tom, in this thing, you are a man after my own heart. I have used all of those very same arguments, without hearing them elsewhere.
In addition, the star wars folks can't aim worth crap. They use world war 1 targeting methods. (Think scene with melenium falcon and ties)
Plus: Ion cannons only work on electronics, while there have been some episodes in star trek that suggest that that's not what they use- rather fiber optics and some other tech.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I think a star destroyer could just run over the enterprise. Unless it hit the star destroyers precious bridge, it would be fine.
Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
So maybe a better question would be if Picard and the Enterprise took on Darth Vader and a Star Destroyer in a battle outside the Earth's atmosphere, who would win?
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Vader. He's got TIE Fighters.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
The Enterprise has a longer range on its weapons. It could launch a few quantum torpedoes at the Star Destroyer's bridge and thus cripple the entire ship.
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
Which Enterprise? There have been 6.5 Enterprises shown in the Star Trek series:
The original Enterprise, as shown in the original series. Designation NCC-1701. I don't know the class of ship it was.
The refitted Enterprise, as shown in the first Star Trek movie and beyond (I don't remember the extent, it gets cooked in one of the movies, but I'm fuzzy on when. I never liked the movies very much). Designation NCC-1701-A. Same class, refitted.
The Enterprise B, as seen in the beginning of Star Trek: Generations. Designation NCC-1701-B. Excelsior Class.
The Enterprise C, as seen in one of the episodes of The Next Generation. It's got funny "squared off" nacelle mounts. I think it was more combat-specialized than the other iterations. Designation NCC-1701-C. Class?
The Enterprise D, as seen in The Next Generation. The Enterprise we know and love, but it's still crazy and rounded. Designation NCC-1701-D. Galaxy Class.
The Enterprise E, as seen in Star Trek: First Contact and Star Trek: Nemesis. It's like a glass-ified version of the Enterprise B. I think it looks amazing, but I know other people who can't stand it. It, too, is more suited for a combat role than most of its predecessors. Designation NCC-1701-E. Sovereign Class.
The Enterprise. As seen in the series Enterprise. It doesn't have shields. It doesn't have replicators. It doesn't have transporters (okay, it has one, but everyone's afraid of it). Its weaponry consists of glorified Tomahawks and two little turrets. It doesn't have a designation, and I don't think it has a class.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
The original NCC-1701 was a Constellation class, I believe. I assume Pat was referring to the Galaxy class.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
The C was Ambassador class.
Yes, I'm a trekkie. Not a warsie. I still think a Star Destroyer would take any of the Enterprises.
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
Oh, just so you all know, the Romulans own both the Federation and the Empire. You can't argue with a ship whose power plant is based off of time-space distortions and, once turned on--cannot be turned off.
Runs away to don flame-retardant clothes.
Thanks, Fugu, Jon Boy, I used to know these things, but that information was bumped off my memory shelf by other, slightly more important things (like the number of spells per day that a 12th level Wizard can cast in D&D ).
[ July 18, 2003, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: WheatPuppet ]
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Two words:
holodeck.
Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
Two words:
holodeck is only one word.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
That's one word :-)
Anyways, two words: imperial holonet.
Realtime galaxywide communications are far more valuable. It is knowledge that wins wars.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I think the real question is: Which was worse? Star Wars Episode 2, or Star Trek: Nemesis.
I'm gonna have to go Episode 2, my dearies.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Definitely.
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
are you guys forgetting that star wars ships had almost no shields at all? They would be defenseless against the ubder weaponry and tech. of the enterprise.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:It doesn't have a designation, and I don't think it has a class.
The Enterprise as seen in the series Enterprise has designation NX-01. We are not given any direct reference to its class, but ships classes are named after the first ship commissioned in that class. Since the Enterprise is the first of its kind, we can assume that it is an Enterprise class starship.
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
That Picard is so hot right now.
Posted by Head Ditch Digger (Member # 5085) on :
People, this could never happen. Star Wars was along time agoe in a galaxy far away and Star Trek happens in the future here in this space.
Sheesh, Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I loved both Star Wars: Attack of the Clones and Star Trek: Nemesis.
Fugu, Starfleet has realtime communications, too.
Now here's a good question: Out of a Borg cube and the Death Star, which would win?
Edit: Good point, Head Ditch Digger. Your astouding logic shames me.
[ July 18, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
You know what was great? When Picard was captured and tortured by that Cardassian guy. Nudity and everything!
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
I think an even more interesting question would be: Who would win, a borg sphere or the death star? What with both of them being spheres and all.
The borg would win. Resistance from the death star would be futile!
Posted by Head Ditch Digger (Member # 5085) on :
Fitz- using that logig, because the Enterprise destroyed 2 cubes and 1 sphere, it would have no problem with the death star.
Also, getting back to my original argument, the Death star would be soo old and delapidated that the enterprise would be able to destroy it with little or no effort.
Posted by popatr (Member # 1334) on :
The enterprise just needs to beam a tidy little bomb into something important- like the core.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I think the LEXX could beat them all.
Although maybe MOIA...
Hmm... Not sure which.
Posted by Gottmorder (Member # 5039) on :
as for a Star destroyer vs the Enterprise, character shields aside, the Star destroyer would win. Why? A little thing called the Incredible Cross Sections came out for AoTC that rates the turbolasers at 200 gigatons, which completely outmatches the firepower that can be produced by any Federation starship, which the highest numbers are in the mid to high megatons.
And despite how much I hate it, as I makes versus no fun, it is completely canon as it does not contradict the movies.
[ July 18, 2003, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Gottmorder ]
Posted by Gottmorder (Member # 5039) on :
quote:The enterprise just needs to beam a tidy little bomb into something important- like the core.
The star destroyer has its shields up. When the shields are up, the transporters don't work, and the Enterprise has no hope to take down shields that can withstand 16 terratons/sec.
The only way Trek can win is through technobabble.
Posted by Gottmorder (Member # 5039) on :
quote:We've had this conversation before. And while I think it's marginally unfair, the Enterprise would win, hands-down, based on what the show's canon has established.
1) The Enterprise is immune to lasers. Now, you can argue that "turbolasers" are a form of plasma -- especially since they clearly travel slower than light -- so I'll let this one slide.
and use cannon barrels and not lenses, and they explode like flak, and act nothing like light.
quote: 2) The Enterprise can continue to fight while traveling at relativistic velocities. Since Star Destroyers fire turbolasers and basic torpedoes, this means that their weapons cannot actually HIT the Enterprise, much less pick it up on sensors.
Warp strafing has been thought up before, but the fact of the matter is, the Enterprise couldn't even scratch the star destroyer's shields whereas if the Enterprise is hit even once, it's taken out.
quote: 3) The Enterprise has transporters. While they're useless when a ship is shielded, it's clear that it's actually pretty easy to drop the shield generators on a Star Destroyer -- and once that happens, the argument's over.
The only time we've seen the shields taken out was in Return of the Jedi, and that was only after the entire rebel fleet concentrated their firepower on those generators.
"Concentrate all firepower on that super star destroyer!" -Admiral Ackbar
quote: On the side of the Empire, you have the Force -- as embodied by two or three people capable of using it in the entire galaxy -- and a form of hyperdrive that would enable the Star Destroyer to cross most of the galaxy almost instantly, at speeds well in excess of the best Federation tech.
a form of hyperdrive? Actually, most SW ships can cross large portions of the galaxy in relatively short time.
quote: So, for all that it flies in the face of reason, the Empire would be forced to resort to hit-and-run strikes against individual planets using their superior distance travel technologies, quickly fleeing from any sizable starship. Kamikaze attacks from TIE fighters might help, but even TIEs aren't infinite in number.
Consider the Empire has superior numbers, firepower, and actually uses fighters(which number in the millions), and controls much, much more territory than the UFP, the Empire has this in the bag.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:The only time we've seen the shields taken out was in Return of the Jedi, and that was only after the entire rebel fleet concentrated their firepower on those generators.
"Concentrate all firepower on that super star destroyer!" -Admiral Ackbar
IIRC, it was actually the Millenium Falcon taking out the sphere atop the command tower on the SD that took out the shields.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
It was two A-Wings, actually.
Posted by msakaseg (Member # 3826) on :
I stand corrected.
<---- saxon75, btw
Posted by Gottmorder (Member # 5039) on :
We see the MF and/or the two Awings take down the shield generators, but that does not prove that was all that was fired there. When Ackbar said all firepower, I'm pretty sure he meant for any nearby capital ships, ie corvettes or the Mon Calimari cruisers.
edit, to quote Mike Wong(i feel really dirt for doing this for some reason )
quote:According to the Williamson Classic STAR WARS comic strips, the Executor's shielding defences were one of its most formidable features. The ship was considered virtually unassailable in the years between the battles of Yavin and Hoth. During the Battle of Endor, Admiral Ackbar realised that the mighty flagship could be defeated if his Calamarian cruisers subjected the shields to an especially concerted barrage, resulting in shield failure and exposure of sensitive structures (eg. bridge and scanner globes) to pinpoint starfighter strafing.
In the present literature there are few quantitative indications of the Executor's precise shield strength. We know that a deliberate and concentrated bombardment by somewhere between half a dozen and two dozen Mon Calamari cruisers caused shield failure within a matter of minutes. Unfortunately we can't quantify the shield capacity directly because we don't yet know the maximum yield of Mon Calamari warships' guns. To total yield of Ackbar's barrage was probably the equivalent of a continual bombardment by several Imperial star destroyers over the same time period.
[ July 18, 2003, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Gottmorder ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Heh, that editor guy on stardestroyer.net is certainly vociferous, but he's also a physics dunce. The Insurrection article was particularly amusing as to how little knowledge of physics he demonstrated in his railing against star trek (instead of finding many of the flaws that were there, he railed against flaws that weren't).
Posted by Rahl22 (Member # 1376) on :
I think everyone here is forgetting one incredibly important fact.
These worlds are governed by the laws of fiction. The Federation is good, whereas the Empire is bad.
Good prevails in fiction.
Ergo, the Federation wins.
I don't care if you had a freaking shuttle craft taking on the death star itself -- good vs. evil. And in fiction, it's just plain hands down.
Posted by Gottmorder (Member # 5039) on :
Blast! He's right, I concede this debate based off those laws.
Posted by popatr (Member # 1334) on :
I need my brother to bring out his old star wars tech books- but if I remember right, they describe the two types of star wars shields, both with major weakness that a fed ship could exploit. One is a particle sheild, which would not stop a beaming, necessarily. And Secondly, there is the classic deflector sheild which is generated from those ball thingys- The weakness is that it emits from them in a pattern leaving a small section of the emitter vulnerable. Hence, beam a bomb through the weak spot of the emitter, then take on the rest of the ship.
It's been a long time, though, so maybe I'm remembering things wrong.
Posted by Gottmorder (Member # 5039) on :
no offense, but probably, this is something Trekkies would have definately said something about on spacebattles.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
I know this thread was dead, but I happened across it while looking for another one and the über-geek in me just couldn't let this go:
quote:The original NCC-1701 was a Constellation class, I believe.
This is incorrect. The original NCC-1701 was a Constitution class vessel. An example of a Constellation class vessel is the USS Stargazer, Picard's first ship and the one on which he invented the Picard Maneuver.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Oh, goodness. I'm so embarrassed. I knew that, but it must've come out wrong. Please excuse me—I must go pay penance to the geek gods.
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
Ok, we all know the Tie fighter was quite deadly, but the majority of the Empires fleet was Tie Bombers, which didnt do so hot. Why not all Tie fighters?
Rhaegar
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Mostly TIE Bombers? Since when?
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
Read the script of ROTJ undedited, it gives fleet stats.
Rhaegar
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
I really think that the canon should only consist of the films and television shows as released. No unedited scripts, no fan fiction, no novelizations (or just novels, for that matter).
Now, the real question is whether to use the special edition Star Wars films or the original versions.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Amen, Saxon. But I think that none of the novels should count. Have you read any of them? Timothy Zahn and Kevin J. Anderson wrote some decent stuff, but I don't think it's quite Star Wars. The rest is pretty much crap. Even Zahn's second series (the Thrawn duology, or whatever it was called) was pretty lame. And I think that since Lucas has said that the special editions are the definitive editions, you'd have to go with those.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Ah, you misunderstand. By "or just novels" I meant that not even the novels that were original works and not merely transcripts of the films should count. So we're in agreement.
You know one of the things that always stuck in my craw about the special edition films? I was always just fine with thinking Han shot first.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Yeah, me too. Was Lucas just trying to make Han look better? 'Cause I thought he wasn't supposed to look very good (no, not in that way) until he saves Luke at the end.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Exactly! He's supposed to be this selfish, sort of scummy mercenary type who in the end redeems himself at the last minute. Having him dodge a blaster bolt like a cowboy wrecks it for me.
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