Kasie, why in the world would you be referencing The Star? Are you also located in or near KCMO?
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
You are wrong. It does help something- the careers of those who passed it. It may not be right, and according to the article will not really be much of a deterrent towards terrorists, but at least it will look as if the lawmakers are doing something.
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
Five minutes ago this was the top story, but now it's moved down to the links below the Israel/Palestine headline.
[ July 31, 2003, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Kasie H ]
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Its nice to know Sharon gave his word yesterday that he would expend..."every effort to minimize the infringement on the daily life of the Palestinian population," (Yesterday's conference in Isreal)
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Well. Those who claimed Israel did not have discriminatory laws just had their legs cut out from under them...
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
Israel is slowly doing to the Arabs what the Nazis did to them.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Godwin's Law.
gg.
Posted by Potemkyn (Member # 5465) on :
Yep Mikado,
They certainly are rounding up the Palestinians into concentration camps, taking their few possessions (including fillings), then putting them into forced labor, and finally systematically exterminating them. I mean why didn't I see that relationship before...
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
I said slowly, reproduction control laws that are based on race and forced relocation are the first steps the Nazis took in invading Poland.
I notice how you had to jump to the furthest extreme of what was done to try to counter my argument.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
DM, don't bring up Nazis.
Just don't. There's nothing to be gained on that road.
Posted by Potemkyn (Member # 5465) on :
OK, lets look.
First off, Hitler's policy was, from the start, the extermination of the Jews. Not so Israel.
I have no problem saying that Israel is unfairly treating the Palestinians. I have a BIG problem when you compare them to Nazis, because they are not Nazis. I'd venture so far as to say that calling them that is racist.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Godwin's Law.
QED.
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
Nice try to turn my label of the current Israeli law, however, both you and Katharina are both in error as I do not think the Israelis are Nazis or anywhere close to the modern equivalent of them. Because of the historical connection and policies and actions taken, I am well within logical bounds to claim that Israel is slowly taking steps toward a policy regarding the Palestinians that resembled Nazi Germanies policy toward them. This is nothing new. America did this with the Native Americans and this has been Israel's policy ever since they officially proclaimed the land as having been devoid of inhabitants prior to their arrival. That kind of stance IS geared toward the destruction of any kind of Palestinian identity, since a Palestinian identity would directly go against the Israeli policy of not recognizing anyone as having lived there before they did. Perhaps you should analyze your own arguments more before responding with the cliche "leave the Nazis out of it" response. Sometimes it is appropriate.
Now, all that said, I am glad Israel exists, it is the only democracy in the midst of a region of chaos, but this only makes me more solid in wanting Israel not to portray the democracy they stand for in such a disgraceful and ingorant fashion.
Twinky, you can continue to troll about how what I am saying is expected, therefore should be disregarded, or you could stop being annoying and realize the annalogy is actually valid and extremely appropriate in this case.
[ July 31, 2003, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote: First off, Hitler's policy was, from the start, the extermination of the Jews. Not so Israel.
Potemkyn. Really? Hitler announced this immeadiately after he seized power? No. It may have been his intent, but it started much more subtly in terms of government policy. Including laws against Jews marrying non-Jews. Duragon's analogy has some merit, as well as heartbreaking irony.
[ July 31, 2003, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
First off, I think this law is an incredible overreaction. It is harmful, hurtful, inflamatory, and likely useless to boot.
OTOH, some of the comments in this thread are a bit much. Although I don't like this law, it is NOT making illegal such marriages -- just stopping these individuals from gaining access to Israel.
DM, comparing almost any group to Nazis is unthinkable, to my mind. Doing it to a group that includes many who survived Nazi attrocities is maliciously cruel. It's not terribly useful as a tool of rhetoric, either.
quote: Hitler announced this immeadiately after he seized power?
quote: When Mein Kampf was first released in 1925 it sold poorly.
However, after Hitler became Chancellor of Germany, millions of copies were sold. It was considered proper to own a copy and to give one to newlyweds, high school graduates, or to celebrate any similar occasion.
Those revelations concerning the nature of his character and his blueprint for Germany's future served as a warning to the world. A warning that was mostly ignored.
[ July 31, 2003, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
No, it's not cruel, it's supposed to be shocking, hurtful, etc. to catch attention and make the point that the Israelis are doing some of the same things their very tormentors did to them.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Rivka, I'm sorry if I offended you. I'll think more about it. And you're right, bringing Nazis into an argument is almost always a mistake. This law just reminds me of Kristallnacht,[edit to add:perhaps not as serious as Kristallnacht but as ominous?] seriously. A bad precedent. [edit to add:perhaps Jim Crow laws in the south or aphertid in S. Africa are more apt analogies. Still pretty bad if not Nazis.]
[ July 31, 2003, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
DM, do you know any Holocaust survivors? I do. And I have heard some of them speak about what it feels like to be compared to Nazis.
Morbo, thank you. I agree that those would be better analogies. Although I would disagree with them also -- in neither case were those enacting the laws fighting for their lives.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
>> Although I would disagree with them also -- in neither case were those enacting the laws fighting for their lives. <<
This law has nothing to do with anti-terrorism. That much is patently obvious.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote: This law has nothing to do with anti-terrorism. That much is patently obvious.
I disagree. That is exactly what its stated intention is.
I do agree that it will be unlikely to do a good job at stopping terrorists, which is why I already said that I think it is a terrible law. But there is a very large jump from disagreeing with a law, and comparing those who enacted it with Nazis.
Oh, and let me be clear, I know that not all those here who are against the law, made that comparison.
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
Rivka, what's with the indorect snide remarks about how atrocious and alone I am in my comparisson? Quite a passive agressive tone you're taking.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Geez, I try to make sure I'm not offending twinky and I offend you instead. I am sorry, that was really not my intent. I do see how my remark might have seemed to be intended that way, and I apologize.
[Edited for clarity]
[ August 01, 2003, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
In Israel's defense let me say that I'm sure the recent intifadah has many Israelis feeling they have their backs against the wall. 9/11 was horrific, but imagine how much worse it would have been if all those victims had been blown up in small groups over period of time. If I was Israeli I would have emigrated. If I had been in charge of Israel over the last years I am clueless as to what I could do. Both sides seem to be running out of options.
[ August 01, 2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
Morbo, both sides may be "out of control," but Sharon started this whole mess. His disruption of the negociation process single-handedly started this second Intifada.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
rivka, I'm inlcined to agree with you.
I think what they're doing is somewhat reasonable. Everyone knows that the main reason that they cannot define the borders is because of the Palestinian settlers. This war has been going on for 50 years. I think it about time that they tried something new.
I may not entirely agree with the new idea, but I can completely understand why it is implanted.
Duragon, I don't think you can say that this is anything like the Nazi treatment. There is not one manical person behind the Israelis, one who feels he has to personally see to it that the entire nation is exterminated. Israel is not trying to get rid of the Palestinians, merely to create the borders such that there's a clearly defined line -- a "you stay on your side, and we'll stay on our side" sort of situation.
The fact that they want to separate the nations and make two separate countries does not make them Nazis.
I'm not saying that Israel is not to blame for anything, I'm just saying that being unreasonable is not at all the same as behaving like the Nazis. If that were the case, every single person on this planet would be a Nazi.
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
I'm not sure if they are very serious about letting a Palestinian state grow up right next to them, and until recently their public policy has been the indirect extermination of the Palestinian identity. Though they did not use methods as grotesque as concentration camps, Raia, the anology is cleart and valid. Just look at all the famous Israeli politicians dating back to Jabotinsky and even Hertzel himself, they refer to them as Arabs and claim they have all these other places to go. Israel wanted to exterminate the Palestinian identity for a long time. I am glad they finally got to talking about dual states.
[ August 01, 2003, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Are the Americans Nazis?
Ever since the rise of the United States, a people has been discriminated against, a people that was here long before anyone else. It is true that the Native Americans have not been exterminated, but then neither have Palestinians. It is not the intention at all.
You make an unreasonable analogy, and I think it works in the other direction too... I'm sure you won't think that the Americans are Nazis just because they are being less fair to their neighboring nation than to each other. Or if you do, then we have very different views on what makes someone a Nazi.
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
Raia, in a sense the Americans DID act like the Nazis, however, the reason I believe the comparisson is more suitable with the Israelis is because of the historical relationship between the Nazis and the Jews, and the leading inversion of that relationship and mentality in the Israeli relationship with the Palestinians.
The analogy is very reasonable, and if you think you can quiet me by daring me to badmouth my own country I'm sorry but that won't work. I have no qualms with addressing America's blatant attempts and successes at genocide. I'm sorry but I call a spade a spade.
[ August 01, 2003, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Duragon C Mikado, the Palestinians do not have a separate identity, nor have they had an identity. The term was not even invented until after the Six Day War and despite all this Israel has been perfecly willing to make an independent nation out of Palestine. So of course Jabotinsky and Hertzel referred them as Arabs. Palestine was just a term the Romans had created to replace Israel and demoralize the Jewish people.
This situation is not Sharon's fault. Arafat declared the Intifada and therefore he started it. Furthermore, it was the Palestinians who turned down Barak's all too generous peace proposal before this began and now they are only reluctantly accepting the current one which would give them an independent state if it is carried out.
I would also like to point out the Hitler had no intention of erasing the identity of the Jewish people, he wanted to erase their existence, and in fact made their identity clear so that they could be more easily persecuted. Hitler's ambition was to conquer the world and exterminate the Jews, Gypsies, and other "racially inferior" people. All the Israelis have done is try to preserve their existence anyway possible. As time goes on of course they are going to resort to more and more extreme measures, but it must be understandable that they place their survival above almost anything else.
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
NFL, you might want to freshen up on recent history, the current Intifada was civilian-initiated with Arafat offering support after-the-fact.
Also, the term Palestinian has been around since prior to Roman times, with their ancestors being the Canaanites. This is basic stuff man.
[ August 01, 2003, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
quote: and if you think you can quiet me by daring me to badmouth my own country I'm sorry but that won't work. I have no qualms with addressing America's blatant attempts and successes at genocide.
I was doing nothing of the kind, but if you do put it that way...
You may have no qualms, except you just said that the American genocide does not compare with the Nazi behavior, whereas the Israeli's attempts to "cleanse" their country does.
The very fact that the Jews have a history with the Nazis does not at all suggest they would behanve like them. The Jews were tormented, evicted, killed, and harrassed by the Nazis, as I may recall. 6,000,000 of them died. I don't think they would be too quick to forget that.
Posted by Shira (Member # 5469) on :
OK....who does Duragon C. Mikado think he is? I am Jewish and i take what u said completely offensively...come on...I mean use ur brain..the religious side of me says that the Jews have been kicked out of every place or homeland they've had and now that they finally had a place...things are workin out...and I understand that the Palestinians need a place too, but it's the same on either side...there are suicide bombings on either side...one side isnt doing more I am really upset by whatDuragon C. Mikado said
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Duragon, so Arafat's "encouragement" had nothing to do with the Intifada starting? Not to mention the fact that he has direct connections to terrorist organizations like the Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade which of course has connections to Al-Queda. However, the fact that he spoke on behalf of the Intifada and he supports if not controls terrorists organizations doesn't make him at all culpable for the violence, right...
quote: Also, the term Palestinian has been around since prior to Roman times, with their ancestors being the Canaanites.
Did you listen to what I said? The Romans invented the term Palestine. However, if the Arabs living there are to be called Palestinians then so were the Jews. The "Palestinians" are no different from any of their Arab neighbors. They were all ruled by the Ottomans, then by European powers. They never had an independent culture and no one referred to the "Palestinians" as Palestinians until after the 1967 war.
Posted by Shira (Member # 5469) on :
newfoundlogic...I love you
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
The Palestinians were semi-autonomous during the Ottomans and I don't think that the period of European occupation was any better than Israeli occupation.
Funny, several of you claim I am being offensive and not sensitive enough, but look at your own racist remarks, "the palestinians are no different from all those arabs." Guess what, I could just as easily say the Israelis are just the same as all those white Europeans and/or Arabs (Sephardic). Its ironic, you counter what you think are offensive remarks with gross racist remarks.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Guys, I spoke out of anger and quickly deleted my post. It was up for all of 15 seconds. I'm sorry if I offended you.
Edit: Thanks to those who removed/edited their posts.
[ August 01, 2003, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: Bob the Lawyer ]
Posted by Shira (Member # 5469) on :
bob..I apologize as well...I'm sorry i would delete mine if I knew how to Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
quote: look at your own racist remarks, "the palestinians are no different from all those arabs."
First of all, I never said anything of the kind, and second of all, the fact that others may have racist remarks does not alter the fact that yours are just as bad.
It's not so much your racist remarks as your view on the matter though, that is making everyone angry.
Don't get me wrong, you have every right to express your opinion, you just have to expect people to argue back.
And Bob, I'm sorry, I deleted my post too. Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Click on edit (the paper icon on your post) and check the "delete post" box. Then press edit. Then I'll remove mine and we can make like it never happened. Aren't forums great like that?
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
MY racist remarks???
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Umm, yeah.
Posted by Shira (Member # 5469) on :
Thank u bob ...and yes racist remarks whatever ur name is (not bob )
Posted by Shira (Member # 5469) on :
did you happen to read my post whatever ur name is?
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
My name is quite visible. Its obvious you are going out of your way to be rude and even lie about claiming I made racist remarks. This conversation is over.
Posted by Shira (Member # 5469) on :
for we know we shall find our own peace of mind for we have been promised a land of our own! (if we dont get completely wiped out in the process)
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Nobody's lying about you making racist remarks. Yes, other people may have, but so have you.
And if the conversation is over now, then I will have to say that you lose, cuz it's COMPLETELY and UTTERLY unresolved, so I guess I'm allowed to think whatever I want now.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Yeah, Jews are the same as Europeans*, except they originated from the Middle East and they are Jewish. Palestinians are not different from other Arabs in any way.
*Except of course for those Jews that are from Africa, or never left the Middle East, or wherever the Jews happen to be from.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
GOOD POINT!!!
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
Since you still have yet to point out the racist comment I supposedly made, its obvious you're just blowing smoke claiming we all did since it was merely yourself. That is why the conversation is over. Frankly I think you are just going out of your way to be ridiculously rude and don't want to seriously participate. Why else would you lie about what I said and act like you forgot my posting name when it's two inches away from where you're typing? Sorry, like Twinky, I refuse to be baited by trolls.
[ August 01, 2003, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
Posted by Shira (Member # 5469) on :
I'm glad we're all interested in the problems of today's society...but Duragon what u say really does hurt me because I know that my people have suffered so much to get where they are today and even now they can't be in one place, Palestinians or whatever title we're giving them now, they need a place too, but I dunno that comment about the Jews and the Nazis really got to me, I feel uncomfortable even saying those two words in the same sentence, but I'm sorry I lashed out, I sounded very stupid and not intelligent in the slightest, but your views, though u are allowed to express them, hurt me
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Shira, I wouldn't feel bad for lashing out. Right now I'm still pissed. I thought I could only find such deragatorry comments on forums where half the members were trying to prove that Israel has death squads that run around in vans killing people randomly in American cities, but apparently I was grossly mistaken. Horribly bigoted comments can be found even here. Its bad enough to unjustifiably compare anyone with Nazis, but when you compare the victims with their murderers unjustifiably that's just undescribably disgusting.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
No, your behavior is not welcome at Hatrack. It astounds me that you can't comprehend how vile your comments are and it seems that if you stand by your comments: "Israel is slowly doing to the Arabs what the Nazis did to them.", then you yourself are a vile human being and I will not take back these comments, because even though they are made in great anger they are made with great reason as well which should be evident to anyone with any knowledge of the Nazis .
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
lol, its not every day I get called a vile human being. Edit or delete that last post before the Mod does it for you, and think about what I've really said in this discussion and not what you have claimed I said. Trust me, if you continue to talk to people like that here, you will continue to be labeled a troll, and that's not a good thing.
[ August 02, 2003, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
So you didn't provide that quote? Then who did? The magical posting fairy? No, you did say that and it is that comment that I am strongly condemning. If I am mistaken and it is your comment that is acceptable on Hatrack and mine is not then I will more than willingly remove myself from this community.
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
WHAT QUOTE?!?!?! if you are referring to the original Nazi/Israel thing, I am well within my bounds to state that they are slowly doing the same things. The fact that I did not specify an exact qualification or quantification makes it even more logically valid. Seriously, you need to get a thicker skin.
[ August 02, 2003, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
"Israel is slowly doing to the Arabs what the Nazis did to them."
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
It's time for BtL to swing in and dole out the only advice he ever does.
Walk away, guys. You've said your piece and then some. You're becoming less and less concerned with the issue at hand and more and more concerned with villifying the other. That's generally a sign that it's time to do something else for awhile. Sleep on it for a bit, this post isn't going to drop off the first page by morning.
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
I guess in your mind "Israel is slowly doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to them" equivocates to "The Israelis are doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to them."
You have committed the fallacy of equivocation in your analysis of my argument.
My argument being:
The Nazis forbade Jews to marry Germans. The Israelis are forbidding the Palestinians to marry Israelis. Therefore the Israelis are slowly taking on aspects that were notable of the Nazis.
If you try to imply totality of comparisson as you have that is called equivocation and is a bad rhetoric trick.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Sorry, Bob, maybe I'm not in a rational mood (for my own well being), but I sure don't feel like backing down on something that is as offensive as this to me.
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
Sorry but you must be rational to understand and use the rules of logic. If you try to devolve this discussion to a mere pathos level then I will simply stop posting now.
[ August 02, 2003, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
"Israel is slowly doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to them" means to me that you believe that Israel is eventually going to murder 6 million Palestinians. You also said :"I am well within logical bounds to claim that Israel is slowly taking steps toward a policy regarding the Palestinians that resembled Nazi Germanies policy toward them." And: "No, it's not cruel, it's supposed to be shocking, hurtful, etc. to catch attention and make the point that the Israelis are doing some of the same things their very tormentors did to them." It was supposed to be hurtful? Why would you do that? Another: "Raia, in a sense the Americans DID act like the Nazis, however, the reason I believe the comparisson is more suitable with the Israelis is because of the historical relationship between the Nazis and the Jews, and the leading inversion of that relationship and mentality in the Israeli relationship with the Palestinians." Don't you realize the fact that there is a historical raltionship makes it all the more offensive?
For you this thread is a history of unexcusable, offensive remarks.
How does the fact that you added "slowly" make the end result of the statement any less different.
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
Um, it does not logically follow that because of my statements that I even intend to mean that Israel will fully complete an identical course to the Nazis' treatment of the Jews. All I have said so far is that the chain matches and a slow reproduction is taking place (ie: initial war, then military occupation, then relocation, now breeding controls)
At any point the Israelis could deviate and then the vague qualification I offered would become obsolete. Nowhere have I said that the Jews will wind up killing 6 million Palestinians. That does not even logically follow from anything I said. If you are going to try and inject things like that into people's arguments then that is ineffective communication.
Remember, anything can be implied potential, that is logic does not allow that particular hack in accepted coversation. BTW: I'm still waiting for you to remove the vile human being thing, it's kind of funny for me, but I want it gone just because I don't want people looking to join this forum that that is an acceptable reply to non-committal, well formed categorical propositions.
[ August 02, 2003, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
"Israel is slowly doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to them" How is that not an attempt to predict the future, a future in which Israel attempts to exterminate the Palestinians? If not then what does this mean, "I am well within logical bounds to claim that Israel is slowly taking steps toward a policy regarding the Palestinians that resembled Nazi Germanies policy toward them."
[This statement has been deleted by KathrynHJanitor as being outside the bounds of Hatrack River conduct.]
[ August 02, 2003, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: KathrynHJanitor ]
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
Alright, enough of this, I am sorry but I have to report this. I offered you two chances to see how things are not as you say they are, and you merely engage in more illogical accusations and character slurs.
I still can't believe you called me an idiot or a racist for merely using rules of logic. I didn't even talk about a race doing anything. The state of Israel, though largely Jewish, is not a single race or entity, and even if they were I've made no concrete claims about anything.
[ August 02, 2003, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Duragon has supported his position well. I appreciate the anguish any comparisons to Nazis bring to the Jewish people.
If you modify his statement to say "This current law in Israel is similar to marriage laws in aperhtid S. Africa, or the South during Jim Crow (my region) or early Nazi laws." then the statement's logic is hard to disprove, although the sentiment may be repugnant to many.
[ August 02, 2003, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
One key piece of data I saw that convinced me was out of 100,000 cases of Palestinian/Jewish marriages, only 20 "incidents" (forgot thge exact wording) occured in years. Data from a link on this thread.
That seems pretty low for a sample of 100,000. And so the law seems more persectory than anti-terrorist. Just my opinion. Posted by Shira (Member # 5469) on :
i feel I havent done anything to help the problem in Israel, only made myself more upset by getting in arguments, I'll just accept that I do not agree with Duragon's view, it even hurts me, but I'm just not even going to open this topic again...the intelligent people need to fight this out, I'm only 14 so it's all new to me but I know what I've been taught so far
[ August 02, 2003, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Shira ]
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
*has continued to read thread this morning after going to bed last night*
quote: the only gross and disgusting anything has been yours and Raia's and Shira's remarks
Duragon, I do not intend to reopen the discussion, even if there are a few more things that I could comfortably say. The only thing I want to point out is that not every comment that was made that you didn't appreciate is a gross or racist or disgusting. Just because you found the comment to be in any way contradictory to yours, or a different point of view, does not mean that you can label it gross, racist, or disgusting.
The fact that you overlook your comments, and immediately derail ours makes me believe that your argument is very weak; you're more after making me, Shira, and NFL sound wrong than you are in proving your point because that's what you believe in.
By the way, your constant use of the word "trolling" confuses me greatly. As far as I remember from the last itme something like this was talked about, trolling is pretending to be a few different people and then starting an argument, to see who'll join. I sincerely hope you're not suggesting that Shira, NFL and I are the same person. That would be a gross example of your habit of jumping to conclusions.
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
No, trolling is just posting in order to solicit a negative response. It's like trolling for for fish, you drag a line in the water behind you and and try to get as many to bite as possible.
[ August 02, 2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
Posted by Potemkyn (Member # 5465) on :
Perhaps I can bring some resolution.
This whole issue has been blown out of proportion.
quote: The law, to be in effect for one year, would prevent Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza Strip who marry Israeli Arabs from obtaining residency permits in Israel.
Basically, this law means that you can't expect to live in Israel if you marry someone from Israel. This is a common law in most countries. The US doesn't always let immigrants who get married stay, why the double standard for Israel? If you look at the RPG thread (a couple days ago), the article in there mentions the fact that Israelis originally allowed Palestinians to become residents by marriage to reunite families displaced during the early wars. Now, though, that is no longer necessary. This law merely closes a loop hole.
Posted by Potemkyn (Member # 5465) on :
Thus, this is not a Nazi like attempt to curb the marriage of an undesirable people. At most it is just a nationalistic "anti-immigrant" law. Palestinians can still get into Israel as residents...they just have to prove their worth and intentions instead of relying off of a spouse.
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
America does not do that, and this is not just about immigrants, this is race specific to one group of people, the Palestinians. Don't try to oversimplify this.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Duragon "Many countries do this" does not mean America. Once again, you contradict yourself. If you're talking specifically about America, your argument holds no water. If not, then what you just said makes no sense whatsoever.
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
Raia, again you are taking posts directed at other people and other statements and applying them to the wrong points. This is why you;ll find people won't communicate with people who do this.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Duragon, I don't believe I'm applying them to the wrong points. I think that I'm applying them to points that you would not like to hear them associated with. That does not make it wrong, but it makes it uncomfortable for you. So you find it easier to blame me for their wrongness, then to accept the truth inside them.
And, about the trolling thing, if I did do so (which I don't think I did, but that's not relevant), then I'm sorry... just remember that if I did, it was probably cuz you were baiting me.
And also, if you think people don't communicate with me, you're wrong. I have not found at all that people have decided to stop associating with me because I say what I feel. I noticed this has not happened to you, even though some have been very tempted. I for one do not think that you should stop speaking your mind, not at all... that is a person's privilege. But you must expect people to argue back.
[ August 02, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Raia ]
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
Wow, you are particularly vicious, you just turned around everything you were doing and accused me of it. This is the second time you have done this. Goodbye, don't ever expect another reply from me.
Posted by Potemkyn (Member # 5465) on :
Durango,
Good point. This is specifically against the Palestinians, but I still think this is more of an "anti-immigrant" policy as opposed to a Nazi-like one. This law doesn't take away rights from residents and citizans, but says that a Palestinan won't become a resident or a citizen simply because their spouse is a resident or citizen of Israel. I, for one, do not think this constitutes a "reproduction control law." That was your reasoning for calling them Nazis.
I don't think it's smart or necessary, but it most certainly is not a start towards genocide or a "reproduction control law."
Hope we can conclude this whether or not you are mad at others.
Posted by Adeimantus (Member # 5219) on :
My 2 cents: The Nazis, and Hitler, began the extermination of the Jews because it would gain them public support. The Nazi's could blame the economic down turn on the Jews and thus be responsible of finding a "resolution" to the troubles of the Treaty of Versaille-stricken Germany. Currently Israel is taking preemtive measures to try to ensure the safety of their citizens and residents. Yes, I agree that this is targeting a specific nationality, but look at it from their p-o-v, Palestinian terrorists are attacking Israel day in and day out. They have to do something to prevent these attacks. The law is not so harsh as to ban the marriages, but to not garantee residency. Certain measures like this must be taken if it means less people die. Im sorry, but peoples lives and the decrease in terrorism is more important than marriage. Relocate. Its only effective on the West bank and the Gaza strip.(I believe)
As for the angry verb assault earlier: I can understand the pain caused by those words, being Jewish myself, but I have learned to take that in stride. I am proud of my heritage and faith and would defend it forever, but I have learned not all minds are wholesome to that fact and we must let it go. Only more anger can be caused by bickering. Nothing was accomplished by the arguement. Thats my take.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Duragon, I can't believe you just said that, but fine. OK, so you can't handle someone defending a point that is important to them. Wow, I pity you. Good luck with your life.
I don't think I'll miss your replies very much, in case you were wondering... they seem to be very bad for my blood pressure.
Have fun making people feel like crap, and feel that they have no right to argue a point for which they feel very strongly. Have a nice time, I'm sure you'll have a blast. You're so very good at it.
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