This is topic Religions v Cults in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by DanielW (Member # 5395) on :
 
Preamble : I'M NOT TRYING TO BE OFFENSIVE, THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION, NOT AN ATTEMPT TO BE RUDE.

What is the difference between a religion and a cult ? What makes, say, Protestantism a religion but the Church of Body Mortification a Cult ?

Size ? Well, the biggest religion in the world is christianity, so that would mean that judaism, mormonism, islam, etc. are cults.

Particular beliefs/rules/rituals ? All religions and cults have different sets of these. Who's to say which are 'better' ? If you're a hindu, what to you makes mormonism a religion and scientology a cult ?
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
I don't know, but I know a cult when I see one.


 

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Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
 
Religions did all their important killings in the past - ie, Jesus. Cults still do religious killings today.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
One sociological definition I have heard is a cult that makes it to the 3rd generation becomes a religion.
Makes some sense, as most cults die out in less than 20 years.
cult-->

[edit: Also, if it makes it 3 generations it will likely make it more.
Cults that have have kids at 18 moving hemispheres away from their parents instead of accepting the cult practices are unlikely to have much sense in them.
So in this sense, if a cult can "reproduce" it becomes a religion.]
a cult propogating into the future-->
bad cult-->
cult leader and victim-->

[ August 02, 2003, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
 
Per Webster's

quote:

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cult (kult) n. <L cultus, care, cultivation 1 a system of religious worship or ritual 2 devoted attatchment to a person, principle, etc. 3 a sect --cult'ism n. --cult'ist n.

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quote:

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religion (ri lij' en) n. <L religio, holiness 1 belief in and worship of God or gods 2 a specific system of belief, worship, etc., often involving a code of ethics

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(Couldn't get an upside down "e" in the pronuciation of religion.)

But as you can see, no help with the dictionary.

I agree with Foust.
 

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Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
So the official difference between a cult and a religion is "A cult is easier to illustrate with smilies."
 

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Posted by popatr (Member # 1334) on :
 
A cult is simply a religion that you don't like.

So every religion is and isn't a cult.

[ August 02, 2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: popatr ]
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
I think cults always involve a person with absolute power over the organization, whereas religions do not.

So, if a religious congregation believes that their leader should be obeyed in everything, then they are a cult.
 

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Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
 
Well....then there's the pope. He's at the head of the Catholic church, and has almost absolute power....does that make Catholosism a cult???
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
I doubt many catholics would kill for the pope or give all their money to the pope if he commanded it.
 

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Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
 
A cult is a religious organization that you can't leave.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Oh No! That means I shall forever be enslaved to Ralphie!

NOOOOOOOOO!

I've worked so hard to break free! :sniff:


 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
I know that I wouldn't.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
I've heard a cult defined by several different criteria, where if the organization matches 2 or more, it may be considered a cult.

I don't remember them all. *racks brains*

1. Does the organization require exclusivity? In other words, does it require that you belong to only that organization or organizations that are sanctioned officially?

2. Does it have strict rules about your money? Strict as in, enforced on pain of expulsion or shunning.

3. Is there an inner circle that is secret or semi-secret that guides or manages the organization?

4. Does it have unique rituals and/or sub-language that identify you as a member of the organization?

Overall, I think a cult could be classified as an organization that is insular, secretive, and requires its members' singular devotion both in time and money.

So I think the way some people practice their religion could make it look like the religion is a cult, but may not in fact be a cult when you look at the organization itself.
 

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Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
 
Here's a couple of criteria thrown out in half-seriousness.

1. If it's a set of beliefs you hold and the group you yourself belong to, it's not a cult.

2. If it's a set of beliefs at odds with your own, fairly new, and no one you know belongs to the group, there's a greater likelihood you'll consider it a "cult."

Disclaimer: Neither I nor anyone I know well has ever been in a cult.
 

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Posted by Marek (Member # 5404) on :
 
It has been a while since my tenth grade religion teacher tried to define the difference so I may be a little off, but here is what I remember...

1. Both put forth a set of beliefs and rituals (just for the record)

2. In a cult it is beleived that the leader of the cult is divine, as opposed to him being the successor of an Apostle like the pope. (hey it was a catholic school)

3. The things a religion tells you to do are up to you to do, and if you don't do them you are punished by some higher power as, in a cult you are punished by the cult itself.

4. Cults require their members to be separated from the rest of society, either physically separate, or just cut off. (usually to make brain washing easier)

He did mention the thing about Cults that last 3 generations become a religion, maybe Morbo and I had the same teacher. The process of a cult becoming a religion can be spead up by having important/famouse/respected members.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
Heh. I got blasted when I started this thread about six months ago.


 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 
According to many definitions, a religion and a cult are the same thing. In fact, look up cult in Merriam-Webster's thesaurus, and the first synonym is religion. It's synonym #2 if you look the other way (religion to cult). This is also why eslaine's definitions were so similar. I've always felt that a great deal of the difference is in connotation. If you respect someone's belief system, you call it a religion. If you don't respect it, you call it a cult. Means the same thing, but gets your opinion across at the same time.

Of course, the other definition of cult is based upon the number of people involved. For example, UHF (the Weird Al movie) might be considered a cult classic. Never a mainstream success, but it has a small, loyal following. This definition has less to do with belief systems, though, so it's probably not relevant.

[edit: I just noticed that popatr already brought this point up. Sorry for plagarizing. Didn't mean to.]

[ August 02, 2003, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Speed ]
 

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Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
 
Jeniwren, I don't think number 4 would work. Part of the way American Jews can identify themselves is by using Hebrew, Catholics may use Latin, Muslims use Arabic, Hindus use Hindi, etc. Also almost if not every religion has certain rituals that they perform.
 

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Posted by Marek (Member # 5404) on :
 
Catholics identify themselves by using latin? Wow I guess that means I have to start learning latin, Oh well maybe if I wear a cross people will get it.
 

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Posted by Marek (Member # 5404) on :
 
Still in general I agree with newfoundlogic, most religions have their own terms, symbols, sighn, etc. that identify them. In fact that even includes most clubs.
 

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Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
 
I said may use Latin, and that was in reference to prayers. I don't think all members of a cult group would be able to speak this mysterious language either.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
I took ancient greek anyway, bad Catholic that I am.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 


Bad Mack.

I always tend to think of cults being those with an extremely charismatic leader, which demands absolute control over the people and their money. David Koresh, Jim Jones, were both "cult leaders" The guys who committed suicide so they could catch a ride on Halley's comit - didn't they have one leader who told them to kill themselves?

And Morbo, this:

made me
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 

quote:

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For example, UHF (the Weird Al movie) might be considered a cult classic. Never a mainstream success, but it has a small, loyal following.

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quote:

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...the term cult is popularly used in two senses and covers a wide range of groups. The first sense in which it is used by some refers to doctrinal belief, that is, any religion whose teachings deviate fromt he doctrines of orthodox Christian belief is said to be cultic. The emphasis is on what the belief is, not on how the belief is held or what the group's procedures are. By this usage the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon) would constitute a cult rather than a church regardless of its status in light of, for example, church-sect theory.

The second meaning of the term, surrounded by frequent controversy, connotes a "destructive cult" and refers to a number of religious groups that are charged by their critics (the "anticultists") to seek to control and radically alter the personalities of their members (Melton, 1986). No abstract defintion in this sense is given, but the groups' critics do write lists of characteristics, sometimes more than a dozen, that are siad to be found among them. The following factors are often included in such lists.

1. Charismatic leader. Fine in the group is said to center around a single person who has absolute authority. He or she is the final decision maker whose pronouncements on both policy and ideology are binding upon the followers.

2. Regulation. Followers may be taught that complete submission to the will of the leader is necessary. The leader's authority can extend into areas of life that are normally regarded as private, such as sexual behavior, marriage, or freedom of speech and movement.

3. Separation. Converts and potential converts may be physically and emotionally separated from tangible or identifable influences from former life, including family, friends, school, and employment.

4. Control of resources. Pressure may be placed upon followers to devote all of their resources to the "Master's" cause. This may include their money, time, vocational or educational skills, etc. In some cases, absolute abandonment of one's resources may be a requirement.

5. Control of information. In some groups, the content of the doctrine is not revealed to potential converts until they are "ready," i.e., until they have been with the gorup for some time and have made some concessions to it.

A note of caution: just because a religious group possesses one of the above factors does not mean the group is a cult. Religious groups vary in how much they display feature such as the above. For example, some such features can be identified in monastic orders within mainstream traditions that are not described as being destructive. Also, some chruches that hold traditional Christian doctrines are charged by people who have left them to do many of the same things that "cults" have been accused of (Enroth, 1992). The degree to which a group should be regarded as cultic in this particular connotation of the term is a matter of repeated debate (Barker, 1995).

Invitation to the Psychology of Religion, Second Edition, by Raymond F. Paloutzian (Boston: Allyn and Bacon, 1996) pp. 166-167.

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So, you see, it kind of depends on which definition you are using and where you stand in relation to the group being discussed, in trying to figure out what a cult is and whether any particular group is one.

Being LDS myself, I have some mixed feelings about the example used for the first definition. Yeah, we are out of the so-called mainstream in relation to some doctrines (the way we see the trinity, for example, and our conception of the organization of the preexistence and the afterlife). So from that point of view, I can see the use of that example. But the term "cult" is used so often in a perjorative sense, that the label bothers me because I think it makes it all too easy to discount or demonize the beliefs of any group it is attached to. I know in the class I took (at a Christian university) this example was discussed in terms such that being "out of the mainstream" or "not orthodox" was equated with being "wrong" and not a valid way of belief.

I hope this at least gives some definitions for your consideration. Please excuse any typos in the quote; I typed it out pretty quickly.
 

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Posted by Jeffrey Getzin (Member # 1972) on :
 
I really think the simplest defintion is this: "Cult: everybody else's religion".

Jeff
 

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Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
 
Jeffrey...That may sound like the simplest definition, but it is far from correct.
 

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Posted by Jeffrey Getzin (Member # 1972) on :
 
Oh? I'm so glad I have your authoritative opinion to set me right.

Jeff
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Considering that if that definition has ever been used, I have never heard it. Considering no dictionary (even the OED, which tries to consider words solely on the basis of how they are used) contains that definition. Considering no one on this board would use that definition. Considering not even many of the more morally repulsive and exclusive "religious" people use that definition (Pat Robertson, even: he doesn't consider Judaism a cult).

Considering you were butting into a seriou conversation and giving a snippy little definition with not even a tad of evidence to back it up.

Considering I like sentence fragments beginning with the word considering.

Your definition is completely wrong.

I've rather liked what I've seen of you, Jeffrey, but being snippy and acting stupid isn't a good look for you.
 

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Posted by EllenM (Member # 5447) on :
 
Auh, come on guys, Jeff was just joking. Jeff use more graemlins

[ August 03, 2003, 01:29 AM: Message edited by: EllenM ]
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
newfoundlogic, that's why I said to qualify, the organization had to show two or more of the characteristics. Obviously rituals and sublanguage in and of themselves don't indicate cult status.

littlemissattitude's list looks far better than mine. I can't remember which book my incomplete and poorly written list came from...I know it was written by M. Scott Peck, but can't remember which of his books it appeared in.
 

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Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
 
Jeniwren, not only do I think that rituals and such don't indicate that an organization is a cult in and of itself, but I also think that they aren't any more specific to cults than they are to established religion.
 

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Posted by EllenM (Member # 5447) on :
 
I love M. Scott Peck. Have you read People of the Lie ? I was married to a person like Scott describes in that book. He was a cult leader all on his own. He wasn't charismatic, but he did isolate (we lived in a tent for 2 years) control resources (he didn't have a job) and information was filtered through him i.e. "The bishop has a personality conflict with you, let me talk to him by myself." Scary, no.
 

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Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
 
And here I thoguht the difference between a cult and a religion was enrollment.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
"A cult is easier to illustrate with smilies."--Docmagic. LOL.
The conversion of a cultee:





 

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Posted by Jeffrey Getzin (Member # 1972) on :
 

quote:

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Auh, come on guys, Jeff was just joking. Jeff use more graemlins.

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quote:

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One man's religion is another man's belly laugh.

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The notebooks of Lazarus Long, also in Time enough for love, Heinlein's best novel.

Note that he doesn't mention crazy or laughable female beliefs.


[ August 03, 2003, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Jeffrey Getzin (Member # 1972) on :
 

quote:

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I've rather liked what I've seen of you, Jeffrey, but being snippy and acting stupid isn't a good look for you.

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What do you mean, acting?

Jeff
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Morbo-- your "Conversion" piece was absolutely brilliant.

I love it.
 

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Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
 
Hi, Jeffrey nice to see you again
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Thank you very much, Scott.
to the audience.

These new smilies are so much fun!
Especially when you group them together unexpectedly.

[ August 03, 2003, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
newfoundlogic, I didn't make up the list.

EllenM, yeah, People of the Lie is excellent. Scary, though. It was very thought provoking. Secretiveness is now a huge red flag to me when I am getting to know someone new.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
I've found M. Scott Peck to be a little scary, myself. If I remember correctly, not only did he advocate kidnapping people for deprogramming, but in one of his books, he stated that he'd sleep with a client if he thought it would be psychologically helpful to her.

But that doesn't mean his other ideas don't have merit, and it would be good for me to cite references to check-up on my memory. I'll try to do that.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
Time Enough for Love was one of Heinlein's two worst novels (along with Number of the Beast.)

Carry on . . .

[ August 03, 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
The Fall of Man in Genesis, as told by smilies.






[ August 03, 2003, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
The Salvation of Man when the Holy Spirit enters the soul, with angel wings at the end.




 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
um, yeah.


 

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Posted by EllenM (Member # 5447) on :
 
Aren't we talking about a person or an organization who uses their influence with others to control them.

quote:

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Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely

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I remember leaving my oldest in charge and because of her temperment, feeling like I just left Hitler in charge of the Jews.

quote:

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Many are called but few are choosen

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I'ts the nature of man, once he is given a little power to abuse it.
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
Jeffrey,

Wow, long time no see. Hope you are staying.
 

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Posted by Jeffrey Getzin (Member # 1972) on :
 
Amka, thanks.

Jeff
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Hatrack is obviously a cult.
 

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Posted by Marek (Member # 5404) on :
 
Complete with it's own smilie language!
HATRACK
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Right. Send me your money.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
I feel this overpowering urge to send katharina some money

...and use smilies in creative ways...

Help me!

I've been brainwashed! They've gotten to me!



Noooooooooooooo! *breath* Noooooooooooo!

 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Let's do the time warp,



...yeah.....

Let's do the time warp,



...yeah.....

<pause>


 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Yay! *clears off desk in anticipation*

Each and every one of you will recieve a personalized thank-you note, and a signed 81/2" x 11" of me.
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
*sends katharina a canadian nickel*

Starts doing the Mac.. *ahem* Katharena.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*is scrawling "I send my devotion to one hot Jatrequera. Keep shaking! Love, Kat" on picture for Amka*
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
CT:

quote:

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I've found M. Scott Peck to be a little scary, myself. If I remember correctly, not only did he advocate kidnapping people for deprogramming, but in one of his books, he stated that he'd sleep with a client if he thought it would be psychologically helpful to her.

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I don't remember the 'kidnapping people for deprogramming' reference, but I do very clearly remember him talking about how he'd sleep with a client if he thought it would be psychologically helpful for her. It was limited, though, by saying that he couldn't imagine a scenario where that would be the case. I got the impression from the passage that he couldn't imagine it, but since he hadn't treated every woman in the world, he was willing to postulate that it was possible that such a case could conceivably exist. That caveat made it possible for me not to completely flip. I assume the reason for the deprogramming comment, if it was in one of his books, was a product of the times. I remember a real trend of commentary on kidnapping for cult deprogramming in the late 70s, early 80s. But perhaps I'm too much a Peck apologist.

I like his books, though I'll admit that his books on community building are real snoozers. I liked the one he did on euthanasia. It was very thought provoking.
 

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Posted by asQmh (Member # 4590) on :
 
I know cults - I'm a mac user.

All joking aside, though, "cult" is usually only properly used in a sociological sense. Often the people using the term perjoratively don't understand it and therefore fling it at anyone they consider "unorthodox." This is why a large number of evangelicals include your typical protestants and exclude Christian Scientists, LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.

In reality, there are cults within various "accepted" faiths. And all ritual is cult. There's the cult of Mary (or insert other saint as desired) in Catholicism - followers show greater than average dedication/devotion to those precepts or articles.

"Cult" when used properly has to do with worship. Anything having to do with a system of beliefs or religion in general is cult.

Cult is often used when many people mean "occult," therefore meaning paganism, wiccan, etc.

This is just a jumble of thoughts - I'm a little distracted - but I hope the meaning comes through. Many people use "cult" as an insult or scare tool. "They're bad; they're a cult" because they don't understand what they're talking about.

Those are my $0.02, anyhow.

Q.
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 

quote:

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All joking aside, though, "cult" is usually only properly used in a sociological sense.

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quote:

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Anything having to do with a system of beliefs or religion in general is cult.

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