It was as if I had just caught a glimpse of God, bending over to plant the Tree of Knowledge: she said she'd had an unbelievably sad day. It was one of the most unfair things I've ever heard--given the timing, of course. Where moments before she was the sole cause of my own, endless sadness, she waited there in my inbox with resignation and exhaustion. I had an unbelievably sad day. God piles some dirt on the Seeds of Knowledge.
In that moment I did something I've never done before. For some insane reason I exposed myself, I became vulnerable and I let go. This for my worst enemy. One moment she is destroying me and the next minute I am giving her access to my soul.
And I have spent the last twenty-four hours trying to figure out what that meant.
But I'm getting ahead of myself. I am of course referring to the undisclosed conclusion to this thread.
First and foremost, I want to apologize. I won't tell you why just yet, but I feel that it would be best to start from that frame of mind in the hopes that my words in this post may be better received than those in the aforementioned thread. It started with an email I received from another hatracker, whom I will not name. In response to one of my posts, they wrote me:
quote:Caleb:
Your point is well taken when you say that my attitude against homosexual marriages hurts many homosexuals. I accept that as the truth, and I am sorry for that pain.
I don't want to cause this hurt, and I don't know exactly what to say, but I will try to explain why I do it.
I know that God loves all of his children. All of them.
I know in my heart that allowing homosexual marriages will cause too much damage to our society in the long term. It will cause too much pain and hurt in the society at large, IMHO.
I will do anything to help and protect homosexuals, short of allowing their marriage. I will do anything to prevent discrimination against homosexuals.
My two best friends in high school were homosexual lovers. I didn't know it at the time, and I am sad that they felt I was not the type of friend that they could trust with that knowledge at the time. I could have been so trusted.
We all have homosexual friends. Some of us can be trusted with that knowledge, and some of us can't. I hope that I am always the type of friend that can be trusted.
I know this is not much. But it is all I have to give. I do not want to cause harm, but I just feel that allowing homosexual marriage will cause even MORE harm to society at large (again, IMHO). I am sorry that homosexuals have to bear the pain of "the greater good" for society.
Here was an honest and heartfelt--compassionate, even--response to my charges. I was baffled. I didn't know how to respond. The author of that passage clearly shows remorse for the necessity of their opinion. They were apologizing for something they felt had to be done, because they were aware of what the ramifications were for the hopes, wishes and dreams that are hanging in the balance of this debate. And yet at the same time this message really irritated me.
Because it came from the one mindset that can never be moved:
quote:I know in my heart.
This characterization of the author's knowledge upset me on more than one level. Aside from the inherent inability to change that this qualification suggests, the author is communicating quite clearly that their knowledge of the subject matter being discussed is derived from an unquestionable source. To say that you know it in your heart is the same as saying 'this is the truth'. The author says this and magically transforms their opinion into fact. Facts cannot be rebutted. You cannot communicate, compromise or negotiate with facts.
Then, the author qualified their opinions twice more; this time adding that their words were merely 'in my humble opinion'. I couldn't find anything humble about their opinion. I'd just been told that my position was wrong, and that their own perspective--they knew it in their heart--had a zero percent margin of error.
And yet the author is writing, not from arrogance, but compassion.
I thought about this for a long time. Of course I already understood that certain sects of Christianity were by definition diametrically opposed to all things homosexual, but for some reason I had always conceived of that as a matter of will. This person regretted the harm that their view would necessarily perpetuate. They stick to their guns not because they will themselves to do it, but because they are completely obedient to their faith. If they did not obey their faith, it would be no faith at all.
And so I came to realize once again--for this is a lesson we often learn several times--that faith makes the other side's point of view as real to them as my own view is to me. Multiple realities exist. Suddenly the absurdity of having these discussions in the hopes of making progress hit me right in the face. I'm never going to change my mind on gay marriage. Why on Earth would I expect anyone else to change theirs? Sure I believe I'm right and they're wrong, but that's exactly what they think, too. It becomes a never-ending circle of disagreement. It's called an impasse.
But I believe so passionately in this cause that I could not let their view go unchallenged. So I had to approach the issue from another angle. I would not discuss the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality. I would not discuss the definition of morality, or whether or not it could be legislated. None of these black and white issues concerned me anymore, because they were black and white issues. And I understood that minds were not going to change (at least, those that were based on faith--my own included), because they couldn't change.
I had to find a way to admit this and prevail at the same time, or my efforts were pointless. I had to challenge their view for the sake of the cause, not for the sake of turning them. It's the only option that was still available to me.
I chose to speak against this Christian view by capitalizing on the regrets described above. I wondered whether or not there was even room for regret in true obedience. I wondered if some of the Christians holding this view of homosexual marriage might be as compassionate towards those their views oppress as they claim they are when they say that they 'love the sinner'. The question fascinated me. I know a lot of Christians that are good to the core. I knew that many would be able to see homosexuals as real people long enough to understand how this position has direct negative impacts to their lives and their livelihoods. And yes, their social status.
That's my ace-in-the-hole, I said to myself. The one ugly truth that they cannot escape is that their position advocates crushing the dreams--and the freedoms, depending on how you personally define freedoms--of twenty million Americans.
I wanted to emphasize how their position inflicts real suffering on other people, because I didn't think there could be an adequate response to that. I'm referring of course to my giant diatribe on the fifth page of the aforementioned thread. I decided that if they weren't ever going to change their minds, and if their minds were to be the sole cause of this discrimination--and make no mistake; our society is so divided on this issue that everyone's opinion matters--then I would be the one to point my finger in their collective face and make them accept responsibility for the division and the turmoil that their position would necessitate. It had to be done. If they could allow other people to pay the price of their worldview, they could at least take the blame for it.
And then I remembered the compassion in that email, misguided as I felt it was. It made me angry to realize that they were apologizing for their view, and in some way I felt them reaching out for recognition that they really did care about the pain they caused. The author would slap twenty million homosexuals in the face and then apologize that it had to be done. The hypocrisy of this was very aggravating to me. Being sorry wasn't good enough. Regrets weren't good enough. And the irony implicit in an anti-homosexual worldview trying to apologize for itself because it has no other choice was simply infuriating. All the sudden my opponents were no longer people just discussing an issue. They were real people with real power, who would intend to use that power to harm the lives of American homosexuals. They became enemies.
So that's the setup. That's how I came to the point of making a blanket post towards anti-homosexual Christianity, and specifically those of you on hatrack that fit that description. And that's why I came out kicking and punching: because I'm angry. I'm angry at the injustice. I'm angry at the inequality. I'm angry that they aren't even able to define the dangers that they would avoid at the cost of twenty million other people's happiness. Every layer just seems more and more unjust to me.
Here's where that apology comes in. I'm sorry that I couldn't have said all these things more effectively in the first place. It's all about the anger factor. You see, I used my anger and my sense of injustice to write those posts. And where it was partially my intent to 'get in their face' about it, I did not intend to be interpreted as an ass while I did it.
But I attacked them where it hurts and so of course they were going to tear me to shreds. I spent nearly two days fielding insults and deliberate misinterpretations from other hatrackers. I kept getting angrier and angrier, too, because I had just accused them of arrogance and injustice; and rather than have them respond to those allegations, they responded to every word I said with, indeed, arrogance and injustice. Worse, I felt that there were many hatrackers who would agree with the things I was saying, but nevertheless left me to defend myself--an impossible task with hatrack being as large as it is these days--without so much as an 'I agree'. There were a few posters that came to my defense, and I am very grateful for their presence and support. And it's not like I expect the liberals and the conservatives to always stick by each other and line up together for battles; it's more that I was being treated so unjustly that I would have thought a few of you might have tried to stand up for--or with--me.
But I can't blame anyone for avoiding that conversation. Why join the fight when that just makes you another target for these kinds of responses?
Anyway, I accept part of the blame for bringing this ridicule upon myself. I could just as easily have changed a few words around and made my post--which I still agree with--less offensive. Again though, I felt that part of my purpose was to shock and offend these Christians--and any onlookers--into realizing the reality of their position rather than the doctrine of their position. Because everyone already knows--in their hearts--that they're not going to change their minds. I didn't care about proving them wrong anymore because I knew it couldn't be done. All I cared about was taking them to the logical end of their conclusions and forcing them to live with it.
See, the problem is that I lost respect. I lost my respect for these other views. I decided that the things they were saying in regards to homosexuals, and specifically their views on how they ought to be treated differently from everyone else, were so offensive and unsubstantiated that their opinions simply did not warrant respect. On a certain level I still feel that way. They are by definition unable to change, yet they have the power to inflict pain on other people without so much as asking their permission. I saw so much hypocrisy in their position that I could no longer pretend to respectfully disagree with them. What I didn't realize is that I had translated that into disrespecting them, which is much different than simply a lack of respect.
On the other hand, I was misquoted and misrepresented so thoroughly that I kept getting angrier and angrier; each step was blinding me further to my own attitude, which to me became more and more justified with every passing post. They were accusing me of putting words in people's mouths--though in fact I did no such thing--even while stripping portions of my posts and quoting them incompletely, or reemphasizing things I had said to make them appear to say something entirely different. And then, worst of all, katharina simply left the thread. Well, she didn't just leave. First she quoted two things that I had said quite out of context to make me look really bad, then said "I'm done" as if she needed to spike her football in the end zone of the argument. It was like "I win, see you later."
That pissed me off most of all. It was so very unfair that she wouldn't let me respond. That she had decided my posts were no longer worth even reading. That she would behave in this way after deliberately hurting me in front of my entire community was unbearable. So I found myself writing her an email because I had to at least let her know how much pain she had caused me. Once again I took it as my place to blame the Christian for hurting other people.
As I'm sure you can imagine, the email dialogue that ensued differed from the thread version only in its anonymity. Though it became clear to me that kat's consistent misconstrual of things that I had said--sometimes directly after I said them, even--was not necessarily a matter of choice for her, either. She had been so offended by me that she couldn't possibly understand what I really meant. And when I tried to explain this to her she still disregarded my words in favor of other meanings that she invented on the fly. But I would not give in. I could not give in. I kept replying and replying, like the English-speaking foreigner that raises their voice as if that would increase the likelihood of comprehension. And eventually she kind of gave up. She said to me in that tired voice that she had had an unbelievably sad day. She just wanted to postpone the discussion for later, because she had had an unbelievably sad day.
It was as if I had caught a glimpse of God, walking away from the Tree of Knowledge and leaving me there to lie under it, all by myself and with nothing to eat. That's what it felt like. That's how unfair it was to me. And in spite of that I started to do something that I didn't even understand. I did for her what I would never have done for someone I didn't trust with my life.
I had to choose between the waters of memory and the waters of oblivion. And though I couldn't think of any battle anywhere where it made sense to give your worst enemy your greatest weakness, some part of me knew that it needed to be done. I told her that she didn't even know what unbelievable sadness was. I told her that I was one of the people she wanted to discriminate against.
And like I said, I've spent the last twenty-four hours trying to understand what that meant. Why it was that I made that move at that moment.
Her immediate response was to shower me with apologies. It was like she suddenly understood why I was so upset, and she couldn't bear having said the things she said. At the same time, there was very little she could say other than 'I'm sorry', which I had already determined wasn't good enough. Then I realized that she was showing remorse at her actions because I'm a homosexual. Here again I'm being treated differently for reasons I cannot control. And even though I much preferred the apologetic kat to the venomous one I had come to know, it really bothered me. None of my opinions had changed. Nothing that I had said over the last two days became any truer or any more false as a result of my admission. And yet it made all the difference in the world for getting her to understand what I was saying.
That's the whole reason I don't come out to people unless it's necessary, or unless I am close to them. I don't want to be different. I don't want people to have some preconceived notion of who I am, especially based on such a hot-button issue. When you live and grow up in the Midwest, it's frankly a matter of convenience to keep such a thing in the smallest circle of awareness as possible. Hell, at times it's a matter of safety, too. It's even a matter of job security for some. And looking over that thread, it's a matter of friendship, too. I know that there are those who will not be able to be as open with me as they were before reading this post. That makes me sad.
At the same time I think I know now what it means that I opened my wounds to the person who had so recently been facilitating them: I couldn't be understood until it was known where I was coming from. Of course, I'm not even sure now that I was understood, but it's plain that she has at least reconsidered some of my meanings. It is this realization that leads to the post now in front of you.
I'm here to tell you what I think of your opinions, and why I think they're so appalling. As succinctly as I can.
To those of you who would strip my future away from me:
Are you going to apologize to my people? Are you going to look them in the eye and say that they do not deserve the same rights as you have? Are you going to feel sorry for asking them to bear the burden of your beliefs, especially when you have so little evidence to support them? Each of us is born into realities not of our own choosing. Do you have any remorse at all for discriminating against this particular reality? Are you willing to say to me--not the internet personality that argues for human rights, but the Caleb Varns who works hard every day just like you do to try and accomplish something good in this world--are you willing to say to me that I do not have a place in your society? Can you admit that you and you alone are the cause for that discrimination?
And what does it say about your beliefs if you have any regrets for believing them?
Jon Boy:
I promised you that I would respond to your post, and I haven't forgotten that promise. When you pointed out that the Church's allowance of divorce doesn't necessarily denigrate the Church's reverence for marriage, you were absolutely correct. However, I do feel that the prominence of divorce, not in your own church specifically, but in the Church-at-large, tells a much different story. But I appreciate that you took the time to take one of my ideas and respond to it. I appreciate it more than you know, even if I was too busy to answer you yesterday.
Everyone:
Now I come to the place where this must end. I have spent the last of the energy I had to spare on hatrack. I'm going to leave because I need to spend some time away from this place. I need to spend some time away from the constant need to justify, not just my opinions, but my very identity.
Of course I will not be gone forever. No one really is, are they? Besides, I really do want to provide a Thanksgiving celebration for any hatracker that has no other place to go, so I will be coming back later to try and set that up. Also I committed to participating in twinky's original music contest, and I hope to follow through on that as well. But one thing I think I can say for sure is that I doubt I'm ever going to participate too heavily in serious discussions around here anymore. Others can do so much better than I, and the costs are far too great for the negligible differences I've made in the hearts of those whom I can only hope will one day think of me as a brother rather than a social deviant.
Most of you will know that, even given the length of this post, the true story is ten times more complicated than what I was able to communicate. And each story contains within it stories upon stories upon stories. Orson Scott Card once wrote that the truth is like an onion; layers upon layers of different meanings. Different realities, one might say. I feel that there's wisdom in this metaphor, and I hope that enough of you will keep peeling back the layers of our human story that perhaps, one day in the future, equality will not only be self-evident; it will be ubiquitous.
So long for now, and thanks for all the fish.
-cjv
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
((((((((Caleb)))))))))
Good luck... Don't forget to come back.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
If there were no desire to heal The damaged and broken met along This tedious path I've chosen here I certainly would've walked away by now.
- Tool, The Patient
I have so much more that I want to say, but I find myself sorely lacking in words.
Salaam aleik, friend Caleb.
(Peace be with you.)
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Caleb: I didn't know you are a homosexual.
I found out exactly 20 seconds ago as I read your post. I thought your vigourous defense of the issue and the subsequent bit was an academic discussion, concerning an issue that we both had thoughts and opinions about but were not invested in personally.
Did I miss something? Was I supposed to know? I didn't know. It was like discussing communism. An issue, but not a personal one.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
(((Keatsie)))
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Then I realized that she was showing remorse at her actions because I'm a homosexual.
I apologized because the academic discussion got out of hand. I was remorseful because, while I was teasing, you were taking this more seriously and it wasn't fair. I did not know it was not a purely acadmic discussion.
And I'm sorry. You're right - if I'd known, that would change everything.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*rereads her e-mails*
Damn.
I missed it.
I didn't apologize because you told me. I apologized because you said that I'd almost made you cry. Until I read that, I hadn't realized you were that upset about it.
Oh my stars. *quiet* I don't know what to do.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I do.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Unbelieveable Kat. Did you not even read the e-mail? Or am I misinterpreting what you just said? How could he have told you last night and you just found out "20 seconds ago?"
Of course, my other opinions are still in your Kasie vs. Kat thread.
Caleb, sweetie, you know I love you, anyway you are. You also realize that my jumping in to save you from being outed by Kasie makes me (who's met you in real life!) look like a complete idiot.
Yeah, right, who am I kidding? Like I don't make myself look like a dork on a daily basis without your help.
Wanna come over this weekend? Dinner? Cards? (Playing, not Kristine, Scott, Geoff or Em, though if in the area, I suppose they could come, too. )
Posted by Pixie (Member # 4043) on :
...For whatever it's worth, Caleb, you will be missed.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
That's just awesome. I preach civility, but Caleb has just modeled it better than I ever could.
I wish more of my people could act in the same way [I'm not talking about Hatrack people here -- Mormons in general]. I feel that too many have become too glib in their beliefs.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Oh God. Please don't let this happen again.
In college, I was part of a children's drama troupe. It was religiously based, and I was religious at the time. We were all very close. And then one of the guys came out, and he was ostracized before I ever heard word about it. I never even got the chance to say goodbye, to be a friend, to sit in silence with his sadness. Needless to say, it wasn't very long before I too left the group.
If this is what God wants, I'd rather go to Hell.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Ugh. Kat, I was typing that before you posted that last time. Sorry. Nevermind.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Oh my stars. *thinking about it more*
I can't believe I missed it. Talk about... this feels like a play. I'm not getting mad at Romeo and Juliet for stupid mistakes anymore.
I'm an idiot.
Posted by Mazakaar (Member # 5502) on :
Caleb, you are one of the most important people in my life. I love who you are! I know how much this has hurt you and it hurts me equally to feel your pain.
"Heroes can come and go, but you are my heart and soul. My love for you could heal the world, if I had the words."
Remember that brother.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
(((Caleb))) (((Katie)))
I want to respond to some things in your post, Caleb, but I'm going to take some time and think about it first. I just want to talk about some of the more tangential issues like divorce and how Christians are supposed to deal with their beliefs about homosexuality. Maybe I'll post later. Maybe I won't post at all.
But I'd like to say that I truly am sorry that I hurt and offended you, Caleb. You're obviously in pain, and I don't think there's anything I can do to make things better.
We'll be here waiting for you when you get back, Caleb.
[ August 08, 2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I knew, and it's precisely why I did not get involved in the discussion because my friend Caleb is important to me.
This may not be the place to say this, but I feel I must.
I am a Christian who believes that homosexual behavior is a sin. I will not change my view, because I am committed to my faith, and my faith is an integral part of me.
I will not apologize for my view, because I can't. It would be false, and a betrayal of my own core beliefs to pretend that I am ashamed of "how I must feel" on this issue.
Does that make sense?
I know many of you scoff at "hate the sin, love the sinner" and think no one can possibly do that. You're wrong. I've wrapped my arms around a woman who aborted a child, and told her I loved her, even though I felt she had committed a terrible sin. I've told homosexuals I am and would be their friend, and meant it.
Everyone of my friends is a sinner. I am a sinner. My children are sinners. We all are. If I can't love people who sin, then I cannot love.
The problem with having my view, is I can't express it without being called a bigot or a hate-mongerer. I'm sure some of you here will call me that.
If you do, remember my words here - I am a follower of Christ, and I will follow Him in all that I do. No matter how unpopular my opinions may be, they are still mine and as Caleb has said - I cannot change them without betraying myself and my faith and that I will not do. I would die for my faith, before I would abandon it or try to apologize for it.
It's a shame that good hearted, caring people like Caleb and kat and me can become so polarized on something. But asking kat or me to give up what we believe and say it's all right to honor and uphold something that our beliefs tell us is a sin is unfair. You can't tell her or me we should support homosexual marriage because it's the politically correct thing to do and expect that we will.
Likewise, much as it pains me (and I mean that, I've cried over that thread, and anguished over how to respond) I do, for the sake of my beliefs, have to take a stand that will hurt people I care about, namely Karl Ed and Caleb.
I can't apologize for what I believe. But I can hope and pray that in time, things will change. And I can hope and pray that people will accept it when I say I can love them and care for them, without agreeing with their lifestyle.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Thanks.
Thanks for your trust and your passion and your view on the world.
The internet is a wonderous place where people can roam around without being gay or straight, black or white, American or French or Man or Woman. We hide in our shells of annonimity and meet on only the mental planes.
Hatrack is a refuge from that annonimity. Here some many people have opened up those shells and dared to show bits of themselves we could never see otherwise.
Some of these have been very personal, very risky or very troubling. Whenever that happens I am moved that others are so brave and daring. Your's has been worthy of a Thanks.
Please come back soon. It won't be the same around here without you.
{edit to clarify. I realized my thread could be read that your coming out could be considered troubling. Sorry. Your coming out is personal and risky. Some of the other posts like this, involving abuse, etc, I found troubling}
[ August 08, 2003, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Dan_raven ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Go. Take some time to reflect. Etc. Come back soon.
The problem with these discussions (like so many before them) is that we never know when to quit. The basic premise that we are all good people here somehow seems to mean that we should all agree. And we can't.
I just got through reopening the same issues on that same thread, for example. Why? Because I saw something in someone else's post that just incensed me.
It happens. You got angry.
And, to my mental state right now, you got angry with good reason.
I also didn't realize you were gay. It makes no difference, other than I can understand how you might have a more vested interest in the discussion than most of the rest of us. (+/- 10%).
But the thing that worries me most is how it affects you. Because we never solve anything in these discussions and I figured everyone knew that by now. The real goal is sharing a different point of view so that, maybe, the other person won't just spout off pure nonsense the next time. It might still be nonsense, but it'll be less pure...
And that goes for all of us! Doesn't it?
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the Thanksgiving thing. It will be a welcome retreat from some stuff I'd rather not go into just now. But believe me, I can think of nothing more enjoyable than having a meal with some of my Hatrack friends.
But there is something close. And that's having discussions with my Hatrack friends. Even when I think they are harmfully wrong in their opinions.
I know you'll be back fairly soon. I hope you can find the place in yourself that curbs the anger before it starts. Because this nonsense will come up again and again. It just never stops.
So it requires those of us who can find a less angry path to choose it for ourselves.
I'm working on that too.
It doesn't mean I'm not angry. It just means I find a different way (sometimes) to get the message out about what I really think of the other person's opinion.
It's not possible to be 100% in control of ones emotions. But it is possible, sometimes, to use them to good effect.
You are one of my favorite Hatrackers.
((((Caleb))))
((((EVERYONE))))
((((myself))))
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
((((kat))) Don't feel like an idiot. If you didn't know, then you didn't know. It's done now.
(((caleb))) I've written and talked to you before on this issue, and I hoped you would continue to talk to me about it. You've chosen not to, and I can honestly understand. Whether you believe me or not I DO care very much about you.
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
Caleb- I think that the reason Kat's attitude toward you changed with your revelation because there is an intrinsically different feel to debating about a given group of people and debating with a given group. I think that there is no real logic to such a reaction, but fnonetheless it is no less real.
You and I have agreed on perhaps two things in all the time we have been at Hatrack, and those two were probably on fluff threads, but for all of that I still wouldn't like to see you leave Hatrack. I know what you mean about time away, though. I have been pretty much just a lurker for a good while until a recent interesting thread or two. I hope that your time away is good and I look forward to arguing some more with you in the future.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I was afraid when I saw the title that this was going to be a goodbye thread. And I’ve rarely in my life wanted so badly to be wrong.
Caleb, we haven’t interacted directly much, but from your posts I respect and admire you. I hope you come back. If we ever get the chance to become friends, I’d like someday to dance at your wedding. Or at least to send a card.
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
Hey Caleb,
I'm not sure how you'll take this coming from me, I'm not exactly an authority, and I don't want to sound belittling or anything -- but I'm really proud of you. And I really admire you. That took guts, man. God, your life takes guts. If you ever find your way to Washington, D.C., please, please look me up.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I just got the revelation. I got it when I read this thread.
Good hell. I'm glad I read the thread. I almost didn't.
I couldn't understand why he was still so upset at me, and why my apologizing was such a horrible event. Holy freaking crap.
I apologized because you said that I'd almost made you cry, and for whatever reason that was, that was when it moved beyond an academic discussion and I quit.
How did I miss that? Is it okay if I post the sentence?
quote:-----Original Message----- From: Kate Pilkington [mailto:katepilkington@yahoo.com] Sent: August 07, 2003 3:48 PM To: Varns, Caleb -- 7174 Subject: RE:
Caleb,
I've had an unbelievable sad day today. Maybe we could table the discussion for later.
Kat
"Varns, Caleb -- 7174" <caleb.varns@novastar1.com> wrote: Likewise. You've hurt my feelings more than you could possibly even understand, and it wasn't even necessary. I'm sitting at my office. I'm a 23 year old man. I feel like crying.
I apologize that I tend to lash out when someone hurts me.
We can table the discussion, sure. I'll still post, and I still don't forgive you. But time, as they say, heals wounds. Sometimes, though, time can make them worse. Like waiting to see what happens in Canada before admitting that I should have the same rights in the eyes of the law that you do.
-cjv
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:31:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kate Pilkington" <katepilkington@yahoo.com> | This is spam | Add to Address Book Subject: RE: To: "Varns, Caleb -- 7174" <caleb.varns@novastar1.com>
*hug* Caleb, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry I did that. I'm sorry I said anything that you hurt that badly. I am sorry. What can I do to fix it. I'm so sorry.
I do like you. I'm glad you're there. I can't believe I was such a bitch I hurt your feelings like that. I'm so sorry.
Now I see it.
I'd missed it. How did I miss that? I must have stopped reading for details.
My apology was because I'd made him want to cry. I couldn't figure out why, but maybe it was an equally bad day.
Caleb and I had had a discussion before where he'd taken me to task for something that I felt he'd completely misunderstood - but the subject didn't have anything personal to do with either of us. It was happening again. Maybe we could do that later?
Oh my stars.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Do you people not read what's written in front of you? I find this thread almost as disturbing as the one that inspired it. We seriously need to work on our communication skills.
Belle,
quote:If you didn't know, then you didn't know.
He told her. It's not like it was some big guessing game.
Jacare,
quote: I think that the reason Kat's attitude toward you changed with your revelation because there is an intrinsically different feel to debating about a given group of people and debating with a given group.
Kat didn't get the revelation. Caleb was mistaken in thinking that by writing it down and sending it to her, she had read it. So, when he originally made his post, he was under the impression that her attitude changed because of his "confession." Apparently, she just changed her attitude for no discernable reason.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I read once that when people are angry, there is less than 10% comprehension going on.
Still - what a thing to miss. Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Belle...is it okay if we ask you to never state your opinions openly in public?
Isn't that what gay people are being told to do about their very lifestyles? Is it any wonder some of them get angry about it?
Until you can hug a woman who's had an abortion and not care about the act, I'll still say you aren't quite meeting my criteria for what it means to "hate the sin and love the sinner."
I just keep coming back to the state of most Christian faiths in this country's history. Many of them actually found scriptural support for slavery. Almost all, until very recently, found scriptural support for a ban against mixed marriages.
Frankly, it seems to argue to me that scriptural arguments are impermenant and not to be trusted.
So, when someone says they have a scriptural basis for any key decision in life, my gut reaction is to think that's nice, now what basis do you have for your decision?
I've come to the point where I find most of it completely invalid. The parts I find valid are Jesus' message of love and his injunction against judging one another. Oh, and how we ought to follow the golden rule.
I realize there are statements in there about how all of scripture is valid and should be treated as one unified lesson. But I don't buy it. I think that scripture has been perverted over the centuries both in interpretation and in the actual words now carried forward with such scrupulous exactitude.
Given that, Belle and I have both consciously stayed out of threads where this kind of thing comes up. It's just too upsetting to deal with and we never get anywhere with it anyway.
And I respect Belle a great deal for that.
And when I say that I envy other people's faith, I mean it.
But that doesn't mean that I can be silent either. Maybe I should stick to my own personal decision to do that.
But when my sense of justice is offended by a position that is based solely on religion, I just get all het up and feel like the person making those claims is in need of some education.
Wrong-headed, I know.
But there it is.
It can't be helped any more than a person of faith can help thinking that the rest of us should understand what they mean, even if we don't agree with it.
But we don't.
And we never will.
So, I'll retreat once again into the fluff threads, where people seem to like me, and don't worry to much about my own prejudices and ill-conceived notions.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Kayla, come on. She didn't know. She admits she missed it. You're going to rake her over the coals because she didn't focus on one particular sentence?
I believe her. She says she didn't realize, and she feels terrible now. Why are you so insistent on browbeating her?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I read it once, and I didn't get it. I didn't reread them because I usually don't.
No wonder... that explains a lot. That explains why he didn't respond to my apology. That explains just about everything. Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
quote: Kat didn't get the revelation. Caleb was mistaken in thinking that by writing it down and sending it to her, she had read it. So, when he originally made his post, he was under the impression that her attitude changed because of his "confession." Apparently, she just changed her attitude for no discernable reason.
Kayla- it's that whole thing about others posting while you type thing. Despite where my post appeared I typed it when there was exactly one response to this thread.
At any rate, it is still true. Academic discussions are always free to go further afield than ones in which the participants have a more vested interest.
edit- for that matter, there are a half-dozen posts between yours and mine and there were none when I started typing.
[ August 08, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Jacare Sorridente ]
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Belle, I was brow beating you.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Do we have to turn this into another thread about whether gay marriage is right? I thought we already had at least one thread about that. Opening up that subject here is only going to hurt more feelings.
[ August 08, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!
I can't believe I missed that!!
You know, one of the factors that actually was a deciding factor in not applying for med school was that, through experience, I know that my judgement, comprehension, and general thinking go to hell when I'm tired. Good freaking thing I didn't.
If it helps at all, this is actually NOT the worst thing I've done when tired.
[ August 08, 2003, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Kat, we got it sweetie. You didn't see it. It's okay. You know now.
Not that it changes your postition at all, which was his point.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Jon Boy, what makes you think a thread would ever stay on topic? Not that this thread is off topic, but I just thought I'd ask.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:Belle...is it okay if we ask you to never state your opinions openly in public?
You'd ask me never to speak for my faith? My opinion is unpopular by your standards so I'm not allowed to say it out loud?
I thought about starting a thread yesterday with the post I put above. Why? Because through prayer and meditation I realized that I wasn't willing to stand up and speak what I believed, then my faith was shallow.
You don't want me to hate the sina nd love the sinner, Bob, you want me to turn my back on sin altogether. I can't. I could not tell that woman that what she did was okay. I could tell her that there is forgiveness and redemption in Christ.
*thinks*
Truthfully, and this is coming from the heart, I don't think I will be welcome at hatrack anymore. I can't sit in the background and pretend to have no opinion on things. I've spent too much time staying silent about my thought and beliefs because I didn't want to "rock the boat." I wanted to be accepted and liked here at hatrack.
But you've just proven what I was afraid of. If I do speak out for my beliefs, I won't be tolerated.
It's okay. Nothing more than I expected would happen. But if the choice is between compromising so I can stay with an online community I've come to care about and being true to my faith, there's no choice at all.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Holy freaking crap.
This makes a million dumb characters look plausible.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Kayla, I know that no thread will ever stay totally on-topic (with the exception of stuff like the Last Post thread). However, I think that talking about the rights and wrongs of homosexual marriage here of all places is going to cause a lot more harm than good. That's all. I was just trying to be respectful of everyone's feelings.
Belle and Bob: Knock if off, please. I think everyone's a little too emotionally wound-up to have such a discussion right now. Belle, of course you're still accepted here. No one is asking you to hide your beliefs.
Kat: Beating yourself up over it will only make things worse. Please don't do that to yourself.
[ August 08, 2003, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Not that it changes your postition at all, which was his point.
No, it doesn't.
It doesn't, and you aren't talking to someone who had everything turn out perfect and can't understand why anyone would do anything different, and you aren't talking to someone who's never had to give up something, and you aren't talking to someone who doesn't realize the consequences of her opinions.
It doesn't change that. But it changes in a million and five ways the way to say it.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Belle, you misunderstand the context of that sentance.
He wasn't telling you you shouldn't, he was saying that this is essentially what you are telling homosexuals to do.
In a way, your anger very much proves his point.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Belle, I think you missed his point. His point was that you want gays to stay in the closet. If that works for you, then by extention, should it be okay for someone to say to you, "hey Belle, your cool and all, but can you just keep your beliefs in the closet and not let anyone know about them? They are incredibly wrong. Don't get me wrong, we love you, we just believe your opinions are a sin."
[Edit: um, yeah, what Bob the Lawyer said. ]
[ August 08, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Kayla ]
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
Belle, try looking at it this way.
This forum has a universal ban against speaking ill of someone's religion. For most people, faith is an unshakeable part of themselves, one they hold very dear.
I think homosexuals feel the same way about their homosexuality that many do about their religion.
Maybe, in the spirit of acceptance and tolerance, we should treat homosexuality the same way we treat religion.
[ August 08, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Kasie H ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Caleb, I should have said something. I'm sorry. I stayed out of that thread for the reasons you put forth--because I didn't want to get the verbal crap kicked out of me. I should have defended you.
I've had conversations with Slash many times about the hypocrisies of Christianity. I hate that Christianity has us act towards homosexuals in such awful ways. That we're supposed to deny them unions and nuclear families. Screw that.
If you're a decent human being, you're a decent human being. If you don't hit kids or kick dogs and occasionally smile at a little ol' lady, then you're a decent sort. You try. How can a benevolent God send you to hell for being a decent, trying person? I don't think he can.
Anyway.
Caleb, I look forward to thanksgiving. I hope you can one day return.
And next time, I promise, I've got your back.
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
Belle, Caleb, Kayla, Bob and a lot of others-
Isn't it kind of a given that the opposition will, you know, oppose your views? That they will even be rather vehement sometimes? And that even sometimes a lot of people with an opposing viewpoint will say so at the same time?
It doesn't mean that your views aren't welcome, wanted whatever. It means that there happen to be a bunch of people who disagree with you. There are also almost certainly a fair few who agree. Lots of times they don't chime in because you said it better than they can. Caleb said that he felt like people were ganging up on him, yet when you look there were certainly a lot of folks throwing in their support- Karl, Bob, Tom, Synth just to name a few. I think that the reason it feels like ganging up is that the ideas that stick in your craw are the opposing ones. The agreeing posts don't tend to be really memorable unless that brought in something new.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Holy Crap! Bob Scopatz and mack are going to Caleb's for Thanksgiving dinner?!? Schnikes.
[ August 08, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Kayla ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Her immediate response was to shower me with apologies. It was like she suddenly understood why I was so upset, and she couldn't bear having said the things she said. At the same time, there was very little she could say other than 'I'm sorry', which I had already determined wasn't good enough. Then I realized that she was showing remorse at her actions because I'm a homosexual. Here again I'm being treated differently for reasons I cannot control. And even though I much preferred the apologetic kat to the venomous one I had come to know, it really bothered me. None of my opinions had changed. Nothing that I had said over the last two days became any truer or any more false as a result of my admission. And yet it made all the difference in the world for getting her to understand what I was saying.
That's the whole reason I don't come out to people unless it's necessary, or unless I am close to them. I don't want to be different. I don't want people to have some preconceived notion of who I am, especially based on such a hot-button issue. When you live and grow up in the Midwest, it's frankly a matter of convenience to keep such a thing in the smallest circle of awareness as possible. Hell, at times it's a matter of safety, too. It's even a matter of job security for some. And looking over that thread, it's a matter of friendship, too. I know that there are those who will not be able to be as open with me as they were before reading this post. That makes me sad.
At the same time I think I know now what it means that I opened my wounds to the person who had so recently been facilitating them: I couldn't be understood until it was known where I was coming from. Of course, I'm not even sure now that I was understood, but it's plain that she has at least reconsidered some of my meanings. It is this realization that leads to the post now in front of you.
Caleb, I don't know if you are still reading this, but I wasn't apologizing because of what you told me. I was apologizing because, to my horror, you were upset enough you wanted to cry.
This is... this is so awful it is almost Thurberic.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Belle, honey, don't you leave. Hatrack sorely needs your perspective, just as it needs Caleb's. I love Hatrack because it is a community where people who are very different from each other can come together and learn how to live in harmony. It helps us respect and care about people we meet in real life that may share aspects of our Hatrack friends. Thanks to Hatrack, I now have a soft spot in my heart for Mormons and D&D players and Republicans and Democrats and hawks and doves and gays and heteros and Christians and people of all flavors. I'm in a political struggle right now in my hometown, but I remember what I have learned from Hatrack when I deal with the people who disagree with me - civility, support for ideas, honesty, and care for the other person's position.
You are beloved. Your emotions are accepted and your convictions respected. There will always be passionate argument and disagreement, but I think there really is no question that everyone who chooses to call themself a Hatracker is important to this community.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
((((Belle)))) I agree with what you've said in this thread, and I'm glad you had the courage and the words to say it.
((((Kat)))) Please don't beat yourself up
((((Caleb)))) I've never really spoken to you, but you seem to need a hug; the one thing every one seems to agree on here is that you're the best, take the time you need, but please come back to us soon.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
*thwaps Belle*
That WASN'T WHAT HE MEANT!
He was giving an EXAMPLE!
The Bob we all know would never tell you something like that. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I was looking at the thread, I think I've figured something out. I wonder exactly how much comprehension actually takes place in the heated conversations at Hatrack. I'm thinking 10% is optimistic.
Belle was upset at Bob for telling her not to voice her opinion. He didn't say that - he said only the first sentence, and the next sentence took it back and put it as an example.
I don't think she saw that. She saw "you can't say your opinion" and the game was over and the score was called.
This also explains why I didn't get it. My comprehension turned off before I got there. The first sentence in the paragragh shut down the center.
[ August 08, 2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Godric (Member # 4587) on :
Aren't controversial opening lines supposed to encourage readers to pay attention further in? Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It doesn't work.
You'll never shock or insult someone into listening to you. Once it happens, it is like an emotional push in the water. You get pushed into freezing cold water or you get slapped in the face, you aren't trying to understand the person just pushed you in - you are trying not to drown, you throw up your hands. The conversation is over.
That's the thought behind Godwin's Law of the Internet - a discussion is over once Nazis are mentioned. Because the accusation is so henious, all events from thereon will be defensive - the original topic is lost.
[ August 08, 2003, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I completely agree, Kat. Oftentimes I read things I wonder why the two people in the discussion are so desperate to find something to take offence to. Are we lazy and it's easier to attack a person than they're arguments? Are we unsure of ourselves and therefore naturally defensive? Or did public education fail us all and we all don't read good no more?
Actually, now that I think about it, every second post I make here seems to be an apology for misreading something the other person said. Maybe I just want to seem smart so I go looking for fault in everyone else's posts? Maybe I just have to make the effort to read posts assuming the other person had the best of intentions and not the worst.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
And I think that's why Caleb was so freaked out by my apology. I thought I was speaking in a normal tone of voice, but because of the personal nature of the topic, it was like I was yelling into a stethoscope hooked up to his ears.
It was like the following: ---------------------- YOU ARE NEVER WORTH ANYTHING WHAT YOU WANT IS NOT WORTH ANYTHING ILL TAKE FROM YOU EVERYTHING YOUVE EVER THOUGHT WAS IMPORTANT YOURE HORRIBLE AND TAKE EVERYTHING HAVE EVERYTHING BE EVERYTHING AND LEAVE YOU WITH NOTHING AND IT IS COMPLETELY RIGHT
*deep breath*
Wanna a cookie? ----------------------
I am sorry. That's why I would have said things differently if I'd known. Because I would known I was yelling into a stethoscope.
[ August 08, 2003, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Even in his first sentence Bob did not tell Belle to not voice her opinions. He asked if it was okay to do so. It was a sentence where confusion could arise, but I would hope people would think for a second and realize Bob would not suggest someone not voice her opinions.
Posted by Godric (Member # 4587) on :
Hmmm...
I guess a lot of it has to do with how quickly or how easily a person's emotional response is triggered. If someone opens a post (or a book, or an article or whatever) with a controversial statement -- such as Bob's post -- I read the post carefully to see if they're being intentionally insulting or if they're making a valid, maybe important, point. Only then do I weigh my emotional response to what they've said.
It seems to me that most people (not just here, but generally speaking) let their initial emotional response point their direction in a discussion. And of course, once that switch has been thrown it's very difficult to continue in a level-headed manner.
I was just talking about this the other day with a friend of mine. He thinks I'm not emotional enough. I was saying how I didn't like getting into debates because I don't throw my emotion switch when most other people do, so while I'm still trying to make logical statements, they're usually ignored for simpler statements of "I'm right and you're wrong" and, of course, name calling. Then I just get frustrated.
I don't know. Of course, I can be horribly indecisive and I think that's at least partly due to the fact that I'll try to think of every angle I can in any debate before voicing my opinion.
In any case, and more to the subject at hand, this is for everyone involved:
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
quote:so while I'm still trying to make logical statements, they're usually ignored for simpler statements of "I'm right and you're wrong" and, of course, name calling.
Now see, my husband's response to this is, "Yes dear. You're completely right, dear. I was wrong." Of course, he has his fingers crossed behind his back and all. . . Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:I guess a lot of it has to do with how quickly or how easily a person's emotional response is triggered. If someone opens a post (or a book, or an article or whatever) with a controversial statement -- such as Bob's post -- I read the post carefully to see if they're being intentionally insulting or if they're making a valid, maybe important, point. Only then do I weigh my emotional response to what they've said.
But Bob wasn't talking to you.
There is a difference between "Dan told Sannah she was a poophead." and "Godric, you're an idiot." The first won't provoke that flight or fight reaction, but the second one will.
If it doesn't, you're the exception. But I doubt it. Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
This makes me so sad.
I come here for a lot of reasons, not least of which is as an escape from the tedium of my job. Much of what I post here is fluff; it's easy, it's fun. I have yet to feel real anger toward anyone, or to be truly offended. The most I've felt is annoyance. I suppose I maintain a certain level of emotional detachment, especially in serious discussions.
So I guess it surprises me a little how much sorrow I can feel when presented with a situation like this. So much pain, so much anger, it all feels so pointless. It seems like I've been asking this a lot recently, but can't we all just get along? Sometimes it seems like the answer is no, but why?
There isn't really a point to this ramble. This is what happens when you are a part of a real community. It's never all laughs and good times. Every relationship, every community is full of pain as well.
I'm sorry for rambling like this; I suppose it's just my way of working out my own feelings.
Caleb, I hardly know you, but I'm sorry that you're leaving, even if it isn't forever. I feel like so many people have had to take time off in the short time that I've been here. I understand it, but it makes me feel lonely; while you and the others are not here, you are not in my life, and so I feel a loss.
I hope you feel better soon.
Posted by Godric (Member # 4587) on :
quote: Godric, you're an idiot.
You're a foul, disgusting piece of work yourself...
In all seriousness, I've been called worse than an idiot to my face before and actually tried to understand why the other party felt the need to be so insulting before I let any anger I felt about it surface. Of course, trying to empathize with them only firmed their suspicions that I was indeed an asshole. And they may be right. Sometimes my ability to detach myself scares the living daylights out of me. I'm very much passive-aggresive and once in awhile I'll beat up some poor, innocent piece of junk for no good reason other than having a sudden surge of anger (last time, my old printer got the beat down).
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
I second saxon's post. I had been watching the gay marriage thread with horror, but it was nothing compared to the sadness that filled me with Caleb's leaving. A friend is in pain and my heart cries out. Sometimes we just don't see how attached we become to the people here because it is the forum that we think about -- the whole, which is very large. This really engrained in me that the parts of the whole really do mean a lot to me and I am touched by their lives.
Caleb, I was torn when you decided to discard the JohnKeats nick, and you probably didn't even know who I was at that point. *smile* I may be wrong in assuming that you do now. That is the really interesting thing about this site; you can learn and take to heart all the stories that people freely share and they may never know you are there in the shadows listening, but many are there.
I am devestated now to see you go. I know you need some time and I hope you find some healing, but there will always be those here who care about you and have found joy in your words.
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
I'm annoyed by the fact that courage is still a requirement for some people to admit they're gay. It's a disgustingly sad fact that there are still such prominent issues regarding discrimination, whether it's based on skin color, sexual orientation, or anything else.
This in America, supposedly the greatest of the free-thinking countries in the world.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Caleb, please don't go. I know if you just talk about it with Kat through e-mail some more, you'll see that it all boils down to the heat of the moment. It happens with everyone on this board at one time or another and I can swear to you that if you just give it time, your anger will pass.
Please, don't go.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Caleb,
I missed the entire other thread, except for the first few posts. I really thought that there were so many pages on the topic because it had gotten silly.
Anyway, I missed it, but I did not miss this thread.
I don't think you should leave, and here is why I think so.
You are out in this community now. By leaving, you take your voice from the community, and you hamper its ability to heal. You lose the love and support of people you have come to know well, who are ready and willing to readjust their behavior because of you. They cannot change how they feel and believe, but they can change how they act.
They are your friends, rocked by all the casual remarks they may have made about homosexuality, without realizing they were sending bolts through your heart. Give them a chance to heal with you.
"Sure as the sunrise It doesn't matter the shape of the hat We all fit together in a family picture And every wall's got room for that."(Tara Nevins)
Please stay part of the picture!
Liz
Posted by Jeffrey Getzin (Member # 1972) on :
Caleb,
It must have been rough on you hiding in fear as you've been doing: afraid that if people found out "what you are" that they'd condemn you.
You barely know me, so forgive me if I offer some advice. You can take it or leave it, as makes sense to you, but I thought I'd at least try to help.
My advice is this: be who you are. If you're gay, then you're gay. Don't be ashamed of who you are, don't be apologetic, and don't feel that you're less valuable than any other human being. And more importantly, don't even let anybody else try to convince you that you are.
I know that your particular faith and homosexuality are at violent odds, and that that's probably caused you a lot of misery. I'm an atheist, so take this advice for what it's worth, but perhaps your current faith isn't the right one for you.
I'm not saying you should be an atheist (though, 'natch, that seems the best pick for me), but I know there are plenty of Christian faiths that don't belittle homosexuals. Perhaps one of them is for you.
So, look in your heart at what you believe. Do you believe in a god who condemns people for being homosexual? Or do you believe in a god who loves everybody? Remember, I don't believe in a god at all, so whatever you believe is all equal in my eyes, but so many people tell me that they know God exists because they feel it to be true in their hearts: so what do you feel in your heart? Perhaps your god is a kind and loving god, after all, and looks at you with love and not disdain. What does your heart tell you?
You are a good person: I've been able to tell this during our very brief association. You deserve better than to live in shame and fear of who you are. I think you should accept who you are and associate with others who accept you for you are as well, rather than trying to hide among others who do not.
Also, remember this: nobody is liked by everybody. You show me a man loved by millions, and I'll show you a man who is hated by millions as well. I have people who love me, and I know people who hate me. The same goes for everyone I've ever met. So remember that you can't make everybody like you, and if you find someone who doesn't like or value you, just move on to the next person. Don't let him or her hide the truth from you that you are a good person and deserving of happiness.
Again, just the two cents of a wandering atheist. Take them for what they're worth to you.
Jeff
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Belle, you know I love you. We've settled our differences long ago -- or at least accommodated them. I should've run those first two sentences together instead of leaving that first out there so boldly.
Read the rest of that post, honey. Really! It's all about how you and I have mostly come to the same decision about staying out of such threads. And I respect you for that decision as much as I respect myself. Because I can't handle these threads without getting upset and sometimes lashing out.
Now, with that in mind, would you take a look at this:
quote:You don't want me to hate the sina nd love the sinner, Bob, you want me to turn my back on sin altogether. I can't. I could not tell that woman that what she did was okay. I could tell her that there is forgiveness and redemption in Christ.
Now, to me, you are keeping score. You are hugging her and telling her that God will forgive her. That's nice if she feels remorse and wants that forgiveness. If she doesn't, then, really, you aren't doing anything but using the situation as a backhanded way to tell her she screwed up...in God's eyes. And yours.
And what I mean by keeping score is this. When you can come back here and say that you have no idea how many women who've had an abortion that you have loved and comforted, then I'll believe that you love the sinner. As long as you are able to tell us about the time you expressed your love for someone even though she had an abortion, you're still keeping score. And that's not your job, unless my reading of Scripture is really seriously out of whack.
And that, my friend, is why I hate the phrase "love the sin, hate the sinner." Because every person who has ever said it to me has been keeping a secret tally of how many people that did THIS or how many did THAT they have counseled or hugged, or told about God's love for them.
And that means that you are still looking at that person as if their sin defined them. Doesn't it? "Oh yeah, she's the lady who had the abortion who I helped come to God."
That's my experience with it, anyway.
Ask yourself, do you remember who had an abortion and who didn't?
Come and tell me when you've forgotten and I'll believe you from then on.
Posted by EllenM (Member # 5447) on :
I put this in the calling all grownups thread, but I think it applies here just as much if not more.
quote:...It also never hurts to screw up and go to your maker and receive that sweet gift of forgiveness, because that’s what it is, is a gift. And if you’ve ever been forgiven, as you look around you, you can’t keep being judgmental.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
*very sad* I feel for you, Caleb. I went around on right wing forums arguing and debating with people who are far less civil about their beliefs than people here. It was exausting, draining and painful. But please come back when you are ready, Caleb...
I understand that the bible does have those verses against gayness, I've had them quoted at me by relatives whenever I bought up the issue, but please, realize that you are dealing with people. Complicated fragile people who kick themselves enough as it is and get kicked around by their families and former friends. Please look past faith and doctrine and look straight into the hearts of people... These ideas have destroyed so many lives and souls. Have cost so much damage... and it hurts.... It wears me out... I don't want to attack anyone, or destroy people's faith... I just want people to think about these ideas and not just say, "the bible says so." Posted by Jeffrey Getzin (Member # 1972) on :
The Bible also says it's ok to have slaves. Slavery, good; being gay, bad. Go figure. You can see why I'm not a big fan of bible-literalism. Learn from it if you like, but acknowledge that it's not a perfect book, and don't punish yourself if you don't match up in every detail to some of the archaic residues of this ancient book.
Jeff
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
(((((((((((((((Caleb Varns)))))))))))))))
Hobbes Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I might be wrong, but I definately had the impression during Belle's post that the woman was crying because she'd had an abortion. That makes it sort of hard for her to not care about the abortion, "Yes, dear, I love you, I'm sure everything will be fine. What is it that's wrong again?"
I don't think that Belle was talking about comforting someone because their dog was run over, who she just happened to know had an abortion.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
(((((((((((((((Caleb Varns)))))))))))))))
Hobbes Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
quote: Caleb, we haven’t interacted directly much, but from your posts I respect and admire you. I hope you come back. If we ever get the chance to become friends, I’d like someday to dance at your wedding. Or at least to send a card.
Yeah, that. Phrased much more eloquently than I could've, thanks, dkw.
Come back soon, man.
(((Caleb)))
[ August 09, 2003, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: Zotto! ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Caleb - Having completely missed the entire situation and only just read this thread, I only have these two things to say: First, . Second, considering how many times you've rebuffed my advances, you darned well better be gay.
That is all.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
I don't know what to say, other than ((Caleb)) ((Kat))
And Belle, Christ's teaching to hate the sin yet love the sinner may be his hardest. And his most important. Although I'm no longer christian, I do try to follow it. I almost never succeed. You seem like someone who does more than give it lip service, so Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:I might be wrong, but I definately had the impression during Belle's post that the woman was crying because she'd had an abortion. That makes it sort of hard for her to not care about the abortion, "Yes, dear, I love you, I'm sure everything will be fine. What is it that's wrong again?"
I don't think that Belle was talking about comforting someone because their dog was run over, who she just happened to know had an abortion.
As I said, if someone comes to you expressing remorse, that's an entirely different situation and I would expect ANY Christian -- any decent human being, for that matter, to offer comfort to the best of their ability.
Even the most rapid abortion foe would seem to be a heartless churl if they heaped scorn upon a woman who was feeling remorse and seeking solace.
I would never accuse Belle of anything like that. I don't know the situation, but I imagined that the woman did seek her out (or someone in the church) because she was feeling badly for her decision to abort a child.
And I know that Belle would be compassionate and loving in such a situation. I even believe that Belle would be compassionate and loving in a situation where a woman showed NO remorse. That's not the issue.
The issue is that people who hate the sin and love the sinner are, to me, a lot like people who keep a "life list" of birds they've spotted. Somewhere inside, there's a list of who they've ministered to and what wickedness that person had done. Perhaps those stories are useful in a congregation of their peers. Among other Christians, one might decide that those stories and tallies have a use in inspiring others to do likewise.
But out of that context, I think there's an aspect of it that belies the "love the sinner" part.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe part of forgiving each other's sins is NOT also forgetting them. But I don't think I'm wrong. First off, it isn't we who do the forgiving. It is God. So we have no business even making the judgement in the first place. Secondly, when God forgives and we don't forget, what does that say about us? I can see where we might have a hard time forgetting that so and so is a rapist or a thief -- the criminal behavior might resurface and there's nothing in Scripture that says we can't protect ourselves by being aware of other people's potential for wicked deeds.
But this is different. And, to me, it doesn't play as well outside the congregation.
That's all.
And I've set up a tough criterion for believing someone's claims on this score. Mainly because I've known too darn many self-righteous bastards who claim out of the side of their mouth, to love the sinner and hate the sin.
I'm not really accusing Belle of being a self-righteous person. I'm saying that I don't believe anyone's claims about loving the sinner and hating the sin. I may never, but if I found someone who simply doesn't care what the sin was and doesn't keep track of them, then I'm at least prepared to acknowledge that they've met my definition of it.
In reality, all they have to do is meet their own definition of it. Right?
And Belle knows that I have a lot of respect for her and her faith. And I always will. I don't agree with most of it, but that doesn't mean I can't respect it. Respecting it doesn't mean I can't challenge expressions of it on a BB either. Especially when the parts of it that I abhor the most are used in a post as an example.
I think my biggest mistake here was assuming that Belle and I had the same understanding of the accommodation we'd reached over the past couple of years.
Either that or I crossed a line with her and I really didn't mean to.
[ August 09, 2003, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Bob_Scopatz ]
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Oh, Caleb! For goodness sake, DO NOT LEAVE! Take a break, for as long as you need, but DO COME BACK! We love you here and need you.
Please forgive us! Forgive me for getting mad at you for no reason that time so long ago, because of my misunderstanding, when we were just becoming good friends. I've always regretted that and wished I could make it right. We've never been very close since then and I know that was why.
Forgive those who can't accept who you are. We are all of us limited in our understanding and all of us fail to accept others in ways we do not even see, oftentimes, just as all of us are not accepted for who we are by others. Sometimes even by our family or closest friends. That really hurts. Believe me I do know a little about that.
You've got the crash course, now. You've been put in the AP level class in forgiveness and acceptance and learning to love people despite their folly and errors and inability to see you as a person. That must mean your spirit is ready for that, and has been judged worthy. That must mean your spirit is at a far higher level than mine, and I honor you for it.
The greatest strength of all is the strength to be able to show weakness. All the great truths are paradoxical, it seems. <laughs>
I've not forgotten Hatrack, Inc. and I'm still at work on it. Hatrack, Inc. still needs you as much as ever. Come back to us.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
I just looked up for something totally different this favorite passage from the Bhagavad Gita, on the qualities of the wise soul. I measure myself against them and fall so short. To me it seems that you embody them ever so much more than I ever could.
quote:Humility means that one should not be anxious to have the satisfaction of being honored by others... Nonviolence means not to put others into distress... Tolerance means that one should be practiced to bear insult and dishonor from others... Simplicity meant that without diplomacy, one should be so straightforward that one can disclose the real truth even to an enemy... Steadiness means that one should be very determined to make personal progress... Self control means that one should not accept anything which is detrimental to the path of personal progress.
Don't leave us, for if you do, from whom will we learn these things?
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
How a man can avoid lusting after Tikas is beyond me, dude, but you know I've always liked you. You have one hell of a spine -- considering your background, it takes guts to "admit" your sexual preference.
No wonder I dig you.
If you're ever in LA, dude, you and Sandy and I have to get together for some cashews sometime.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:I am a Christian who believes that homosexual behavior is a sin. I will not change my view, because I am committed to my faith, and my faith is an integral part of me.
I will not apologize for my view, because I can't. It would be false, and a betrayal of my own core beliefs to pretend that I am ashamed of "how I must feel" on this issue.
Does that make sense?
I know many of you scoff at "hate the sin, love the sinner" and think no one can possibly do that. You're wrong. I've wrapped my arms around a woman who aborted a child, and told her I loved her, even though I felt she had committed a terrible sin. I've told homosexuals I am and would be their friend, and meant it.
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Belle...is it okay if we ask you to never state your opinions openly in public?
You'd ask me never to speak for my faith? My opinion is unpopular by your standards so I'm not allowed to say it out loud?
I thought about starting a thread yesterday with the post I put above. Why? Because through prayer and meditation I realized that I wasn't willing to stand up and speak what I believed, then my faith was shallow.
You don't want me to hate the sina nd love the sinner, Bob, you want me to turn my back on sin altogether. I can't. I could not tell that woman that what she did was okay. I could tell her that there is forgiveness and redemption in Christ.
*thinks*
Truthfully, and this is coming from the heart, I don't think I will be welcome at hatrack anymore. I can't sit in the background and pretend to have no opinion on things. I've spent too much time staying silent about my thought and beliefs because I didn't want to "rock the boat." I wanted to be accepted and liked here at hatrack.
But you've just proven what I was afraid of. If I do speak out for my beliefs, I won't be tolerated.
It's okay. Nothing more than I expected would happen. But if the choice is between compromising so I can stay with an online community I've come to care about and being true to my faith, there's no choice at all.
I love you get furious when someone asks you to deny what you are. Not that Bob was requesting that of you, but imagine what it's like for others who are LEGISLATED against by a self-righteous majority?
And, let's face it, you're among it. Paul's statement is the only semi-legitimate Biblical base against homosexuality that exists, and if your faith is so orthodox as to include that, I demand equal treatment for every other statement in the Bible.
I'm currently wearing a shirt that's made up of several fibers. I hope you're acknowledging my grievous sin, and loving me anyway. I'm planting hellish numbers of fields with different seeds (developed to tree toddlerhood, but still, different trees) -- have you asked God to forgive me for my sin? I've cut my hair, lain with women before marriage, and have a bad habit of not executing firstborn sons I see talk back to their parents.
Will you please forgive me my crimes?
Whether you'll openly acknowledge it or not, you ARE picking and choosing exceptionally sparse bits of the Bible to believe in. There are, what, three parts in the Bible that supposedly go against homosexuality -- the smited men in Sodom, Leviticus, and Paul's exceptionally brief statement in a letter that he doesn't want men to sleep with men.
If you're at all versed in the Bible you claim to believe in, you should already know the Bible's account of God smiting the Sodomites was probably more because the men wanted to rape the travelers (I forget the names) than because they wanted to sleep with other men. You should already know that Leviticus is so radical that it was rejected by the Council of Jerusalem for being too damn insane. And if you're willing to insist that a ridiculously small claim by Paul should be held as your Gospel, I DEMAND you acknowledge every other ridiculously small segment of the Bible that exists.
But you won't leave town when your time of the month comes around, will you? You won't sell your daughter into slavery, even though the Bible even quotes prices for you, will you?
It's insulting to my friends and my intellect if you expect me to believe that your insistence on the supposed sinfulness of a loving relationship between two committed partners is without a hint of bias -- unless, of course, you're pious enough to follow every law of the Bible to the letter. Are you?
Posted by Jeffrey Getzin (Member # 1972) on :
Remember the big todo when the "Under God" was removed from the Pledge of Allegiance? Oh, how the Christian majority jumped all over that. Never mind how insulting it was to us in the minority: "This is a Christian nation," they proclaimed, and treated atheists like we were child-molesters.
Yeah, well Iraq and Iran are Muslim nations, and I don't hear too many Americans singing their praises. I guess it's ok to be a religious nation when it's your religion.
Just like it's ok to speak your mind ... if you happen to represent the majority, that is.
Jeff
Posted by Jeffrey Getzin (Member # 1972) on :
quote: ...unless, of course, you're pious enough to follow every law of the Bible to the letter. Are you?
Including observing the Sabbath. I don't believe that was ever repealed.
Jeff
Posted by Godric (Member # 4587) on :
Bob:
quote:The issue is that people who hate the sin and love the sinner are, to me, a lot like people who keep a "life list" of birds they've spotted. Somewhere inside, there's a list of who they've ministered to and what wickedness that person had done. Perhaps those stories are useful in a congregation of their peers. Among other Christians, one might decide that those stories and tallies have a use in inspiring others to do likewise.
But out of that context, I think there's an aspect of it that belies the "love the sinner" part.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe part of forgiving each other's sins is NOT also forgetting them. But I don't think I'm wrong. First off, it isn't we who do the forgiving. It is God. So we have no business even making the judgement in the first place. Secondly, when God forgives and we don't forget, what does that say about us? I can see where we might have a hard time forgetting that so and so is a rapist or a thief -- the criminal behavior might resurface and there's nothing in Scripture that says we can't protect ourselves by being aware of other people's potential for wicked deeds.
But this is different. And, to me, it doesn't play as well outside the congregation.
That's all.
And I've set up a tough criterion for believing someone's claims on this score. Mainly because I've known too darn many self-righteous bastards who claim out of the side of their mouth, to love the sinner and hate the sin.
Very well said, Bob. I think I agree, as a Christian, with everything you point out here. I think "love the sinner and hate the sin" has become a Christian "catch phrase" that has lost its meaning.
Your point about it is God who does the forgiving is especially poignant, I think, because among Christians it is so often forgotten or not understood. If a non-believer commits a sin, be it having an abortion or stealing from the grocery store, it's not a personal attack on individual Christians. But I think many Christians view certain "sins" in that light. I'm pretty sure that Christianity teaches that all men are condemned by their own sins and that they are aware of it and that our purpose is to spread the gospel of Christ's sacrifice for our redemption as sinners. I don't see anywhere in the Bible or take the meaning that Christians ought to enforce any moral standards on society at large or nonbelievers. That just doesn't make sense, but I think that's exactly what a lot of Christians try to do.
Now, I think most of them are well-meaning, but they just haven't thought through their faith and what some of their actions imply. I have no qualms about being a Christian, but I do take issue more often than not with the church.
Lalo:
quote:And, let's face it, you're among it. Paul's statement is the only semi-legitimate Biblical base against homosexuality that exists, and if your faith is so orthodox as to include that, I demand equal treatment for every other statement in the Bible.
I'm currently wearing a shirt that's made up of several fibers. I hope you're acknowledging my grievous sin, and loving me anyway. I'm planting hellish numbers of fields with different seeds (developed to tree toddlerhood, but still, different trees) -- have you asked God to forgive me for my sin? I've cut my hair, lain with women before marriage, and have a bad habit of not executing firstborn sons I see talk back to their parents.
Will you please forgive me my crimes?
I can't speak for Belle believes, but I would like to point out that the Levitical laws were set forth to God's chosen people, not gentile Christians. And I think it's pretty clear that Jesus' and Paul's encouragement for Christians is to follow the spirit and not the letter of the law, anyway.
Just my two cents...
[ August 09, 2003, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Godric ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:Take care, lest thine path leadest thou down the slippery slope wherein thou dost picketh and chooseth those portions of Scripture that pleaseth thou most. The sign that thou has strayed from the path shall be when thou dost agreeth with Bob.
Book of Bob, 17:4-5
Posted by Godric (Member # 4587) on :
Ha! Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Caleb, I'm a big poopyhead. I really am.
Not only did I abandon the Gay Marriage thread long before it became so painful to you (I have been a stick-to-the-fluff poster for about a year, maybe longer) But I also missed this thread entirely. ENTIRELY
Seriously, people. I called Caleb on the phone yesterday and found out he'd left Hatrack.
Katharina, I have you beat in the "Oblivious" department. Geez.
And I knew. I knew Caleb was gay for almost as long as I have known him in person.
Caleb, you have to know I love you, kiddo. I want you to be happy, and if space and distance from Hatrack helps that (as it has for me) then more power to you.
Belle, I figure you won't see this, since I think you really have left Hatrack, too. I love you, too, even though I don't agree with you. I wish you'd return my calls. I miss you, and I want to help. Plus, I need to talk to you about WenchCon before we make any announcements.
This just makes me very sad.
To everyone who cares about Caleb, I talked to him and he's having a bit of a vacation and a good time. So don't be worried that he's all mopey, or anything.
Posted by Jeffrey Getzin (Member # 1972) on :
Olivet,
I'm very glad to hear it. Frankly, I think leaving here was the best thing he could do for himself at the moment. Please give him my regards.
Jeff
Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
It is very ironic that Kat said that " homosexuals would suffer for the greater good of society." I think they will, but not for the outcome that everyone expects. It is my sincerest hope that homosexuality and a few other things like birth control, abortion, medical advancements, etc., become the last holding grounds against the constrictual christian relgions. The difference now is that homosexuality is not alone anymore, it stands a chance against the miriad ranks of the faithful. Culture will wind up slowly pressing one way until either the faithful fade the modernists, or vica versa. I tend to think it will be the archaic faiths that fade out of usefullness. This is why I admire homosexuals, even though I am not one. They are social pioneers, implementing a change greater than they know.
[ August 23, 2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
Posted by Jaiden (Member # 2099) on :
Oh my...
quote:Caleb, we haven’t interacted directly much, but from your posts I respect and admire you. I hope you come back. If we ever get the chance to become friends, I’d like someday to dance at your wedding. Or at least to send a card.
(said much better then I could ever)
I don't really know you Calab, but from everything Pod/Ted has said and what I've read on hatrack, I've always thought you were a good guy. I hope I have the chance to read posts by you once again.
Thank you for making me rethink my stance on lurking- I've never considered that I could hurt people by not posting.
Take care, Jaids
[ August 23, 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Jaiden ]
Posted by Pod (Member # 941) on :
Well, since i don't know whether caleb is reading this or not, it might be moot to say these things. Still, i will say them anyway.
To caleb, i am sorry i stopped paying attention once the fight started to heat up in the previous thread. "I didn't know" is a weak excuse, particularly in a context like this. The fundamental problem unfortunately lies in the laziness that comes of debating what is, for me, a somewhat academic topic.
The reality of the arguing over homosexuality is that almost all those opposed to it are hetero (in fact, i've never once seen a non-hetero argue against homosexuality), and thus as a result, they are discussing a subject which to them has no tangible reality beyond second hand experiences (knowing people who are not hetero), or the "ick" factor that some claim (frankly, i don't see why people who find homosexual sex gross, dont' find heterosexual sex gross [and it certainly is not the case that hetero sex is never gross]).
I gave up arguing over this subject and others, because i, as someone who's interested in girls (particularly in the girl i am currently dating), have no traction with people who have only second hand experiences for which they possess some visceral or academic disapproval over (note inclusive or). As a result, because i can ultimately do nothing to change their minds, i stopped trying.
Thus i stand complict to their arguments, for not defending who you were, regardless of whether i knew it or not. All i can say is that i'm sorry, and that i made a mistake. The superficial characteristics of the people who you are romantically interested in don't matter to me personally, and while they shouldn't as a matter of philosophy they end up having an effect. I gave up arguing, because i thought it wasn't a big deal for me to not argue. What is plainly obvious now, is that i was wrong. It did matter to someone who matters to me, and i understand how you might feel let down.
I'm sorry bro. Catch you on the flip side.
Posted by ginette (Member # 852) on :
((((Caleb))))
Man, it must be really terrible to get involved in discussions like you have had. I am very, very sorry for you.
Posted by Jeffrey Getzin (Member # 1972) on :
I hope you mean you are sympathetic, not that you pity him.
Jeff
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I hope you saw from my comments on that thread that I agreed with you Caleb. In hindsight, my post about how I was amazed that the homosexual hatrackers could stay so calm seems rather ironic . You'd think I was in the know. In reality, I didn't know you were a homosexual Caleb, but I knew there were probably several gay hatrackers. For those of you most suprised by Caleb's "coming out", I can guarantee you that he's not the only one.
There are very few "academic issues". There are NONE when dealing with the lives of other people. This topic is about as far from it as you can get.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Caleb- This is the first time I've opened this thread. I didn't and haven't read the other thread. This one is extremely powerful all by itself, and I think it has changed more hearts than any academic debate could have done.
I believe that the only way to bridge the experience gap between the auto-response of what you've been taught and a different reality, is to go through the experience yourself, or love the face of the person who is going through the experience. For many here, you are that beloved person... that irreplaceable bridge. You have made a difference.
Bob- Though I'm definitely a theist, I believe in many of the same things you do. The way I read it, the Bible demands that I acknowledge that my brother is my equal. I have not been sent to judge him and I don't assume that he's got a better take on God's requirements of me than I do. My beliefs are very much of the "no one gets left behind" variety... but, I'm afraid I'm becoming more and more of a bigot.
I believe that a good person loves his neighbor and never seeks to do him physical or emotional harm or limit his ability to pursue his dreams. He judges a person's integrity by how closely the person's deeds follow their words and does not feel the need to judge a person's heart.
But as I say, I am getting more and more entrenched in this belief and I fear it will turn me into someone who will miss-out on moments I would have treasured.
Ironically, my son asked me on the drive from Chicago to SB how he was supposed to treat everyone nicely if he didn't like what they were saying. Mind you, he was talking about football. I told him that there are very few things important enough to lose a friendship over. He asked me to list those things, but I just told him he would know.
But I'm not sure if I know.
How do I walk the tight-rope and love the person even if I hate what he stands for.
What convinces me even more of my slip into bigot status is that I know in my heart I will continue to seek-out and embrace those who not just accept, but enjoy people for who they are - not who they might become . Yet I avoid those I consider "closed-minded". I will listen to their ideas, but get physically disgusted when it requires someone be excluded. So I exclude them from my life.
So no one gets left behind, but I sure don't want to sit on the bus next to them for the journey. Nice example I am, huh. Posted by Jeffrey Getzin (Member # 1972) on :
LadyDove,
We're all bigots. The incredibly-important first step is to recognize the bigotry in yourself and ask yourself, "how am I going to control my bigotry?"
Jeff
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
(((Caleb)))
You can add me to the list of people who is sorry she never responded to this thread or to the other one.
Like Jaiden, I never thought that I could hurt someone by not posting. I wish I had supported you.
I am glad that you are doing okay, and hope to see you back at Hatrack, whenever you feel ready to come back. I have always enjoyed your posts and opinions.
**Ela**
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Jeffrey, yes, that's what she means. You haven't been around much lately, so you missed it when Ginette was (all to briefly) posting prolifically, so I'll tell you a bit about her. Ginette's first language is not English, but she is one of the most sympathetic and caring people around.
I've been lurking or absent a lot lately myself, just because other demands have kept me away from Hatrack. But this is still a very special place to me. I will not purposely leave it, though I may be away from time to time.
Caleb, I didn't read the original thread beyond the first page because it didn't seem too serious, and because, as I have noted, I haven't been around much. I'm sorry that you felt like you were defending your point of view alone. (I wasn't even aware that your sexuality was a secret; I remember you mentioning it at least a year ago.) For what it's worth, I would like to say that I don't believe there is anything the least bit immoral about homosexuality, I am opposed to anti-sodomy laws, and I am in favor of expanding the current legal definition of marriage to open it up to homosexuals. I say this here simply so you know that you are not alone in these beliefs, and that there may be other reasons why not enough people came to your defense besides the ones you assume: that nobody agrees with you, or that nobody cares, or that we are afraid of backlash. Sorry I wasn't there when it would have meant more . . . .
Belle, you misread Bob's post.
Bob, I believe you when you say you don't believe Belle is sanctimonious or self-righteous. And like you, I have known plenty of religious people who were. But when you take a statement of hers and say, "lots of hypocrites say this," well, the inference is all to easy to make. I get the sense that you're making a general statement, because Belle's posts have put the topic into your mind. Your own posts make this clear to me, when you say:
quote: And I know that Belle would be compassionate and loving in such a situation. I even believe that Belle would be compassionate and loving in a situation where a woman showed NO remorse. That's not the issue.
The issue is that people who hate the sin and love the sinner are, to me, a lot like people who keep a "life list" of birds they've spotted. Somewhere inside, there's a list of who they've ministered to and what wickedness that person had done. Perhaps those stories are useful in a congregation of their peers. Among other Christians, one might decide that those stories and tallies have a use in inspiring others to do likewise.
But out of that context, I think there's an aspect of it that belies the "love the sinner" part.
You move from talking about Belle, whom we all know to be a compassionate and loving person, to talking about vague, unspecified "people who do this. . . ." I think you are talking about something you've seen in others that genuinely bugs you. I feel the exact same way about people who say "I forgive, but I can't forget." That forgiveness seems false to me then (in most cases). But you can't know whether or not Belle keeps such a "life list" in her heart, or the context in which she has comforted people, and I think you acknowledge this in your post.
The problem, though, is that it shoots to hell Belle's attempt to say, in essence, "I cannot change this belief of mine, but I want to get along amicably with you despite this, and to share with you all of the friendship that we would be capable of sharing outside of this one disagreement." I don't think Belle was posting to show off how forgiving she is, but rather to convince Caleb that it was possible for him to remain in this community where some people disagree with him on so fundamental a point. I can certainly see why it might not be, when the issue is this basic--Caleb's right to happiness, in essence--but this is not a perfect world, and people will not agree with you, even on the issues you hold most dear. Is it possible to get along, or even to be friends, anyway?
I think that's the spirit in which Belle's post was written. I don't think she was trying to debate the issue of homosexuality either, whereas I think you are. I don't think the two of you were carrying on the same conversation, although you addressed each other.
I don't think anything productive can come from continuing to shred her position in this thread, whether it be regarding homosexuality or the validity of Christian truisms. I think in a month or so, it would be very interesting to have a thread exploring whether or not most humans are truly capable of distinguishing between sinners and sins, or whether the majority of people who claim to are simply being sanctimonious. In another thread, where it could be made clear that you are not attacking Belle specifically, but merely talking about the way this phrase is most commonly used.
As to those who have, for the moment, left, I won't presume to tell you that you should come back because the rest of us will miss you. (If you can't see that, though, you are a dolt. ) If you need time, take it. I will miss you both terribly, especially you Belle, if only because I have interacted with you more, and I will fervently hope that you return to us soon.
I think both of you are guilty of ignoring all of the people who agree with you and seeing only the opposition. Looking at Papa Moose's thread about departed Hatrackers, it is easy to see that people from every political persuasion have left, often expressing dissatisfaction with the "fact" that Hatrack has swung too far away from their beliefs, and that they are in an ignored minority. Hatrack has become too liberal. Hatrack is too reactionary. Hogwash. It is a shame to see such an illustrious list of people be so utterly, foolishly, wrong. I have been guilty of this martyr complex myself. The closest I ever came to leaving was when a grumpy old-timer announced that I was a prime example of what's wrong with Hatrack. I got over my pique and quickly realized he didn't even come close to speaking for everyone, and I stuck around. But it's so human to only see those who disagree with you.
Many of us have said that Hatrack's strength is its diversity. Well, you can't have diversity without occasional friction. We all grow, though, from sticking around here and trying to communicate with those that disagree with us. When you leave, it is our loss because we lose a bit of that diversity that makes us special. But it is your loss too, because whether you run to some other forum where everybody agrees with you (and no discussions take place) or find less philosophically challenging outlets IRL, you too lose an opportunity to grow. And everybody has room for growth.
As far as feeling that there is no point to this diversity, because nobody ever changes his or her mind . . . . once again I say "Nonsense." Your most vocal opponent doesn't change his or her mind, so you feel your words have no effect. What about the lurkers who aren't posting? What about the people who aren't certain they possess the truth? What about the people in this forum who have never known anybody who was openly gay, to put a face on an "academic" issue and challenge their preconceptions? What about the people in this forum who have learned to rationalize anything to themselves, who might benefit from being challenged on issues of morality?
I am a very moderate person politically, not because I don't have strong feelings on issues, but because my strong feelings don't perfectly line up with those of either "camp." Sometimes I wonder if, in the places where I am liberal, I have become too wishy-washy, and have gone too far in my relativism. Sometimes, I wonder if, in the places where I am conservative, I am simply being narrow-minded because I want to stick to "truths" that are known and comfortable. I believe that growth occurs in the tension between these positions, because I am forced to consider all sides before I make my mind up. Perhaps this notion of "culture war" that Tom Davidson decries in another thread is symptomatic of the fact that most people in our society have worked to insulate themselves from contrary points of view, from threatening ideas.
I think the diversity that we truly do have here is a valuable asset in holding our culture together. It's a shame more people don't have a place like this to come be exposed to threatening ideas, like the thought that your scripture might, in fact, be wrong, or the thought that your actions might, in fact, be immoral.
[ August 24, 2003, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
Very well said, Icarus.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Caleb, sweetheart. *big hug
One way or another, it will get better eventually. Hopefully we here will still be a part of that for you.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
(CT you big goober, turn on your AIM or answer your email!)
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
(At work, thus no AIM. Checked email, had none, sent you one. )
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
I was asked to post about this. I am new, but please respect my ideas. I have seen a lot of people give homage to the idea of diversity. However when people hear an opinion they don't like they get angry. They get offended. This is a magnificent oppurtunity for people of all different walks, opinions etc. to meet and share ideas. There's just one condition, we've got to be able to do it in a non-personal way. Homosexuality is a hot issue. It is very contreversial. Homosexuals often get offended when someone doesn't support what they're doing. People do the same thing about Christianity. People here have called it a crutch, talk about how it promotes bigotry etc. My religion, is of the utmost importance to me. So am I gonna get all angry because someone is defaming something at my core? No. We have to be able to allow people their opinions. We can try to change them, we can pick apart arguments, we just have to remember to remain slightly dettached.
There's my two cents.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"However when people hear an opinion they don't like they get angry. They get offended."
Ryan, you've said previously that you've deliberately said things to tick people off -- that you KNEW the way you put something would get a reaction, and specifically did it to GET a reaction.
Are you saying that people should not respond in the way you expect to provocations you create?
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
I said in the "descolada theory for treating newbies " thread that I thought a newcomer gets the respect he gives. Tom has a good point about you trying to get a rise out of folks, at least in the following quotes from the FL/Jeb Bush/rape victim thread
quote:I really have trouble understanding the pro-infanticide point of view.-- Ryan Hart
Ryan, that was more than an insulting post for people who are pro-choice.--mackillian
I know. I'm trying to egg out a response.--RH
To your credit, you backed off some later in the thread. Labeling people who are pro-choice pro-infanticide is not an argument, just cheap and showy semantics. I'm quite sure there are pro-choice and anti-choice (you prefer pro-life? that's my point) people on this forum. I have only been here a few weeks longer than you, Ryan, but I've heard of bitter abortion threads before my time. I haven't looked them up because I don't plan to argue about abortion here.
If you do, why don't you first glance through some older abortion threads? You could even bring one to the front page if you have something to add to the discussion.
[edit:Also, Godric is my bud, but he had no right to tell you to shut up. This Iraq issue has been beaten to death here, with plenty of folks pro-war with Iraq, and others against it. Search for Iraq or WMD using the forum search engine and you'll probably pull up several Iraq war discussions.]
[ August 25, 2003, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
Tom: Your right in that case I was trying to be offensive. A mistake I will not repeat. That really wasn't what I was talking about. Inflammatory stuff (which is different than blatantly offensive stuff) should merely evoke a response, not an emotion.
[ August 25, 2003, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: Ryan Hart ]
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
An intelligent point should evoke a response. If the only you can get a response is to post something inflammatory you really must not have anything interesting to say.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
quote:Inflammatory stuff (which is different than blatantly offensive stuff) should merely evoke a response, not an emotion.
Only if you're Vulcan. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Oh my, I missed this thread until today. I'm so out of it that I didn't realize that Caleb Varns and John Keats were the same person. ((Caleb)) ((Kat)) ((Belle)) ((Bob))
One of the things that we forget here at Hatrack sometimes (though I guess we are better at remembering it than other forums) is that ALL of us are real people. We can talk about an atrocity academically, we can even be shocked in horror by them. But we forget that all of us in our day to day lives have major difficulties. Maybe this is the place where some come to forget their own difficulties. Sometimes we post about them but more times than not I bet we don't. I know I don't. We ignore them, and try to make everyone else believe that we are perfect, with no aches and pains and hurts like everyone else.
All of the people above have been going through taxing personal times that we already knew about or have since found out about. If Hatrack doesn't lighten the road, but makes the burden heavier, then by all means stay away. We will miss you though. Those of you who are on hiatus have often made the load lighter for the rest of us. We do you a disservice by making it heavier for you.
AJ
Posted by Pod (Member # 941) on :
Hart:
That's retarded.
In yet another bout of self-contradiction, you point out that homosexuality is a hot topic issue, and yet claim that when you say inflammitory things, people should remain calm.
Should i presume what you mean then, is that you'd like to insult and offend anyone you'd like with impunity?
I hardly think that other people will look favorably towards such a view point.
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. Second, considering how many times you've rebuffed my advances, you darned well better be gay.![[Hat]](graemlins/hat.gif)
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) If you need time, take it. I will miss you both terribly, especially you Belle, if only because I have interacted with you more, and I will fervently hope that you return to us soon.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
It is a shame to see such an illustrious list of people be so utterly, foolishly, wrong. I have been guilty of this martyr complex myself. The closest I ever came to leaving was when a grumpy old-timer announced that I was a prime example of what's wrong with Hatrack. I got over my pique and quickly realized he didn't even come close to speaking for everyone, and I stuck around. But it's so human to only see those who disagree with you.