A few years ago I would have never made that statement and I say it as a very heterosexual man. I've always considered myself a homophobe and I was proud of that fact. I made gay jokes, used all of the gay slang and made sure to point out all of the people whom I thought were gay.
I guess the change for me came when I found out that my brother in-law is gay (not really a surprise he was in the fine arts program at BYU Which he says is about 75% homosexual). Anyway he's a really decent guy, he's into videogames, he likes OSC,and he's a huge 49'ers fan.
What I would like to know is if anyone else has had an experience like this, and what it was like for you to get over your prejudices.
PS I do think homosexuality is morally wrong.
Posted by tonguetied&twisted (Member # 5159) on :
David Beckham's attractive?
I haven't had an experience such as yours, mainly because I've never really had a "problem" with homosexuality. So I'm not much help there, sorry.
However what I do find odd about your post is that you say you're "over" your prejudices, yet you find a need to make it clear that you still think homosexuality is wrong. Are you concerned that people will view you in a different light if you don't point this out? People will be prejudiced against you because you don't think homosexuality is wrong anymore?
I don't intend to start a debate with you over whether homosexuality is, in fact, right or wrong, because that just ends up or with people getting hurt. I'm just curious, is all. Posted by borr04 (Member # 733) on :
I simply meant that from a religious or "moral" aspect that it is wrong. It's not my place to judge and I'm not.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Why would homosexuality be wrong ? Just because the Bible say so, or is here a good reason ?
Posted by unohoo (Member # 5490) on :
quote: borr04 Member Member # 733
posted August 19, 2003 07:13 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I simply meant that from a religious or "moral" aspect that it is wrong. It's not my place to judge and I'm not.
Please don't confuse religion with morality. There are some religious groups who do not find homosexuality "wrong" (there is even a homosexual Bishop now ), just as some religious groups have found it "wrong" to be a member of some other group.
Furthermore, would you find it morally wrong to be a sex or of a race other than the one you are? Why would anyone choose to be a homosexual where in many cultures to be homosexual is to risk imprisonment, torture, or at best to be oustracized from the rest of society.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
"I like Beckham" "Of course...." "No, I really like Beckham." (surprised shock) "But you're Indian!"
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
...I do play one on TV.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
David Beckham is VERY attractive man.
I'm not surprised to hear that about the Fine Arts program at BYU. It's true about the USU program - which isn't nominally Mormon, but 80% of the students are (or were, as the case may be).
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
For what's it's worth, congratulations on your breakthough. I think it took something for you to admit that David Beckham is an attractive man. You aren't feeding the poor or anything, but the journey to a thousand miles and all of that.
________
quote: I've always considered myself a homophobe and I was proud of that fact. I made gay jokes, used all of the gay slang and made sure to point out all of the people whom I thought were gay.
Now do you understand that why, if I would have met you at this time in your life, I'd think you were a jackass? See, your moral problems with gay people are serious in nature and are taken from a more holy source. Do you understand now how it wasn't appropriate to degrade the source or the people themselves in the kind of manner that has nothing to do with your problem.
If it makes you feel any better, while I have no qualms with gay people I have moral issues with incredibly overweight people. I think it runs counter to basic human dignity. I know it's often a genetic disposition along with a combination of factors including suspicious lifestyles and poor rearing, but I think it's distasteful and not a little bit gross. I understand that life is extraordinarily cruel on the obese, but there is a small part of me that says that they aren't trying hard enough. I also worry about their influence on our children. Sound familiar?
The good news is that I put properties of the body second to those of the mind, so my appreciation of someone's intellect trumps my disdain of their girth or softness. I read a report about a few pills that may reduce the drive in large people to eat. The idea sounds to me as awful as surgery, but I don't know, my mind is starting to wander.
We all have issues, borr, but how many people deserve the treatment that you describe above?
There is a quote about how GW Bush joked about the death penalty. He also didn't win points with me in the last State of the Union, using a one liner to describe how the US forces have been killing those they perceive as being terrorists. Some problems are serious and deep-seeded and our actions rising from our antipathy should some how reflect that seriousness.
[ August 19, 2003, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I don't think that being "religious" or "moral" is any excuse to be hateful or cruel to anyone, regardless of what you believe about their behavior.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
If I molest your daughter because, well, I like molesting children, I don't think there is a problem with you being a little hateful. Don't worry about it, I have ten little girls locked in the basement knitting my socks, they say they love me, but I think they only say that when they want me to get off of them. Don't hate me for being me, though.
[ August 19, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I am surprised to hear that about BYU's fine arts program.
<--Goes to BYU and has taken fine arts classes.
Posted by borr04 (Member # 733) on :
No, I did not gay bash to anyone's face, It was more like someone would walk buy and they would be obviously gay and I'd say to my friends something like "holy faggot batman" or some other stupi thing.
I've always tried very hard not to let people over hear my rude comments.
Also I should have said from my religious standpoint that homosexuality is morally wrong. I didn't mean to lump all the religions together like that.
One more thing my brother-in-law also said that from his experiances that there is a lot of homosexual behavior going on on Mormon missions. Not just his mission, but alot of the men he dated while at BYU.
[ August 19, 2003, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: borr04 ]
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
borr04, I congratulate you for coming as far as you have. It worries me a bit that you sound like you're still proud of the way you used to be, which has always been considered by the church to be a sin. Thank goodness you are no longer living in the open sin of hating homosexuals, and jeering at them. I'm glad for that. I pray that you will find the will and strength to continue along your path of repentance.
You know how we are given at each age only as much as we are able to accept, and how we learn line by line and precept by precept? I believe the revelation will come (eventually, when we are ready) that homosexuals can be full members of the church and that homosexual marriage is valid. I believe gay people will hold the priesthood and gay couples will be sealed in our temples.
I think this is true because of two observations:
1) Gay people I have known didn't choose to be gay. They quite obviously just discovered, when they reached adolescence, to whom they were attracted, same as the rest of us did. How is gayness something you can sometimes tell just by talking to someone, otherwise? How is it that there are even some people who don't fall easily into one gender or another? People of whom you honestly can't even tell if they're male or female? Even people that doctors can't say which they are? Where do those people fall in the plan of salvation? God must have a plan for them. I know that He does. They are our brothers and sisters and they belong with us in our church, and in Zion.
2) Sin is something that blights people's lives. My observation of friends who are happily married homosexual couples is that their lives are not blighted by their love and marriage. They can't even commit to society to be married because we won't listen, but they do commit to each other. Their love is actually a strong and spiritual light in their lives. The blight part only comes from the ignorance and intolerance of others. THAT sin is a tremendous blight, quite obviously, on their lives and certainly on the lives of those who practice it, and by extension, on all of our lives as we are denied the positive contributions of people whose spirits are negatively affected by it.
[ August 19, 2003, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:2) Sin is something that blights people's lives. My observation of friends who are happily married homosexual couples is that their lives are not blighted by their love and marriage. They can't even commit to society to be married because we won't listen, but they do commit to each other. Their love is actually a strong and spiritual light in their lives. The blight part only comes from the ignorance and intolerance of others. THAT sin is a tremendous blight, quite obviously, on their lives and certainly on the lives of those who practice it, and by extension, on all of our lives as we are denied the positive contributions of people whose spirits are negatively affected by it.
Well said.
You know that when I say that, I mean that I've pasted it on to my notes and will shamelessly steal the sentiment, and more than a few words, in the near future. But it's for the greater good.
[ August 19, 2003, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
borr: I'd be careful about believing blanket statements like "lots of activity in Mormon missions". I mean, how would he know? And it's biased.
Very good about cutting out the crappy behavior.
I know what anne kate (ak) believes, and she has a right to her opinion. It's directly contrary to what the church says, though, so it's still just that.
[ August 19, 2003, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
But it's the kind of rebellion I can appreciate. Posted by Pod (Member # 941) on :
To the original post, and the very manner in which this thread was delivered:
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:No, I gay bashed to anyone's face, It was more like someone would walk buy and they would be obviously gay and I'd say to my friends something like "holy faggot batman"
I've always tried very hard not to let people over hear my rude comments.
Yeah, that's too bad.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote: One more thing my brother-in-law also said that there is a lot of homosexual behavior going on on Mormon missions of which he served.
Having been on a Mormon mission myself, I question the validity of this statement. Where did your brother-in-law serve? Is he inclined to label the sexuality of strangers as you seem to have been in the past? I can see why a certain type of man would think something like this. On my mission in Brazil, many missionaries fell easily into the closeness of Brazilian society and emulated them in touching the (same sex) person they were talking to. They would often sit in meetings with their arm on the back of their companion's chair and often put an arm around their shoulders in a brotherly "half-hug". None of this behavior was homosexual, but there were other missionaries who were very uncomfortable with this closeness and a couple of the more crass ones would make disparaging comments about some of us "going native" and such. I think this type of uncomfortability with closeness (a very big problem with many American men) drives them to label such activity as homosexual because then they can be more comfortable in their own inadequacy. So, I don't know your brother-in-law and have no idea how much this applies to him, but there are some people who are quick to see impropriety where none exists.
also:
quote: . . . Mormon missions of which he served. (italics mine).
I think I'm safe in assuming he only served one mission, so his experience is probably very limited. Even if he was correct in his observation of his own particular missionary companions, I'm sure it was the exception far more than the rule. Most of the missionaries I have known would be so consumed with the guilt of engaging in homosexual activity that they would be completely unable to continue their service. I know I would have at that time, and I am gay.
[ August 19, 2003, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: KarlEd ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I'm uncomfortable with how many men's posts are touching in this thread.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
While I, on the other hand, am perfectly comfortable with having your post snuggled so close to mine, Ralphie. (I hope that doesn't make me straight.) Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I'm in a KarlEd sandwich.
And now you're in a Ralphie sandwich. And if being in a Ralphie sandwich doesn't turn you straight then any lingering doubts anyone could possibly have had are now silenced for eternity.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Steal away, Irami! I'm always delighted if you find my words quotable.
My beliefs are different than most LDS, but just to make it clear, I'm not in rebellion against the church. I feel like I'm in the same position as many people were during the 70s, for instance, when blacks were denied the priesthood. I am in a position of waiting and praying for a revelation that I hope will come soon, just as soon as we are ready to hear it.
I actually talked it over at great length with my home teacher who is the second counselor of the bishopric, and he talked it over with the bishop, and they accept that this is my sincere belief and ruled that it's okay, it doesn't disqualify me from getting a temple recommend or anything.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Ralphie, how does it feel to be a litmus test for gayness?
(On a side note: I think of you often now. I'm dating a guy in a suburb south of Baltimore and near his house is a small ice cream and snow ball shop called "Rita's Sugar Shack". I keep wanting to sneak over one night and put up a sign that says "The Spankmistress is IN".
[ August 19, 2003, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: KarlEd ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Ahhhhhhhhhh!
That's AWESOME!
Oh, I would SO pay money to have you do it and send me a picture.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: If I molest your daughter because, well, I like molesting children, I don't think there is a problem with you being a little hateful. Don't worry about it, I have ten little girls locked in the basement knitting my socks, they say they love me, but I think they only say that when they want me to get off of them. Don't hate me for being me, though.
You're right, I would probably hate you for that. And you would have it coming. But that doesn't mean that it's better for anyone, least of all myself, to let myself burn up in hatred for you over something that I can't go back and change. Just because I would have hated you doesn't mean I should have. I should definitely do my best to get your rear put in jail though (along with the rest of ya).
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
It was Irami. You know, you can paste some of the text into the little "find (on this page)" thingy under Edit up there in your browser. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:On a side note: I think of you often now. I'm dating a guy in a suburb south of Baltimore and near his house is a small ice cream and snow ball shop called "Rita's Sugar Shack". I keep wanting to sneak over one night and put up a sign that says "The Spankmistress is IN".
I'm still laughing about this.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
ak: You are the coolest!
I agree wholeheartedly with what ak said.
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
**********************Edit***********************
I gave my word.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Don't worry, Ryan. Nobody is going to beg you to espouse your opines on this subject and make you go back on your word. Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Darn. Foiled by Ralphie twice in one night!
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
She stole your tinfoil hat, didn't she?
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
You know how much I need it!
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
mack's on a roll tonight.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Yet, I know for a fact, she prefers to be on bagels.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
mmmm....bagels.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I want chee-tos.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Still? Isn't there a vending machine?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
All I have is pennies.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Oh, that reminds me of the time an eight-yearold standing on a street corner said to me, "Hey lady, gotta dollah."
::muses and passes out quarters at the same time::
I want chocolate.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
All I have are pennies?
It has to be are. All is an noun of ambiguous number which is determined by the complement.
How embarassing for me.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
*points and laughs at Katie*
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Just make with the blinky doe eyes at a co-worker and see if they'll give you change in return for pennies. Used to work for me.
I had to look up Beckham, and I have to agree.
My first thought was, "Beckham? Is he some guy who bends things?" Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I work with all women, except my boss. And I was the only one in the office (check time stamp). It was so sad. I considered asking the 60-year-old security guard for change, but he already calls me Doll. *wrinkles nose*
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Can we please stop using the word pennies? Do you know how bad that word looks when people read too fast?!?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Time for an embarassing Katie story.
My dad has been bugging me to do something about the Germany/lawyer thing. Now, it is my opinion (based on the tone of voice and past experience) that he simply has no idea what to say to me, so comes up with things to tell me to do to get an excuse to call. So I've been talking to my lawyer, my uncle (who hooked me up), and Germany, and my dad has been getting third hand reports, which he then calls to inform me of.
That's fine. It is definitely better than before, so I'll take it. But this morning, after I posted to Hatrack about this morning's conversation with Shariati in Germany, I decided to inform my dad and I e-mailed him the link to the thread.
Yes, that link. To that thread. I'd forgotten about the segue on it about squicky German phrases and twinky's friends' slang. My dad has heard about Hatrack, but never really seen it, and that's the thread I send him.
*hides face in hands* Oh, good heavens. *grin* It is pretty funny, but maybe not helpful.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Glad I made that Gibberdeutsche thread instead of posting it there! Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote: Can we please stop using the word pennies? Do you know how bad that word looks when people read too fast?!?
Yeah? Well, it's worse for me 'cause the Portuguese work for "penis" while spelled the exact same way we spell it is actually pronounced exactly like we pronounce "pennies". This caused me some embarrassment when I was showing American coins to a Brazilian family on my mission.
Them: "What are those little copper ones called?" Me: "Oh, we call them 'pennies'" Them: <blush and/or look of shock followed by inexplicable "tee hee hee".>
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
I wonder if that is how penne got it's name. . . A little Italian Portugal tit for tat. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
With all this penis talk, it reminds me of one of the funniest anecdotes my friend Charis ever told me.
She grew up in a VERY conservative household and her father monitored their entertainment closely. She had a bunch of friends over and they were watching Real Genius when her father happened to walk through the room during the line, "Can you hammer a six inch spike through a board with your penis?" He was instantly offended, but said nothing until her friends left.
He cornered her in the kitchen and said, "Charis, don't you think the movie you watched today with your friends had some inappropriate language?"
Charis said, "Um... not really. I can't think what you're talking about."
"They used a few very inappropriate words in that movie. They used the word... ::whispers:: penis."
"Dad, penis is a very legitimate word. It's not that bad."
"Charis, I don't want that kind of language in this house, especially when you're entertaining guests!"
"DAD - Penis is NOT that bad of a word-"
At this point he was red in the face that she was arguing the appropriateness of the language so he finally yelled, "CHARIS! THERE WILL BE NO PENIS IN THIS HOUSE!!!"
She clamped her hand over her trembling mouth, nodded quickly and ran to her room to explode in laughter.
Posted by tonguetied&twisted (Member # 5159) on :
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Karl - Did you ever get me my Sugar Shack picture?
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
), just as some religious groups have found it "wrong" to be a member of some other group.![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
![[Monkeys]](graemlins/monkeys.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)