I'm helping my boss edit a flier she's sending out, and I need to know if there should be a comma before the abbreviation "etc." here:
"such as holding hands, staying with the group etc."
and also here:
"knives, poisonous substances etc."
(It's a flier about safety tips, just so you don't get too worried. )
Thanks!
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
I think you should use a comma.
Posted by Vána (Member # 3262) on :
And another one that I think is inappropriatly punctuated:
"you watch the children closely, it is the best way to avoid accidents."
Should that comma perhaps be a colon, or maybe a semicolon? I always had trouble with those.
Thanks again!
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Yes, there should be a comma. Etc. stands for "et cetera." "Et" means "and," so there should be a comma before the and in a series.
Actually, though, grr, now I think it is also proper usage NOT to put a comma beofer the "and" in a series, so it might be OK.
If that isn't an ambiguous answer, i don't know what is, but it is my two cents.
Posted by The Editor-in-Chief (Member # 5014) on :
Yes, you do need a comma.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Definitely use the comma. The etc. acts as the final member of the list:
"such as holding, staying with the group, [and other similar things/activities]."
etc. stands for the "and other similar things/activities."
Posted by Vána (Member # 3262) on :
Great. I was pretty sure about that one, but it's wonderful to have confirmation.
What about the second one? Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Yes, you would need a comma.
I don't like the phrase "et cetera", though. If there are other activities that the audience would know, then say "the person performed the [comforting?] activities." If the audience doesn't know them, then the phrase "et cetera" doesn't lend any new information.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Boy, attracted grammar geeks like moths to a flame, didn't it? Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
I'd add either "as" or "since" after the comma in the second one, but that's me. Assuming surrounding context, it's definitely a comma splice, and should be changed.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
"you watch the children closely, it is the best way to avoid accidents."
Is there something before "you watch"? It seems a little weird to start a sentence that way.
You should not use a comma, because you have two independent clauses. You can use a period, a semi-colon, or add a conjunction like "because".
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
The second one should most properly have a semi-colon in between the two clauses, as in:
"You watch the children closely; it is the best way to avoid accidents."
You could put a colon in there and not be incorrect (I think), but it might even be clearer to combine the two clauses:
Watching children closely is the best way to avoid accidents.
Thus, you avoid the pitfalls of the second-person you AND any possible punctuation slips. Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Megan, I am pretty sure it is accepted use now, certainly not in my day, to leave out the "pre-and" comma.
Posted by The Editor-in-Chief (Member # 5014) on :
Katharina's got a good point. The use of "etc." is generally frowned upon because it's a virtually useless word. I prefer omitting it whenever possible, though if you really want to keep it, you might consider changing it to something like "and so on," though that's still a pretty useless filler phrase.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Elizabeth, I think you're right, actually, but I was always taught that the last comma made for clearer writing. So, it wouldn't be incorrect to leave the comma out; it would just be clearer to leave it in. That's completely a matter of opinion, though.
Posted by Vána (Member # 3262) on :
Katharina, they're in a list of tips, and we don't have much room. The first one was in a tip about teaching children safety rules and the second was examples of dangerous items that need to be locked away. They're being sent to a specific audience, and our phone number is on the flier in case of questions. I think it'll be alright, and is probably the best solution given the circumstances (it's kind of a liability thing - we want to specify that there are, in fact, other dangerous items and other safety rules, but we can't list them all).
Ludosti, the beginning of the list is "If you're caring for children in your home, be sure:".
Papa Moose, I think putting "as" in there might be an effective solution. Thanks!
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
You watch the children closely. It is the best way to avoid accidents.
These are two different sentences, though I agree the first is a bit awkward.
A better solution, "The best way to avoid accidents is to watch the children closely."
If you want that "you" there for emphasizing who should be watching the children, try this. "The best way to avoid accidents is if you watch the children closely"
or "Watching the children closely is the best way you can avoid accidents."
Posted by The Editor-in-Chief (Member # 5014) on :
In AP (Associated Press) style, the final serial comma is omitted. I really don't know why. In other style guides (notably, Chicago), the final serial comma is always included to prevent ambiguity or misreading.
And yes, that second example is incorrect. Like everyone else said, it needs stronger punctuation (a semicolon, colon, or dash would work) or a conjunction. Rewriting it to make it one clause works quite nicely.
Posted by Vána (Member # 3262) on :
Yeah, it's not a good sentence, but it's not supposed to be a full sentence. The full sentence is "If you're caring for children in your home, be sure:" and then the rest of the items follow, with bullets in front of each.
I don't like making lists that way, but I'm just editing, not writing it. Posted by The Editor-in-Chief (Member # 5014) on :
I think this is what I'd do:
quote:If you're caring for children in your home, be sure
you watch the children closely—it is the best way to avoid accidents
Using a conjunction like "as" or "since" instead of the dash would work just as well. And you don't need the colon after "sure."
[ August 19, 2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: The Editor-in-Chief ]
Posted by Vána (Member # 3262) on :
I'm off to lunch now. Thanks for all the help! I may well be back with more questions later (I've got more fliers to edit!).
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Thank you, Editor in Chief. I still cringe when I see no comma before the end. My eighth grade English teacher had a lasting effect on me. My ninth grade English teacher thought of Strunk and White as the other two members of the Trinity.
Posted by The Editor-in-Chief (Member # 5014) on :
Beautiful! We could start a religion. Or at least a cult.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
didn't that already fail once for you?
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
This is a great example of the wonderfulness of Hatrack denizens. In the space of ten minutes eighteen helpful Hatrackers gave detailed, helpful responses (I am not counting mine, it was not. I also feel a bit rusty when it comes to grammar.).
Hatrack Rocks!
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Hatrack completely rocks. Hatrack's my secret weapon, my ace-in-the-hole, my access to a private think tank, and, most often in CT's wonderful words, my tribe. It's nice. Thanks. Posted by The Editor-in-Chief (Member # 5014) on :
Must you point out my every flaw, celia?
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Isn't that her job?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Oh. Right.
Carry on, then.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
oh, please. like i have the time to point out every flaw.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Yeah, there are quite a lot of them. But at least you'll point out the major ones, right?
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