OK, I've been pining for a new computer for some time now. Mine's not terribly slow (P3 600Mhz) but it doesn't have a DVD-ROM, or CD writer, and the graphics card just sucks. And I can get a new 2+ Ghz P4 for less than the cost of just buying a DVD-ROM, CD RW, and decent graphics card, not to mention saving myself the hassle of having to integrate new hardware into a system that is becoming a little dated. (Plus most of the new PCs come with the latest OS and other software, etc. etc.)
So, the PC I've been currently drooling over is an HP Pavilion 794C (P4 3.06 Ghz). It's got a Gig of RAM, 250Gig Hard drive, DVD RW/CD RW combo drive, a 128Mb GeForce4 MX440 graphics card w/TV Out, and one of those combo drives that takes 6 different kinds of removable media (i.e. SmartMedia, Memory Stick, etc). I've been haunting the local CompUSA and watching the price drop from $1899 to $1599. Now, I've found the same thing on PCmall.com for $1299 (refurbished). I've gone so far as to load it in the shopping cart and calculate shipping, etc., and it's all I can do to keep myself from hitting the checkout button.
Does anyone here have experience buying a "refurbished" PC? I've bought refurbished monitors, and DVD players, etc. and have never had a problem with them, but I've never bought anything as complex as a PC system, nor anything as expensive. For about $130 extra I can get a 2 year service plan (onsite if I'm w/i 50 miles of a service center) which I'm thinking might not be a bad idea.
And quite frankly, there's nothing in my life right now that I need this much computing power for, but there are tons of things I want to do that my current PC can't really handle well.
So, I'm leaving it to you Hatrack. Save me from myself or come push me over the edge!
[ August 21, 2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: KarlEd ]
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
Don't do it.
Posted by tonguetied&twisted (Member # 5159) on :
Oooh don't do it don't do it! ... I always do what I'm told.
Posted by tonguetied&twisted (Member # 5159) on :
Gosh darn it, beaten to the draw. Posted by cyruseh (Member # 1120) on :
my only objection is that its an HP, but other than that, go for it! I did it not too long ago, you'll be surprised at all the cool things you can do on it, especially if you have fast internet. Its a wonderful feeling when you walk in to the video game store, and every game on the shelf, you can install on your computer without worrying if you have enough of this or that to run it.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Yeah, cyruseh, as opposed to me who goes into the store and whines that I can't really play any of them.
(I have DSL so the internet thing is no prob.)
[ August 21, 2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: KarlEd ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
HP Pavilions. . . ergh.
I've got one at home, and it does okay for what I use it for. (800 MgHz, PCI motherboard. . . don't use it for much. )
But that's it-- it's okay.
I hear that you can build a box for less than buying a premade piece. Thing is, the HP comes with a 1 year warranty, which is nice (I had to use mine because the CD drive burned out-- got my whole computer replaced. ) and many stores offer up to a 3 year warranty.
That's good to have.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I'm in a similar situation, only with Apple's new Power Mac systems.
Mmmmmmmm. Sleek, sexy case. Massive memory bandwidth. Large amounts of processing horsepower.
I need to wipe my chin.
I dunno what to tell you, man. I'd be seriously tempted.
Posted by cyruseh (Member # 1120) on :
a perfectly good PC thread, and someone had to ruin it by mentioning a mac! ugh!
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
Sounds like a really sweet system, though they are putting in a pretty wussy video card for the bucks you would be shelling out.
If I have time later on I'll price out a similar system using an AMD processor on www.newegg.com If you are confortable with putting it together yourself you should be able to get a really nice system for cheaper.
Posted by Magson (Member # 2300) on :
GF4 MX 440 is a "renamed" GF2 with a couple of additional features -- IOW, not a good video card, especially for a system with 1 GB of RAM. If you must have an older card go for a GF3 Ti500. Costs the same or less than the MX and is actually a much better card.
Or get the GeForce FX 5600 Ultra. . . .Or a Radeon 9800. Those are both excellent video cards, at least as per the reviews. I actually am still using my GF3Ti200 personally, which is over a year and a half old and is ALSO a better card than the GF4 MX.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Karl, what's the warranty on the refurb? That's usually the main concern on a used box.
Posted by asQmh (Member # 4590) on :
twinky:
I know what you mean, only I'm still lusting after the 12" powerbooks. . .
*sigh*
I think I'm going to relent, though, and get an 800MHz iBook.
Q.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Tom, I'm pretty sure the warranty is 90 days. For $130 they offer an extended onsite warranty (onsite if you're within 50 miles of an "authorized service center").
Jacare, I probably could build a system myself, but my interest level in that isn't really high. I'm more of an out-of-the-box guy. To be honest, I could have done a lot to upgrade the box I have over the years, but tinkering inside a computer is only a step above tinkering with my car in terms of tedium.
When you say the graphics card is "wussy", what do you mean? Or rather, what would that mean to me? I do use my computer for graphic intensive things like digital art and photography, but my current graphics card handles most of that fine. What it doesn't handle is practically any new game. And it's not that they just run slowly. They won't even launch. The error comes up that the graphics card is not supported for the game or the game is unable to run because the card doesn't have some 3D related functionality or something. (I'm really displaying my ignorance here, I know.) So when you say "wussy", what does that mean in terms of limited performance? What will I not be able to do?
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
So. . . will you be selling your old computer? Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Karl, this sounds like a good deal -- although HP reliability is pretty poor, and I'd be nervous with such a limited warranty. If you find that the graphics card doesn't meet your needs (something that's highly unlikely, given that your current one apparently DID for years), you should be able to swap it out (provided that the machine has an AGP slot).
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Actually, it would probably cost more to ship it than it is worth. And you can already get a system 2-3 times faster/better than mine for around $600-700 or so if you look around online (some even with a monitor). I was thinking I'd probably just make my old system a web-server until it dies.
But hey, I'm always willing to entertain offers. Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote: "my only objection is that its an HP," - cyruseh
quote: "HP Pavilions. . . ergh." - Scott R
quote: "although HP reliability is pretty poor," - Tom
I had heard HP was unreliable a few years ago, but I had been hearing that this has changed. I have spoken with several friends who own HPs and have had no complaints. (And some of these are computer professionals, too.) Is HP really inferior to other brands? What brands would you recommend?
I've been looking around for some time, and the thing that has kept me coming back to HP is that their systems seem to be over-all less expensive for the same power and often more bells-and-whistles than, say, Dell or Sony or Gateway. So are they cheaper 'cuz they suck? or are they cheaper 'cuz they're fighting a bad rep?
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Go to mwave.com. Get an AMD system (which will save you 100+ bucks to start). Build up with your own component (and namebrand!) parts, have them test it, and warranty it. Then, if you need upgrades, you don't need to buy a whole new system. Heck, with the mwave system, you can keep your current monitor. Plus, with the premium parts, you ensure decent and constant driver updates, plus fewer incompatibility issues.
Retailers are evil. Truly.
-Bok
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I got a computer from internetishop.com that was quite cheap, about... 600 dollars without the monitor. It has: An anthon 800mhz processor DVD player CDWR 40 gigs of space 356 mbs of RAM ect. They've got some good prices at that place, they build systems from the ground up. My computer only gave me trouble back in April because of the Great Crash that happened when I installed win 2000 but other than that, it's been a good buy.
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
Karl- when I say that the graphics card is wussy for the money what I mean is this: Nvidia was playing kind of tricky. They introduced their new line of Geforce4 cards with some really great performers like their Ti4200, and then they also called a line of cheaper cards "GeForce4" (MX 440 etc) when they are actually slightly souped up GeForce2's.
What this means to you: probably not much if you don't do much gaming. I don't know how graphics cards handle things like graphic design programs etc since the only program in that vein that I use is paint shop pro and it works just fine on fairly low-end video cards. However, for the price you are paying you are getting all of the goodies but an el cheapo video card which doesn't seem right.
Posted by Traveler (Member # 3615) on :
I would be very concerned about buying any 'refurbished' system. My experience is that many systems that have been returned are lemons and even after 'refurbishing' they continue to have issues.
I'd spend the extra money and get something new. One other thing to note when buying a new system is the power supply. Many companies have not been including the type of power supply in the specs. This is important if you are a gamer since many of the new gfx cards require a 350W or higher power supply.
-Traveler
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote: What this means to you: probably not much if you don't do much gaming
And that's just it. I don't do much gaming because my current video card really sucks. But I would like to do some gaming. How much, exactly, I won't know until I get into some. What problems with gaming would I be likely to encounter with the card above? What types of games? (I mean, I know lots of people who play lots of games on the PC and I know most of them don't have Top-o-the-line systems - better than mine, yes, but not top-o-the-line.)
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
It depends on what kind of games you play. If you play FPS games, that card ain't gonna cut the mustard. It'll probably handle any RTS game out there right now, although not at the top resolutions.
So, what do you want to play?
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
OK, this thread is making me feel dumber and dumber. What is "FPS" and what is "RTS"?
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Sorry, First Person Shooter and Real Time Strategy.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Well, I've heard good things about "Neverwinter Nights", I have a friend who plays "DiabloII". I really like to play SimCity, but SimCity4 has to use scaled down graphics on my current card, and even at that it doesn't handle the graphics well.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
The system requirements for NWN aren't all that steep, I don't think. Really, the only potential sticking point is the GF4MX, which can always be upgraded later if you can't get a better card with the system.
Basically, if you're looking to play Doom 3 or Deus Ex 2, the GF4MX isn't going to be happy unless you turn down the graphics quality and resolution as far as it'll go.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
What are some game titles that I'd have problems with if I had the graphics card mentioned above?
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
OK, here is an option for an AMD system from Newegg:
2X 512MB Corsair PC3200 DDR RAM (=1GB but 2X 512 gives better performance on nForce2 board) 186$
250GB Western Digital HDD $250
DVD R/RW 185$
Foxconn case with 400w power supply $44
Windows XP professional 143$
Grand total: $1026
If you wanted a better video card you could get a different motherboard like one of the nice EPOX ones for about 100$ and then get either a Geforce4 Ti4200 or a Radeon 9600 or a Geforce 5200ultra for 120-150$ depending on which one you choose. I don't know if you need a new monitor, but if so you could tack a 19" monitor on for about $160, or use the money you saved over the HP price and buy a flatscreen.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Except, twinky, systems from suppliers like HP do nasty gluey things to their motherboards, making expansion tedious and difficult, if not downright impossible. "Just updating the card", where the card is likely an integrated deal, is a pain.
-Bok
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
You mean there's no AGP slot? If there's no AGP slot, don't buy the system.
Quad Erat Demonstratum.
The problem with your price-out, Bok, is that he then has to build it himself...
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
Twink- I think you were talking to me.
As I said, it all depends if he is confortable building it himself. There are many websites with illustrated step-by-step instructions, and let's face it, building a computer is really only an exercise in "insert tab A into slot B" where most of the connectors, slots etc are idiot-proof.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
>_<
I was indeed talking to you, Jacare. Sorry. Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Jacare, does that include assembly?
-Bok
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
Bok- nah, he'd have to build it himself.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
And mwave will assemble and test your system for 80 bucks... So there, twinky
-Bok
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Jacare, thanks for the info. One problem with building my own system is that when it comes to the guts of a computer, I really don't know one brand from another. For instance, how does a "Barton 2500+" compare with a P4, and at what speed? How do you know what motherboards go with what other hardware, etc? I can put a video card into a system, and I can probably add memory or replace a hard drive, but that's about the limit of my experience.
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
Karl- a couple of things to consider:
You will probably see absolutely no difference in processor speeds above about 2GHz. The limiting factor on computer speeds these days are the bus speeds, (memory bus and system bus). SO as long as you get a processor with a bus speed of 333MHz then you probably can save a few bucks by getting a bit slower processor than the leading-edge 3+GHz.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Here's mwave:
ASSEMBLY & TESTING Assemble your selected configuration Load necessary software/drivers Thoroughly test system & check compatibility No REFUNDS on assembly/testing Please allow 5-7 working days for assembly --$79.99 Microsoft Windows XP Home (OEM) --$78.00 ATHLON XP (OEM) & DDR 333 BUNDLES (EPOX 8KRA2+; AMD XP 2600+(333Mhz); KINGSTON 1GB DDR333(512MB X 2); NO TESTING) --$359.41 ENLIGHT 4102C (BLACK) MIDDLE TOWER W/300W ATX POWER SUPPLY & FRONT USB CONNECTOR 4x5.25" 2x3.5" 1x3.5"(hidden) & 80mm CASE FAN x 1 --$45.00 GAINWARD/CARDEXPERT ULTRA650-8X 128MB GEFORCE4 TI-4200 DDR 8XAGP W/TV & DVI --$125.00 WD 250GB WD2500JB EIDE ULTRA-ATA/66-100 8.9MS 7200RPM 8MB BUFFER (Bare drive w/3-yr warranty --$249.00 HP 16X/10X/32X + 4X/2.4X/8X DVD300XI INTERNAL DVD+RW/CDRW (*While Supplies Last!) --$165.94 Sub Total $1,102.34
I believe you can add a warranty to it.
Not much better (a couple hundred bucks), except it's all new, so you get the various compnent manufacturer warranties, in a system that you can just upgrade piecemeal in the future. You may want a different case, or one with a bigger power supply, in which case you may run a bit higher. But with this system, you get that HP combo DVD/CD+RW drive.
-Bok
PS- Did 3-day shipping to Baltimore (ZIP: 21218, my old Charles St. ZIP ),thanks to their handy shipping calculator, and got $49.36
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
The AMD chips are clocked quite a bit slower than Pentiums, but are more efficient, particularly at Floating Point operations. In every day use, a 3000+ AMD chip is equivalent to a Pentium 4 3GHZ. But the difference between a 2.6 GHz (or 2600+) and 3GHz system, in current every day use is negligible, while the price difference is 80 bucks!
BTW, the AMD system of chip naming is officially because their XP ####+ chips are supposed to be equal to their older Athlon chips clocked to the #### MHz... It just so happens it works well as an Intel comparison point.
-Bok
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
My HP Pavilion laptop had to be serviced twice in the first year I had it because four keys on the keyboard froze. The speaker rattles and the service department tells me that’s “a normal sound.” The battery won’t hold its charge. It locks up/crashes at least once a day, but I’m not sure if that’s because it’s an HP or because it’s running Windows ME.
When it’s time to replace it, I will NOT be buying another HP. Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
The laptop battery issue is common in all laptops, dkw. My current work laptop, a ThinkPad, is down to a little over an hour on a charge, before I need to plug it in. At first, it was 3 or more hours. It has to do with the laptop battery technology. You could probably solve it by buying a new battery (fairly expensive), and charging the battery up overnight, while NOT using the laptop.
-Bok
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
quote:Jacare, thanks for the info. One problem with building my own system is that when it comes to the guts of a computer, I really don't know one brand from another. For instance, how does a "Barton 2500+" compare with a P4, and at what speed? How do you know what motherboards go with what other hardware, etc? I can put a video card into a system, and I can probably add memory or replace a hard drive, but that's about the limit of my experience.
AMD instituted its "XX00+" system of processor naming just so you can compare to Pentium processors. The Barton 2500+ then has equivalent performance to a pentium 4 2.5GHz (or 2500MHz). The way you know what motherboard goes with what is pretty simple. The motherboard has a socket type which describes whether it supports Pentium or AMD processors. Socket A motherboards are AMD processor boards. Most places you can buy from will also have information such as "Supports AMD Athlon processors" etc.
As far as harware integration, that is pretty simple too. There are specific standard slots and connectors for each hardware piece. For example, the video card (almost always) goes into the AGP slot. There is only one inside the computer. The PCI slots are for things like sound cards, modems , LAN cards etc, but nowadays these functions are mostly integrated into the motherboard. Hard drives and DVD drives etc generally have a couple of connectors which are easy to figure out. There is a four pin power connector which connects to your power supply and then there is an IDE connector which connects to a ribbon cable to the motherboard, or even easier, there are external hard drives which connect to IEEE1394 or USB2.0 ports.
All in all it is fairly easy to build a computer. The motherboard instruction book will tell you what to connect, in what order etc. Or you can get info in places like this:
I bought a refurbished PC once and over the course of one year I had replaced (under warranty):
2 Mother Boards 2 Modems 1 Keyboard 1 set of USB cables
Basically, everything but the CD-ROM drive and the floppy disk drive, since the sound card and video card were integrated onto the mother board.
Since then, I have "Frankensteined" this computer so much that I replaced nearly everything, and it works fine.
BTW it is an old Compaq PII400MHz 8440 in black.
Since then I have either built my own, or bought from Dell and have never had to make another service call. I know Dell is far from perfect, but after much research, including a friend who works for IBM, I bought Dell and am completely satisfied.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Karl, I mean this in the nicest possible way, but if you're getting a new computer, policy requires that I hate you. I've been wanting a new computer for quite some time now (your computer is faster than mine), and I will probably have to continue wanting a new computer until my current one (which takes so long to boot up that I only turn it on once every month or so) biodegrades.
Sorry, man, but rules are rules.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Jacare, you are slightly off on the rationale for the AMD XX00+ scheme. I was at the second AMD road show for the XP, and actually won one of the 1500+ bundles they had And they were VERY incessant and clear that the comparison was to older AMD chips, NOT Pentium chips (funny how it worked out though, eh?).
-Bok
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
Bok- fair enough. Either way the fact still remains that a 2500+ is at least as good as a 2.5GHz pentium.
Posted by BookWyrm (Member # 2192) on :
Just a word of warning. Hp's Customer Service has been shipped to India so if you need to call support..... good luck!!!!!!
HP's are kinda a pig in a poke to me. You can get a good one or you'll end up with headaches. Better than Gateways but not by much. Avoid Micro Towers. The Power Supply tends to go out every 6 months. Very proprietary systems similar to Compaqs (Which was bought out by HP BTW) so a nit harder to upgrade than some other 'out of the box' systems. My GF's HP tended to crash a lot and at one time was down for almost 2 years until I got my hands on it. Mostly that was due to Win98 though I 'think'. In some ways HP's are solid but in other ways they really suck majorly. They tend to use outdated periphials such as modems, off brand sound cards, antiquated NIC cards, (GF's had one that was so old it needed the adaptor in order to hook the NIC to the Cable modem.... and it was NEW 4 years ago, and that NIC in her computer hadn't been used in a number of years).....
If it were me, I'd go with another brand of off the shelf models or find a mom and pop store to build me a system. For the price of shelf models you can have a better one built IMO.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Well, thanks everyone. My head is swimming now and I don't know what I'll do about getting a new computer, but the original purpose of this thead has been fulfilled. I will remain $1200 richer for the time being.
Posted by Magson (Member # 2300) on :
There's a really annoying guy who has a local shop in UT (but will ship anywhere). I bought a PC there 18 months ago and haven't had a problem with it yet.
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I did it not too long ago, you'll be surprised at all the cool things you can do on it, especially if you have fast internet. Its a wonderful feeling when you walk in to the video game store, and every game on the shelf, you can install on your computer without worrying if you have enough of this or that to run it.
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