When I first came to Hatrack in the neolithic era, I was fifteen years old and sure I knew everything. I was thoroughly steeped in the conservative politics and talk radio of my parents and adamant about my faith and naive enough to assume that the two were codependent. I had not lived on my own, I had not been exposed to different cultures and lifestyles, and I was convinced that I was smart enough to change the world with my dazzling debating skills.
I know now how silly I was. One of the threads on the old forum I spent the most time debating on concerned homosexuality, and each post I made was a crusade for righteousness in my eyes. I'm sure I offended and slandered my fair share.
Now that I've become a regular poster here, after several long breaks due to lack of internet access in which I've had time to change and grow, the world seems so much more complicated and rich. This is a beautiful thing, but this can also be tragic.
I struggle with knowing when to speak and when to stay silent. I struggle with knowing when to declare my faith and my beliefs and when to keep quiet to keep the harmony and the neighborly feeling I've grown to love here.
I love that I can meet and befriend people of such differing political, religious, and cultural backgrounds and still appreciate them for everything beautiful about who they are.
But where does this leave us? What do we talk about and what do we refrain from talking about? Do we risk the hurt and offense that drives away our good friends like Caleb and Belle by discussing the most heated and painful subjects around, or do we happily whittle away the hours bantering about fiction and music and comedy? There must be a middle ground somewhere. There must be a balance to be struck.
What do you think, friends?
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
From talking to both Caleb and Belle after they left Hatrack they both said that leaving Hatrack was what they needed. Neither of them seemed to express remorse for spending time here, nor for the threads that eventually caused them to want to leave. It's not that they were driven away, leaving was just the next step in their personal growth. Maybe a later step will be to come back. Who can say?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I do hope so. I know my time away did me some good - it let me grow up a bit without displaying all the awkward in-between steps!
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I have topics that I don't really feel are any of my bidness (politics), some that I don't feel I could contibute to or do not agree with (the mingling of religion and politics) and some that I post in when I believe my addition would be more beneficial than harmful or can add a perspective not represented by any other member (certain religious topics).
Fluff is fair game, and topics about things that would require far more knowledge than is floating 'bout in my brain (like the serious physics/mathematic threads) are under LURK ONLY OR LOOK LIKE A GOOBER.
I won't post on a thread that has cheesed me off until I can stop feeling emotionally charged. If I can't ever feel objective about the conversation, it ends there for me. I won't address posters that piss me off, unless I believe they have hurt someone ELSE I care about, and then only so that the wounded party (and I mean decidedly wounded, not mutually wounded) knows I've got their back.
Because I wasn't sure if I could articulate how I felt using reason instead of emotion, I've left certain threads with content I felt was RIGHT OUT go without my contribution. It's always in retrospect you realize that even if you had posted on it, it probably would not have changed a stinking thing. The ways that Hatrack has helped mold me have not always been in one particular post, but a general attitude and respectfulness. When that one post that is epiphany-inducing comes along, it's sinks in because my mind has already been opened by the presentation and respect in which it's been packaged.
While I'm sure I don't always succeed, I try to guage whether or not I post in the "serious bidness" threads by asking if it maintains that respectfulness.
Of course, some times you just gotsta put dat smack down. That's where "pick your battles very, very carefully" comes in handy.
[ August 25, 2003, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Good topic. I think a little detachment can be a good thing. Very hard to do when you're passionate about a topic, or it affects you personally, or you're just in a prickly mood and itching for an arguement.I know when I see a logic error or inconsistency or hypocrisy or rationalization in a post or series of posts, I often shout "AHA!" to myself and come down on it with cleated boots. Not the best way to achieve civil discourse. But errors like I mentioned just bug me. I'm far less likely to attack other posts with things I disagree with if they seem logical and well-thought out. Sometimes I'll say "good point, though I disagree" or even "I've never looked at it like that," in response to posts I disagree with but are well-stated and logically consistant. Posts like that are often the ones I learn the most with.I try to avoid ad hominem attacks but I know I've given some, especially at first.
I don't think any topics have to be avoided, but religion, abortion and homosexuality seem to really push some buttons, I guess because they touch on deep-seated beliefs that often are fostered in folks from a very young, pre-rational age. At least for some, those three topics and all their assumptions, rationales, and other emotional baggage have rarely been closely examined calmly and rationally. Or if they have been examined, it's very irritating to see others who disagree with you, because you have thought about it and now you have to defend it against those close-minded bigots on the other side of the arguement.
Well, I rambled a bit but my point is I don't think any topic should be ruled out, but in some threads you should tread a little lighter than others.
All in all I find HR very mature and full of lively and interesting discussion. I'm glad to read and post here.
I hope that answers your question, Annie, at least from one newcomers POV.
[ August 25, 2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Interesting points, Ralphie. I've certainly violated the "lurk only or look like a goober" rule, the online equivelent to the old saying "you can keep quiet and have people think you're an idiot, or speak up and remove all doubt." No wonder you come across well on the forum: you control your anger in a way almost impossible in real life discussions. I have often posted in anger and regretted it. Maybe I'll try your strategy. Just don't step on my last nerve!!
[ August 25, 2003, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
I think it's important to have passion for something without letting it completely devastate you.
I learned the hard way that it's not worth it to me to get too emotionally involved with an online community. I had my heart stomped on, flat, pancake-like, without syrup. Still, I get so tempted by Hatrack, because I like the people here, more than any other online community I've been a part of. I think the people here are far more forgiving, kind, graceful, thoughtful and overall generous than any other online community I've been a part of. But it's still not worth it to get too emotionally involved...because once I do, I'll be one of the ones who has to go away for a while, maybe forever, because someone p!ssed me off too much. And really, even if that happened, it wouldn't be that person's fault....it would be mine, for going beyond what I could or was willing to handle.
I like the fluff here, but sometimes it's embarrassing -- I don't get it. The jokes. I'm *so* grateful that people can't see the totally blank look that comes across my face when I know that something really funny just got posted, but have absolutely no idea why it's funny. I hate that. So, dangit, you guys need to post more jokes that a 10 year old would get. I think my favorite thread is the chicken crossed the road one. That one is classic.
And then there are the games. Mafia anyone? Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
Hang on just a damn minute....
BELLE LEFT??!?!?!??!
When did this happen? How? Why?!?!
I feel like one of our Graemlins has been removed.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: Interesting points, Ralphie. I've certainly violated the "lurk only or look like a goober" rule, the online equivelent to the old saying "you can keep quiet and have people think you're an idiot, or speak up and remove all doubt." No wonder you come across well on the forum: you control your anger in a way almost impossible in real life discussions. I have often posted in anger and regretted it. Maybe I'll try your strategy. Just don't step on my last nerve!!
I thought it was because everybody likes a skank. Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Yes, well, urr *cough,cough*of course, but a gentleman could hardly admit that, could he? But since you admit it, your skankiness is the envy of and inspiration to skanks everywhere!
This reminds me of the time my mother found out that my brother had joined a hookers union, by perusing a union magazine he'd left on the coffee table. Turns out, he joined to help him counsel rape victims, many of whom were prostitutes. Well, that was his story and he stuck to it.I guess Mom bought it.
[ August 25, 2003, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Troub, I think Belle left after a fight with Bob Scoptaz on that long gay marriage thread... Not sure...don't quote me on that I hope this isn't one of "lurk or look like a goober" things that Ralphie just mentioned...I'm sure some old-timers will have the real low-down. I liked Belle and hope she comes back.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
IRL, I only argue with people I like and respect. They're the ones whose opinions matter to me, so they're worth the energy of ironing out the fine points.
Here, I'll only add to the serious threads if I feel someone else has been unnecessarily hurt, or if I think I have a unique perspective on the issue.
My primary rule in any argument is, "Keep the goal in mind and make sure that the words used bring me closer to, rather than further from the goal." It's a simple concept, but I think it is fabulous in helping pare away the hurtful words. It immediately rules out personal attacks, because the goal does not involve hurting the person being argued with.
Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
...erm, so I guess we're talking about what to talk about? *grin*
I usually only lurk in the "serious bidness" threads because I don't trust myself to not come across as stupid/condescending. Oftentimes I'll change my initial "position" after reading a few posts from differing viewpoints anyway , so I usually learn the most by just shutting up and listening. (Also, I'm pretty young, and I think I'm fairly naive about many subjects, and half the time I don't know what the beejebus I'm talking about) When threads turn nasty and uncivilized, I just stop reading them. Flamewars ain't my thing.
If this computer weren't so dang slow, I'd be posting a HECK of a lot more on fluff threads (where "changing positions" usually has more to do with perversity than philosophies... ) *sigh* As it is, I've really only been taking the time to post in threads that I feel like I *have* to post. (The hugg thread, for instance ) Hopefully, this situation will improve when I get out of Alaska.
Edit: plus, in my long-windedness, I sometimes forget points that I wanted to make when I started writing.
[ August 25, 2003, 02:57 AM: Message edited by: Zotto! ]
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
Lord knows I changed a lot from when I started lurking the Lion (6 years ago?!), and to when I became a UBB regular (4 years ago), and most certainly since the extended break I took in the interim.
Interestingly enough, the bulk of these changes occurred not during the defining experience of my college years (the semester in Vienna, 3.5 years ago, during which I posted here from various internet stations), but in the aftermath. I'm not quite sure of the phenomenology at work, but it's as true an observation as any personal detail I've posted here. I'll ponder and return, or address further points as they arise.
Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
Hang on... Belle Left?!?! Because of Bob!?!?
I'm in an alternate universe, surely.
Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
I'm confused, too, Troubs. Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Its seems unbelievable to me too guys. Bob said something which Belle took in a way in which it was clear to me he didn't intend, and then further misunderstandings seemed to take place.
Crazy, crazy, crazy.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
There's a myriad of reasons why I exclusively post on fluff threads, but I don't know that they're important.
Anyway, about Belle. She didn't leave because of something Bob said, although that thread probably served as the straw that broke the camel's back. She left because she didn't feel like she was really part of the community any more. She also felt she didn't have time, what with a part-time job, 4 kids and lots of writing to finish. She sent me her "goodbye" thread in an E-mail and told me to post it if I wanted to. I told her I didn't feel like that's something I should be doing and that she should tell the community herself, but I guess she elected not to. I still have the E-mail but for some reason I'm still leery of posting her goodbye thread. As I see it, she chose not to come back and post it, she chose to leave quietly. I'll respect that. I guess, if people want to read it, they can E-mail me and ask me to forward it to them.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
I think that no topic at all should be off limits. I have faith in a free-marketplace of ideas, that those which have no merit will die of their own weight, and those which are of value will fly.
I love it when everyone can manage to remain respectful of those with whom they disagree. Sometimes it's very hard to do that. We're all human, of course, and sometimes fall prey to anger or outrage or other strong feelings. One great thing about a forum is that you do have that extra chance to read over what you post before you post it, and rewrite to express the same thoughts in more measured terms. I know I do this a lot. Also on a forum nobody can interrupt, and there is less need to reiterate. (Actually, there should be no need whatsoever to reiterate, since anyone who doesn't bother to read the whole thread from the beginning doesn't deserve a response.)
I sort of stopped posting on the serious threads for two reasons. One is that nearly every serious topic there is we've discussed over and over again until I feel I've had my say. I no longer feel the burning necessity to tell my view on the subject. Secondly, and more importantly, when threads degenerate into flame wars it's just grievous and unpleasant to even read them, let alone respond. For a long while (due, I believe, to the Ornery contamination) it was not possible to discuss serious topics without flame wars breaking out, though I think things are much better now.
I think there is great merit in discussing ideas of sensitivity and importance with people who have very different views. Particularly if everyone can control themselves. It makes for interesting and lively discussions. I just love the hatrack motto, "We speak with passion and listen with respect." When I think about what that really means it gives me chills.
It's easy to think that no minds are ever changed, because it so rarely happens that someone says, "I used to think this but now because of your last post I think something else." However, minds ARE changed. In the long run people do mature, they think things through in a deeper more thorough way, and contact with a wide variety of viewpoints is crucial to this process.
So I think that serious threads are very good things. Even the perennial ones. And there is no topic too sensitive or personal to discuss.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
ak, I'll second what you said....sometimes minds ARE changed. I know mine has been, by some of the stuff we've discussed here. I couldn't, for example, see any reason why we might need a law defining that it is still rape even if the sexual contact starts off consensual. Ironically, it was Belle who pointed out a good enough reason to where I could see a point and a need for the law.
And I agree that no topic should be outlawed except ones that are particularly derogatory to a specific person and/or their beliefs. Other than that, every person has to decide for themselves if they can handle being part of the topic discussed. I've stayed out of some really interesting discussions because I didn't think I could keep my cool. And I've stayed in some really interesting discussions too long, lost my cool and wondered if it was worth it to hang around.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
::thirds::
Posted by tabithecat (Member # 5228) on :
I am a big lurker, now with that being said I have found that as a free radical (unkown n00b) sometimes I am responded to and other times I am just ingored...fair enough. As far as things that should or should not be discussed...well I feel would be disastrous to the this whole nutty family if there were suddenly things that became "outlawd" as topics. what if someone should sometime in the future *gasp* should bring one of these "forbidden" subjects? I can tell you someone would point out that this now a no no subject, than someone else would do a link to the place where it became known to all that it was now forbidden, than someone else would point out that perhaps the poster did not know it was a banned topic and we would have a long heated thread full of all the things that make them up.. misunderstandings hurt feelings links heated words and perhaps the loss of another vital part of this community that's just what I can see happening not to say would but still it just would not work.
[ August 25, 2003, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: tabithecat ]
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Annie, what a great question.
Let's talk about anything and everything! Homophobia--of course! The Nature Of Reality--why not? Censorship--sure!
But let's keep our heads. I tend to duck out when people start calling each other fishheads, and are serious about it. Flamewars are counterproductive, as has been said previously in this thread, and I just do not wish to participate.
But I enjoy a free exchange of ideas--even ideas that I don't agree with, and would like to argue against. I may not know all the rules of debate, but I'm not here to make any enemies either.
This is about the point where I had decided to try to derail this thread and talk about, oh, I don't know, U2 perhaps....
But I won't. Thanks for the question. Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I like to post to discussion threads, partly because I'm such an egotist that I want everyone and their uncle to know my opinions, and partly because I get interested in speaking about the Important things with people who aren't the same old people I talk to all the time.
I don't usually get involved enough to get mad, except when it comes to matters of politeness... (once got rather mad at flish, but got over it. ^_^ Hi Flish!!)
All I can say is that a little consideration goes a long way. I always go out of my way to be reasonable and not condescending and sometimes people take that to mean that I don't have strong opinions. I do. Do I ever... But I don't believe that getting angry about it and arguing is going to change anyone's opinion to mine.
So I keep an open mind, and try to post what I really truly feel without singing anyone's fingers along the way. It's worked well so far...
Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
See, I completely forgot to post my response to the original question!
Yeah, I too agree that there's NOTHING we can't talk about, as long as we don't let fear or anger cloud what we say.
As Annie said:
quote: What do you think, friends?
(bold letters mine)
I think that THAT is the attitude needed during discussions.
[ August 26, 2003, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: Zotto! ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
--I--
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Mack, flip everybody off day was Saturday.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
--I-- --I--
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I just like to say that when I post on serious threads I am not writing from experience, only general knowledge and opinion, which means I usually say something that isn't terribly smart because I usually simply don't know.
Perhaps you should think about the people fitting the posts (and therefore posting what you like), as opposed to the post fitting the people.
But this is a serious thread, so this is merely uninformed opinion.
Posted by Maccabeus (Member # 3051) on :
I find it difficult to post on most varieties of fluff threads. There are exceptions, usually those that require some kind of thought (such as "Good, Bad, Yo Mama"); ordinary "what did you do today" are the most difficult.
I much prefer to post on philosophical, religious, and political issues, in which I find much rough-and-tumble fun. Trouble is, I always seem to be offending _someone_, as evidenced by my recent spat with Lissande. (I'm sorry!!!)
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I think that it comes down to respect and a willingness to admit your own fallibility. It's important to realize that no one person knows any issue from all sides. I dislike the idea of saying that dicussion comes down to someone changing their mind. For me, that's neither necessarily what I want to get out of other people's post, nor what I want for them to get out of mine. Rather, I want to hear their side and I want them to consider mine.
The majority of my opinions hover around the 60% mark. I feel like I might have the majority of evidence on my side, but there is so much I don't know that I have to be open to other interpretations. I rarely "change my mind" based off of one post, but I do honestly try to consider the opinions of people that I respect. Oftentimes, this consideration leads me to a new understanding of the issue at hand. I don't think that this altered understanding really falls under what people consider changing my mind, but I think that it is both deeper and more important than that. I've been taught that it is often more important to be able to understand and argue both sides of an issue than it is to have a definite stance on it. I think that is especially true in a context such as a message board where only opinions are trader and no action is taken based on these opinions.
So, I say things that are offensive or hurtful to some people. I hope that at least some of them respect me enough and are open enough to other opinions that they consider that I might have valid reasons for saying and believing as I do. I know that I have gained a great deal from considering the opinions of people who say things that are opposite to what I believe.
edit: I wanted to add the idea that there are two different ways to respond to a differing opinion. One can get defensive and try to somehow overcome or beat that opinion, or one can be receptive and try to understand it. I've been trying (and largely failing) to figure out how to get more people to be receptive to ideas that they don't agree with. I think that is an extremely important part of productive discussion.
[ August 26, 2003, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Okay, so first we decide anything goes, and next thing you know we have the Gelatinous Mass! Are these two things connected?
Should we count on people being over a certain age before they brave hatrack? SmallBigCityGuy was 12 and Hobbes was 14 when he started. Ender was 11, of course, when he saved the world, and I've always considered him more or less as the prototypical hatracker. Do we limit the conversation to things we'd talk about in front of 11 year olds? Even very mature intelligent ones?
I'm 14,000, of course, but that's very young for a dragon, as we all know, and I'm not at all sure I can take all that stuff. For me it's okay, I just left that thread when it got too squicky for me, but should we leave it up to everyone of all ages to do that?
Somehow I feel it would be kinder of us to do our best not to outrage anyone's innocence. But then again, we do have Lalo, and also CT, and maybe their innocence would be abrogated by any suggestion that they should clamp down on it? I just don't know!
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
The main reason I refrain from posting in a serious thread is that I don't have anything to say that hasn't already been said, and I don't just feel like saying "Me too." (Hmm... doesn't seem to be stopping in this thread, though.) I try to be pretty even-handed when I do enter serious discussions. In fact, I'd be surprised if many people around here knew what my personal beliefs are on a lot of issues. (Although, in all fairness, it still surprises me when anyone knows anything at all about me, even my name or existence.) I haven't yet gotten angry with anyone here. The most I've gotten to is irritation, and that only with a few people, some of whom are no longer here.
Even in my relatively short time here I've noticed that people periodically post meta-threads asking or complaining about what we talk about. It all has its place. No topic is really out-of-bounds; every newbie that wants to talk about religion or homosexuality or HJO hears how we've already done that one to death, but those threads also tend to garner a lot of discussion. I've never understood the problem some people have with fluff. When I am hanging out with my friends IRL, I don't limit my conversation solely to heavy discussion, and I see no reason why it should be any different here.
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Yes, well, urr *cough,cough*of course, but a gentleman could hardly admit that, could he?![[Evil Laugh]](graemlins/evillaugh.gif)
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