I'm not married. I live with my boyfriend and have for several years. We have talked about marriage and probably will get married eventually. But, several close college friends have recently gotten married (to significant others who they have known for 4 or 5 years) and seem to be having similar sets of problems in their first years of marriage. These people are of varying religions and the problems don't seem to be of a particularly "religious" nature.
The main complaint by my female friends is that he "doesn't do anything" but sits in front of the TV and computer like bumps on the log and doesn't have goals for the future. Most of the females in question are very strong personalities (which is probably why I like them) The husbands are all extremely intelligent guys, who value all their good qualities despite their occasional temper flare ups. Both of the females in question have actually gotten so fed up with their men that they have been paging through the phone books for divorce lawyers.
At this point my theory is that it is just part of two people adjusting to each other during the first years of marriage. I also wonder if these particular guys would benefit from the LDS emphasis of having guys in the household leadership roles. However these women are ornery women and wouldn't really do well in a more submissive relationship, and would never have picked men that actually expected them to be submissive. Also things that they were doing in the relationship all along (such as planning out their future goals) they suddenly expect the guys to take charge of, when the guys have been conditioned over to let the women do it, because they always have been doing it.
Also it appears in the most recent case as if she was lying to herself, or looking at the relationship through rose colored glasses for most of the time. I know in particular I thought she had lost her mind when she said after being introduced to it by him she liked watching WWF. (This was said in the presence of many witnesses.) But I thought she actually did like it, she genuinely seemed to, I didn't realize she was lying to herself.
Now, when she complained to me about his WWF watching, my response was, "But you said you liked it." He took her at her word that she did, and I can only imagine how confused he is now. She says she keeps talking about problems and telling him exactly what she needs to make them better and he isn't doing it. My guess is that she's talked and talked so much, he's tuned her out out of self defense. I'm not saying he isn't a bit of a putz, but he's always been a bit of a putz. I didn't realize she didn't see it before she married him. I figured she loved his putziness too, because without it he wouldn't be who he is.
I knew at the outset that I wasn't going to relate well because in my own relationship I don't have the same ones and I'm not married. I sat there and let her vent. I told her to talk to the other mutually close friend of both of us who has been through similar marital problems. I guess I shouldn't have tried to be logical about it, especially where I thought she was being unfair in her expectations of him. Anyway when I used my own relationship as an example of which partner has what expectations (cause heck I don't have any other example of my own), she thought I was flaunting my own good relationship in her face, told me to go to hell and signed off of IM.
It hurt. A lot. And yet I can rationalize it, by saying that she wasn't actually upset at me as the cause of the situation, and by siphoning off some of the anger at me maybe it will lessen the anger at her partner. But it still hurts.
Anyway, what I am interested in for the purposes of this thread, is for those of you who did get married in the "traditional" way (not living together first etc) did you have any similar issues in your first years of marriage, and how difficult were those first years?
Right now seeing what my two friends are going through it doesn't particularly make me want to get married.
AJ
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Unrealistic expectations are one of the biggest pitfalls in the early stages of marriage.
If the person acted one way before they were married, one can't just assume that they will change when the vows are taken. Guys (and gals) who don't pick their underwear up off the floor before marriage probably won't change much.
But why get married to change someone else? That's not a very honest way to go about getting married. It's like saying, I'd love you if you'd change this and this and this.
I've found this to be a regular problem among women more than men. They seem to want to not just play house, but to play dolls with their husband. They want to change his clothes, make him pretend to do the chores, to be responsible, etc... They are projecting their wants through him as if he was an inanimate object. Sadly, it probably isn't going to happen.
But he did those things while we were dating, he made changes for me then!
Right, while you were dating. Dating isn't just a test drive, it's also negotiating the deal. Partners will often do a bit of this, a bit of that to change to make themselves more attractive, more mate-able. Ever changed clothes right before a date because you didn't think the other person wouldn't like what you were wearing?
Once the vows are said, though, the deal is set in stone. It's for better or worse, richer or poorer baby. Welcome to warts and all-ville. It's the same person as before, but the rose-color fades a bit from the glasses.
And why should he continue changing? Why shouldn't he be allowed to watch TV (oh no.. WWF! not that! gimme a break, it's just TV) and enjoy whatever he wants. What that boils down to is that SHE isn't enjoying what he's watching, but rather than waiting her turn, she wants her turn AND his.
You see, she wants her life the way she wants it. She also wants HIS life the way she wants it. She only sees what HE isn't doing to fulfill her plan for THEIR lives. She might complain about his watching TV, but never mentions that he gives of his time to mow the yard or fix a squeaky hinge that bothers her more than him. He also might not complain when she watches Lifetime TV or Oxygen. He just goes on about his business and does something else.
But it all comes back not to unrealistic expectations, but to UNSHARED expectations. And that's the bottom line (cause Stone Cold says so -- WWF reference, so sue me), isn't it? If she has an expectation for him that he doesn't also have, then she's projecting and he's failing in her eyes. The same can go the other way. He might be a traditionalist who wants her to cook dinner for him, but she might have neither the desire nor the skills to do such. (Guys, wanna win a girl? Learn to cook, really cook. Trust me.)
The difference is that guys are often a little more pragmatic. She's not going to cook? Fine, take out pizza works for them. There's always dinner at Mom's house on Sunday, or he may even start to cook for himself. A guy won't give up watching wrasslin'? A gal will often just keep harping on it, hoping he will change. That's called nagging. Nagging breeds ill will, which breeds contempt which then breeds apathy which then breeds that most insiduous of all bottom-feeders: divorce lawyers.
Tell your friend to get a grip and look at what SHE can do to improve his life in his way, not just the other way around. One can act like a queen and then find herself viewed as a tyrant. Most times, though, she still just a princess trying to play house with a living, thinking doll.
[ September 03, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Sopwith ]
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
The first year of marriage is typically not all honeymoon. My wife and I have been married almost 5 years now and the first year was easily the hardest. There are a lot of reasons why, but the most likely is the fact that we were both in our 30's and each already had our set routines. It's not easy adjusting your life to mesh with someone elses.
I think communication is the biggest key to making it work. I'm getting your friend's story second-hand, but you described as she was telling him what he need to do to fix things. That's a great way to put the guy on the defensive right there. She needs to discuss with her husband why the things he does bothers her, not just tell him to stop doing them.
I'll add more when I can put it together.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
AJ, this is a great thread. I'd thought of starting one (instead of the current vent thread) asking for honest marriage stories instead of either the rosy ideals or the divorce court horrors that are so much easier to find.
Since that would put people in a terribly vulnerable position (especially those whose spouses read and post!), I thought about creating a log in for it, and asking the brilliant writers of Hatrack to have their illiterate great-uncle to rewrite to erase the specific-jatrequero-shaped footprints.
So, um, no contribution here. Nice thread, though! *runs off to create anonymous log in*
[ September 03, 2003, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Geoffrey Card (Member # 1062) on :
Being LDS, and having not lived with my spouse before marriage, I'm curious what differences you expect to see when you tie the knot with someone you already live with. I mean, it's not like you're unaware of any of their habits. Do you expect the added level of commitment to increase the irritation factor of normally-innocuous things?
I've noticed recently that a lot of relationships I know involve the woman thinking the guy is lazy and worthless because he sits around watching TV or playing video games instead of doing something "useful". While it's not as severe over here, I know it probably bugs my wife when I'm playing a video game and I simply don't notice until afterwards that during the same time, she's gone and cleaned the entire kitchen. It's not like I asked her to — usually I expected to do it myself later. And she knows I'm not trying to make her do extra work or anything — I cook and clean about as often as she does.
But I've noticed that a lot of women that I know find it very difficult to relax and play around if there are household jobs left to do. While most guys I know have no problem playing first, and then doing everything at the last minute. In fact, they much prefer to do it that way. Clearly, this isn't universal, but I'm surprised at how common it is.
Now, in either case, if the two people are single, the work eventually gets done. BUT, if these two people are living in the same house, and if both of them act out their natural inclinations, it means that most of the time, the woman is doing chores while the guy plays around. The woman resents the guy for just sitting there while she does all the work, while the guy is just confused as to why the woman insists on working so much when she could be relaxing.
However, it sounds like your friends' biggest problem is communication. Their husbands have no idea how much their wives resent them, and have no idea how to fix the problem. Meanwhile, their wives are looking for dramatic ways to blow up and leave them. If they talked, in a non-accusatory way, about their expectations for each other, they could probably get by a lot of their annoyances.
But a lot of people don't realize what it takes to share a life with someone. A guy often expects to be able to live as he always did, and just have the other person around more often. While a woman often expects to get a full-time assistant out of the deal. In reality, you have to do a certain amount of synching and bending on both side, to accomodate one another. In this particular sample pairing, the guy needs to go out of his way to help sometimes, even when he thinks it's totally unnecessary, and the woman needs to learn to leave him alone sometimes without resenting him ... and even relax with him now and then.
[ September 04, 2003, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: Geoffrey Card ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Incidentally he does cook (but not her preferred dishes) and do laundry, but she is mad because he won't wipe down surfaces. (I'm not sure exactly which, she didn't specify) and vaccuum once a week. Now I'm a slob, so I won't tell you how infrequently "surfaces" get wiped in my house but it is generally just before company comes.
Oh apparently he does go to the other room and watch "his" programs on a different TV if she has something on he doesn't want to watch. I don't know if she does the same. He also told her that she "wants too much" whatever that means, which really ticked her off.
The only thing I knew to do after she told me to go to hell, was call the other friend who has weathered similar issues (all three of us are extremely close to each other) and give her the synopsis. #2 said she would call #1 and let me know what happens. #2 also knew I had been hurt by the things #1 had said at the end. I know that that friend #2 will be able to say the correct things to #1 that I can't since I haven't been there and I just end up hurting more feelings in the end. #2 was actually laughing a bit as I read snippets of the IM going, "I have said those exact words!"
I only hope that #1 will actually answer the phone when #2 calls. I know #1 will be mad at me for telling #2 (even though #2 has a perfect right to know) though I didn't divulge any confidential information. Plus I know I couldn't do any good in the situation so I went to the only person I know who actually could help #1. Plus they have both gotten mad at me for similar things in the past because I'm too d@mn logical and do the logical thing, as far as getting them help, rather than the emotional thing to sympathize and tell them their man is scum. They both cool off and get over it after a while though.
(and if I'm not making much sense today it is due to lack of sleep because the aforementioned IM conversation lasted til 1am)
AJ
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Ack. What Geoff said.
[ September 03, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: advice for robots ]
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
There were difficulties in the first year or two, that we don't have now. But I wasn't very suprised by any of it, even having only known my husband for 6 months. I could see a logical extension of his behaviors in everything I'd seen before.
There is culture adjustment. My family does it one way, your family does it another. Have to learn how to mesh the two together. I expected an adjustment period, but I may have been helped by the fact that I was braced for culture clash (my husband being Russian). I knew we would get angry at each other. I knew we'd have to get used to each other's daily habits.
From an LDS standpoint, leadership doesn't need to mean the other person is being submissive. Leadership means they are responsible for certain things. It is more being a servant than being a master. In a marriage, this is necessary. Both partners need lead and serve the marriage in some manner, and learning the best way to divy up the responsibilities takes some work and can't really begin to happen until those responsibilities exist in the marriage. Having children presents another adjustment.
Perhaps there comes a problem when one thought marriage would be the way they dreamed, and the guy would just step up to the plate and be Fantasy Husband. But that just doesn't happen. The vows don't change the person. And actually putting your lives together in marriage: spiritually, physically, emotionally, and financially is a lot harder than hanging out planning a future.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
My wife and I have a lot of disagreements about house cleaning. She is much more thorough than I am. She insists on using furniture polish whenever she dusts - I don't think it's necessary. When she scrubs the tubs, she leaves the Comet (which she insists on) on after she scrubs to let the bleach or whatever work - I just rinse it off immediately. Generally, this isn't really a problem, because we worked out our agreement that I'm pretty much responsible for the yard and she's responsibe for inside. It works out much better that way than for her to be irritated that I'm not doing it the right way and me be irritated that I'm being told how to dust.
Geoff pointed out a lot of good things. Understanding each other's timing is very good.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Love this quote Geoff it bears repeating!
quote: But a lot of people don't realize what it takes to share a life with someone. A guy often expects to be able to live as he always did, and just have the other person around more often. While a woman often expects to get a full-time assistant out of the deal. In reality, you have to do a certain amount of synching and bending on both side, to accomodate one another. In this particular sample pairing, the guy needs to go out of his way to help sometimes, even when he thinks it's totally unnecessary, and the woman needs to learn to leave him alone sometimes without resenting him ... and even relax with him now and then.
The reason why I was more interested in people who haven't lived together before marriage is because I suspect the merging of two lives together very suddenly is a bit of a shock to both systems and I think the adjustment is more radical.
My boyfriend and I living together was more of a gradual process. I ended up staying with him a lot because he was a 5 minute walk away from my classes and study groups and when I was with my Chem E groups til 4am I often just didn't feel like driving all the way "home" when I didn't have to just to catch 3 hours of sleep before class. He ended up having a roommate that was bad with paying rent and having to move to a smaller apartment where I spent even more time. Then when my lease was up, it seemed normal and practical to move in together in a larger place, particularly one that would allow dogs.
We have had some disagreements over the division of labor, but never on the order of magnitude that my friends appear to be having. Steve does cook, and is in fact an excellent cook. He doesn't generally like what I cook, so he tends to cook more. In return I try to do the dishes, and do most of the laundry. He's never for as long as I've known him actually folded laundry to put away. So why would I expect him to fold now? If it is folded he will help put it away though. As far as cleaning goes, Steve is far more efficent at it than I am. If we need to "speed clean" for company it is better if I just sit down and get out of his way. If I flutter around him and try to help it just makes it worse. I feel really bad about this because I would like to help in such situations but I always end up making it worse or creating a disaster of some sort.
I would also be interested for people who lived together before they were married to say how much things "changed" before and after the marriage. Right now I figure I have an excellent relationship and I'm afraid that marriage might actually change it for the worse rather than the better.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Adam, keep cooking for your friends' girlfriends. Trust me, it will pay off. That's exactly how I met my wife...
(Edit to add: A friend's girlfriend liked my cooking and went to one of her friends and said "You've got to meet this guy." She then called me up and said "We're bringing a girl over and you're cooking dinner." The rest is a very nice bit of history. )
[ September 03, 2003, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Sopwith ]
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
One secret to a happier marriage: don't air all your problems to your friends. Work them out in private. Try to speak well of your spouse and highlight his/her good points. Focus on the good points. Don't encourage your friends to undermine their spouses, either.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
The big issues in our early years of marriage are all me, because Mama is perfect, as I've told you all many, many times.
Number one was time spent on the computer. The internet was still fairly new to me -- I went without a computer for many years, so when I'd last had one I had been excited in upgrading to a 1200-baud modem from a 300-baud one. I hadn't found Hatrack yet, so it was aol chatrooms (usually either science fiction or authors, and I looked for people who wanted to talk about Card -- it's where I met Thor, actually, though he doesn't remember it). I was just having fun chatting with folks, and there was never any danger of infidelity, even verbally, because that's just not who I was. I mean am. Am.
It was that I was shy (amazing for those who only know me online, but in person I'm actually pretty darn shy). I was still shy about all my faults, and afraid that if she saw them in all their glory that she'd realize what a huge mistake she'd made. I didn't feel that way all the time, but frequently enough that it really made a difference.
I stopped the chatroom thing, and was very slow in my entry to Hatrack (just over 100 posts in two years). Luckily, Hatrack is far different (better) than a chatroom. It's a community. But this thread doesn't need to devolve in a Hatrack back-patting fest.
The biggest problem, though, became my job. Working retail management in the Christmas season, I was spending 7 days a week, sometimes 15 hours a day at work. My physical health, mental health, emotional health, spiritual health, marital health -- all these were beginning to slip. Weighing them against the particular job I had, it wasn't that tough a decision to make. It was difficult to execute, though, because the idea of becoming jobless only a year into marriage (while still in debt from all the foolishness of my youth) was somewhat terrifying. But in balance, it wasn't nearly as terrifying as endangering our marriage or me.
However, neither Mama nor I went into our marriage assuming everything would be perfect. We both knew I would cause problems. Waiting to have kids was a good idea -- we wanted to learn to be husband and wife before attempting to be mommy and daddy. Having a church family to support us was helpful, even though the average age of the members of our church was probably around 60. Being involved at church was important, too, as long as we didn't overdo it (which we did a little anyway). Friends next door helped.
I've said in the past that when I started voluntarily listening to country music because she did, that's when I knew I was in love. Well, the fact is that I will voluntarily do many things for her sake, as will she for mine. Neither of us has attempted to change the other -- unless the other indeed wanted to change anyway. I wish I kept a cleaner home, so even when it might have felt like nagging for her to suggest that I clean something up or make the bed, I was able to get past that feeling and take her suggestion on its merits.
The fact that your female friends have flipped through the phone book for divorce lawyers is a frightening thing. The fact that it's an option at all is something I view as dangerous (not a view I plan to argue right now, please). It's not something Mama and I believe to be a good solution. That's a tough opinion to have, since her parents divorced and each remarried, and my mom had divorced and remarried my dad. Without divorce (from one point of view), she'd be without a sister and second brother, and I wouldn't even have been born.
Ok, tons of people have written good stuff, and I want to read it before I continue with this one, so I'll be done for now, ok? But I reserve the right to be recalled as a witness.
--Pop
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
another thought: Maybe the adjustment to two lives being lived simultaneously together is actually easier when you haven't known each other as long. With the 3-month mormon culture marriage timeline outlined by Kat in the other thread, you don't really have to get to know each other twice. The major adjustments that are made to accomodate each other in any serious relationship during the first six months are made at the same time that the marriage adjustments are made. These people had been dating, in #1's case, for over 5 years and spending time with each other on weekends and holidays when possible after leaving school. They had adjusted to that lifestyle, and thought they knew each other well enough to get married, not realizing how many things they didn't know about each other and were going to have to re-learn. If it had all happened in a shorter period of time (though in this case it wasn't exactly possible) they wouldn't feel themselves as tricked or betrayed by the other.
AJ
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
AJ, that's actually one of my conclusions. There seems to be a trade-off between being older, knowing yourself better, having more self-control and being wiser (a la Pop and Mama) so you can deal sensibly with issues, and being still young enough to be so supremely flexible the issues never appear.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
quote:There seems to be a trade-off between being older, knowing yourself better, having more self-control and being wiser (a la Pop and Mama). . . .
The "being older" refers to me, and the rest refers to Mama, right? Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
Geoff,
That reminds me of something that happened when we first were married. We were just getting into our apartment, and I start cleaning my dishes that had been packed in boxes. The previous weekend I had been cleaning the apartment from the trashing it recieved when the previous occupants were evicted so that we could save on the cleaning deposit. (He wasn't doing nothing that weekend, he had been at work at the time.) Vladimir came in, took the glass out of my hand, and told me to come and just relax a little while.
We did have quite a few fights in that first year or so. And when we got a new baby. That is a different kind of adjustment altogether, because now there is even more to do. There is an ideal today, that the husband should get up with the baby as much as the wife. This is all good, and sometimes we do need help. But I was nursing, and staying home, and husband had to get up in the morning and go to work while I could nap with the baby. I didn't expect him to get up with me. He needs more sleep than I do too. We really have to be sensitive to those kinds of things. Fit the wants to the needs and the reality.
I really like what AFR said, and I learned this early on in our relationship. I had a friend, and I joked about something. She had been joking about her husband a lot too. But what I said came to her husband, which came to my husband. When I realized how it had made him feel, I felt horrible. Don't put down your husband with the ladies.
I once sat at a table during a church activity, and had to listen to women trashing their husbands, far worse than I'd been joking. It made me cringe. How would these men feel if they could hear how their wives talked about them? Why do we women do this?
[ September 03, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Amka ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I love reading threads like these because it just reminds me of how nice it is to be single and how not suited I am for marriage. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Pop: Definitely - in the older part was for you, and you just got lumped in with the wisdom and self-control part to be polite.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
As far as divorce. Both of these couples are strongly idealogically committed to the sanctity of marriage. #2 has gotten through some of her rougher times because of that commitment, even though it made her feel better to flip through the phone book for divorce lawyers. Neither #1 or #2's husbands are angels though they aren't horrible people either. #2 especially had more cause (similar situation to T_Smith's father) than I think #1 has. To make a judgement call on these friends, I would hazard that #1 is a bit more selfish and a bit more of a primadonna than #2. But they are also both genuinely warm caring, interesting people 90% of the time.
I'm not sure if I agree with this statement and would like to see it discussed further:
quote: One secret to a happier marriage: don't air all your problems to your friends. Work them out in private. Try to speak well of your spouse and highlight his/her good points. Focus on the good points. Don't encourage your friends to undermine their spouses, either.
I'm all about focusing on the good points. It was a bit of a juggling act for me in the situation to both agree when he was being a putz and yet defend him and point out his good points when I felt she crossed a line. That was partly what got her mad at me. I was being logical and not purely sympathizing with her. The thing is, what if working it out in "private" doesn't work? When is it ok to ask older and wiser people for help?
I also suspect in general that women "air out" things more than men. I think it is partly the way we are hard-wired to verbalize more and verbalizing helps get it out of our system. I mean if you know you are mad, and yet it is unjustified, isn't it better to just air it out with a trusted friend, who knows you are venting, and not take out the unjustified anger on an undeserving spouse?
Personally, knowing that I verbalize more than Steve, I don't really expect him to listen to me while I rattle on about stuff. He is good about grunting from time to time to acknowledge my existence. If it is truly important, I say in the midst of my rattling on, "Hey this is important, are you listening?" He will come out of his trance at the computer to actually listen, and then when I start rattling after the important stuff is over, tune me out again. It takes me a while to work up to verbalizing the important stuft and then once the important stuff is actually said to wind back down again. We both understand how it works and don't get upset about it.
AJ
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I'd like to back up Pop with this: Another big plus in a marriage is taking responsibility for your own habits and actions, realizing that you have a lot to improve about yourself, and staying humble enough to do it. What I see in many struggling marriages is the tendency to excuse oneself and point the change wand at the spouse. Don't just set yourself up as the martyr in your marriage who has to suffer through all the faults of your spouse. So many people are so unused to admitting to themselves that they might be doing wrong--I mean both tactically and morally. They have no preparation for the constant compromise and sacrifice of marriage.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
btw katharina, it was a combination of your other thread and the whole incident last night that caused me to start this thread. So you can feel that you had a hand in founding it.
AJ
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Amen, Stormy, amen.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
quote:I mean if you know you are mad, and yet it is unjustified, isn't it better to just air it out with a trusted friend, who knows you are venting, and not take out the unjustified anger on an undeserving spouse?
IMO, no. Your friend isn't your spouse. How are you going to learn how to communicate with your spouse about the important, intimate things if you're just discussing them with your friend instead? Isn't your spouse your most trusted friend? If not, your marriage already has a big structural flaw. Bringing up marital problems outside of the marriage, behind the other's back, is extremely damaging to the trust and intimacy you need to develop within your marriage. You're missing a huge opportunity to strengthen your relationship with your spouse.
Getting marriage counselling is another matter. You and your spouse go together, or at least agree to go separately. Both spouses are aware that the marriage is being discussed with an outside party, with the aim to resolve issues. If that's what your relationship needs, then fine. Sometimes professionals can be a huge help. Even if your counsellor is not a professional but just a close mutual friend, the secret is the "mutual."
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
quote:seem to want to not just play house, but to play dolls with their husband.
Great quote Sopwith.
My wife and I did not live together before marriage, yet we were engaged for two years, and dated for 2 years before that. We knew each other pretty well.
Still, after 14 years of marriage, she still gets upset by the time I spend in front of the TV instead of cleaning the house or mowing the grass.
Its not so much the amount of time as the scheduling of that time. When I have the energy and the willingness to work around the house is when she has card games planned on the net or is chatting with friends from India. When she is ready to work is when I am playing or when there is something fun to watch on TV.
Here is some help. 1) Don't compare schedules. Don't complain that you did dishes for 15 minutes while they only dusted for 10, meaning you should get an extra 5 minutes goofing off time. That is a competitive situation that can only lead to fights. 2) Assign jobs. Divide up the housework with the expectation that each person will do thier stuff, and don't nag until its obvious stuff isn't getting done. 3)Recognize their interests. If they love WWF and you love a fanatically clean house, it is only right to expect them to share in your cleanliness to the same extent that you share in their wrestlemania.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Christy and I lived together for a year and a half before our wedding, and have been married for over three years, now -- and, to be honest, we've never really had any major, life-destroying issues.
There are the minor things -- like hobbies vs. cleaning regimens, frequency of sex, etc. -- that affect almost all couples, but I think you learn to live with those pretty easily.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
"frequency of sex"
You mean one of you likes a high pitched squeal and the other is more of a low growl?
Wait, don't tell me. You'll tell me when I'm older, right?
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
LOL
Amplitude being the other key issue here.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Well that's encouraging Tom. If Steve and I end up half as happy as you and Christy we will still be happier than most.
As a far as the disagreements in my friends marriages are concerned, I think it isn't just household chores, but more of a general direction in life. #1's husband bought a small starter house and already had it furnished, albeit bachelor fashion when they married and #1 moved in with all of her stuff. Her stuff is still in boxes and he isn't making room for it. (I knew things were serious when she started talking about throwing out her books!) The general plan (I thought) was for them to either rent or sell the current house and move into a larger place more convieniently located between their jobs. #1 has been commuting nearly 4 hours a day to live with her husband. Husband gives the impression he doesn't really want to move because then he would have to drive farther to his job. Money isn't really an issue, they are both engineers and make quite a bit.
#1 also may get downsized if her company goes through another round of cutbacks but I don't think that would happen until spring. If she did get downsized then they might think about starting a family (though this is another area where she feels he's leaving it "all up to her") But, they really couldn't have a child in the tiny house they are in now unless they got rid of the computers, which we all know won't happen!
AJ
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
(Apologies up front for length.) Dan's "don't compare schedules" reminded me of a thread at another website -- this was a mom who was complaining that her husband didn't do enough to help. She created lists of what she did and what he did. I don't think the comparison is a good idea anyway, but the unfairness with which she categorized the things was incredible, and I don't think she was ever aware of it. She listed categories of daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, and occasional tasks for him. There were additional categories for her. I'll edit out the names, but first -- the husband's list:
quote:Daily Work 4:30pm(gets home earliest at 2:00am, latest is 4:00am) Sleeps until 11am. Take garbage outside/baby diapers makes own breakfast
Weekly Mow lawn Take laundry down stairs Bring Laundry upstairs. Any outside work Bathroom cleaning of shower/tub Put garbage out for garbage pick up
Monthly Fix anything that may need to be fixed Take cars for appt.s they may have scheduled
Yearly Take <child> out to school bus
Things to do when I ask for help or occasionaly on own Occasional dishes Occasional laundry/wash/dry/put away Occasional Diaper change Occasional baby feeding Occasional Vaccum Occasional check on daycare kids when sleeping upstairs Occasional Pack Lunch for work Occasional makes own lunch/supper to eat at home before work Run errands for me when I ask
Ok, I've bolded a few things that weren't exactly itemized. The first -- a work day anywhere from 9.5 to 11.5 hours -- is a single item on his list. Now let's look at hers:
quote:Here is what I do(not including taking care of other peoples children daily) <Child #1>: note: <Child #1> may eat differnt meals than the rest of the family on a daily basis Daily Make sure he is played with and happy Diaper changes(Make sure in disposed of properly) Make Breakfast and feed Clean up(includes wiping off face, hands, table, and booster seat) Make lunch and feed Clean up (includes wiping off face, hands, table, and booster seat) Make Supper and feed Clean up(includes wiping off face, hands, table, and booster seat) Bath Clean up(put tub toys away) Snacks Clean up(includes wiping off face, hands, table, and booster seat) Drinks Clothed for the day and night (dirty clothes in laundry basket) Teeth Brushed Change bed sheet Put to bed at reasonable time
Daily House chore Kitchen Wash dishes twice a day Put dishes away
Weekly Make sure all laundry is together to wash Seperate laundry and put in washer Fold laundry after dry Put laundry away
Make necessary Doctors Appt.s for both kids
Shots Sick Visits Give medicine at proper time if prescribed Dental Visits yearly Eye Dr. Visits yearly
<Child #2>:Note: <Child #2> may eat a differnt breakfast and lunch than the rest of the family on a daily basis
Daily Make Breakfast Clean up(Make sure plate is in sink or garbage) Make Lunch Clean up(Make sure plate is in sink or garbage) Make Supper Clean up(Make sure plate is in sink or garbage) Snacks Bath Teethbrushed Dressed( dirty clothes where they need to be) Make sure take care of any headaches go to the bathroom(#2)
Daily House chore Kitchen Wash dishes twice a day Put dishes away
Weekly Make sure all laundry is together to wash Seperate laundry and put in washer Fold laundry after dry Put laundry away Put basket away
Biweekly to 1 month Make sure room is cleaned up and vaccumed Change bed sheets
Yearly/Daily when in season Plan activities for him to keep busy Tball game practice Tball games Ready for school Make sure school work is done Make plans to go to dads Make sure Dates are scheduled to drive half way for pick up and bring home
<Husband>: Note: may eat differnt meals than the rest of the family on a daily basis
Daily Make lunch/supper (when I have time to make it for everyone so we all eat same thing) Pack lunch for <Husband> (when I have time)
Weekly(<Husband> and <Wife>) Make sure laundry is all together Seperate laundry and put in washer Fold laundry after dry Put laundry away Put baskets away
BILLS
Monthly Bills Paid Monthly and on time House Payment House Payment Phone Bill Electric Bill Cable Bill Van Payment Visa Payment House Insurance/Car Insurance Water Bill Garbage Bill Enough money to buy heating oil for winter
Biweekly Checkbook balanced biweekly to make sure of any unoted transactions Savings account checked biweekly to make sure of any unoted transactions
House Chores Family
Daily Kitchen Wash dishes twice a day Put dishes away
Livingroom and diningroom Pick up any plates, napkins, tissues, pop cans, drink glasses or cups Make sure things are put where they belong/organize
2 Bathrooms Clean toilets wash floor/vaccum wipe off sinks
Kitchen/Dining area Wipe counters off Mop floors in kitchen and dining area Clean out refrigerator and throw out leftovers Wash Dishes
General Clean off computer desk Clean closet/changing room out in bedroom Water Plants
Yearly:
Appointments Make any appts. for our health i.e. Dr. appts. Dentist appt. Eye dr. appt.s Go to the OB/GYN appt. and schedule them Make sure van/car is inspected or has an appt. Any appts. that need to be made and kept I make sure they are attended or rescheduled
Daycare
Same as <Child #1's> Daily and <Child #2>'s Daily Schedule. This means 2x the work because I watch 2 more extra kids. Paper work for daycare. Track payments
Sorry, I couldn't help but laugh. There are some serious issues in this household, but one is definitely the wife's need to get a grip and open up her perspective a bit. This kind of thing can do serious damage.
It should be noted that the only suggestion given to her from more than one person was to get rid of the cat.
--Pop
Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
Pop... thanks for the lists... I feel much better about myself now.
quote:This kind of thing can do serious damage
Double Amen.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Banna, you reminded me of a problem we had when we first got married. I owned a condo and she moved in when we got married. About 6 months later, we bought a house and moved in. During that 6 months, she was bothered that she was living in my place and didn't really have anything in it that was hers. My opinion, at the time, was that we would be moving soon, so why go to the trouble of rearranging everything just so we can pack it all up again.
I stupidly did not realize how important it was to her to have some of her things around her. We didn't live together before marriage, so she felt she was starting out our new life together completely on my turf.
Pop, that woman really needs to get a grip.
quote: Make sure all laundry is together to wash Seperate laundry and put in washer Fold laundry after dry Put laundry away Put basket away
Funny that I've always just referred to this as "do laundry".
quote:Bills Paid Monthly and on time House Payment House Payment Phone Bill Electric Bill Cable Bill Van Payment Visa Payment House Insurance/Car Insurance Water Bill Garbage Bill Enough money to buy heating oil for winter
This is known as "pay bills".
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Yeah, I think living arrangements are important, too. Mama moved into our new apartment a couple months before we got married, and I started moving my stuff in bit by bit over time, so that for the last few days in my apartment I pretty much lived out of a suitcase. It helped to move into a place that was ours, not hers or mine.
--Pop
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Good grief, Pop. That is spectacular.
Lists are only tools -- they don't help unless people are using them for the good; i.e., as a reminder to oneself of how one can be more helpful to one's spouse and more caring of one's marriage.
It's when a partner gets into the habit of getting a pleasurable tweak out of the other's pain (be it self-righteous satisfaction at proving that one does more work, or whatever) that you know the marriage is starting to fray. You can't be stabbing and embracing your partner at the same time, at least not while being successful at either.
[ September 03, 2003, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
What I don't like is that you aren't told as a kid that when you live on your own as a grown up, you have to do ALL THE CHORES! o_O
Including killing spiders and wasps.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
So as an analysis, understanding that the first year is always difficult, and these people were married in January, and you only have the limited info I've given you, do you think this is semi-typical and they will work through these issues or do you think the marriage will end?
AJ
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Yes. This is semi-typical. They will work through these issues or the marriage will end. Harsh, but true.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Oh, and mack -- we don't kill spiders and wasps. Didn't you read? Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
That is why we have kids, mack
The looking through the phone book at divorce lawyers is a little less 'working out' than I'd hope for. If things are that bad, why is it the divorce lawyers first, and not the marriage counselors first?
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
I think the willingness to understand each other's needs really plays a big part in marriage. I fully admit to being clingy, but then again, Tom is good about knowing when I need attention (like when I've come to check on what he's doing on the computer every fifteen minutes) and when we can be doing our own thing.
I think the big trouble with the first year of marriage is that you really recognize that there is a give and take. You start to notice the things that you do for your spouse and many people begin to be irritated by having to try. Both Tom and I went into marriage knowing it was a working relationship. Something that would change and that we would put importance on in all our thoughts and decisions. I'd like to be optimistic enough to say that we have succeeded in doing so (although there are always moments of selfishness and weakness).
I agree that comparisons are the worst thing to do! The thing I find the most helpful (being one of those anal cleaners) is taking over the chores that are important to me. He, for one, is compulsive about the kitchen. I am compulsive about the laundry. It helps me to have an assigned day to do chores. I am much happier this way. I know every Sunday we get up, read the newspaper and do our chores. Then we go out and do something fun. It is rewarding. Any other cleaning we do during the week is at our own pace and discretion.
I know you wanted responses from those who haven't lived together first and this was a rather long post Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
Anna, I think that your friend really needs to take a good long look at why she is angry. She seems to be spouting off for little things and there is most likely something underneath that is being aggrivated and causing her to see him as less than motivated.
Hopefully they can work things out, but it has to take both people seeing that there is trouble and wanting to resolve and work on it. Otherwise, the rift will grow too large and they will divorce. It all begins when one person starts to see everything in terms of "me."
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
amka, I'm thoroughly convinced that me and my sister doing chores were the only benefit my parents saw in having children.
Pop, I haven't read yet 'cause I'm only on book III!
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I think the underlying problem is that she doesn't feel "wanted" anymore especially because there isn't room for her stuff. Her husband (who is also my friend) isn't the most demonstrative guy in the world to begin with, but I know he genuinely loves and wants her. Like I said, I think she got married with the expectation that when she moved in everything would change, and I think he had the expectation that everything would stay the same, exept for having her around more.
I know he did say things that hurt her feelings and she was lashing out because her feelings were hurt. She hurt mine too, and did it somewhat deliberately. Though I'm sure I said the wrong things in the course of the conversation and made her feel worse even though I was just trying to be a sympathetic ear.
So whether expectations and reality can be reconciled remains to be seen.
AJ
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Re: Mack's post
This is a side note, since I have no real contribution to the thread, but I and my father find it a great source of amusement that my dad dropped off my baby brother at the Missionary Training Center (to leave for two years) on December 17 and bought the family's first snow-blower on the way home.
[ September 03, 2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
MTC?
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
AJ, I think some of the things your friend is going through are normal and part of the adjustment to married life. My husband I had a very argumentative first year, though not really about the household chores or TV watching, since neither of us are big TV watchers anyway. I guess some of it was that I wanted him to be more sensitive to my needs, and he always wanted to fix things when I felt bad, instead of just being the listening ear I needed. I don't even remember what some of the arguments were about, to tell you the truth. But we were both very stubborn, and determined to make our marriage work, even when we went through some tough times a few years later.
Maintaining a good marriage relationship requires some work, it is not always easy. There are ups and downs, and it is important to keep the lines of communication open, and to be aware of each other's changing needs.
**Ela**
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
I think men and women have completely different ideas of what "marriage" is going to be. For women, they spend so much time having "the wedding" that they forget about the marriage completely. Until they are married, of course. Then they expect it to be all Cleaver/Bradyish. Women have unrealistic expectations of men.
Men, on the other hand, figure they are done, once they get married. They have completed their task, which was to get their mate to marry them. It is the "hunter" mentality. They hunt is the fun part, and now that they've gone in for the kill, what is left to do?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Kayla, I just don't believe that. That may be the stereotype - which means its probably occasionally true - but stereotypes are not useful in determining reasons for specific behavior of individuals. In other words, unless you're a stereotype, they aren't going to help.
And you, Kayla, are not a stereotype.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
I also disagree with you Kayla. My marriage is definitely not like that.
**Ela**
Posted by Geoffrey Card (Member # 1062) on :
So, how can you tell when someone just wants to be listened to, and when they want advice/solutions? Don't both situations sound virtually identical to the listener?
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Kayla--In other words:
Women expect their husband to be just like them, only more perfect.
Men expect their wives to be just like their mothers, only more perfect.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'm not married, but when I spill out to my best friend, his first question is "Am I listening or am I suggesting?" I give a one word answer, and away it goes. It's worked for a long time.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Kat, once you get married, you're expected to know the answer to that question without asking. Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
Except that sometimes even we don't know if we want advice or to be listened to.
I think that as women, well as human beings, one of the best things to do, especially in a marriage, is assume the best intentions on the part of your spouse.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:So, how can you tell when someone just wants to be listened to, and when they want advice/solutions? Don't both situations sound virtually identical to the listener?
Heh. Possibly, Geoff. I guess the key is for both the teller and listener to differentiate between a "vent" and a "listen, I have a problem, what do you think I should do?"
**Ela**
[ September 03, 2003, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
Posted by seriousfun (Member # 4732) on :
I married my (now ex-) wife after knowing her for 6 weeks. Spank me now.
She was 23, I was 26. Neither of us had a strong religious organization or community to support us, and she in particular was disconnedted with her family.
The first year was the hardest, and it made all subsequent ups and downs that much harder to work through. She decided to hate our living situation, even though she was fully aware of it when we got hitched (we each shared with roomates, and it was simply a matter of choice as to whose place we moved into). We got married because we didn't want to live together - again, no particular religious or cultural reason, just the fact that we believed that we were knew what we needed and were smart enough to make it work - as if!
We didn't have any particular roles in mind, although she was one of those ornery women . IMO, the roles that work are the ones you agree on, which may or may not specifically be the ones that your particular culture or religion proscribe.
No matter what the men said when they were dating (remember, us men will say just about anything to get...well you know what), their partner must judge them by their actions, and it sounds as if their partners' actions are not meeting the womens' needs.
Through fifteen years of trying, job successes and layoffs, home purchases, 3,000 mile relocations, two kids, much counseling, we were not able to overcome that first bad year, and eventually had to end it.
I am much happier now, and although it hasn't been perfect for our kids, I believe it may have been worse for them if their parents had stayed together. She says she's much happier now (I believe her meds are working!), but I really don't see her happiness, yet.
As long as there are no major health code violations in the house, and as long as no one is sleeping with their neighbor or beating up on their spouse, I think almost any behavior in a marriage can and should be adapted to. This takes a large amount of eg0-sacrifice on the part of both, but it is, IMO, the thing that will keep the marriage together.
Now, on the cooking thing...never tell a girl how good you are in the kitchen (again, a guy will say anything...). After she cooks for you a few times, invite her over for hot dogs and beer, but slam her with a meal twice as good as the ones she has defrosted for you. You will be amply rewarded, grasshopper.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Maybe that is why I upset my friends who want the "fairy tale". I think even though I'm female I need to start asking my female friends the question "am I just listening or am I suggesting" Maybe that would get me out of the hot water I get in because I don't think like a normal female.
As far as the whole "wedding" thing, I've never wanted the whole wedding headache to begin with. Even before I was ever dating, I didn't have the wedding fantasy and my dress picked out. I still don't. Admittedly watching the knockdown dragout between Steve's relatives and mine would be entertaining but also a recipe for disaster in any sort of wedding setting which is why I still don't want to think about any actual "wedding". The idea of being married and living married life doesn't bother me near as much.
The thing is that the advice jatraqueros in general are giving is the same thing I've heard people say for years. It is like I'm the only one who actually believed the difficulties encountered in making a marriage or relationship work and my friends didn't quite have it sink in. I mean in every magazine from religious down to Cosmo, it says universally, "Don't get married thinking you can change him. It is a recipe for disaster."
I guess this is why I'm floored by some of the unrealistic expectations they have.
AJ
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Hope is an amazing thing. I mean, heck, people adapt to living in Antarctica. Harvey Pekar has literally spent thirty years as a file clerk, thinking any moment his writing is going to call his ship into harbor.
I love the "Am I listening or am I suggesting?" question. It just makes things so much nicer all the way around. Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
The first years of both of my marriages were tough. I think it goes with the territory of making major adjustments in your life. I know that the first years of my children's lives were not the easiest either. I don't think we humans take change all that well, even when it's good for us.
I've only been married for 3 years so far this time, and have to say that I picked right this time. I think the toughest part about our first year was that I'd made too many changes in too short a time. In the space of three months, I moved 1,500 miles, started working from home instead of in an office, sold a house, got married and moved again into a brand new house that needed a lot of stuff done to it to make it ready to really live in. About six months after things settled down I couldn't figure out why I was so incredibly unhappy -- those were all good changes. Hubby and I met with a friend who was also a family counsellor several times and that solved it for me. I just needed someone to help me sort my thoughts out, give me some validation on where I was right, and some conviction where I was wrong.
I think it was enormously helpful to have a lot of premarital counselling. I also think it was helpful that we're both previously divorced (not that I recommend that path). We are both now totally committed to the marriage and it would take abuse or infidelity to re-introduce the "D" word back into our vocabulary.
Additionally, we have a fairly large community of friends with the same values for marriage, which helps us be accountable. Several couples we are close to have had their hard times too, and knowing what they are working through is inspiring. It keeps us working on our marriage.
I'm with afr about not talking trash about your spouse. That's the absolute number one red flag for me to say that there is something seriously wrong in the marriage. Which is not to say you can't ever talk your way through your frustrations... it's just to say that if you are actively guarding your tongue, you are also actively working on those opinions, testing them out for truth, and maybe even what you can do to resolve the problem.
Ultimately, what I see in the couples we work with in our church, is that the ones really struggling are ALWAYS looking to their spouse to improve the situation. And it NEVER gets better until they stop confessing their spouse's sins and start working on some of their own instead.
Posted by Rohan (Member # 5141) on :
I'll second what Geoff said, and Sopwith. The expectation of mind reading has got to go. You wouldn't do it with a co-worker or stranger on the street, why subject your spouse to that kind of performace expectation? I know that some have suggested that doing something because you were asked is not as noble or wonderful as doing it on your own, but I have discovered myriad situations where my wife wants it done HER way, I don't care which way it gets done, so I ask her. What do you want me to do? And then I take her at her word. She does the same to me. This means that although we still fight about things (she believes in this magical thing called "soap" as the cure-all for dishes. I mean, come on, that's just WEIRD), at least I always am reasonably sure where I stand. No guessing, no wrong guesses.
This process doesn't really occur during dating because you don't "have" things in common to do things to and with. That's why it's commonly seen as a "marriage issue".
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I think its important for people to realize what can and cannot be changed in their partners, but I don't agree necessarily that wanting change is a bad thing.
I myself am a big fan of self-improvement, and I love it when I have someone to act as a catalyst for that change. For example, I can't cook. I know that when I move in with a woman though, I will learn how to cook as best I can, and look foward to doing so. I'm also not naturally a neat freak, but enjoy living in an extremely clean environment. A woman could easily motivate me to clean on a much more regular basis than I would by myself. Another example is fashion. I enjoy looking good, but have very little concept of how to dress fashionably. A spouse could easily help change me in that regard. As much as I'd like a girl who would love me "as I am", I would prefer a woman who will motivate me to stay in shape for her. In these examples, and others I can think of, a little pressure to change would be a welcome thing for me.
There are things that you just can't, or shouldn't try to change though. One thing would be a person's interests which only annoy you because you are selfish. If the guy in this situation wants to watch WWE, by all means let him. If she wants to change him in his interests, the positive way to go about it would be to encourage him to take up a new hobby with her. It would be better to add something else both could enjoy, rather than taking away something that he does. (if that makes any sense) Also, faults that someone has little control over only cause resentment when one complains about them.
Of course I've never been married, so I'm sure I don't know what I'm talking about .
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I think it's important to know that little, seemingly petty disagreements always have something deeper behind them.
Wes can't cook if there are dirty dishes in the sink. He washes all the dishes in the sink, then he cooks supper.
Me, I only want to wash dishes once a day. At night, after all eating for the day is done. I don't wash dishes before I cook, I can just move the other dishes aside if I need to get to the sink for water.
Silly, petty thing, right?
It's just the front for a much bigger issue. See, everytime he came home and began washing dishes, I felt like he was making a comment on the way I've kept the house today. Like he's judging me, washing the dishes is a way of saying "You didn't do a good enough job and now I have to step in." I get surly and irritated.
From his point of view, he works two jobs and a lot of long hours to provide for me and the kids, and a big part of that is paying for this home that we all love. When the home is messy, it feels to him as if I and the kids don't care about it, which makes him feel hurt that we seemingly don't think so much of his contribution.
Plus, it's just simply a personality thing - he functions better in an orderly kitchen, it's easier for him to think and cook that way. Me, I don't give a darn, and clutter does not affect me.
Now, with the help of our pastor we were able to see where each person was coming from. Once he understood that I felt attacked when he came in, he backed of. If the dishes weren't done, he didn't comment and he didn't do them. Once I understood that he thought it was a personal affront when things looked like they were in chaos in the house, I began making an effort to get things if not clean, then at least a little more ordered before he comes home. I load the dishes throughout the day into the dishwasher, so they don't sit in the sink. He can't see them, but we don't wash dishes twice a day. Both of us are happy.
A small effort on each of our parts, to reach a compromised solution.
If I could advise anyone about the get married, I'd point out that a little annoyance can really multiply over the span of 10 years or so. And with that multiplication can come things like resentment, and feeling unappreciated. Those are not healthy feelings for a marriage.
Always look for more than what it is on the surface. And be willing to give a little, ask yourself the question - is it worth it to stand my ground on this, to make a point if it keeps discord between us? I hate cleaning up and straightening. Wes knows it. But more than that I hate for him to be hurt, because he thinks I don't appreciate him. Nothing can be further from the truth, but in order to show my true feelings for him - he needed to see that I cared about our home.
Five minutes of straightening a day to affirm to my husband what he means to me? Easy tradeoff.
Not commenting on some form of disorganization that makes him uncomfortable to keep from hurting my feelings about it? Easy tradeoff for him to make.
Now we both feel appreciated and understood.
We've been married for almost 12 years, folks. This issue has been with us since the beginning, we've always gotten upset with each other over housework, each of us getting our feelings hurt.
Over a ten year period it built into something big. Both of us were angry, a lot of pent up frustration at the other one about it, occasionally it would erupt and there would be a big fight that ended with both of us upset. Over dishes? No, not really over dishes. But that's the surface thing we focused on and fought over, without getting to the real issue.
Praise God we're past that now, and we have strategies for dealing with similar disgreements, so that an argument doesn't ever progress to screaming anymore, and it almost always ends with both of us falling over ourselves to apologize to each other. "It was my fault, I had a bad day and shouldn't have taken it out on you." "No, it was my fault, was frustrated and this just got under my skin, but I know that you didn't mean it the way I took it." "No, no - it's my fault, I should have thought about how you'd feel when I said it....." Much, much better.
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
Helping a spouse change shouldn't be, "I want you this way." But more like "I want you to be the best you that you can be."
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
I think that another good key to marriage is to allow one another alone time where nothing is expected and where the one has a chance to read or watch TV or whatever.
Another good thing to do, as has been mentioned, is to find out who has the greatest interest in performing a certain task and to divvy up labor in that way. For example: My wife is an absolute clean freak. I like a well-ordered living space, but my "clean" is equivalent to "filthy" for my wife. When I clean something my wife will come in and tell me that I did it all wrong, didn't take enough time etc. which results in an immediate blossoming of anger on my part. We have come to the realization that the only real way for her to be satisfied with the level of cleanliness in the house is for her to clean it. Thus nearly all of the household cleaning is her chore while I take care of dishes, the yard and all fix-up projects. While her projects are basically daily mine are usually an intense amount of work a couple of times a week. For the most part it works out, though there are always times of friction.
And finally, as has been repeated many times but cannot be stressed enough: don't expect your spouse to change. Certainly you may encourage and facilitate improvement, but the fact is that most of us are very set in most of our ways and trying to cram our spouse into the mold we desire for them will result only in pain for all involved.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Jacare, that is very similar to how my wife and I do things. If I could only keep her out of my garage, our marriage would be perfect. It's weird how similar we are sometimes. If I started eating babies, we'd be twins.
Belle, that was a great post. Before you had some counseling, had you and Wes ever discussed why the dishes thing was bothering each of you? K and I went to some premarital counseling and one of the things we learned is that we (and most people) are much more willing to accomodate the other person if we know why that irritating thing we do is irritating.
My wife didn't like that I played video games as much as I did. Why was that? Was it : A she thought it was a big waste of money B I was being a slacker and should be doing something around the house C she hated all the violence in the games I played D because of work, we didn't spend much time together and she missed me
It was D. She never really nagged me about it. She just told me that with that and other things, she didn't think we got to spend much time together. I told her that was my way of unwinding after work all day. We ended up compromising with me cutting back on how much time I do it and she realizing that I'm probably a better person to spend time with if I get to do it for a little while.
[ September 04, 2003, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: zgator ]
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
quote:I told her that was my way of unwinding after work all day. We ended up compromising with me cutting back on how much time I do it and she realizing that I'm probably a better person to spend time with if I get to do it for a little while.
Out of context thread, anyone?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Ohh, and Hi Papa Moose!
Hobbes Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
<must insert obligatory onanism remark here> AJ
(now I've derailed my own thread!)
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I think the biggest issue is communication.
Communication means both Talking and Listening. It does not mean keeping quiet and hoping it all blows over, nor does it mean telling someone what to do.
Mind reading between you and your spouse only exists on a limited basis. Assuming, expecting, and demanding that they know why you are upset, what you want done, and how you want it done will only lead to disappointment.
My wife and I realized quite early that we would do anything the other person asked, and nothing the other ordered us to do, and nothing the other person didn't know needed being done.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
zgator, we never discussed it before when we weren't angry. Usually it came up when the other person was just fed up and felt like screaming.
You can't work out anything when you're in that state - you have to discuss things when you're both calm and no one is upset. But, the tendency is during those times, not to bring up anything that might upset the other one!
Cousneling provides a neutral ground. The counselor asks the questions - "Adrian, why does it bother you when he washes the dishes?" and you're answering her, not your husband. It's less personal coming from her.
I am a firm believer in counseling, and not just when things are bad. In fact, Wes and I didn't think things were bad. We weren't on the cusp of divorce or anything like that. I think there are a lot of things counseling can offer even to happy couples. Look at it as a way to discuss your relationship in a safe place. There are always areas you can improve upon, no matter how happy you think you are.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
quote:Wes can't cook if there are dirty dishes in the sink. He washes all the dishes in the sink, then he cooks supper.
Belle, I thought I was the only one like this. I don't particularly like cooking most of the time, but I can't do it at all if the kitchen isn't spotless when I start. But it rarely bothers me if it's messy when I start, and that I have to clean it up.
I like your illustration, though. I think Ross would be happier if there was food on the table when he got home. Something to think about. Thanks, much.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
jeniwren, I remember something I saw once on a talk show, of all things. Not that I recommend one get their marriage advice from talk shows, but you can hear something helpful almost anywhere.
A woman was complaining that she washed all the clothes, she folded them, she sorted them, and she put his clean clothes on top of his dresser. She expected him to put the clothes away in his dresser when he came home. The fact that he never did made her furious. She was doing all this work, surely he could take a few minutes to put away the clothes she washed and folded for him!
The counselor said "Put the dratted clothes in the dresser if it bothers you!
I mean, after you've done that, it takes barely anymore time for you to put them in the dresser. The fact that you're not, has nothing to do with him, it has to do with you trying to make a point and having something to bitch about. He doesn't care that his clothes are on top of the dresser, he can function fine. You're the only person who cares about putting them in the drawers - so do it!"
When I first saw that, I was angry. What kind of inconsiderate husband is he?
She's been home doing housework and caring for kids and he can't even put clothes in a drawer? What a jerk!
It would have been a different story if her husband came home and was angry and yelled because the clothes weren't in the drawer. Instead, he came home and was happy and pleased to find clean clothes on top of his dresser! He appreciated her efforts. Putting them away in the drawer just wasn't something high on his priority list, he didn't mean it as a way of disrespecting her.
That was a case of a wife feeling like her husband doesn't appreciate what she does and isn't willing to help her in any way. And, husband's that work do need to understand what a tough job their wives have at home, especially if they have small kids. As in my case, this couple wasn't fighting over clothes, they were fighting over issues of respect and appreciation.
Now, some of you may be thinking that jeniwren shouldn't have to have a hot meal waiting for her husband, that smacks of some type of 1950's servitude. And I would have had the same knee-jerk reaction once too. It's not about that. It's about trying to understand what the other person needs to feel loved and appreciated by you. Wes' love language is service - he feels loved and appreciated by me when I do things for him that he didn't ask me too. My love language is non-sexual contact, I like to be held, and touched and snuggled with without sex being the ulterior motive for it. I also need affirmation - a lot of it. He does too, but the way he wants me to show him affirmation is by taking care of the things he provides. My need is for verbal affirmation.
It's very important to learn what says "He/She loves me to your spouse. Even if it makes no sense to you, it does to them. For a marriage to work, be willing to show your love to them in a way they understand.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
@ Belle.
It's not a '50s servitude thing, as you pointed out, though honestly, I didn't occur to me that it might look that way. My job is pretty blasted slow right now, so if I do much actual work it's pretty early in the day. Plus I do it at home anyway, so there really isn't any good reason why I *can't* have the house reasonably tidy by the time he gets home and food on the table. I don't have any kids in the house in the morning, so that leaves me a fair amount of time to accomplish things. He commutes 120 miles a day, largely because I didn't want to live closer to where his job is. We both love living in this community, so it's kind of a mutual thing that we do, but I know it's not easy driving so much.
So my cooking dinner and having it ready when he gets home makes sense from a basic partnership standpoint. I just hate the whole meal planning task. Once it's planned, managing the kitchen isn't any big deal. Isn't that a dumb stumblingblock?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Yes, I hate the meal planning thing too. So, we made up a chart, with six weeks worth of meals on it. Wes' schedule works out so each three weeks the same cycle starts over, so with six weeks we have two cycles before we start over again.
You won't believe how much it relieves you to know exactly what you're having for supper that night. The kids got input on what we put on there, and I took our schedule into account, on Thursdays we always have something quick and easy to prepare because that's dance class night and we don't get home until almost seven.
I printed it out on magnetic paper, trimmed it and put in on the refrigerator. Then I cut a smaller piece that says "THIS WEEK" with an arrow, and that gets moved each Sunday, so we know what week we're on and can tell at a glance what's for supper that night.
I also can plan my shopping at a glance, knowing exactly what I need to buy for the week.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Now I understand Kristine's frustration when she asks what I want for dinner next week and I say "I dunno, whatever you want."
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
YOu have to understand what a big step that was for me. I'm a flighty, moment by moment ENFP personality. Planning ahead by six weeks! The horror!
But I have to admit, it does make things much, much easier. See in my house, it was my husband asking "What's for dinner?" and me saying "I don't know." "It's already six o'clock." "Well, we'll just find something to cook, or we'll pick up fast food."
We ate way too much fast food that way. Now, we have a couple times noted on the chart where we order pizza, and where we eat out, but the rest of the meals are planned.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Wow, that's a *great* idea, Belle!
mmm. Since you printed it out, you wouldn't happen to still have it on your computer, would you? I'd love to see it, just to get some inspiration.
edit: you posted too quickly, Belle! I don't like putting things down in concrete either. It's a major commitment to make a grocery list, even though I *know* that that's the only reasonable and efficient way to do it.
[ September 04, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: jeniwren ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
It's on its way, as a Word attachment. I've already cleaned my computer, no nasty viruses.
I have a chore list that works the same way, I'm sending it too.
Edit: The chore list probably doesn't make sense to you. A TBD chore is To Be Done on that day. A sliding chore is one that is done only if Wes is home, and not at the station that night. That's because when he's not here, it's harder to get all the chores done.
Laundry days are the days that person's laundry is done - everyone is responsible for putting up their own laundry. The kids collect it from the laundry room and take it to their own rooms.
Before you ask - no, I haven't been following it lately, but I'm going to get back to it. When it works it works great.
[ September 04, 2003, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Belle ]
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
I'd love to see the menu, too. Our problem? Menus worked for a while, but then my husband would fall into a pattern of "I'm not in the mood for that." Ugh. And it's really annoying if we go to the grocery store on Saturday morning and I ask him what he wants for dinner, and I swear to God, this is his answer. "I don't know. I'm not hungry right now." !!! 'Scuse me? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? When you do get hungry, what do you think you might want to eat? "I don't know."
On the other hand, if I just make up the menu and he decides he isn't in the mood for whatever I've chosen to make, he'll pick at it and the leftovers will sit in the refrigerator till I throw them out! And the other day, he asked for chili, I made it and then he had the nerve to not eat it for 3 days, at which point and time, I put it into the freezer. He's getting it tonight for dinner.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
hmmm, meal planning. I need to discuss this with Steve. You see, he looks in the pantry at all these odds and ends and some how sees a "meal-tm" with all the fixings. I look in the pantry and see odds and ends. I'm not the greatest at cooking, while he is an amazing cook, but I don't mind cooking occasionally to give him a break if I know what to cook. When I tell him I'm willing to cook but have no idea what, it usually ends up with him coming in and taking over because I've done something wrong or don't know what to do next so I have to ask him.
He likes being creative too, but I think if we had a meal schedule planned out then I could fix "X" on a particular night to give him a break and he would be ok with it. Otherwise we end up with macNcheese any time I cook or end up going out which does get expensive. I love macNcheese and could easily eat every day but he he doesn't like it as much.
We tend to buy in bulk at Sam's and Costco, so we don't have huge food bills, but quite possibly doing some basic meal planning would lower the costs as well.
AJ
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Meal plans are okay, but it is better to just have a pantry plan and some basic themes to work on.
I spent most of my youth away from home working in restaurants and between writing gigs took journeyman chef's duties at restaurants while their main cooks were on vacation or they hunted for new ones. It's not a bad life and it does teach you to work on your feet.
Here's what I do, rather than having a set plan:
I set up my pantry based on these principals:
Balanced meals require: a protein (meat), a green vegetable, a starch and one random fruit/vegetable.
A pasta dinner, for example, would have ground beef or sausage (protein) in marinara sauce (random vegetables) over some odd shaped pasta (starch) with a small salad of greens served while the pasta boils. Tah dah. Quick and straight forward.
Herbed, grilled porkchops with lima beans, stove-top stuffing and carrots boiled in tonic water. Boom. Easy.
What I always make sure is in the cupboard: (forgive the list)
2 cans of tomato sauce 2 cans of tomato paste 2 cans of crushed tomatos 1 big can of tuna (for casseroles) 1 can of salmon (for quicky salmon cakes) 4-5 cans of green beans, limas, corn, etc... 1 sack of self-rising flour 1 sack of all-purpose flour 1 sack of sugar 1 sack of white cornmeal 2 cans of cream of mushroom soup 1 can of cream of celery 1 can of cream of chicken 4-5 cans of variety soups 4 cans of pinto beans 1 box of Bisquick (pancakes, dumplings, etc...) 1 can of black olives selection of dried herbs and spices (a little too extensive at times.. I need a filing cabinet for them) Fresh black peppercorns and a pepper mill Kosher salt Peanut Butter 3 random boxes of instant pudding Dried beans galore (Anasazis are great) 1 lb bag of rice Extra virgin olive oil
I also keep in the kitchen: 1 5 lb bag of red skin potatoes a string of garlic 1 3 lb bag of onions (Vidalia or Spanish) loaf of bread
Freezer/Fridge: 1 pack of frozen meatballs 1 big bag of frozen chicken breasts 1 lb of hamburger lunch meats a wedge of Parmesan Reggiano 1 lb of cheddar cheese real butter, lightly salted a dozen eggs 2% milk, half gallon mustard, ketchup, mayo, salad dressings, hot sauce, soy sauce, Worchestershire sauce and Teriyaki.
Mind you, we don't go through nearly that much each week, but there are a lot of shelf stable items there and a huge variety of things to do with them. Each week just replace what's been used. You can pretty much improvise a meal on a moment's notice there. And the best meals are often the simplest. It's not hard to cook up some pinto beans and a fresh cake of cornbread. It's heart and fulfilling. Spaghetti is always easy and its fun to experiment with getting your own sauce recipe down. And nothing beats good potato soup on a cold winter night except for maybe a quickie pot of chicken and dumplings.
As someone once said, cooking and love should both be approached with wild abandon. Baking, on the other hand, should be approached with a degree in Chemistry.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I think that you've mentioned that saying before. Baking I'm actually not too bad at. I have precise measurements that I do and know exactly when to put them in and how long the cake or cookies will cook for.
Your pantry actually sounds a lot like ours. And therein lies the problem. I don't see "meals" I see "items" like I said before. I can't just visualize a meal together as is clearly easy for you, since you just gave two examples. You think it is easy. It is for Steve too, for me it is extremely difficult!
The one exception is the veggies. I loathe canned veggies. They have to be frozen or I won't eat them. Steve also has the extensive selection of spices. The problem is that I don't know when to put in what. You can't do it precisely like chemistry.
AJ
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Hehe, well I understand about the canned veggies, hence a really limited selection of them. Frozen is better, but fresh from the Farmer's Market is best.
Herbs and Spices: Here's an easy way to learn them. Take an herb/spice out of the pantry and sprinkle a little bit on a saltine cracker. Now you know what it will taste like (since most of us know what a saltine tastes like).
Here are some basic rules for using them: Basil goes great with any tomatoes, beef and eggs. Parsley goes with everything but ice cream. Oregano is good for tomatoes, beef and sausage. Dill is best with fish or eggs. Ground Cumin gives a nice smoky taste to stews and chili. Chile Powder is about darned useless. Paprika is best as a garnish or in vegetable soups. Marjoram is like Oregano grew up and got personality. Nutmeg is great in baking, but also fabulous in cream sauces. (And grate it yourself). Cinnamon is best in traditional uses and a small amount can take the acidity out of tomatoes. Savory is good in any slow-cooked foods and great in scrambled eggs. Curry, heck I dunno, but it wreaks havoc on my digestive system. Celery seed is great in soups and tuna salads. Tarragon is good with fish and any dish using Mayo. Mix and match, be creative.
Also, if you do find yourself cooking up a veggie out of a can, you can perk up the taste by adding in a tiny dash of vinegar or lemon juice. Canning and pressure cooking both reduce the acidity in foods, sometimes muting the flavors. This helps put it back.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Yeah, I don't see much either. Tuna noodle casserole and an omelet maybe.
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
Banna, you sound like a great candidate for a great recipe collection! There are tons of sites on the web where you can enter what you've got in the cupboard and have it spit out a meal that uses those ingredients. Or you can just browse through categories that contain things that you might want to eat that night, and stop when you see something that sounds good.
I certainly don't understand how some people can just "improvise" an amazing meal, especially with lots of crazy spices. Recipes are my friends!
http://www.epicurious.com (advanced search lets you choose ingredients)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Wow, I thought I knew my spices, but I learned several interesting things. Thanks, Sopwith!
quote: Marjoram is like Oregano grew up and got personality.
Marjoram is actually one of my favorite spices, but I never thought of it that way!
I also believe in a well-stocked cupboard, although my staples vary somewhat from yours. I won't eat canned veggies (except baby corn, olives, heart of palm, and artichoke bottoms), just frozen or fresh. I do tend to have several pounds of frozen veggies at any time. And you need way more tuna!!!
Heck, it takes 3-4 cans (the 6 oz ones) to make our favorite ready-in-10-minutes-or-less supper. We call it Tuna 'n Salad. Drain 3-4 cans tuna. Mix with salad dressing of choice (I recommend ranch, creamy Italian, or sweet-and-sour) OR light mayo and some spices. Add two or three bags of prepacked salad. Mix. Serve with bread. (In pitas or wrapped in tortillas is nice; so is a crusty bread on the side.)
The other quick-fixer we love can be tossed in a crockpot in less than five minutes, but needs to cook for a while. It's great for "Uh-oh, need to leave in a few minutes, will be gone all day, what are we eating tonight???" times. Pour 1-2 cups raw rice (I prefer brown or red or wild; do NOT use instant or parboiled -- it'll turn to mush) into crock pot. Add frozen (or fresh) chicken (or turkey) pieces of choice (I like skinless chicken thighs, but any pieces will work), about 1-2 pounds worth. Pour over one jar (12 oz.) salsa OR spicy tomato sauce. Add 2-3 jars worth of water (depending on type of rice and amount). Top with 1-2 c. of frozen corn. Cook 7-8 hrs on low (4-5 hrs on high). We call it Fiesta Chicken, and it's fast (rice, freezer, jar, water, freezer, DONE) to get ready in the morning.
Oh, and since I rarely measure anything when I cook, all measurements are my best guess -- but a bit more or less should be fine anyway.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
One Hour Pot Roast meal:
Buy a 2-3 pound chuck roast (look for good marbling)
Sprinkle pot roast with Kosher salt and cracked black pepper. Brown in uncovered pressure cooker with 2 tsp. of olive oil. Make sure to brown all sides and scrape at bottom of pan to free up dark matter stuck to pan (Mayard principal remainders... tons of flavor.)
Dump in on top of roast: 3 small potatoes, halved; a handful of peeled baby carrots; one medium onion, peeled and halved; 2 cloves of garlic; five or six dashes of Worchestershire sauce; 2 bay leaves; a sprinkle of parsley; a dash of savory; 1 cup of tap water; 1/2 cup of Port wine (Coca-Cola may be substituted... trust me, it's great). Cover and set up pressure cooking rig. Bring heat up to Medium High until pressure relief begins to jiggle. Cut back heat to the warm side of medium (pressure relief should jiggle on its own 2-3 times a minute) and set timer for 23 minutes.
While that works its magic. Preheat oven and prepare a pan of biscuits. Whop a can of them if ya must, but if not, get a bag of self-rising flour (King Arthur is great) and follow the directions. Put biscuits in oven with time enough to allow pot roast to finish five minutes ahead of the bread.
Quickly cool down pressure cooker when timer goes off (put cooker under running cold water until it whoooshes) and then remove pressure rig and lid.
Place pot roast on carving board and cover with small sheet of tin foil. Let the beef rest for a few minutes as you prepare gravy. Place vegetables in separate bowl and leave liquid in the cooker.
Return cooker to the stove and crank the heat back to medium high. Stir liquid around a bit and deglaze bottom of cooker by scraping at anything that sticks. Take 2 tsps of cornstarch and mix into a small glass of cold water. When liquid in pot begins to boil, dump in the cornstarch slurry. Stir like mad for a moment and let it come back to a boil. Immediately remove from heat.
Pull the biscuits out, cut the pot roast (which will be tender enough to fall apart) and prepare each plate with slices of beef highlighted with gravy, a few of the veggies and a nice hot biscuit.
One hour is tops on this.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
During our first year of marriage, Andrew and I had to deal with fertility treatments, my mother's brain tumor, 3 job changes, moving from Queens to Richmond, and losing the baby we had gone through so much to conceive. Household chores were the last thing on our minds.
Plus, we had already worked it out. We lived together for 5 months before we got married. I graduated from college in May and the wedding was November 5th. It made no sense to try to find housing for 5 months in New York City and then have to move again. However, I would not have lived with him if we hadn't been engaged and if we hadn't been living in NYC.
Andrew is a slob and I am a neat freak. This actually works out well for us, because I like things done a certain way and I never believe that anyone else can do them properly. I do all the cooking, washing, and cleaning, except for floors, windows, and garbage. I have kittens if Andrew hangs up one of his shirts himself because he invariably hangs it so that it's falling off the hanger, facing the wrong way, and in the wrong section. I don't understand why my brilliant husband cannot figure out his closet system. Shirts face left and are grouped together by type and color (within the type grouping, of course). I can forgive the color thing - he's color-blind (literally), but why would someone hang a dress shirt facing right among the polo shirts? Why?
It's not that I'm compulsive, it's just that I can't sleep unless the house is perfectly clean. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
::looks around house::
Mrs. M., please don’t take this personally, but you are never invited to my house. I mean never. Well, maybe if I have two years notice and can get in a team of professional cleaners, but other than that, no way.
::sneaks off to hang up the jacket she tossed on the hall floor when she walked through the door::
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Holy Sweet Bejeebuz.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
You're right-handed, aren't you Mrs. M? My mother was like that. And, personally, I have no problem with it, and am a bit like that also. However, I'm left-handed. It always annoyed me to no end that she expected me to hang clothes up her way in my closet. By the same token, I don't spaz out if my husband or son, by some miracle, hang up one of their own shirts, but do it backward. (I just fix it and move on. )
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*thinks* This is off-topic, but we're just chatting now anyway.
My personal policy is Keep Public Places clean. The living room always needs to be clean and ordered, and the kitchen needs to be clean and ordered at least once every 48 hours. This way, the mess doesn't annoy other people, and there is always a clean place to go.
I'm the same way with cooking - my first step in any real cooking is to clean the kitchen. Same with studying - if I studied at home, I cleaned the apartment first.
The room that gets ordered frantically before guests arrive is my bathroom - its just too easy to leave hair clips and lotions and matches and knives and curling irons on the counter to pick that up every day. Any future bathroom over which I have planning ability MUST have a wall of cabinets in which to stow the Stuff.
My bedroom, however, is different. I need one place to not worry about things, to drop my clothes, to pile to-be-filed papers, and to take reminders and copies of my favorite poetry on the wall. That's my bedroom. I don't think that will change. Usually, you can't see the floor in there. No, no one ever sees it, and when guests come over, all doors remain firmly closed.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
You do realize that if you get married, you'll be sharing the bedroom, right? And can you really be romantic in all that mess?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Kat, I absolutely agree! (Now you know why I was a bit uncomfortable when you wanted to use my puter . . . )
[Edit: ok, the floor is usually visible, and I do make the bed. *looks around* Actually at the moment, my room is unusally neat. Huh, how did that happen? ]
[ September 04, 2003, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:You do realize that if you get married, you'll be sharing the bedroom, right? And can you really be romantic in all that mess?
I've thought about that, and I think I have it figured out.
The bedroom would then turn into a public place, and so I'd feel a need to keep it clean. What I need, then, is a big walk in closet with a chair in it that is just mine. I'll keep the mess to this place. For some, it would be an indulgence. For me, a place that I can set things down without worrying about it is an absolute necessity. I don't have a ton of clothes, so it does get cleaned periodically, just so I can do laundry and have something to wear.
This came from an amusing conversation recently - we were talking about roommates and various conflicts, and I mentioned my Public Places policy. He's been remodeling his house (himself), and he's the one who came up with the Private Walk-In Closet solution. I thought it sounded great.
Added: I just made some really wierd errors, and I think it is because I wasn't writing a sentence, I was transcribing the conversation in my head.
Rivka: That totally makes sense. I apologize for asking - I should have thought of that.
I got to beach easily, by the way. Watched the sun go down, ran through the surf, and wrote Temporary Poetry, racing the waves to finish writing before they washed it away. That was great.
[ September 04, 2003, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Mrs. M, I have a spotless apartment aside from something called the "Closet of Death." I've thrown all my extra crap into this extra walk in closet (I have two) and shut the door. If I open it, stuff falls out to kill me, hence "of Death."
Oddly, I used to be an incredibly messy kid...and adolescent...and young adult. *wonders what happened*
Kat, I have to keep my bedroom as spotless for two reasons. 1) the door to my bedroom has glass panels *shrug* and 2) I can't study or write if my room is a mess. I need order for that. No idea why.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Kat, actually, it had occurred to me that someone might ask to use the puter, so I had planned to make that possible. Ran out of time, tho . . . It wasn't awful, but neither was it Suitable for Display. See, if I'd known you had a similar policy to mine, I would have been fine. I let people in there who do the same thing; it's the one whose houses are eternally immaculate that I won't allow in.
As for you thinking of it . . . I have learned the hard way not to expect people to read my mind. So how could you know?
I'm glad you made it to the beach and had a great time -- I meant to ask, but forgot by the time you came back to HR.
I used to have a walk-in closet. Kudos if you can manage to keep the clutter in there! Y'know, I need to start following my FlyLady emails regularly again.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Mrs. M - Men!
See, my extremely intelligent husband is forever hanging up his clothes. Why can't he understand that I'd like to have it in a nice, rumpled pile in the corner? It's like we're speaking different languages. So, after he hangs his clothes up, I'll sigh indulgently, take them off the hanger and toss it back among the other clothes. Sometimes I'll sorta dance on the pile just to make a point, but he never seems to get it.
Can't live with 'em. Can't shoot 'em.
( )
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
Sure you can shoot them. It just depends on what you are shooting them with
*hefts the whipped cream*
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
My husband and I are still basically newlyweds (less than three years) and we have a couple of recurrent problems. The good thing is that we are lucky enough to realize that it's all pretty much misunderstandings, which many married couples NEVER figure out. I kills me that when we are "arguing" he'll just roll over and go to sleep without finishing a thought, while I get to stay up all night and wonder why he's so mad at me. Then, the next morning he'll be totally loving and basically agree with me, at least on the points which he was being unreasonable before. Turns out he wasn't mad, just trying to see things from my point of view, which he feels unable to do while he's tired. I thought his silence meant anger, but it meant "thinking".
Another is related to what Geoff said. When things are good, he relaxes while I clean, which seems very unfair. Then when things are very tense, he starts cleaning madly, when all I want to do is relax and "figure things out". It's so frustrating! He just likes to "do things" to relieve tension. I like to veg to relieve tension.
Isn't it awesome that men and women really are different?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
From a distance, absolutely. Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Some of those differences are really nice up close, too.
Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
I love Pop.
I love this thread, too. Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
dkw, I typically leave my white gloves at home when I visit people. All of my closest friends are messy and so are all of my in-laws (except for my father-in-law) and it doesn't make me love them any less. I am glad that you hung up your jacket, though.
Kayla, I am indeed right-handed. Andrew is left-handed. My mother is also right-handed - I come by my ways honestly.
mac, what do you think made you change? Everyone I know has been either neat or messy their entire lives.
Ralphie -
Wow, y'all, good thing I didn't mention my grout brush or my 3 vacuum cleaners.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
quote: Holy Sweet Bejeebuz.
That was indeed my reaction as well.
I tend to find myself letting everything slide for months on end because I'm so busy and then attacking it with fervor and zeal when I have some time off. I call them my 'orginazational frenzies.' In those times, I behave much like Mrs. M with the color-coded sock drawers and everything.
And then I get busy again and it all slllllides into oblivion.
But then, I'm not married, so for now, it's not a problem. I've learned a TON from this thread though.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
I know how people who are neatness freaks intimidate people, heck, the Mormon Ladies in my first ward all had these spotless houses (the ones I saw) in which not only was everything perfectly neat but it was all perfectly new and nice and fixed up too. It was just frightening! I felt like an awful sinner that I had dust bunnies under my beds. Remember I posted asking if the good housekeeping ordinances came when you went to the temple, or when, and why didn't I get mine yet? Then there was one lady, the nicest lady in the whole ward, in fact, and I happened to see her house one day when they needed a hand in an emergency and man, it was dreadful! It made me feel so much better! <laughs>
So my house is one of the non-intimidating variety. Very much so. I clean before people visit. And that's pretty much it except for basic cat-maintenance type cleaning. My mom is the type that likes for everything to be sterile, though it's okay to have some mess, stuff sitting around or whatever. I love for things to be sterile, too, but there is something deep inside me that protests at jobs that just have to be done all over again the very next day or week. Jobs like that seem like a terrible waste of my time and energy.
Nevermind that the jobs I spend most of my time and effort on just have to be done all over again the very next decade or century, and it amounts to the exact same thing. I feel like I have accomplished something when I do jobs like that. I just do. Housework is a colossal waste of time, though. I feel it in my very bones that it is. I never do it unless to make the house nice for company. That's why you have to give me 24 to 48 hours advance notice when coming to visit.
I figure when I get married, though, I'll have to do my share. So I'll just let my husband tell me which tasks are up to me, and make sure they get done before I sit down to the computer in the evenings. Either that or I'll hire someone to do them. That works too. Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Mrs. M,
quote: I am indeed right-handed. Andrew is left-handed. My mother is also right-handed - I come by my ways honestly.
Do I come by mine dishonestly?
Anyway, I was just trying to explain why Andrew might be hanging his clothes up backwards. And, for a guy, the fact that a shirt makes it onto a hanger and into the part of the closet that contains other shirts is a sign of stunning evolution. You should marvel at how lucky you are. Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I put my clothes in groups all hanging with the front of the shirt pointing to the left. When I wash my shirts, I even take them out when they are still slightly damp and pop them to get most of the wrinkles out.
Some men are not barbarians, Kayla. Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Some people have no idea how funny I truly am.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
It's funny, my husband was born really organizational. But his mom was a slob and taught him to be one too. Now, if I clean the house, he won't do a thing, but if I leave him to his own devices, i.e. leaving his church pants unironed, I'll always come back and find that he's done it all himself, and done a much better job than me. He told me that he used to beg his grandmother to make his mom clean her house. (This was when he was six.)
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
My plan used to be to work part-time all my life - enough to pay the cleaning lady. I figure if I have to spend the time anyway, I might as well spend it on something I enjoy. Plus, I have an aversion to cleaning bathrooms occupied even occasionally by men - I have three brothers.
Now, though... I have all sorts of new-liberal guilt about hiring a cleaning lady, because the vast majority of them, at least in Texas, are immigrants and trapped in their low-paying jobs. I can't figure out if I am doing better by employing them at the low wage I can afford, or if I would do better to eliminate their job altogether. Besides, what kind of snotty statement is that? "I'm too good to clean my family's by-products of living, but you are definitely not." This is not good.
My grandmother had (and so my mother grew up with) a cook and maid at all times. Part of my messiness I come by naturally because my mother was, a bit, in part because she had someone to pick up after her as a kid. My grandmother was a Houston socialite (mother's wedding: Seven bridesmaids! With parasols!), and as un-PC as having ethnic servants is now, the cook and maid were lifelong family friends. The recipes are in the family cookbook with attribution, and the maid was a bridesmaid for all three sisters. I just don't know.
Also, there is the feeling that I should not pass off the things in my life to the care of others. If it's mine, I should take care of it. If I am unwilling to take care of it, I shouldn't have it. Cleaning one's living space is a basic sign of care; do I want to be the person who isn't capable of civilization?
*muses* But then, I hate it....
So, I suppose we'll see.
[ September 05, 2003, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Mrs. M--I get manic and apparently like to clean. Then I just got USED to having a clean apartment. I also have yet to stabilize. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
My dog breeder (man that sounds bad, you'd have to be a dog person to understand) who is also my friend has about 5 or 6 dogs, worked full time as a stockbroker, and went to dog shows every weekend and every time I've been there her house was clean. I was always in awe of her housecleaning skill til I found out she had a housekeeper that came in twice a week.
I figure that if I can afford it, why not? Right now while we are fixing up the house I'd rather put the money directly into the house, but once we get it fixed up it won't be draining money quite as fast. People are willing to work for that pay and I look at it as contributing to the general economy. The thing about having a housekeeper though is that you have to keep your clutter picked up so they actually have the elbow room to clean. This is a double-edged sword for the clutter prone though.
AJ
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
It's been said already, but nobody changes magically as a result of marriage. And expecting that is a false expectation that causes a lot of harm.
But the biggest issues in the early years of marriage, I think are the same things as in the middle years and the later years. Women often think that a man should know what they are thinking and what they want. If they have to tell the man, it makes it worth less (or worthless) when he actually does what they want. This is one form of non-communication.
Men, on the other hand, generally do not want to "discuss" anything. If something needs doing, they want to hear about it and then go do it. If it needs to be discussed, it is painful and annoying. If you bring a man a problem, he assumes you want that problem fixed, not talked about, explored, poked, prodded, understood, etc.
That is another form of non-communication.
And without communication, everyone just stews in their own misunderstanding of the situation until finally it becomes intolerable and you either have a fight or go your separate ways.
Having a fight is generally a good solution, especially if you get to have makeup sex afterwards.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
kat, I have the exact same feeling! I grew up in a family where we always had a maid. My mother's mother had maids, yardmen, everything. I too have the feeling that if I can't maintain the lifestyle I like by myself, then maybe I should go for a simpler lifestyle, however, I don't see the point in spending my life in menial labor when I could earn good money doing something else with that time, and pay someone generously to do work that I loathe.
So I waffle. When I find someone good, I'm so delighted naturally, that I wouldn't want to lose them, of course, and I pay a lot higher than the going rate. People who work for me all seem very glad to do so. They all seem to find it's a beneficial thing for them in their situation. If someone who works for me wants to go to school or find a job doing something more interesting than menial labor cleaning houses or doing yardwork (and who wouldn't?) I encourage that and do everything I can to help them do that.
So all in all I don't feel like I'm oppressing anyone. The lady who worked for Mama most of our lives was like family to us. We helped take care of her when she was old and sick, in coordination with her nieces whom she raised. She was really like a second mother to us, and we loved her, though there is no way we could possibly ever have matched her love for us which was truly phenomenal, and something beyond this life. It was a privilege to have her in our lives, one that I didn't fully appreciate until I was grown.
But it still doesn't seem quite right that someone should clean their own house and do all their own housework and then come over to my house and do mine too. I know what you mean, kat. I think I'll always feel funny about that.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"But it still doesn't seem quite right that someone should clean their own house and do all their own housework and then come over to my house and do mine too."
Why not? I fix my computer at home, then go to work and fix computers.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I have been trying to find statistics on cohabitation since they directly relate to me. Unfortunately I closed all the links because I unexpectedly had real work tossed at me. So I'm going off memory and not linking sources.
I am looking for a study that removes all of the lower income poverty level single mothers that cohabitate, which drastically skew everything to see what the statistics are on middle and upper middle class cohabitation. Some of the more informative studies I found were from Sweden and the UK.
Basically there has been such an increase in cohabitation since 1970 that it doesn't appear the statistics actually reflect what is happening today since there is a time lag. Some interesting ones though were that people who cohabitate for over five years do tend to eventually get married (I couldn't find a divorce rate though) Another interesting one (in the UK study) is that people who cohabitate before marriage only have an increased divorce rate after 10 years of marriage. I wonder if they factored in the time cohabitating before marriage if the stats would come out more equal.
Kayla if you can google up some more stats I'm all ears.
AJ
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:people who cohabitate before marriage only have an increased divorce rate after 10 years of marriage.
I'm not sure what this means - that people who co-habitate have the same stats as non-co-habitors for the first ten years, then after ten years, the rate goes up?
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
That is the way I took it. But it was in England or Sweden too. I'll look for it again today as I get a chance.
Steve and I were discussing the entire topic over the weekend and came up with a couple of interesting ideas and realizations of what we do to attempt to keep a clean house. (I know our clutter level would drive Mrs. M. nuts)
I'll post as I have time here at work.
AJ
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Well, we know how wierd the Swedes are.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Banna, I can’t give you links, but I can tell you what we learned when I did my certification class for marriage-prep counseling. Couples who live together before marriage have a significantly higher divorce rate. However with couples who have lived together for four or more years the gap narrows considerably, and if the couple had lived together more than (7?) years there is no statistical difference.
I tend to trust the studies we read, since they were done with the intent of finding ways to strengthen marriages rather than the intent to prove any sort of political point. (They also included all the raw data, descriptions of methodology, etc. But that wasn’t included in the books we bought and got to keep, so I can’t access it any more.)
Edit – but I do seem to remember that they looked at socio-economic class and the general trend (cohabitation = higher divorce rate, over 4 years cohabitation the gap narrows) held true across class lines, education level, etc. My memory of that part is kind of fuzzy, though.
I wouldn’t worry too much about the statistics -- they aren’t predictive for individuals. You and Steve need to make your decision based on your own relationship. Besides, it’s too late for you to decide whether or not to live together pre-marriage. Your decision now is whether or not to marry post-living together.
[ September 08, 2003, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Yeah but I'm an engineer and so is he, and we like to know our statistics.
The problem is that most of the statistical studies I've seen done, were done by the ultra-conservative right who had an obvious agenda. I was trying to find out what the stats said at a less blatanatly biased level. I'm more inclined to believe what dkw says than the stuff I've had thrown at me before, because of the lesser bias.
I'm not particularly worried about Steve's and my relationship at the moment. Particularly since he didn't blow up when this weekend I dropped a paint can on the floor and it exploded (in the wrong room.) I was mad at myself but he really wasn't upset at all. How he puts up with my accident-proneness I really don't know.
Steve and I were talking about dealing with life/relationship strategies and came up with a few that we do. I've said before we are both slobs. We put trash cans everywhere, so that when we create trash, disposal is very convienent. If it is going to be inconvienent then we tend to not throw it away and the clutter piles up. Another thing we have done is have Lysol toilet cleaner and a toilet brush in both bathrooms. The toilet cleaner sits on top in a high visibility site. That way if we notice it is getting dirty we just give it a shot of cleaner. You only really need one toilet brush, but we were too lazy to carry it back and forth from one bathroom to the other. Ergo, two toilet brushes, one for each bathroom, and the toilets get scrubbed more regularly.
AJ
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: See, everytime he came home and began washing dishes, I felt like he was making a comment on the way I've kept the house today. Like he's judging me, washing the dishes is a way of saying "You didn't do a good enough job and now I have to step in." I get surly and irritated.
Wow. Right on, that's exactly how it is for us too.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Reading that is scary, because I think that's exactly what happens in my brother's house. I don't hear it from them, but from snippets from my dad and grandmother. "Your brother works so hard all day and goes to school, and when he comes home, he's the one that has to do the dishes because the house is a mess."
Anyway, I don't know if my brother is doing implicit criticism, but his family certainly is. The main thing I learned from that is never, ever complain to family of origin about home life.
[ September 08, 2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Oh, but if you don't complain, they'll say something like "You know Katie, she never complains, but you can just tell that this really makes her mad. Her husband must do something to keep her quiet about it."
In the absense of real gossip, the truly dedicated will make it up out of whole cloth.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
How do you feel in general about getting married, and moving into a location that previously belonged to one of the people alone?
Is this a critical error? Does this kind of situation cause more marital discord than both people moving into a place that neither has lived before?
AJ
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
TO be fair to my brother, I have no idea if he is saying anything. What I heard could have been completely made up. Heck, I don't know.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Banna, when I married my husband, I moved into the house he bought with his first wife. Actually, since we didn't want to live together before we got married, and I needed a place to live and work from home, he moved out (took his clothes and stuff and stayed at a friend's house for the 6 weeks until the wedding)and my son and I moved in. That was a little weird.
Fortunately, after trying to sell the place for a year, he got an offer on it and sold just weeks after the wedding. So I didn't have to live there long term.
But to be honest, it wasn't that he bought it with her. It was because I plain didn't like the house. It was dark and had a tiny kitchen. And it came with three adventurous cows who liked to break the fence and get into the pastor's garden next door. It was fun for a little while, but I'm not a country girl. Give me a real neighborhood any day.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Banna, we had exactly that problem. Kristine moved into my condo after we got married. We were going to be moving within 6 months, so I didn't think anything of having her keep most of her stuff in storage. I just didn't see the point in doing a lot of work just to undo it all in a manner of months.
That was the stupid, inconsiderate me thinking and not the wonderful, considerate man I am today.
She was very uncomfortable living in a guy's place with none of her things surrounding her. She's always considered her home a safe place from the world. Even though we were married and it technically was our place, it wasn't really hers and she couldn't feel truly at home. Things were much better once we moved into "our" house and we decorated like we wanted to as opposed to just one of us.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
When my dad married my stepmom, he moved my brothers and my stuff into her house. They did try to have a mix of stuff in the house, but it was still mostly hers. They thought about selling it and moving closer, in part because of the ward. She had been in the ward before for fifteen years before she and her husband divorced. She was occasionally called Sister Peterson occasionally two years after she married my dad. They changed the phone number finally because they kept getting telemarketing calls for her ex-husband.
What did they do? My dad remodeled - tripled the storage space, redid the kitchen, doubled the size of the living room, added a few walk-in closets, redecorated the whole place, and created a deck and patio in the back, which included extending the roof to match and landscaping everywhere.
[ September 08, 2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
zgator,
I think you just summed up my friends' problem in a nutshell. The other problem is that he doesn't really want to leave his comfort zone and actively start looking for a new dwelling. He's perfectly happy where he is. There are some other considerations, like whether she might be downsized in the next 6 months. However even with the downsizing I know they could afford a much nicer place on his salary alone without cramping their standard of living or even cutting into their savings.
I know they both want children, and I think she might be able to bring the concrete reality of the situation home for him, not by getting pregnant, but by saying ok, since we only have two bedrooms here, your computers are going to have to go because this will be the baby's room. I suspect threatening his computer access will get the point across, even if children are much farther in their futurem and perhaps give him the motivation to move.
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*runs off to create anonymous log in*![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Understanding each other's timing is very good.
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That totally makes sense. I apologize for asking - I should have thought of that. ![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
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