I think it's important to say this. I have, for quite some time now, had conclusive proof that you were posting as Duragon. The recent spate of posts about you had nothing to do with me. In fact, for the last few months, I have just played along acting like Duragon was a new member, and treating his posts, and him, quite well. I'm sure you agree. I do admit to wanting to meet with you as a final proof to myself, but I had not planned to 'out' you even after we met, though I would probably have asked you what the point of the masquerade is.
You were mostly respectful of people's opinions, although you still occasionally switched gears to nasty and vindictive at odd moments. I have come to believe that this is just part of your personality, and you would probably act the same way in person, so it wasn't something to make a big deal over. We all have weird stuff that comes out in our posting, if we hang around long enough.
Well, now, your veil has been pierced once more. And here is an opportunity for you. As Ralphie pointed out, she was liking Duragon. I found Duragon a tolerable member of the board, and even went out of my way to be nice. Here is your chance. Drop the stupid pretenses. Stop lying. Just start posting as Kevin, or whatever. There is no reason to keep up any charades.
No one is going to come after you. If anyone gives you crap, well, we all get crap here from time to time no matter who we are. Just let it slide off your back. Try to be a freaking human being for a while. I promise, the welcome will eventually be there.
If this is beyond your ability, well ok. Some of us are too broken to ever really get fixed. I am way past being angry at you, and have progressed to just being sad at how broken you appear to be. But you could prove me wrong even about that, and I am open to admitting wrongness. I do it all the time.
Here is an opportunity. What will you do with it?
Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :
*bump*
What does everyone else think? Am I off base here?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I think it's a pretty good idea, myself. Looks like a good chance to start over.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Yeah, I suggested that in the other thread. I would welcome him here as himself. Everthing he said as Duragon was tainted for me by his deceit.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I think you aren't getting responses, Slash, because the n00bs have no idea what Kevin's history has been and the older jatraqueros are trying to studiously ignore it.
I can understand why. It's a tired subject, and it usually comes to nothing.
However, considering that 1) Kevin has been outed once again as Durango (e-mail me for further information, if you doubt); 2) he was able to be a fairly decent poster as Durango; and 3) that the cycle will continue over and over again ad naseum, then it's as good a time as any right now to nip it in the bud.
Kevin, I already made my schpeel in a different thread. If you do return, as I'd bet good money you will, please just do yourself and everyone else a favor and not try to hide your identity.
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
You will always be yourself, no matter what nick you use.
"Do you like me now?"
Tries on new mask.
"Do you like me now?"
"How about now?"
No, not really. Who cares about the damn mask. It isn't real. Is that what you want to be all your life? The man behind the curtain? Think about this: until he came out from behind the curtain, he never had any friends.
If you are trying to gain favor, all posting under a new name does for you is give you a clean slate, for a while. But it is false. And when we find out it is you, yet again, it irritates us, yet again.
It would be much better to get your clean slate honestly, by sincerely asking forgiveness if you hurt someone. Believe it or not, we would actually be far MORE impressed by those actions than by sneaking in under some new nick.
[ September 12, 2003, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Amka ]
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Excellent post, Slash.
And I agree with what Amka said, too.
**Ela**
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I have no idea what happened and any threads that may have pertained to or had info about the subject have been deleted! Rrrr.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I'm living proof that a poster can be an ass and still end up being fairly well-liked. Duragon didn't bother me at all (I missed whatever the current kerfluffle was, thank heaven), even though I knew it was Kevin all along.
I just didn't care.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I just want to say that I love the word 'kerfluffle'. Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Olivia is a great word coiner. She is responsible for squicky, I'm pretty sure, and barbelicious and I know there are more that I can't think of. Yeah, kerfluffle is a great one! You go, Olivia!
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
*ponder* I'm pretty sure I've heard squicky before I got here.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Brettly, you only seem to post on a couple of threads. What's up with that?
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Ahh. Thanks for the explanation.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I did not coin 'squicky' or 'squicked' though I MAY have been the one who brought it to Hatrack. I actually got it off Mighty Big TV, among other things. I admitted it before--as soon as someone congratulated me for making it up.
I do, occasionally , come up with a good one. 'Uberwench' was mine. Usually I just spread the interesting ones Ron invents or I happen across.
But, thank you. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I've been saying squicky for a while.
Goober, however, is definitely mine.
Posted by Petra'sDaughter (Member # 5539) on :
Goober is my name for my kids when they annoy me...been using it for a while
Me, I don't understand all the kerfluffle. I would hazard a guess that much of what shows of a person's personality on a BBS would be foreign to people who associate with that person face to face. *dodging darts*. Part of the appeal, after all, is a sort of anonymity and ability to interact with whatever persona you chose. Having missed the whole Kevin/Durango scandal extraordinare, I might be missing the point....but I just don't get why I should care what name anyone uses...if they have more than one name...if they're using their grandma's name.... Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
After discussing this topic with others, I think that Slash is being more than fair. And Kevin should probably try to be more civil and accept the kind offer. That's about my two cents on the subject.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Yeah, but Petra'sDaughter - I brought it to Hatrack, baby.
It's my meme.
[ September 13, 2003, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
Yes but does anybody know MY alter ego?
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
...actually it's Sid the Sloth and I just made him today
[ September 13, 2003, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: odouls268 ]
Posted by Petra'sDaughter (Member # 5539) on :
What's a meme? Is it like jumping up and down and shouting, "Me Me Me Me!!!!?"
*scratching head*
Half the reason I don't participate in the big intellectual discussions is 'cause I'd spend half my time in a dictionary. Sometimes it seems like a contest to use the most obscure words. (and I'm really NOT a total idiot....I hope....)
Posted by Sid the SIoth (Member # 5654) on :
see?
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Meme isn't in the dictionary, or at least, it isn't in any of the several I've looked in. It might be in the OED.
Posted by Petra'sDaughter (Member # 5539) on :
Maybe it's elitist hatrack lingo to confound and befuddle us newbies. Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Although this was really a ploy for my "Morbo UNmasked!" game (to make people think I was a long-time hatracker instead of a devious newbie ), the definition is real.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Meme is, in fact, a real, honest-to-goodness word.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Memeticism is David Bowles' thang. Basically, it's the theory that there's no such thing as an original idea (or, at least, that they're incredibly rare). Memes are concepts and ideas passed from person to person. For example, if I introduce the wheel to three primitive people, and they go on to show it to other primitive people, memes are being spread by each of those people and eventually wind up being improved when a person combines hat meme with another -- then spreads that in turn.
What I just wrote is a rush job, and may be inaccurate. I'd suggest Googling memeticism and working it from there. I have my own problems with the theory and its unbelievable reliance on the idea of humans as tabulas rosas, but David's a firm believer in it.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Isn't she that woman on the Drew Carrie Show?
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
There's isn't a man who's talked crap about you that I haven't argued with, John. Very few people have bad opinions of you, despite your occasional surliness -- and the few that do have them because of I-told-you-so whines like that one.
But yes. You're right. There is conclusive evidence that Duragon is, indeed, Kevin. Feel better?
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
John, don't. Please. Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I'm not sure what you are talking about John, but weren't you the one who "proved" that they weren't the same?
I wasn't the slightest bit convinced at your test, but it seems odd that you're being so self-righteous after saying you changed your mind.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
hey, know what i did tonite? went out and shook my boo-tay.
it really helps put things in perspective, and i highly reccomend it.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Schpeel?
What is that, Ralphie? The leavings of a Jewish monkey's banana?
SPIEL.
And the first time I remember hearing 'Squick' was from Olivet.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Leto, most people here like you. Even most of us who try to shut you up occasionally.
You know why we want to shut you up occasionally (and it's not as often as you seem to think)?
Because you're occasionally an *sshole, and you hurt people by being one.
It's not some great crusade, it's an attempt to protect others from being hurt by you.
If you feel that they should just set their jaw and bear it as you've expressed before, you need to grow up and realize it's not solely other people's responsibility to adapt to you, but yours to adapt to them as well.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Is it possible that he came back as Duragon, not to continue his hijinks, but to start over without the baggage of the reputation he had earned? And that he denied being Kevin because he wanted to be judged for his behavior in this incarnation? After all, it seems to me that we have actually advised one or two newbies who came in with a terrible start to actually do this. Has Duragon been a jerk? Or hasn't he pretty much been OK in this incarnation, aside from his absolute hatred of John?
::ducks::
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Guys. John. Stop, please.
quote: Schpeel?
What is that, Ralphie? The leavings of a Jewish monkey's banana?
SPIEL.
And the first time I remember hearing 'Squick' was from Olivet.
I was spelling it phonetically. Gimme a break a'ready.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I think I'll leave my grow up argument in, you just amply demonstrated why it needs to be there.
I will always defend the right of everyone (not just others) to be less than perfect, because people are less than perfect (very much including me), and because that is not going to change. The specifics of how one is less than perfect may change, but never that people are less than perfect.
No, not everyone here is sunshine and roses, and that is exactly why you are an *sshole in many situations. People demonstrate their imperfections, and you jump all over them instead of choosing even to attempt to point them out politely. Then when other point out the human imperfection that you have in jumping all over people for being oh-so-unfortunately human you criticize them for doing what you had just done yourself only with at least an attempt at politeness.
You have a lot to contribute to the discussion, and a lot of good criticisms of people. However, you consistently bristle whenever anyone suggests, however kindly, that you might be less than perfect yourself. That's why I say you need to grow up, and realize that you have faults that may not be apparent to you, just as other people have faults that are not apparent to them (which you have such joy in criticizing them impolitely for).
Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
The fact of the matter is that Cedrios/kevin did a lot of things to a lot of people that really, truly hurt them. It was nasty, it was mean, and bordered on threatening violence.
Like Slash said, we've all moved on. Instead of ever taking Kevin seriously, we take him as a sad soul who's desperately looking for some kind of friend, and if it means creating new identities for a new chance then that's what he does.
During the last Leto/Kevin fight here I had an email conversation with Kevin in which I told him that if he would just make a general apology, and act as the person he really is, we'd learn to respect him. It might not come all at once, but we'd learn to respect him. I know I'd have no problem with it.
But when he masquarades as Duragon, then tries to make those who accuse him look stupid, it's hard to respect him.
That's why I understand where Leto is coming from. During their last fight, Leto was disciplined while Kevin got off scott free, despite being the worst offender of the forum rules.
But I digress.
Kevin, welcome back.
And be nice.
-- Pat
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
Leto,
How can you tell who is posting in character and who isn't? I just deleted "the hell" from that sentence. Does that mean I'm posting in character? Here is the thing though: I would probably delete it from my spoken sentence too.
I hold back on things I would say. Does that mean I'm living my life in character?
I'm not going to defend anyone's right to be a jerk, or be two-faced. I'm not even defending your current idiocy. When you say things like "Thanks, guys. Things like this are part of the reason I no longer feel welcome nor part of Hatrack." I want to throw up. Poor you. Nevermind how much support you got when things were tough after your accident. That even though we physically weren't there, we thought about you and prayed for you. You think those people just disappeared when things weren't so dire?
Because of the actions of a small handful of people, you are willing to just throw away the rest of them? Your call, buddy, but it's a stupid one.
There, was that in character enough for you? Or out of character? What was it? Did you ever stop to wonder if some of us refrain from posting some of the darker thoughts in our heads not because we have a reputation to keep up, but because we honestly and truly think about the feelings of someone else? And that we get irritated when people seem completely disregard the personal impact their writings might have on the people it is directed. So they defend anyone who gets harsh treatment, even the person who was a jerk yesterday.
I know there are other issues here, John. And it may not be worth it for you.
But I would really rather have you here.
[ September 13, 2003, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Amka ]
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Petra's Daughter- Here's a bit more on memes. Posted by Leto II (Member # 2659) on :
It's a lot of things, Ami, and a lot of things I'm just not going to get into on a thread here or over some argument over Kevin's antics—which have become worthless to me. And I hate to say it, but:
quote:You think those people just disappeared when things weren't so dire?
In a manner, yes.
Please, don't take that the wrong way, and don't take direrct personal insult to it. I'm not talking about a person-to-person basis, because there are individuals who are definitely not so. However, do I feel unwelcome from Hatrack as a whole? Yes. Sorry it makes you sick.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
John, why do you feel unwelcome here? I know that you and Anne Kate aren't fond of each other, and I'm sure that there are other individuals here that you don't get along with, but it certainly *seems* like there are a lot of people here who are positively disposed toward you.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. I'll certainly drop it, since you'd rather not talk about it. If you think that I was telling you that you shouldn't have said something, though, you're reading something into my post that wasn't intended.
Posted by Petra'sDaughter (Member # 5539) on :
*jumping in the middle of an unrelated topic*
Thanks to all for the info on memes. I found it fascinating....and a possible tool for taking over the world. Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
*walks in* *scratches head* *makes this face: * Obviously this Kevin guy has had a big effect on the arcane past of Hatrack. Not a positive one. That's unfortunate, because I'd like to think that Hatrack is somewhat removed from the hack-n-slash mainstream forums.
That said, I don't belive in permanent exile and welcome all who put forward intelligent arguments. Although, it's not really up for me to decide such things... *shrugs* *walks out*
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
quote: Has Duragon been a jerk? Or hasn't he pretty much been OK in this incarnation, aside from his absolute hatred of John?
I really don't want to be a jerk myself, especially as I'm not an oldbie, and didn't know the Kevin that was here before, but this person was not being very nice to me... Yeah, I'll shut up now.
*leaves thread*
*bashes head against wall*
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
::pat, pat::
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:Like Slash said, we've all moved on.
Actually, it's pretty clear you guys haven't moved on, as evidenced by the fact that people are still concerned about getting Kevin to admit who he is and such.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Tres - People have moved on from the intense hatred felt by his very presence, the need to blackball him whenever a pseudonym is discovered, and the need to post all of his past indiscretions whenever he makes an appearance.
If you notice, nobody is mentioning anything specific.
However, people have not moved on from the fact that Kevin ends his pseudonyms in drama and accusation, like he did with Duragon, which negatively impacts the community. So, in an effort to make that particular cycle stop, they're letting him know that it's not necessary and he can simply post as himself because they are over the aforementioned things.
Dig?
Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :
Ralphie, stop trying to explain your lowbrow thought processes to a clearly morally superior being like tresopax. You aren't even speaking the same language.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Ralphie, do you want me to give a specific example? Let me know if you do, I'll immediately post it...
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
No, actually. That would defeat the purpose of my post, Raia.
But thank you.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
I dig, Ralphie, but only if everyone is actually serious about being over the whole thing now.
[ September 14, 2003, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
--I--
Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
Meh.
This thread is largely amusing because most of those posting weren't around for Ced's more infamous fun and games.
But Slash - I agree.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
OK, just checking... Sorry, I was skimming, not reading too carefully...
Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :
Yes, Tresopax, we get it. You are better than us, a true model of forgive and forget that we should strive to emulate in our pathetic angry lives.
Now go away.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
C'mon, Slash. There's got to be a nicer way to tell Tres that he's coming across as self-righteous.
Tres - Yes. You're right. Done and done. This thread may have needed it reaffirmed, but after rereading the posts it's clear to me that was made clear from the very beginning. I, personally, don't see why it would be necessary to make a point to censure people who have already offered an olive branch, with a few reasonable stipulations.
[ September 14, 2003, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
Toni, nicer ways were tried for at least the first year or two...
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I know. Tres is just, underneath it all, a nice kid. I hate being mean to him. Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I'll do it for you.
Tresopax Posted by monteverdi (Member # 2896) on :
Wow
a landmark hanging post !
Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :
Yeah, Ralphie, you're right.
It just took Monte showing up to remind me how tolerable Tres actually is in comparison.
Posted by monteverdi (Member # 2896) on :
I love you guys in White
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Y a vos en verde.
:yawns:
Is Kevin still doing the same ol' thang? Sheesh... step away for a few months and nothing's changed! Posted by JaneX (Member # 2026) on :
I've started using Hatrack slang in real life, too. When I used the word "squick" to one of my friends, though, her response was, "Did you just say it squicks you out??"
~Jane~
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
"squick" is in a homestar cartoon.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:Yes, Tresopax, we get it. You are better than us, a true model of forgive and forget that we should strive to emulate in our pathetic angry lives.
Now go away.
Oh, come on Slash. You know it ain't that easy to get rid of me!
quote:C'mon, Slash. There's got to be a nicer way to tell Tres that he's coming across as self-righteous.
Nah, don't worry. I've done this more than enough to know what sort of fun comments to expect when I give opinions like that.
[ September 15, 2003, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]
Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :
Monte:
Pomposity disguised in inscrutability is equally endearing.
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Yeah, kerfluffle is a great one! You go, Olivia!
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*![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
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