A few days ago, two buddies and I were talking about matters of God. In the course of conversation about Calvinism (myself being an ardent Calvinist) I came to this revelation. The difference between man and God is this: Man must make choices between right and wrong.
It says in scripture that Man has a sin nature. Scripture also says that God is sinless. When faced with a situation God's primary impulse will be the good thing, the moral thing, the RIGHT thing. However when Man is faced with a situation, Man must assess what is the right thing to do.
How do we reconcile Calvin's view of man's depravity, with the idea that we are created in the image of a perfect God? The idea that within every person there is both good and evil. A sin nature and the image of our Father. Within every man these two parts are at war. When we first come to Christ and the Holy Spirit comes to live in us, the process of Sanctification begins. This process is the gradual conversion of our sin nature to a goodly, godly nature.
Consider this. God created angels before he created Man. These angels were not created in His image. Lucifer, first among the angels. When Lucifer fell he took many angels with him. The angels did not have the two warring natures within them, they only had the goodly nature. However when they fell, so did there good nature. They became absolutely evil. So Man's dualistic nature, is both it's curse and it's salvation.
An interesting revelation for me. Rather boring to an atheist.
Posted by wieczorek (Member # 5565) on :
I think religion is a very interesting topic to bring to the table and I would like to discuss it...but I'm afraid that I'll have to sit out on this one. I've found that discussing my views on religion has lost me a couple of friends along the way... Nice topic, though...
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down"
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Interesting. I've been thinking about Calvinists all week, and curious about some things. (I'm not going to truts my Northeren European Baroque Art History professor in his asessment of any religion.)
If the angels only have the disposition to do good, do they have free choice? I mean - could they choose evil if they wanted to?
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
I though of that. Since they neither have the warring impulses they don't choose until they were offered the choice by God. Basically an either your with me or against me. I came to this conclusion because there is only one incident in which angels fall.
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
Athiest here.
I enjoy discussing such subjects on an abstract basis.
But, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it say that Man was created in God's image? I don't remember it ever saying that Man was created in God's perfect image.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I suppose the question for that, annie, would be: Do angels have a perfect knowledge of things? Could they do an evil thing thinking it is good?
Just for the sake of argument. I have a little different perception of the whole angel situation. Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
Erik- Yeah...so what's your point? I stated it as a postulate not as part of the theory.
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
quote: How do we reconcile Calvin's view of man's depravity, with the idea that we are created in the image of a perfect God?
Sorry, It just seemed to be central to your argument. Debate on.
Posted by wieczorek (Member # 5565) on :
Although my level of religious thoughts may be at the bottom of the barrel, one of my questions has always been this: in the Bible, are dinosaurs and little stick men running around in fear of their lives ever mentioned? It seems to me that since we have proof of the existence of dinosaurs but they're never mentioned in the Bible that it might be false...but I'm not very well versed in religious matters...
*looks around suspiciously* Who wrote the Bible??
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down"
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:
quote: How do we reconcile Calvin's view of man's depravity, with the idea that we are created in the image of a perfect God?
Sorry, It just seemed to be central to your argument. Debate on.
Yeah, don't interrupt, Mr. Atheist.
[ September 14, 2003, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
• In the beginning was God and the Trinity, they were all on equal levels but with different roles.
• God has no choices, he simply has an impulse and it is correct. He always follows his first impulse (that is always perfect).
• God’s impulse was to create man, but angels were needed so that man could achieve God’s purpose.
• Angels were created on the same level of God, but with choice and without his image.
• Satan had an impulse of pride and followed it. At that point, all angels in heaven had to make a choice toward God or against him. ( Before this point they were like Adam and Eve in the Garden before they fell).
• Those who chose to follow their sinful impulse were cast out of the presence of God… “God cannot be in the presence of sin”
• Without the presence of God, and without the image of God inside them, the fallen angels had impulses that were solely selfish.
• Satan rules over them, as he was once head angel in heaven. The demons all have choices for their selfish desires and do not have to obey Satan. But he has power over them and can rule through fear.
• After this God created man. On his level, With choice, and with the image of God.
• Man existed on a level with God (in the Garden), but fell when they ate the fruit.
• God could not be in presence of this sin, so they were cast out of his presence and out of the Garden.
• Unlike the Angels, man has the image of God, Therefore a redemptive quality, and the ability to have Godly impulses (of his perfection)
• So man lives in the world with constant choices between good and evil.
• God sent Christ into the world to finish off the redemptive process, so that we could be in his presence… cleansed.
• Because of the Image of God inside us, we are allowed an impulse toward perfection... in our case the acceptance of Jesus Christ, and the completion of his plan when we dwell with him in heaven.
Side notes:
Angels are not presently falling, they made the decision when Satan fell to stay with perfection of selfishness.
The idea of man can not work without the creation of angels and eventual demons. Satan provided the opportunity for man’s fall, and the constant strife that he experiences between evil and perfect impulses.
God does not ever change his mind… it is simply the next perfect impulse.
God, like the angels made a decision to restrict himself from the option of sin.
<--------More theory
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
How central to Calvinism is the doctrine of predestination? That seems to be all I ever hear about.
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
Sorry Erik didn't mean to dismiss your. The idea that Man is utterly depraved seems to contradict with man being created in the image of a perfect God. It never occured to me before because I was so conscious of my sin nature.
Anne- Not as central as the idea of the total depravity of man. I'm one of these weird syncretic Christians that mix all of the different philosophies.
[ September 14, 2003, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Ryan Hart ]
Posted by Willy Shmily Tiger (Member # 5647) on :
Annie, me too.
Hobbes Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote: in the Bible, are dinosaurs and little stick men running around in fear of their lives ever mentioned?
wieczorek, I should hope not, as primates and dinosaurs are seperated by tens of millions of years in the fossil records.
Side note: I always find it remarkable how many Christians (40%? A lot in any case) are sure they will become angels if they go to heaven, even though the Bible is specific that angels and man are two different groups.
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
Look at this. It's a pretty good definition of Calvinism. I actuall only ever agreed with a small portion of Calvin. Mostly with his ideas of depravity.
No problem here, Ryan. I just needed the clarification. Thanks.
<----Smiley added for "no hard feelings" emphasis.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I thought god was a PART of the trinity?
Father, Son, Holy Spirit?
...or am I thinking of a different trinity?
Posted by wieczorek (Member # 5565) on :
quote: wieczorek, I should hope not, as primates and dinosaurs are seperated by tens of millions of years in the fossil records.
>innocent five-year-old voice< Morbo, I said I wasn't well-versed religiously...hehe
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down"
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
The Bible doesn't mention cats, either, I don't think, that doesn't mean they didn't exist. Also, the Bible is a book for and about humans and their relationship with God. If dinosaurs didn't affect that, there's no reason they should have been mentioned. The Bible doesn't tell us that the sky is blue or the grass is green either.
Posted by Chris Warrent (Member # 5549) on :
Will some one actually analyze the theory as opposed to going off on irrelevant tangents....
mackillian: the theory doesn't deny that the trinity God is a member of the trinity. It was only stated to show that God's need for community on His level was met.
Posted by cyruseh (Member # 1120) on :
There are references in Job to great beasts. I do not have the references memorized, but I believe that they describe dinosaur like creatures.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Ryan, if you're an ardent Calvinist, how do you feel about the idea that man can "choose" to do good or evil in the first place?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Ryan, Man with free will and God with none is the exact opposite of Calvin's theology. Your claims are a bit confusing. You say you are an ardent Calvinist in a post that claims the opposite of what Calvin held and then later say that you only really agree with a little of what Calvin said. Could you clarify your position?
As for man having an inately sinful nature, that idea is hardly unique to Calvin. A few years before Calvin hit the scene, St. Augustine made that a part of his theology. Calvin definitely focused on it and emphasized it, thus leading to his doctrine of utter submission to authority as the only proper way to live. What Augustine only really stated, Calvin made one of his central points, that man is completely evil and will only do evil if left to his own devices. For Calvin, the only way for the "depraved" human to do anything good is if God more or less makes him, by imposing grace on him. I'm willing to bet that if you really take a look into the whole "man is completely depraved" philosophy, that it negates the idea of free will. At least, it always has.
I'm more drawn to the Heresiarch Pelagius's point of view that says that man is capbable of doing good of his own free will and that God's grace - in it's Christian form - is not a necessary condition for the comission of good works. With Pelagius, I believe that there are plenty of people who were not Christians, including the Christian-venerated Biblical patriarchs, who performed good works without the Christian version of grace being bestowed on them. I myself would deny the Christian God's grace if it was offered to me, and yet, I don't find myself roaiming through the streets raping and murdering at whim. Nor do I find myself completely motivated by the fear of punishment, as I also perform good acts in anonymous contexts. So either God is forcing Grace upon me against my will, thus negating my free will, or I perform good acts and refrain from bad ones without the benefit of his Grace.
Man's nature as completely depraved is not a valid, unquestionable postulate for one very basic reason. It is a testable hypothesis. It provides predictions that can be confirmed or denied. I find that, taking into account the best experimental and anecdotal evidence I have of human nature, that such a claim is beyond untenable and crosses the line into the absurd. Of course, I am always willing to consider more evidence. If you have any scientific evidence to back up your claim, I'd be glad to hear it.
[ September 15, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
As a side inquiry, do you agree with Freud then, that you deep down want ot kill your father and have sex with your mother? Have you come to terms with this fundamental underlying dynamic of your relationship with your parents?
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Nice topic, though...![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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