quote: A recent poll indicated that nearly 70 percent of Americans believed the Iraqi leader probably was personally involved. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Tuesday, "I've not seen any indication that would lead me to believe that I could say that."
But Saddam Hussein gassed his own people.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Pffft. Iraq? Afghanistan? Those countries are so yesterday. You gotta keep up with the times, baby.
[ September 17, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
The Call of Canada grows louder.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Let's not forget the president was in on this little scam as well:
quote:President Bush said Wednesday that there was no evidence that former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was involved in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, disputing an impression that critics say the administration tried to foster to justify the war against Iraq.
P.S. Sorry for starting a duplicate thread. I usually check these things, but I was at work and got a little lazy. Thanks Kayla and Stormy for saving my arse.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Why don't you shut up and leave, Danzig. Why would you possibly want to stay in America?
Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
ok, where'd the nuke thread go...
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Maybe Danzig is saying that he wants the U.S. to invade Canada, not that he wants to immigrate there.
Hey, Canada has oil too right? Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Because I have a nice scholarship to my university, and Canada has its own problems. If there was a country that I could actually be proud to live in, I would move there.
Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
Come to Australia, we're fairly nice here.
Got good sun, too. Posted by Youth ap Orem (Member # 5582) on :
Little Nemo lives there too!
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
That's tempting, Troub. I *have* always wanted skin cancer Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
*Southpark music* Blame Canada, Blame Canada, Blame Canada!
Posted by Jerryst316 (Member # 5054) on :
quote: Why would you possibly want to stay in America?
You know there are arguments that simply get on the nerves of people and this is the for me. Leave america for questioning its authority and wondering if we could be better? That makes little to no sense and obviously has very little truth value. I can understand both sides of the Iraqi question, and while I have my own views, telling people that disagree to simply leave is not only insulting but very elitist. We are a country of diversity, where everyone is free to speak there minds. In fact, I feel that in a representative republic like ours, its our duty to tell our leaders when they are wrong.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I thought Little Nemo lived in Slumberland.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Is that what they're calling it these days?
Posted by Nothing Really Matters (Member # 5685) on :
The great thing about America is that if you don't like how it's run, you can work to change it.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Hey, Canada has oil too right?
Nope, you guys already bought it.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Actually, Canada happens to be sitting on the world's largest known hydrocarbon resource – the Alberta oil sands. There's enough goop (that can be turned into oil) there to meet current global demand for almost a century.
And it's not as though we aren't already one of your top four sources of crude, along with Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and Mexico. (All of which supply a comparable amount of crude to the US, though SA supplies the most).
>> Why don't you shut up and leave, Danzig. Why would you possibly want to stay in America? <<
Isn't democracy supposed to be about listening to those who disagree with you, rather than telling them to leave? Just a thought, you know.
Of course, if I were to go to the US, the customs folks might well put a little red flag on my file, so it's for the best that my travel plans for the forseeable future do not include America.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Except that all he ever says is how Canada looks better every day. So if he likes Canada so much and thinks the US is so bad then shouldn't he move to Canada? Oh wait, Canada has its own problems... Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Or perhaps he should remain in the US and work toward making it more palatable for him to live there?
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Hey Troubs, that doesn't sound like such a bad idea actually.
Australia:
1. Speaks english 2. Has lots of beaches and good surf 3. Has a good climate 4. Doesn't have Bush as a president
I have a couple questions though. First, how hot are the women? And second, whats the economy like right now for software engineering? Finally, how secular is it?
I wouldn't be able to move there right away, perhaps never, but it does sound tempting.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Australia may not have Bush, but they do have Howard. You're better off moving to New Zealand.
(Which I am considering, and I live in Canada )
Posted by Shartae (Member # 5688) on :
Well that was wierd!
Im my personal opinion, I do think he was involved.
Most of this war was a little family matter that happened a while back when Saddam tried to assassinate Pres. Bush Sr. and Bush jr. is trying to get back at him.
Personally involved "oh yes". *snort snort*
*in addition to the horrid things Saddam has done to his own people*
He made a human grinder for one of his sons and tested it by using his own people (what a leader)
Made alot of his own people human sheilds!!!
what the crap is that?
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
quote:The great thing about America is that if you don't like how it's run, you can work to change it.
You can certainly say that, but that does not make it true in any practical sense. Were I willing to dedicate my entire life to fixing one of a host of problems that should not even exist in the first place, I might be able to do something about it. Or I could not only have no effect, but not even enjoy the limited time we have on earth. Frankly, I feel that just sitting on an Internet forum and complaining about things is just as likely to change them, and less work than any of the other ways.
newfoundlogic, the main point was my scholarship, not that Canada has its own problems. Also, saying that Canada looks better every day does not mean that I currently think it is actually better than the US. Perhaps after I graduate, I will see if Canada's drug laws continue to be relaxed. The other main factor, not being jerks to the rest of the world, probably will not change, although if it does I will certainly take that into account. If Canada and the US both stay the same, maybe in five years I will live in Ontario or British Columbia. The Canada has its own problems is basically saying "a plague on both your houses."
To address an issue that will probably come up, why do I feel the right to complain if I refuse to even try to make things better? Basically, because I did not cause this situation, so I should not have to fix it. Nor am I able to do so; I might otherwise clean up other people's messes. I was unable to vote for anyone in office, or any of the politicians who passed the laws I dislike, and even if I had, it would not have made a difference. Representative democracy does not work; the representatives are not affected by the people. In case you have not figured this out, we mean nothing to them. We are statistics. They do not care about us; they do not even care about issues. All they care for is power, be that in the form of corporate bribes, reelection, or for the more high up, global hegemony.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Ah, one of the 70%er's. Frightening.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Australia will not work; your drug laws are just as bad as the United States. If Canada had lower taxes or easily available guns (which America is fast losing) there would be no contest.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Now let me get see if I can remember how it goes...
Tune in, turn on and drop out!
Whoa, dude, so Timothy Leary...
Don't mind the fellow drooling in the corner, the rest of us will try to remain sober and make this a better place.
Posted by Jaiden (Member # 2099) on :
/tangent
I have a feeling people think it's a lot harder to get a gun in Canada then it is.
If I wanted to get a gun illegally, I could do it in about 2 hours.
If I wanted to get a gun legally, it's about 3-4 months (depending how quick the government is and how quickly you get things done)
You need to take the Canadian Firearms Safety Course (CFSC) (and pass the test). You can take that at many many different places- it's usually about a weekend in length. Then you need to get a license for your gun.
To get a license for a possession and acquisition of firearms, you need a picture (with your signiture and someone who can identify that that is you on the back). Two people (other than a spouse) must sign a statement confirming that they have known the applicant for at least three years and to the best of their knowledge and belief that the information in the application is true and that the applicant does not pose a threat to public safety. The applicant also must provide the name, current address and telephone number of every spouse or common-law partner with whom the applicant has lived during the past two years. If their whereabouts are unknown, the applicant must make a written statement (on the form) to that effect. (Spouses and common-law partners will be notified about the application- I love that part )
And there is a minimum 28-day waiting period... *gasps*
And surprise, surprise- you need a $60 cheque.
Uh oh... there are additional requirements for restricted and prohibited firearms; so if you want to own a machine gun, beware! You may have more forms and qustions to answer!
Guess what! Even minors can get fire arm licenses (with parental consenct). My 15 year old cousin is the proud owner of a firearm that he uses for hunting. It was given to him by his parents for his 14th birthday...
You need to renew your license every 5 years or so (I can't remember the exact time line).
It's a license. You need a license to drive a car. Here you need a license to shoot a gun. I do have my gun licenses. I do hunt (*drools for vension*).
My one aunt wrote the test many years ago (about 20) and at that time you didn't even need to be able to read. I'm not positive that that is the case now (I wrote it in a school setting where we could all read), but it's a funny concept to me.
/end tangent
[ September 19, 2003, 05:17 AM: Message edited by: Jaiden ]
Posted by Sal (Member # 3758) on :
quote:The great thing about America is that if you don't like how it's run, you can work to change it.
Now that is what I would call a conspiracy theory. Most effective, too.
Even though it's perfectly true, linguistically. You sure can work, and work, and work, and...
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Grr this whole topic annoys me so much that whenever I hear about it on the radio or TV I change the channel.
The Bush admin never claimed that Saddam was directly involved in 9/11.
They DID claim that he had current links to Al Queda. The two things are similar but not identical.
The media appears to be spinning it so that the Admin is retracting that there were links to Al Queda even though that isn't what any of the administration people have said.
I don't know whether there were Al Queda links and I don't particularly trust this Administration, and it annoys me that the media has spun the "no links to 9/11" to "no links with Al Queda" because it means the latter is much less likely to get thorougly investigated.
AJ
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:Except that all he ever says is how Canada looks better every day. So if he likes Canada so much and thinks the US is so bad then shouldn't he move to Canada? Oh wait, Canada has its own problems...
It may also be that the anti-American seditionist in question has family or friends in this country, or a familiar home that he doesn't want to leave. Just throwing out some wild, unlikely possibilities. Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
The current Administration has much stronger ties to AlQueda, especially if one considers the Saudi connection (which was deleted from the public version of the 9/11 white paper). Is BannaOj suggesting that Dubya&gang were behind the attacks???
[ September 19, 2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
BannaOJ - the Bush administration claimed strong links between Iraq and terrorism, and then spoke out against Saddam. While Bush & Co. may never have said the words, they encouraged the connection.
Note that although requests for proof of direct connections have been made, constantly, since a month before the war began, this is the first time anyone in the administration spoke out to clear up the matter. It didn't meet their needs before to do so, and it may have been too late to admit it now.
There is no doubt that Saddam needed to be brought down. But the American people were given the distinct impression that attacking Iraq was a major step in fighting the terrorists that were responsible for 9/11, and that simply wasn't true. There was no compelling reason for Saddam to be brought down right now, not when we had more pressing problems. But Bush needed to be seen doing something dramatic about terrorism, and finding the actual terrorists is more of a long, drawn-out, police-type thing. A war, now, that's showy.
[ September 19, 2003, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by Jeni (Member # 1454) on :
What's the motive of finally coming out and setting this straight at this point?
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Maybe I'm not making my point clearly.
Dubya isn't denying the Iraq-terrorist connection.
He is very specifically only denying the Iraq-9/11 connection.
The media is taking this to mean that he is denying the Iraq-terrorist connection.
If you look extremely closely at the language of what all of the administration members have said, they are all very specific and only deny specifically the Iraq-9/11 connection.
The media is extrapolating this to be a broader denial than it actually is.
As if Bush has made a mea culpa when he hasn't.
The obfuscation bothers me. Either way somehow Dubya is not being held accountable for producing facts and being let off the hook.
AJ
[ September 19, 2003, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
It's interesting, because that's the first thing I had to tell people when I got into a versus-type discussion about Iraq. They'd always bring up Iraq's connection to September 11, and I'd always shoot it down.
I don't see how pointing to the other terrible things Saddam did has any bearing on his connection (or lack of connection) to September 11. He was a bad guy, but even our own government says he wasn't involved.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Unless Canada was awful to start with, which I doubt is this case, then all the times that it looks better and better from an American point of view must meant that it is better now. In fact so much better that its more important than scholarship, which I find hard to believe are completely limited to the United States. Oh, the issue is drugs...
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Sopwith, if the rest of you manage to make this a better place by the end of my life, I will admit that I was wrong. Until then, I say screw it.
newfoundlogic, Canada has grown a bit better, but mainly it is America that has grown worse. Also, only one of the issues is drugs- the other, which is actually more important, is that Canada does not go around starting wars where its citizens die. Also, given that America is the strongest nation on earth, it disgusts me that we feel the need to lie about our motives. If it was oil, say so. If it was revenge, say so. It was not for the Iraqi people, because otherwise the administration could have said that instead of WMD. It looks more and more like there were no WMD. 9/11? Yeah right. A country that acts unilaterally annoys me, but that is sometimes necessary. A country that lies about its motives fills me with nothing but contempt.
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