If a new member or someone I think of as a liberal posts the "b" word or a certain hand gesture, I find it offensive and have been known to blow the whistle on them. But then I feel reluctant to do so if someone I think of as a good Mormon, working for a Mormon institution, does so.
I'm also paranoid that I posted a link that I didn't read in its entirety which may well have had offensive content. If so, I apologize. Anyway...
There was also Ralphie's forbidden link, which I found very funny and didn't report, though apparently someone did.
So what do you think, is the offensiveness of a word, gesture or phrase really dependent upon who says it?
[ September 24, 2003, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
Oh, let me be the first...
--I--
Posted by Julie (Member # 5580) on :
Totally. I don't know if I could justify it, but I definitely find myself thinking things are inappropriate coming from one person but not from another.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
It's like : why is network television evil, while Monty Python's flying circus is enlightened?
Why is anything starring Chris Rock too stupid to be worth my attention, but I'll sit glued to Strong Bad for hours on end?
Why is Thomas Kinkade a sellout but Andy Warhol brilliant?
The world may never know.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Annie,
I can't stand Andy Warhol. I think he's empty, and any brilliance was temporary.
The myth of Andy Warhol evaporated for me when I learned that spent his entire life living with his mother. It's like Katharine Hepburn - no she wasn't this incredibly brave woman who bucked tradition, she just stayed a child all her life! She didn't rebel by not getting married and doing whatever she wanted anymore than a fifteen-year-old rebels by not getting married and doing whatever she wants. Katharine Hepburn had a rich, incredibly giving family who always gave her a base. Nice work if you can get it, but it isn't something for which to be admired.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I'm not sure any word is different to me, but certain types of things are, like certain jokes.
When you say the 'b' word, do you mean someone's whose patriarchal lineage is questionable?
Hobbes Posted by Head Ditch Digger (Member # 5085) on :
Pooka, Pat's other brothers and I have been trying to get him to see that the two are equal, whether online or in person it means the same. His reply was to give the actual sign.
We gave up.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
What the heck is the "b" word? Female dog? Illegitimate child?
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Wow, you blow the whistle on people?
I might, if something like the mauibabe/Ellen thing happened and no one else had reported it, but by the time I got to that thread it had already been reported.
I don't think I'd report a curse word, though. Not even if it were a conservative, where the hypocrisy would be even greater.
[ September 22, 2003, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: Kayla ]
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
You know, until this thread, I had no idea so many people reported posts.
Hmm.
edit: also, what Kayla said
[ September 22, 2003, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Leonide ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
So...um...
How many times has the whistle gotten blown on me?
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Leo, the only person who said anything blowing the whistle was the original poster. Who else do you think blows the whistle?
[Edit: Did I miss it somewhere? I'm terrible at this.]
[ September 22, 2003, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Kayla ]
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
mack, it's gotta be at least a thousand. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I'm sure people blow the whistle on me all the time.
But I'm cute and fuzzy, so Kathy lets it go.
<--- loves her some Kathy.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Blow it like you mean it, blow...
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I whistle at Mack. but I don't think that's the same thing.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I whistle at Bob t. Lawyer, but it gets me in trouble with Twinky.
[ September 22, 2003, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
I might have assumed without just cause, Kayla when pooka talked about people who had blown the whistle on Ralphie's questionable link, it just struck me. I didn't figure that people were reported that often, that's all. Except in matters of trolling or a veteran argument gotten out of control, I hadn't heard of or noticed any other whistle-blowns.
just surprised me. Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I laughed my bum off the first time I saw that "I'll cut ya!" link of Ralphie's.
And HDD, Pat could give no response more appropriate. Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
O_o People reported that link!?! But it was so wholesome... Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Ralphie, I whistle at half the board. And some of the men, too!
(Uh oh, I wonder if that will be me blown. The whistle, you freak!)
(Oh, I wonder if someone blew the whistle on me the other day. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about, Ralphie-sorority-babe.)
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
Oh, i thought pooka was referring to the link that Ralphie posted the other evening...completely forget what it was, but she put a disclaimer on it, something like "not for everyone!" although not that at all.
'member?
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Some jerk (it took a lot for me not to say ass just then. Aw damn! I said it! ACK! I swore AGAIN! I'm an incurable potty mouth! o_O) whistled at me running today.
And yes, I gave him the finger.
Posted by Jexxster (Member # 5293) on :
Sort of off topic, so feel free to kick the n00b.
You know, being the nice little Mormon boy that I am, I always heard growing up that thinking a bad word is just as bad as saying it. Can that be so? I think that is a bunch of crap. For instance, I have thought all sorts of violent thoughts about just how I would relish beating the snot out of some folks before, but I didn't do it. So was thinking about doing it just as bad as if I had done it? If so, well, frankly I'm screwed.
Okay, more on topic here (the original topic).
I think that we pretty much invent our own offensive words. I don't think it has anything to do with who says it, but with ourselves. I always grew up thinking that certain words were "bad" or vulgar. Then I served a mission in Guatemala and heard those words all the time (with a distinctive Spanish pronunciation) and they just made me laugh. Suddenly these offensive words were just ridiculous. And their Spanish counterparts, well, I just find those even more amusing. I suppose for the most part I no longer found them offensive, so much as I found them cheap and weak. The fact that the best insult someone could come up with was to tell me to "**** off" or call me an "hijo de la gran ****" said something to me about the mentality of that person.
And, for the most part, while I don't choose to use those words (with some occasional lapses of course) I suppose that they just don't seem offensive anymore, rather they just seem peurile. And that doesn't really have anything to do with the person saying them, but my own choice on how to perceive them.
Argh, I have no idea if that made any sense. If not, kick me again.
Edit: Of course, sometimes they just seem appropriate to use because of the inherent humor in certain words/gestures. But, that is just me.
[ September 22, 2003, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Jexxster ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Anyone else highly uncomfortable and slightly irritated that people seem to be whistling posts so often?
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Yes.
Actually, isn't pooka the only one who said she actually reported posts? (And even then, only liberals who use one of the b-words. )
Or have I missed something again?
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Yes.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Alrighty.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
::kicks Jexxster::
-0-
I'm also suprised to hear that the whistle icon is being used so frequently around here.
It may be against the TOS, but folks, if you haven't seen a mod delete a post or warn a member for a similar offense in the past, it's probably not worth their effort to chase it down. Some words or symbols are simply tolerated around here, even if they are impolite. You might not like that this is the case, but it's not your board. The people whose job it is to moderate have chosen to not get involved when the occasional finger gets flipped or when someone says "crap" or "pissed off" or "damn" or something similar. If they've ignored it in the past, what do you think they're going to do when you report it? They're going to ignore it again, because obviously they have more pressing concerns than chastising or censoring every person who posts four hyphens and an 'I'. But in the meantime, they have one or more e-mails that they will have to look through just to make sure it's not something really important.
Remember a year or so ago when the mods were seriously considering whether or not Hatrack was worth the trouble? Do we want to add to the workload?
Folks, save the whistle for the really serious stuff. The hateful insults. The spamming. The porn. The rest of the time, if you're so offended, say so yourself in a post or e-mail. And be open to the possibility that you may be alone in being offended.
Think of the mods!
Think of the kittens!
[ September 22, 2003, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Pooka notes at least one instance where other people whistled something.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Yes, exactly.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
And if a link has a warning that says it's borderline objectionable . . . if you know you are easily offended, why are you following the link?! You were warned--where do you come off feeling offended?!
Note: this is not expressly directed at anyone in this thread, but at the situation described here in which a link with a disclaimer on it was whistled. Seems like some people are just whistle-happy. Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
*whistles Icarus*
*whistles Ralphie for entirely different reasons*
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
quote:Anyone else highly uncomfortable and slightly irritated that people seem to be whistling posts so often?
yes.
apparently i am unable to convey my emotions through my posting. That is exactly what i was trying to express.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Actually, why is someone whistling posts making people uncomfortable?
I've done it a couple times, but I really think it was warranted. Not slightly racy links like Ralphie, er, Ralphie's, but stuff that honestly, truly doesn't seem like it should be here.
Definitely gratuitous whistling would add to the work of the mods, which we desperately want to avoid so they keep letting us play here, but why would you be offended at someone being offended?
It seems a bit like being told on, but what's the alternative? Those being offended should just be quiet and not say anything? That's hardly fair. Turned around, it would mean that any who want to be anything but Blues Clues rated should be quiet and not say anything. Blowing the whistle is one of the cogs in keeping the community balanced - it's still up to mods in terms of what stays and what doesn't.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Yes. But it can also turn into a bit like nagging the heck out of your mom, until she blows up and lays the smackdown on EVERYONE.
...and suddenly, the fun has stopped. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I haven't seen any indication that there was an inordinate about of whistling going on. If it was bugging Kathy or Kristine, would they tell us? I'd hope so. Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Geez, mack, it's only been what, a week, and already you don't recognize me?
Sheesh, next time I'll just use a bullhorn.
-Bok
Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
I thought the whistle just meant it was lunchtime. No wonder I've been eating so many sandwhiches.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I guess I lied when I said "i've been known to" since obviously no one knows.
If I say I've never done it to any of you, do you believe me?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Is it me or is there some McCarthy-istic thinking going on here?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Gosh darn it, what the heck is the "b" word?
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Bha'al?
-Bok
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Biodiversity?
Bastage?
Brain-munching ZomBie?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Bustamante.
She really, really hates Cruz Bustamante.
He is anathema to her.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
I used the word "Butthead" in a post, maybe two...
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I think Noemen is a filthy farging bastage.
edit: It would be really funny if that sentence had been filtered to that, instead of it being the original.
[ September 23, 2003, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Bok, then next time I use TWO fingers. Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:Anyone else highly uncomfortable and slightly irritated that people seem to be whistling posts so often?
Yes
Because I believe in discourse over punishment. I can't imagine blowing the whistle on anyone on this board, for no other reason that in my view, anything that is serious enough to tell the moderators about is serious enough to tell the police about.
In addition, I get the feeling that these whistles have been blown without warning. Tact would presume after a public statement about feeling generally uncomfortable, then a private e-mail to ask courtesy and to state that I'm seriously offended or affected, then a whistle blow, but if I ever blew the whistle, I'd start a new thread about it immediately because if so and so's behavior was affecting me, it would probably be affecting other people as well, and it would be better to expose and talk about the behavior so that everyone can learn.
I think whistle-blowing in this context is both lazy and almost ludicrous. I can't imagine a situation where I'd whistle blow in this forum. There are too many more civil options.
quote: Is it me or is there some McCarthy-istic thinking going on here?
From my POV, you call the SS on people you don't like. Yeah, I'm disgusted.
_______________________________________________
quote:If it was bugging Kathy or Kristine, would they tell us? I'd hope so.
Does anyone else see the irony in this statement?
_______________________________________________
But this does beg the question, I wonder if there is a correlation between whistle-blowers and death penalty adovocates, Or whistle-blowers and people who believe in punitive sentences. Or even religion. The entire idea of sending a silent call to a powerful body to smite a fellow member is eerie.
I think there is something there.
[ September 23, 2003, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*grin* Don't you think they'd blow the whistle on Hatrack if were doing too much of the whistling of posts?
Irami, there isn't irony because we aren't deleting each other's posts, we are informing the central authority. All your bits about communication still apply; they are just being done by the moderators rather than ourselves. You like the idea of a strong central government with the power and will to solve social concerns; this should appeal to you.
I DON'T like the idea of a strong, central government with that power, but I like it here for while I do not trust that power to career policians and strangers in it for the power, I do trust Kathy and Kristine.
Sometimes, calling attention to a post would cause greater damage. Every battle doesn't need to be refought every time.
quote:The entire idea of sending a silent call to a powerful body to smite a fellow member is eerie.
I think there is something there.
Irami, when the whistle-blowing feature appeared, your main concern was that it would be used against you. I have to say, this is not a flattering picture you are painting of the mods.
It isn't a death penalty. It's more like a letter to your congressman. Do you object to that kind of thing?
[ September 23, 2003, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:You like the idea of a strong central government with the power and will to solve social concerns; this should appeal to you.
I like the idea of a strong central government which loudly uses its voice to concern itself with society in a public manner. I support a government that is trying to convince children to read. I don't support a society where the President can send a parent to jail for not reading to the children, I like one where the President is unafraid to expound on the virtues of reading to children in the State of the Union.
When you blow the whistle, you are asking for a silent display of force. You are a mobster calling for a hit. It's like Arya in the last book of Martin's series.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:It isn't a death penalty. It's more like a letter to your congressman. Do you object to that kind of thing?
I'd rather see a letter to the person. Then a letter to the newspaper as well as a letter to the congressman.
[ September 23, 2003, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
A mobster calling for a hit is certain of the results that will played out. When Tony Soprano orders a whack, it isn't a request; it's an order.
Blowing the whistle is nothing close to an order. It's voicing a concern. This is not a public place - this is their living room. If you are at a party, you don't loudly confront someone over social faux pas(es).
---
What if the person didn't know it would be offensive? It's better to let the person in charge (and whose house it is) quietly speak with them instead of pulling them to the carpet for a public humiliation.
[ September 23, 2003, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:Irami, when the whistle-blowing feature appeared, your main concern was that it would be used against you. I have to say, this is not a flattering picture you are painting of the mods.
Well, no. I think I made that pretty clear seeing as how that distinctly isn't the case. Would it have been so hard to find this:
quote: Blowing the whistle is nothing close to an order. It's voicing a concern. This is not a public place - this is their living room. If you are at a party, you don't loudly confront someone over social faux pas(es).
---
What if the person didn't know it would be offensive? It's better to let the person in charge (and whose house it is) quietly speak with them instead of pulling them to the carpet for a public humiliation.
I've already addressed this.
quote:Tact would presume after a public statement about feeling generally uncomfortable, then a private e-mail to ask courtesy and to state that I'm seriously offended or affected, then a whistle blow, but if I ever blew the whistle, I'd start a new thread about it immediately because if so and so's behavior was affecting me, it would probably be affecting other people as well, and it would be better to expose and talk about the behavior so that everyone can learn.
In this forum, it starts with you voicing your concerns generally and publically, because if you are offended, you probably aren't the only one and it makes everyone else feel less alone in their concerns.
If someone starts a thread with the F-word. Are you going to blow the whistle, or are you going to reply, "We don't appreciate that sort of language here."
Katharina, I think you are on the wrong side of this one.
[ September 23, 2003, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Irami, you don't know what I personally do with posts I don't like. Do some research, dear, before you assume I'm on the wrong side.
Since the only research method possible is asking me, I'll pre-empt you.
1. Post right after. "I don't think that's really appropriate for here." 2. Blow the whistle. "Kathy, you might want to take a look at this." 3. Assure poster of their worth. "I'm glad you're here. Have you tried [funny thread of the day]."
Unless it's someone I know well, in which I'll threaten a swirlie.
Dang it, Ralphie is five thousand times better at this than I am, and she does it naturally and with the Funny.
[ September 24, 2003, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:1. Post write after. "I don't think that's really appropriate for here." 2. Blow the whistle. "Kathy, you might want to take a look at this." 3. Assure poster of their worth. "I'm glad you're here. Have you tried [funny thread of the day]."
And you don't see steps two and three just a little be disingenuous. It's the whole problem why girls in high school are catty, and guys just grunt and deal with it and have the situation over with. We figure out what about each other we like, and what about each other we don't, and work through it quickly and openly. The last two sentences are huge generalizations, btw. Don't spend a post being indignant about the analogy.
[ September 23, 2003, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
You don't like "I like you, but I didn't like that post"?
Not every disagreement is a war. ----- You've missed some of the excitement. I wouldn't dream of disagreeing with your generalizations, except to point out that depending the social group, it doesn't always end at high school.
You don't know me well enough to make your jabs have points.
[ September 23, 2003, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:Bustamante.
She really, really hates Cruz Bustamante.
He is anathema to her.
Ten points to Noemon.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Does all of this happen with the first post? I thought we are talking about three different actions. If not, don't you want to see the response before you wake up the Janitor?
[ September 23, 2003, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Ah, say it, Irami. Say you're proud of me. You know you want to.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
No, I'm disappointed. I think use of icon in those situations signals a breakdown in communication and ethic. I think it's icky, opportunist, childish, petty, and disrespectful to the mods.
[ September 23, 2003, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
No, that's not it. You're actually delighted with them. That's so sweet.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You know, I've "blown" that whistle exactly four times, for posts that most certainly deserved it. While I'm sure there ARE people who're easily offended, and tempted to report things that offend them -- it takes all kinds -- I don't think, based on the rarity of deletions around here, that it's a common event.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
My two cents:
In most cases, I think it is better to directly confront offensive, bothersome, or upsetting people. If someone bothers me, I will almost always prefer to tell that person how he is affecting me and to stop it. The amount of tact I use depends on the amount of respect I have for the offender. The only cases where I won't do this are if I think doing so might endanger me, if it is extremely inconvenient to me, or if I feel that my words will have no effect. The first two instances are almost never true online, and I am confident enough in my oratory skills to make the third instance rare (and even then I'll usually try).
So yeah, when my downstairs neighbor and his girlfriend are screaming at each other and throwing things through windows and bleeding on the concrete at the bottom of the stairs, I'll call the police instead of asking them to be quiet. And when that group of teenagers starts having a long, loud pool party at midnight on a Wednesday, I'll call the courtesy patrol instead of telling them myself that the pool closes at 10 on weeknights. But I can't think of a comparable situation online.
I think that blowing the whistle without any attempt at talking to the offender--at least on Hatrack--is not very polite. To me, whistle-blowing is what you do after other efforts have failed. Jumping straight to the whistle before even mentioning that you are offended is a sucker punch, especially if the person is unaware that he has been offensive.
I recognize that many people don't like being confrontational; I know many people who go to great lengths to avoid it. And, yes, these people should not be forced to do things that make them uncomfortable; neither should they be forced to put up with offensive behavior from others. So, if you really can't make yourself talk it over first, then you shouldn't feel too bad about jumping straight to the whistle. But I really think it'd be best for everyone involved if we could all make an attempt at discussion before alerting the authorities.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Post Report:
While somewhat weathered in appearance the post seems to be doing just fine. Rotting concerns were discovered to have been unfounded. A splinter caution is still in effect, but the protruding nail on the eastern side has oxidized to the point that it has crumbled away and is now flush with the surface of the post.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I can say I've never blown the whistle on anyone or any post that wasn't first informed that I found what they were saying to be offensive and innapropriate.
Which means if I haven't told you, seriously, that I didn't think it belonged at Hatrack, I didn't blow the whistle.
[ September 23, 2003, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
BTW:
Sorry about the interruption. I think that this has been a good, perhaps even needed conversation, but my mind wanders sometimes -- with predictable results.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
kat, that's good. Just so you know, that wasn't aimed specifically at you. Or anyone else, for that matter.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
There's only been two kinds of posts that have prompted me to the whistle-blowing. One, frankly, was Baldar, who was in a class by himself.
The other kind of post that has prompted the lunge is the very frank and explicit sexual descriptions and innuendo, usually trying to be passed off as humor. The whistle-blowing move then was a "think of the children" moment. I don't want to start a discussion about its appropriateness any more than I want to display porn in a high school. The discussion and decision-making has already occurred - it's not for Hatrack.
---
Zal, you're brilliant.
[ September 23, 2003, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Have you ever received any indication from the mods that anything was done? (Posts edited/deleted, someone saying they'd been reported to the mods, etc.?)
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:I think it's icky . . .
Why are you dragging me into this?
quote:I wonder if there is a correlation between whistle-blowers and death penalty adovocates . . .
No--or rather, at least not in my case--because I'm opposed to whistle-blowing in any but the most extreme situations, but I am in favor of the death penalty.
quote:It isn't a death penalty. It's more like a letter to your congressman.
It isn't either. It's calling your homeowners association when your neighbor puts up a clothesline or when it has been three weeks since he mowed his lawn, and I don't like that sort of behavior either. It's even worse here, though, because, as saxon pointed out, there's no real need to fear here, which takes away the fear of confrontation you might feel in real life.
While I agree with Irami's stance on whistle-blowing, I think some of his comparisons are a bit harsh and I don't agree with them.
All I want is to encourage people not to resort to anonymous whistle-blowing in situations where polite confrontation alone (whether in the thread or in an e-mail) might have the desired effect, or in situations where past inaction by the mods has made it clear that the behavior, while distasteful to you personally, is within the bounds of acceptability for Hatrack as a whole.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Kayla: Yes. Just twice. *thinks* Maybe a third time, but it would have been years ago.
quote:anonymous whistle-blowing in situations where polite confrontation alone (whether in the thread or in an e-mail) might have the desired effect, or in situations where past inaction by the mods has made it clear that the behavior, while distasteful to you personally, is within the bounds of acceptability for Hatrack as a whole.
Anonymous is a key-word here.
For the second, though, I don't see what's wrong with it. I mean, it's weenie, but it's more likely to hurt the person doing the chronic complaining that the one they are reporting. It isn't like the mods publish a tally of who gets reported the most often (although I would LOVE to see that), so the only stake is Kathy's good will. I don't think Kathy puts up with a lot of crap, so I don't see being a whiner being much of an advantage.
quote:While I agree with Irami's stance on whistle-blowing, I think some of his comparisons are a bit harsh and I don't agree with them.
Thanks for that.
[ September 23, 2003, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:For the second, though, I don't see what's wrong with it. I mean, it's weenie, but it's more likely to hurt the person doing the chronic complaining that the one they are reporting.
Agreed. I'm just trying to encourage people not to be weenies, and not to waste the mods' time.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Well, see, that's why you're nicer than I am. I just figured that weenie was its own reward. I didn't even think about the mods - that they might want to be spared weenieness.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Will someone PLEASE tell me what the frickin'-frackin' "b-word" is?
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
The female dog. Sheesh, Tom, you weren't kidding? I wonder if she reports them when they are spelled the goofy way Ralphie does it.
Also, what about Patrick and "go the frick away?"
It's the same thing, isn't it? Same basic intent, just changing the word slightly. Or Ralphies use of Jebus.
See, that's the thing I never got. The same people who told me not to cuss were saying "Gosh Darnit" and other fool things. The intent was the same. Even had the same beginning letters. Shoot. Fart/Fudge. Darn. Boogerhead. Why are these more acceptable than the words that the auto-censor would take out?
[ September 23, 2003, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Kayla ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It's b***h, I think.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
That's a good point, Kayla. Why aren't the substitute swear words as objectionable as the actual swear words.
The argument leads to more words being objectionable than more words being given a free pass, however.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Well, heck. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Or it points out the absurdity of reporting over-zealously.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
swear words = bad substitute swear words = not bad
"Hey! That's not right!"
THEN...
(1) swear words = bad substitute swear words = bad
--OR--
(2) swear words = not bad substitute swear words = not bad
---- Whether you prefer (1) or (2) probably depends on your swear word philosophy, but out of courtesy, it's up to the what the mods would prefer.
It has changed - there is a lot more swearing (real and otherwise) than there was before. Sheer entropy, maybe. I know I do a considerable amount of fake-swear-word brain-storming, which I'm now starting to feel guilty about.
[ September 23, 2003, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
quote: which I'm now starting to feel guilty about.
Ahh, then my job is done. And no whistle blowing was involved. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
That's only because I did some real-world swearing the other day, and I'm thinking the fake swearing was a gateway. It's probably a horrible sign that I only do the RWS to/about Pilkingtons. *thinks*
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
quote: I'm thinking the fake swearing was a gateway
Jebus, the next thing you know, you'll be doing crack and standing on the corner!
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Ahh, then my job is done. And no whistle blowing was involved.
Okay, that leads to a question. Do you use the whistle-blowing for stuff you don't like, or for stuff you are pretty sure the mods don't like?
Because, honestly Kayla, you blow the whistle on me for dagnabbit and I can just imagine the laughter ringing through Hatrack Secret Headquarters (HSH).
I thought the whistle-blowing was for the stuff that either the mods have clealy expressed a negative opinion about and do no want on the premises (the explicit sexual stuff), or for posts that were so completely Unmaking as to threaten nuclear war (Baldar again).
I know there is a way to ensure that no swear words appear on the site, so if they do appear, then the mods have allowed us the freedom to use them. In that case, it's a gray area. Speaking to the person is not only the polite thing to do, it's almost your only shot.
----
Is that why Irami and I differed so greatly in details while being (I believe) similar in desires for forum? He was thinking of a reader reporting what they find objectionable, while I was thinking of reporting what the mods find objectionable?
[ September 23, 2003, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Kat, the "no whistle blowing involved" was facetiousness. I'm pretty sure I've never blown the whistle. Even when Baldar was here, I don't think I would have used it, had it been available. If I'm offended, I tell someone. Of course, if they offend me, I rarely say anything, but I'll jump in if I think they are being unfair to someone else. And while some I might find some things too racy, I won't report those either. I'll remind them that there are 12 year olds here, but I won't report them.
I did write to Kristine once about Ced and to Kathy once when I received an e-mail from redskull that said he'd been spammed by people at Hatrack and it got him fired because I thought they should know about that, but I didn't think they'd be able to do anything about it.
But I seriously don't think the whistle should be used very often. The mauibabe/EllenM situation is one instance, maybe. And a spammer, like we had last year would be an instance, but not for the b-word. Heck, they're using the s-word on network TV these days. And every other word is used all the time (except for the f-word and then only in Schindler's List.)
[ September 23, 2003, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Kayla ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:It has changed - there is a lot more swearing (real and otherwise) than there was before.
Really? I was under the impression there was less swearing lately.
I wonder if there's any way to accurately determine which of us has the right impression.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I knew you were kidding.
Kayla, I agree with you. I hardly every use it. I have a couple times, though, and I truly, sincerely believe those times were warranted.
quote:Heck, they're using the s-word on network TV these days
This, however, is not a good reason for a policy.
Ick: I don't know - that was just my impression.
[ September 23, 2003, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Skipping to the end to let you know that the b-word I'm referring to is the one that could be used without scrutiny in a discussion about mating dogs. But when applied to females being unpleasant, I find it unacceptably misogynistic.
Bastard has a legitimate use. No, wait... oh well, you know what I mean. Here's a question, do you think Bastard implies a male more than a female?
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
i swear, i didn't see this thread before. pooka, is this your way of telling me that you blew the whistle on my pirate name?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Was that you, celia? Well, I guess I should have tried emailing you. I just get so jealous with everyone saying you are so cute all the time and... Now this really can be like an episode of Springer.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I have blown a whistle only once that I remember. That was in the midst of a heated discussion, where I was only posting on the "sidelines" as it were. The discussion was borderline between two people who strongly disagreed to begin with. One of them, to me clearly stepped over the line with a personal insult. Maybe I should have e-mailed that person and told them that I didn't think their statement was appropriate, but given the amount of vitrol that was going on I really didn't want to open myself up to that. I believe that person knew exactly where the "line" was to begin with since before that point through numerous posts they had been very careful to stay on the good side of it. Maybe it was cowardly, but I don't regret it and don't think I should have done it any differently.
The person who the insult was directed at didn't actually appear to be offended either. But, if I had been in that person's shoes I would have been greatly offended and my feelings would have been hurt. I also didn't want the thread to die and I felt that if a mod made a strong statment then, it would bring the thread back to more civility in what was a good thread, if heated. If it had gotten any worse, I suspect the entire thread would have probably been deleted.
My statement to our gracious mod was very specific as to my objection and I was very surprised at how quickly she reacted. I'm pretty sure that if I had it to do over again that I would do the exact same thing.
Normally, if it is a case where I feel the person would reasonably listen to a "manners" complaint I would post my objection in the thread for all of the world to see. In that particular case case feelings were already so heated that any "manners" objection would have been deconstructive rather than constructive.
AJ
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Blowing the whistle never really occurs to me. I'm glad that the option is there, and I think that there is certainly a time and a place for using it, but it's never been something I've thought to do when things have gotten heated. I'm the same way with a car horn though; I never think of leaning on it until after I'm out of the situation in which it would have been useful.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Nah, you're a loony.
(Edit: the above comment to Irami-- let me add a )
I only send an email to the janitor when I feel that someone has been put in danger.
[ September 24, 2003, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
My sister used to say there was never an excuse to flash high beams at someone (while we are on car analogies). I thought this was very odd of her. I guess she had a friend who wouldn't/couldn't fix a perdiddle (one headbeam out) so they spent a prolonged car trip getting flashed a lot.
Also, my husband was once the only one to get a question right in driver's ed, which was "What do you do if you see a kid chasing a ball into the street and you are moving too fast to stop or swerve?" The answer was "honk". I don't know if I got the context entirely right, but that was the gist of it.
Now the question is, is honking/flashing equivalent to using the whistle, or is it equivalent to swearing in the first place?
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
It can be equivalent to swearing, depending on how it's used. But it's not really analogous to the whistle because in the case of the horn/lights, you are directly communicating your displeasure to the offender, whereas with the whistle you are bypassing that level.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Oh, I don't really think that honking and whistle blowing are equivalent actions--it just occurred to me that I never think to do either one, and thought that I'd mention it. Honking is much more like posting back, telling the person that you didn't find what they wrote to be appropriate.
Edit--saxon beat me to the punch.
[ September 24, 2003, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Why the thread title has reverted: If we are going to treat substitutions as if they are the real word, I guess that would make it quite alarming and equivalent to the hand gesture thread.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Honking warns the person, blowing the whistle is silently telling someone else. They are not equivelent at all.
pooka, I think you are more comfortable telling someone else that you are uncomfortable than telling the person themselves. That's not unusual, but it's really okay to tell someone if you don't like what they are doing. You can phrase it politely ("YOUB, your name is definitely piratey, but I don't feel it is appropriate for Hatrack. Is there a variation you could use that would be funny and piratey but not offensive?"), or you can do it straight out ("What is up with the name? That's not cool."), but it is better to inform someone.
They may not realize it's offensive, and that way they don't get blindsided.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:Now the question is, is honking/flashing equivalent to using the whistle, or is it equivalent to swearing in the first place?
There is a furtive aspect of whistle blowing that has nothing to do with honking. I think that whistle blowing is closer to keying the car of a dangerous driver. At the very least, calling the police.
But this isn't real life. Nobody's has to worry about bodily harm. I think that's what disturbs me the most, \if people are blowing the whistle on a message board, how do they function in real life when the stakes are higher. The gesture wreaks of incredible entitlement.
In this setting, I think the option is inherently deceitful, and the extent it is used without specific warning is the extent that the person is being deceitful. Then again, if you can make excuses for yourself, as the saying goes, the devil will be satisfied with you if you are satisfied with him.
[ September 24, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Ah, wouldn't it be great if there were the equivalent of the whistle when driving. Though in real life you can call the zoning commission on your people-who-live-next-door, and chances are there will be something they can be written up on.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Too bad about the title change pooka--I thought that it was pretty funny before the revision.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:I think that whistle blowing is closer to keying the car of an possibly dangerous driver.
Your analogies would be a lot more persuasive if they weren't exaggerated to ridiculousness.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
kat, as we see, I have been outed in my whistle blowing. So whether it's private or not is kind of moot. And now whenever I post people will wonder.... Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Maybe whistle blowing is more like following the person home, beating them with a chain, and then setting fire to their house. You didn't go nearly far enough there Irami.
Oh, oh, I've got it. Whistle blowing is like rounding 6 million plus people up, holding them in concentration camps, and then sending them to the gas chambers. Clearly, if you've ever used the whistle, you are effectively on the same moral playing field as Hitler.
Yeah, that's the ticket.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
No, but it is like calling the SS.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
No, I think I'm going to have to go with genocide. It's much more like genocide.
[Edit--only worse!]
[ September 24, 2003, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:So whether it's private or not is kind of moot. And now whenever I post people will wonder....
Ah pooka, you lost me there. Creating speculation as to who is the mole is not the kind of mystique Hatrack tends to reward. It's much more fun to be real.
Come on girl, stand up if something bugs you. If it's worth complaining about, it's worth standing up against. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
The temporarily revised title (do I flatter myself to think this will drive crazy those who missed it) evoked memories of the Morbo unmasked episode, where there was also problems of a similar nature, followed by a round of "what has happened to Hatrack" and "nothing is wrong with Hatrack" threads. It was just a little too emotional.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:No, but it is like calling the SS.
You think the mods are like the SS?
That's hilarious.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
ok, sorry for the delay in posting, i just got out of class. pooka, i'm in agreement with saxon on this. i have, on a few occasions, emailed someone when i disagreed with their conduct. i have never blown a whistle. i do not think i would do so without alerting the individual to my concerns first.
i did not see any posts objecting to the name; i don't read every word posted here, though, so i could have missed a post. i did not receive any email concerning the name.
when the name was banned, i was a bit sad as i did love it dearly, but i know that i am a guest here. if our hosts feel it is inappropriate, i'm not going to argue. i don't expect everyone to agree with my opinion or sense of humor.
i believe that such administrative actions are performed based on the standards of our hosts and not on the pressure of the members of this community. in essence, since it was banned, i think it would have been banned eventually when one of the mods happened to notice it, even without being reported. you blowing the whistle just got it banned sooner.
i would have prefered to have gotten an objection from you, rather than an anonymous complaint to them. the more work we make for our hosts, the more time they spend resolving issues that sensible adults should be able to resolve on thier own, the less likely they are to continue to see this place as valuable enough to maintain.
next time just say something.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Well, it turns out I can't email Celia. I'm sorry I reported you and not Pat, though I didn't know it was you when I reported you. I guess when I saw Pat "swearing" I wondered whether I wanted to go down the road of reporting people frequently. Which is why I opened this thread.
I tried to be light about it, but if you were offended and that is why your email is blocked, I'm really sorry. If I'm being psycho about imaginine your email blockage is any way connected with me, well, I admit to being psycho.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
um, i have the options set to allow people to email me without seeing my address...maybe they just don't work? yes, you're reading too much into that. no, i am not intentionally blocking you.
i've got an actual email address in there now.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I seem to remember that that feature isn't working properly on the forum celia, so it probably isn't going to work regardless of the address you use.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
no, i mean if you click on my profile, you can now see my email address.
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
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![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
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![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
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Now this really can be like an episode of Springer.