I'm a Yankees fan, so I'm rooting for the Yankees... but I don't know how far they'll get, they just haven't clicked well this year, so I won't be surprised if they stumble and don't win it this year. But I'd like them to at least make it past the Twins to play the Red Sox... and then see either the Yankees or the Red Sox go on to play the Cubs...
*Hopes it won't end up being a Minnesota-Florida series*
Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
I haven't been following baseball that much the past few years (I know where the O's are going to wind up , so why bother? ) but I am hoping that both the Cubs and the Red Sox make it to the World Series. I want to find out who's curse is stronger.
Other than that, I don't care who's in the World Series as long as it's not the Yankees.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I'm a Yankees fan, but if they can't make it to the World Series, then I'd love to see Florida win it again. The Marlins have actually been a lot more exciting and fun to watch this year, because they're not always in it, and they're so sxcited and happy about it. Also, Marlins games tend to have more offense than Yankees games.
Posted by hansenj (Member # 4034) on :
I love the Braves! (Just ask Hobbes )
They make it in the playoffs every year, but never win, and so I want this to be their year. Plus, Javy Lopez is my favorite player, and he's having the best season of his career. It would just be wonderful if he could top it all off with a World Series win.
Oh, and I very much dislike the Yankees (sorry guys). I think it would be great if the Red Sox won for the AL.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
I live in boston.
I'm a die hard fan.
Thats all I have to say about that.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
Go Braves! Javy Lopez is SEXY. The Yankees suck. That is all.
Posted by Traveler (Member # 3615) on :
Go Twins! I am SO hoping that the Twins beat the Yankees. The Twins are what baseball is all about. A good TEAM that plays with heart and has good pitching, good defense, and more precision hitting. I get tired of these owners that think they can buy a championship (Yankees / Lakers). Seems like most people count the Twins out since they have such a low payroll...well...they may not get paid the most but you get the most effort / dollar out of any team in baseball! If the Twins win tonight and get up 2-0 on the Yankees then the Twins will win this series for sure.
-Traveler
Posted by hansenj (Member # 4034) on :
Yay, RRR! We can be friends. Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Since I live in MN, here's my arbitrary vote for the Twins. Even though they were never the same after Kirby Puckett retired. Posted by seriousfun (Member # 4732) on :
I grew up near Chicago, and the '69 Cubs broke my pathetic 12 year old heart...
Then at 18, I moved to Boston to go to school, and lived near Fenway...
I don't think I will be able to function if the Cubs and Red Sox make it to the Series...
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:I love the Braves! (Just ask Hobbes )
How come no one's asking?
The Rockies never even came close to making it this season so I'm not all that excited, but it's still baseball gosh darn it!
Hobbes Posted by Godric (Member # 4587) on :
Somewhere a bitter Phillies fan shakes his fist at the sky and curses the gods of baseball...
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Let's go Marlins let's go! I'll admit that after '97 I never expected my team to come within half a season of the playoffs so to same I'm excited is an understatement. If Jeff Loria, the current owner, dismantles this team the tri-county area will lynch him.
quote:[Giambi] is the most prominent Yankee now without a championship, his postseason struggles becoming magnified, and he was booed thickly after whiffing in the fifth inning with two on and two out.
Giambi, the designated hitter, retreated to the clubhouse, where David Wells -- another member of the old guard -- approached him with a handful of magazines featuring clothing-free women, just trying to take the edge of Giambi. In the seventh inning, Giambi's two-run single capped a three-run rally. "I guess it works," Giambi said of the magazine treatment, "to help me relax."
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Ha, now they'll probably start testing baseball players for improper lust...
"Mr. Clemens, what were you thinking about when you won your 300th game?"
"Well, I did think some lustful thoughts -- but only about my wife! I swear!"
Posted by hansenj (Member # 4034) on :
Stupid Yankees won last night... Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Wow, I love the Marlins. Did anyone else see that hit? Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"I live in boston.
I'm a die hard fan.
Thats all I have to say about that."
Yes, Paul, that IS all you have to say about that. I married one of those broken-hearted(or, broken-haaahted) men myself. Actually, two of those men, since you married all Hatrack women.
They WILL win this year. My 7 year-old son will be heart-broken if they lose, and that cannot happen! Not another generation!
Posted by Paercival (Member # 1408) on :
red sox 15, A's 6 you heard it here first for tonites game tomorrow night, burkett throws 7 shutout innings, red sox win 4-2 setting up pedro v zito for game 5 at oakland red sox win 7-3
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Ah, a dreamer.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Is Boston, all we have are dreams. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Um, why does the Metrodome have a forty-foot tall half-gallon jug of milk?
o_O
Freaks.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
It also has these big old holes behind home plate . . . like ten feet tall!
What a weird freaking stadium!
-o-
Yay, another run! Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
THE MARLINS WON!!!
Hat's off to Pudge Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
HATE the Yankees. HATE the Braves.
Go Cubs! Go Marlins!
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Works for me.
I can't believe they won. I'm just so happy. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
What a finish! Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
You mean again, right?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Yep! Posted by hansenj (Member # 4034) on :
Well, my Braves lost yesterday, but they didn't let me down tonight! One more game to decide it...
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
GO MARLINS!!!!!!!!!
MARLINS ARE GOING TO THE NLCS!!!!!
How come you're not online, Icky? I wanted to high five you.
Too bad the Cubs lost...I was rooting for them to finish it off tonight... (I can't STAND the Braves - and I absolutely loath hearing their tomahawk chop. )
**Ela**
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
::high fives Ela::
I'll be on AIM later on . . . right now I'm still alternating between Hatrack and trying to be productive.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Not an FSU fan then are you, that's ok I'm not either. I prefer the Braves only because I want to replicate '97 and we do better against them.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Actually, I went to FSU, so I am an FSU fan.
It's the Braves' tomahawk chop that really irritates me.
quote:::high fives Ela::
I'll be on AIM later on . . . right now I'm still alternating between Hatrack and trying to be productive.
Icky: Productive work? What's that?
::high fives Icky::
**Ela**
[ October 04, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Oooohh. That figures.
Go Marlins!!! Posted by Shlomo (Member # 1912) on :
Who wants to bet against the Marlins???
(Read: who wants to get embarrassed?)
After these last two games, I REALLY don't care what the situation is, becase the Marlins will find a way to win it all.
And if the team is not dismantled, they could very well win it all again. And again. And again.
The MLB will be fun to watch as a high schooler... Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Can't the Red Sox win(or lose) without all the drama!?!?!?!?
We're still in it, kids! This is the year!
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
The Red Sox are my second favorite team but I can't say I have any confidence in them. What may turn out to be ironic is if the Marlins lost to the Red Sox in the World Series. It would be especially ironic after seeing my second favorite team beat my favorite team in the Fiesta Bowl. I now hate that team that beat my team.
Go Marlins and at least for now Red Sox!!! Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Wow, Boston came through. Will Boston take the series? I hope so.
Go Marlins!!! Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
quote: Um, why does the Metrodome have a forty-foot tall half-gallon jug of milk?
o_O
Freaks.
Hey! I'm one of those freaks, Ic!! And if it's forty feet, it's probably a LOT more than a half-gallon...
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
This is the first year my husband has not said, "This is the year!" in almost twenty years of knowing him.
He thinks they will "sh** the bed" in the Series, even if they make it, because, though their hitting team is strong, their pitching team is not as strong, and pitchers win series'.(his words, paraphrased.
Still, because this is the only year he has ever said this, perhaps they WILL win.
Also, with Mars so close to Earth...
Posted by JaneX (Member # 2026) on :
MARLINS! Go Marlins!
I've been a die-hard Marlins fan since I was ten. I was there when we won the World Series in '97. And after six years of frustration, rooting for the Marlins is finally fun again. The team I love is back.
And we're going to the NLCS!!
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"And if it's forty feet, it's probably a LOT more than a half-gallon..."
OK, but if it is a giant's bottle of milk, and they use the same English measuring system as we do, then wouldn't it still be a half gallon? In "Giant?"
(sorry, a bit giddy after game...)
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
THE RED SOX WON! WOOOOOOOOOOO!
On to Oakland for game five!!!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Cool! Give the Yanks a nice long break before they face Oakland!
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Wow, one extra game.
Curse of the Bambino or Curse of Game 5? Who will triumph? Probably Boston so that they'll get another oppurtunity to hate the Yankees. If that were to happen and Atlanta were to win then all four teams remaining would be from the East. Interesting.
Go Marlins!!! Posted by hansenj (Member # 4034) on :
Well...there you have it Cubs fans/Braves haters.
Oh well, there's always next year!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
. . . Anybody else starting to find this game exciting?
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
No, its still almost as boring as golf. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Are you freaking nuts?
Game coming down to the final at bat, Oakland down by one, men on second and third with one out??
What's wrong with you?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
A HAHAHAHA!
He invoked the Spirit of Buckner!!
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Wow, the Sox pulled it out, down 2-0 and losing both 3 and 4 at one point and they take the series.
Go Marlins!!! Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
This'll just make it more fun when the Yanks beat them!
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Its boring because liteally 90% of even a relatively exciting game is yawn yawn yawn. Hockey for example is don't blink.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"This'll just make it more fun when the Yanks beat them!"
Icarus, them's words you are gonna eat, Mister!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
True enough, nfl. Baseball is different from basketball or football. It's more laid back, and it's more of a long haul. But, maybe because the tension builds up more slowly, and also because there's no set length of time for a game to last, when it does build up, it builds up to a crescendo. I think football is more exciting--in fact, I like it best--but baseball, especially late-season baseball, can be more dramatic.
As I was sitting here watching the final out, I couldn't look away, because there was no telling how long it might last. It could take one pitch, or it could take 10.
Anyway, what a great end to the season! In the American League, we have two classic rivals in the Sox and the Yanks. In the National League, we have two teams we don't see all the time bringing parity to the game. Nobody is more thrilled than the Marlins and the Cubs. Frankly, this is one of the best playoffs I can remember, so far!
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"Cool! Give the Yanks a nice long break before they face Oakland!"
Here, Ic, is a little snack for you. Would you like mustard or ketchup with them?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Heh! Enjoy your short playoff life, Elizabeth!
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
Aaaaaaaaaah my dorm just ERUPTED!!!
*cheers wildly for the Red Sox*
Man, my campus is going to be divided in half....
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Wow! Red Sox won! A Yankees-Red Sox playoff! Woo woo!!
... now, if the Cubs can get past the Marlins, it'll be Yankees-Cubs or Red Sox-Cubs... cool!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
That's OK Elizabeth. While I hate Boston, I'm glad they won.
Really.
I'll enjoy watching the Yankees beat them much more that I would have enjoyed beating the As. I will also enjoy watching Boston lose to New York more than I would have enjoyed watching them lose to Oakland!
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Ha! There are going to be wheelchairs flying at my grandmother's assisted living place in Newburyport, MA. She moved up from Long Island last year, a 90 year-old, watch-every-game Yanks fan.
Our rivalry pales in comparison, but I still say: mustard or ketchup?
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Ditto what Icarus said re: baseball appreciation... maybe it's because I know the game well, but to me there's always drama and tension, even if it's quiet, in things as little as watching a pitcher try to get ahead of the hitter on a count, in the hitters trying to get a rally together, in the pitcher trying to get out of an inning when there's men on base with nobody out...
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Whooooooooo, Go Mackstress!
Question: Why, oh why, did they keep panning back to Jillian's? Oh, the pain of those shots.
Posted by Dash Rendar (Member # 3571) on :
Wow.
My heart is <i>still</i> beating unhealthily fast.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Tension: I got to the end of the game, and flipped over to the Daily Show, thinking, "I just can't take it, i just can't take it," but I flipped right back.
I was tense from the first pitch on.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Holy crap. I kept switching the channel, then switching back 'cause I didn't want to MISS anything.
And that COLLISION.. Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I missed the collision! I am glad, actually.
Posted by Dash Rendar (Member # 3571) on :
The collision......
Did you notice how Damon's body turned like 60 degree's in midair just from that impact? Ouch!
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
That was a truly exciting game. THAT is why baseball is so much more exciting then football, or basketball.
Damon and Jackson scared the living daylights out of me. I have never seen a worse collission in baseball. Damon is lucky to be alive. He caught Jackson's forehead JUST NEXT to his temple at full speed. That is a lot of momentum transfer through a small area right next to the brain.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I am very worried about Damon. I was also disgusted by the reaction of the fans. I really hope he will be OK.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
What will happen if there is a "collision of curses" and the Cubs play the Red Sox in the world series?
Does anyone find this majorly wrong or should we be happy that the odds of one curse lifting are good.
I know the sports commentators that say X is as likely to happen as the Cubs winning the world series are probably getting mildly concerned.
Will we have the number of old folks deaths predicted in either Chicago or Boston for those people who were merely staying alive in hopes that the team would win one in their lifetime?
AJ
Posted by ikantspel (Member # 5752) on :
quote: What will happen if there is a "collision of curses" and the Cubs play the Red Sox in the world series?
Something too terrible to imagine. Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Well, theories range from meteor strikes, to four horsemen of the apocalypse.
My personal favorite is space-time continuum is disrupted, freezing fenway park in time with a full count, bases loaded, bottom of the ninth, tie game, in game seven. The pitch will be halfway to home plate when both teams are suspended in time. This space-time anomoly will not abate for 1000 years, by which time baseball will no longer be a professional sport, thus negating the relevance of what happens when the pitch reaches home plate. (Yes, game seven is at fenway if the red sox make the world series this year).
Posted by Dragon (Member # 3670) on :
Mack, you are amazing!
The theory at my school is that if the Cubs play the Sox the game will be cancelled and they will both be declaired the loosers.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Who cares about the Cubs or Red Sox? The Marlins are already the story of the year and there's no reason to believe that they won't continue to be. The 60-1 Marlins are eight games from becoming the first team to win two World Series as a Wild Card. Anyone doubting the Fish because they are losing tonight have already forgotten the series against the Giants. Fox still wants the Marlins to lose but that isn't going to stop 'em in the end.
Go Marlins!!! Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Schmarlins.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Yes, Red Sox.
And I have to say, having a girlfriend who is a Red Sox fan is very nice perk.
Also, Elizabeth, I grew up in Newburyport (as did my parents). One of my favorite places in the world!
-Bok
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
The first I heard that there was a game on was in this thread. The radio this morning said both series began tomorrow! Since I thought there was no game on today, I took advantage of tonight to come in to work and catch up on some of my paperwork. Now I see on ESPN Gametrack that I'm missing one heck of an exciting game!
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
What a game again!!!
Let's go Marlins!!!! Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
ICARUS: DO NOT READ THIS POST!
"And I have to say, having a girlfriend who is a Red Sox fan is very nice perk."
Bok, When I met my husband nineteen years ago, I was a Yankees fan. Part of our attraction, frankly, was a little bit of that ribbibg that goes along with a Yankee fan-Red Sox fan combination.(talk about "What is your sign" as a pickup line) Over the years, as I witnessed his annual heartbreak, I was converted. Now, there is a seven year old boy in this house, and the cycle begins again. I am hoping not to have to watch HIS heart break this year. Sheesh, they have to give ths family, and millions of others, a break, don't you think?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Eh?
Why not?
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Elizabeth I agree. Of course, this comes from a person who had 2 grandparents born in 1919... Not a single grandparent of mine saw the Red Sox win a World Series.
And my great grandmother was only 5 or so.
-Bok
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
The thing is, what would happen to red sox nation if they WON?
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Good times, good times....
-Bok
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
GO MARLINS!!!
What an exciting game they played last night!!!
Love those Marlins.
Here's to Pudge and Lowell for pulling out the win last night.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
I have to agree with Paul, wouldn't the consequences of a Red Sox win be far greater than the benefits?
Go Marlins!!! Posted by Paercival (Member # 1408) on :
the party wouldn't end until opening day. the city would be shut down for at least a week. riots would burn the city to the ground.
go soxies Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Isn't that a bad thing?
Go Marlins!!! Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:. . . riots would burn the city to the ground.
Well, when you put it that way, almost do you convince me to cheer for them! Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
We'll make SURE to riot in YOUR city. Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
WOO HOO ! RIOTS AT ICARUS' HOUSE!
*Brings the Sam Adams*
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
::prepares fire hose::
Puhleaze. As soon as you all found out there was no chowder here, you'd turn around and head home, grumbling and whining all the way.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
'course not. it's chowdah.
Red Sox 5, Yankees 2. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
One. Game.
moron. Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
GO RED SOX!!!!!!!!!! My whole cheering force is behind them now that the Braves have lost. Poor Braves. Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
More than zero.
Assmonkey.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Icarus, you were NOT supposed to read my post, because you would find out that I started life as a Yanks fan. Sheesh. Some people just can't follow directions.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
. . . and you are ashamed of your fall from grace? Don't worry . . . perfection is hard to maintain!
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Ha ha, Icarus.
I like to think of it as a strange combination of true love and deep pity.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Stupid cubbies. Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Lowe tonight, Pedro tomorrow. Pettite has been on fire for about the last month, Clemens has been prone to disaster facing Pedro. Wells vs Burkett, unless the sox offense shows up, it will be 2-2 I suspect, after the fourth game.
And I'm going to the fifth game Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Is Elizabeth actually Cor? I'm confused.
AJ
Posted by Paercival (Member # 1408) on :
Pettite has been on fire, execpt against the sox. 7-5 sox tonite
pedro vs clemens, my money is on pedro, and a semi shelling of clemens. sox 5-2
burkett wells, i gotta go yanks here cause burkett isn't really dependable like that. yanks 6-4
game 5 I'm there baby! GO SOX!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
No, Elizabeth is not Cor! (She is talking about her own husband.)
Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
*runs in to thread* *cheers for Atlanta Braves* *runs out*
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
The Atlanta Braves are out of the playoffs, which you would know if you ever posted outside of the hug thread.
Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
I'm not cheering for them in playoffs, I'm cheering for them in general.
*runs in to thread* *glances in horror at Braves' score* *runs out again*
Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
And I do post outside of the Hug thread. A lot. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
*pat pat*
It was a joke.
-o-
Finally the Yankees have come awake. All is right in the world.
Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
(((((Icarus)))))
GO BRAVES!!!
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Icarus, two words for you:
Pedro Martinez
PS 4th row seats to Saturday's game at Fenway for Pedro vs. The Traitorous Old Fart(and no, it is not me, Icarus-ha ha) are going for
20,000 dollars
on some scalper sites.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
*bites Icarus*
and I haven't had my shots.
Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
My roommate just got back from his trip to Chicago and he's all decked out in his Cubs gear... Plus, he's got one of the out-of-the-park home run balls from game 2. How cool is that?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Bah. There were like 6 million balls hit out of the park in game two. No big deal.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Icarus, I deliberately baited you and I want a retort! You are slipping, Sir.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Cool! Cubs won the 3rd game, they've got a good chance...
...and of course I'm happy that the Yankees won the 2nd game to even things up.
Hope the Yankees-Red Sox series gets more interesting -- so far, the first 2 games were good for their first halves, but then in the first game the Red Sox pulled away, and in the second game the Yankees pulled away. I'd like to see some close games and back-and-forth games...
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"I'd like to see some close games and back-and-forth games..."
And I would like to see the Red Sox stomp the Yanks like grapes under Lucy and Ethel's feet in the "trip to Italy" episode.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Hey, I don't mind the Yankees losing the series (I can afford to be generous, I know the Yankees have won enough times already), but I want to actually see a good, close, exciting series. (Unlike some poor, revenge-obsessed fans who care more about winning than anything else...)
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Listen, Plaid, your pretend concession to the possibility of a Red Sox win would horrify my ninety-year-old grandmother. Here is how the conversation went this morning:
Me: Come on, Gram, don't you want the Red Sox to win it, just once?
Gram: Not a chance. I say: screw 'em.
And you wonder why Sox fans are vengeful?
(I almost fell off my chair laughing)
So: Good Game, Schmood Schmame.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Boooo Cubs, booooo.
Go Marlins!!!
Has anyone here seen "Curse of the Bambino" on HBO? It poses the great question: What will Red Sox fans do if they win? Not just the celebrating either, what will they do with their lives?
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
We aren't sure.
*blink*
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Now, see, Elizabeth, I wished for a good, close, exciting game, and I got it. I didn't wish for the Yankees to win... but because *I* was modest, I got MY wish.
And you? You wished for the Red Sox to whomp the Yankees. You got greedy, so you didn't get YOUR wish.
Let that be a lesson to you...
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
*gets stick and chases after plaid*
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
*Laughs hard and long at the scene unraveling before him* *Gets derpressed when he thinks about the Rockies* *Goes in search of Mack to see what wacky antics she's cooking up now*
Hobbes Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
::applauds plaid::
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
*Takes refuge behind Don Zimmer* *Don Zimmer goes after mack*
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
*dodges old man* *thwaps plaid* *goes after Icky*
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
*Calls in Lucy and Ethel for backup*
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
*Quickly realizes Lucy and Ethel would be Yanks fans*
*Calls Cliff and Norm instead*
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
The Marlins won!!!
Josk Beckett actually pitched a good game (CG 2H, 0 ER)!!!
The Marlins are still in it!!!
Go Marlins!!!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The only series conceivably worth watching would be a Cubs/Red Sox series. It'd better happen.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Tom hath spoken.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
No, we need Marlins and Red Sox. The Marlins, the team no one wanted to cheer for, the team no one wanted to win, the team no one possibly thought would make the playoffs. And as an added bonus they could become the first team to win two World Series as a wild card.
The Red Sox would be nice, but they scare me. The Cubs have already broken their pathetic curse, they beat the Braves.
Go Marlins!!! Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Listen to yourself. The MARLINS? There's a reason no one wanted to cheer for them. Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Yeah. Get with the program! GO BREWERS!
er, um, never mind . . .
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Go Marlins!!! Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
What a game and what a comeback!!!
Go Marlins!!! Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
GO MARLINS!!!!!
WOOHOO!!!!
And to you, Tom, I have one thing to say:
**Ela**
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Hey, it's just further evidence of baseball's obvious decline. Yankees vs. Marlins? Blech.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
The Marlins rock!!! Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Ack! Stupid Cubs!!
I want a Yankees-Cub matchup. Or a Red Sox-Cubs matchup. (Like I said before, I'm a Yankees fan, but I can afford to be generous -- a Red Sox-Cubs matchup would be pretty cool.)
But Yankees-Marlins?? Sorry, it's just not as interesting...
Posted by El Babalao (Member # 5817) on :
Not as interesting?
Have you been paying attention?
For the past three months or so, Marlins games have been without a doubt the most exciting and interesting around!
Man, talk about feeling unappreciated!
::sacrifices another goat::
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Why does everyone hate the Marlins so much anyways? Is it the name? Is it the location? It can't be the people.
Go Marlins!!! Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Jealousy.
A distorted sense of "fairness."
How can the Marlins win it twice when Chicago has been futile for so long?
Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
*says in small voice* "Go Braves!" *slinks from room*
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Listen, Megachirops, a.k.a. Icarus, or Mister "The-Boy-Who-Didn't-Listen-and-Flew-Too-Close-to-the-Sun-and-Landed-in-a-Fiery-Heap-Much-Like-His-Beloved-Yankees-Did-Tonight-Pants," we Red Sox fans have had enough of you and your little name change. You are going DOWN, Sirrah!
Posted by El Babalao (Member # 5817) on :
Litters thread with feathers, and sprinkles some blessed water around.::
Your next hairstyling will end very unpleasantly.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Now, now, Elizabeth, it's PRIDE that goes before a fall... Remember the last time you posted nasty wishes for the Red Sox to crush the Yankees? And remember what happened? Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Plaid, Plaid, I was thinking in the LONG TERM, of course...
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Long term as in three or four more decades?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Why, I oughtta...
Mack, where are you!?!?!
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
I hope you're watching the NLCS game because no matter what happens this has got to be the one of the greatest series of all time. In fact this is probably already the greatest playoff run of all time by the Marlins. Five going on six comeback wins.
Go Marlins!!! Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
On the whole, these are the most exciting playoffs I can recall.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
The Marlins won!!!!!!!!!!!! From 1-3!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Posted by El Babalao (Member # 5817) on :
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
On ESPN.com: Wrigley Glum
Go Marlins!!! Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
AAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHH!!! The Apocalypse has been cancelled!!! AAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHH!!!
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
It was hard to watch the last few minutes out on the field. Even the Marlins' celebration looked muted and awkward.
They're sure making up for it now, though.
Why didn't Pudge mention me?
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Jeff Loria is the greatest owner in baseball!!!
Go Marlins!!! Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I was somewhat sympathic with the Cubs, because of the long time it has been since they won anything, and because frankly I had never even heard of the Marlins before. But after learning a few things about the Marlins, I am glad they won. The owner did the best he could to put together an excellent team, continuing to pick up guys who could help them throughout the season. They had the best record in Major League Baseball from the end of May onward. What I particularly like is that the owner hired a 72-year old "past his prime" retired manager to be his manager, and he proved that old guys can still do it. Age discrimination took one right in the chin.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Bambino!
Go Marlins!!! Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
ESPN SportsNation Poll: Marlins: 46.9% Yankees:53% That many people think the Marlins are going to win!?
Go Marlins!!!
[ October 17, 2003, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: newfoundlogic ]
Posted by Paercival (Member # 1408) on :
Yankees in 5, the only reason not in 4 is because they'll have to use contreras or weaver as a starter tonite so I figure theyl'l lose.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I will say Marlins in 5. I don't say in 4, because the Yankees are too good a team to be swept.
Tonight's game should see the Marlins get off to a good start. They have had an extra day's rest, and the Yankees pretty much exhausted their pitching staff with that 11-inning final victory.
I also expect that whichever game Roger Clemens pitches, he will get beat. He is one of the all time great pitchers, but he is too far past his prime, and can't beat the really good teams any more. The Marlins will eat him alive.
With those two likely victories, the Marlins only need to win two more out of five. If they stay hot, they could come close to a sweep.
Remember, since the end of May, the Marlins have the best record of any team in Major League Baseball.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Marlins in 6. Simply because the Yankees are a better team but the Marlins are Marlins and therefore must win.
Nice start with a 3-2 win with Penny pitching too.
Go Marlins!!! Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
That was a good game. The Marlins looked sharper than the Yankees, but that was only to be expected since they had an extra day's rest. That play where they caught the Yankee runner off third base was a classic, executed perfectly.
The series should be close, and could go longer than some of us have suggested. I noticed that the commentators repeated the info that since the end of May, the Marlins have had the best record in Baseball. But then they added that their record was only one-half game better than that of the Yankees. That is not a big difference!
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Of course the Marlins are a significantly improved team since May with the addition of Urbina, Conine, and Cabrera since then.
The Marlins also have a huge advantage with DH situation. With the extra batter in the lineup they improve in New York and of cource their pitchers are used to batting in Florida.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Marlins in 7.
GO MARLINS!!!!!!
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
The Marlins took one out of two in Yankee Stadium. Now they have the advantage of playing at home.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Well, it's not gonna be the Marlins in 5. Maybe 6 or 7, but not 5... Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
I'm very conflicted. I have to keep reminding myself I'm a Yankee fan.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Before, I just said that it would be Marlins in five to counter the claim that it would be Yankees in five. But as I have said since then, the teams are very close to equal. The Marlins had the best record in baseball from the end of May onward (when their present team was finally constituted), but the Yankees were only a half game behind them.
I would seriously expect the series to go to seven games. And either team could win it. If these two teams were to play each other twenty times, the better team would win eleven. More likely they would each win ten.
Did anyone notice that the team salary for the Marlins is one-third that of the Yankees? ($53 million to $168 million.) Even if the Marlins do not take the series, they still got more bang for the buck!
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
With any luck this means they won't be dismantled this time.
I think a baseball-only stadium in Miami would truly be successful. Especially if they focused on the parts of Miami that are heavily latino. I think Huizenga really made a bad call when he moved all his teams, but especially this one, out to the middle of nowhere.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Here I thought the Yankees were dismantled when Mickey Mantle retired.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
lol!
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
No, they need to move the stadium to Fort Lauderdale so its accesible to the entire tri-county area. No one wants to go to Miami.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
They've tried the one-size-fits-all approach already, and look where it's gotten them.
The population center down there is Miami. As much as the people who fled to Fort Lauderdale might wish to pretend this is not true, it simply is. So putting the stadium in Miami is more convenient for more people. Also, baseball is extremely popular among Latinos, and the team will have more loyal fans if they locate closer to this fan base. Fort Lauderdale fans have already long shown themselves to be fairweather fans only.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
And personally, I would rather go to exciting Miami than racist Fort Lauderdale any day.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Racist?
All I know is that if I want to go to Heat or Hurricane games I have to drive about an hour through slums. There's also a lot less room in Miami. Actually there are almost as many people in Broward as there are in Dade and if the stadium is in Dade you limit the amount of Palm Beachers significantly.
How about the Alex Gonzalez?
Go Marlins!!!
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
That you drive an hour is a function of where you live.
Neither AA Arena not the Orange Bowl is in a slum. PP Stadium, on the other hand, is.
And your claim that the population of Broward is close to that of Miami-Dade is absurd.
-o-
Congratulations on the win, btw.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I don't live in Florida (I live in the other penninsula, the one that hatches the snowbirds that go down to Florida every winter), but I hear one of the big problems facing the Marlins' management and others who want to build a baseball-only stadium is the lack of available land. Where they can find suitable land will probably be the major factor in determining where in southeast Florida they build.
I do wonder just how faithful the Florida fans will be. They don't strike me as being nearly as rabid as New York fans. Despite their excellent year, the Marlins did not draw that well during the season. The Detroit Tigers probably drew nearly as well, despite the fact that their only accomplishment this year was avoiding by one game tying the 1962 Mets' record for total losses in a season. What kind of fan support will the Marlins have in years when they aren't bound for the World Series? Granted, with their young team, they're going to be winners for years to come, but it won't last forever.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
There are two sites in Miami that have been proposed as viable stadium sites . . . this issue is the financing (and who will do it). The land is there.
The famous lack of loyalty of Miami fans is due to two main factors. First of all, Miami teams routinely go after the wrong market by trying to go after all markets. Baseball is very different from football, fanbase wise. A ticket to a regular season baseball game is much cheaper than a football ticket. Baseball stadiums will be more successful in urban population centers where you can easily take a bus to the game if you don't have a car. (If you plop the stadium down in a dangerous neighborhood, then it will fail, because people will be reluctant to go to games. Miami already proved this with the dramatic failure of the Miami Arena in Overtown, which was replaced with two new arenas within ten years or so of being built. But urban is not synonymous with unsafe.)
Wealthy people make good football fans, because football is an expensive ticket, and because football games are only weekly. Wealthy people are not such good baseball fans, though, because there are so many games and wealthier people simply have more entertainment options in an area like South Florida or New York. Poorer people are often more loyal baseball and basketball fans because, unlike football, it's not so expensive to go to a game once in a while, and because they don't have as many competing forms of entertainment.
The former owner of the Marlins, who also owns the Dolphins and the Panthers, made the mistake of trying to market all three teams the same way. (This one-size-fits-all approach even extends to the stadium, which is an absolutely lousy stadium for baseball and an absolutely lousy stadium for football.) This approach has had mixed results with the Dolphins, who struggle to sell out home games, even when they are in the playoffs. It has succeeded with the Panthers, because the main audience targeted by Huizenga is wealthy American whites, and it is absolutely true that blacks and latinos are not big hockey fans. It was an unmitigated disaster with the Marlins.
Another point that cannot be dismissed is that you must build a fanbase. After the 1997 World Series, Huizenga had what amounted to a fire sale, completely dismantling the team. Many fans saw this as a betrayal. This year's team was not bought like the 1997 Marlins were . . . while there were, of course some key aquisitions when the playoffs drew near, this is typical of a playoff team. But, by and large, this is a home-grown team, that developed talent instead of going out and getting a bunch of high priced superstars. Hence the disparity between their payroll and that of the Yankees. While attendance at Marlins games has been bad since 1997, it was up for the last half of this season, long before it was clear that the Marlins would be in the playoffs.
Fan loyalty needs to be earned, and it looks like the Marlins are now starting down that track.
Another good way to avoid the mistakes of the past is to court the minority fans, who are likely to be more loyal fans of baseball. The best way to do this is to put a stadium closer to them.
It takes a great deal of incompetence to make baseball fail in South Florida.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
By the way, to make a comparison, the Miami Heat has always enjoyed much more fan loyalty than either the Marlins or the Dolphins.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
AAA and the Orange Bowl aren't in slums, Ijust have to drive through slums to get to them. PPS is not in a slum. I know of no Heat fan loyalty at all. They give away free tickets no strings attached all the time. The Panthers gave you one free ticket per person per season one season but they ended that policy for what ever reason. AAA is a couple blocks from Miami Arena also.
Attendance at Marlins games has only gone up because Floridians are fair weather fans. Even if the team isn't dismantled you won't see many people in the stands half way through the season. There'll be quite a few for the first games and then it'll drop only to rise again near the end of the season if the Fish are still in playoff contention.
Go Marlins!!! Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
No. Floridians are only fairweather fans when the sport is mismarketed. During the time I lived in Miami, both the Panthers and the Heat had wildly successful ticket sales. The Marlins don't have a lot of success with fans so far for the reasons I have detailed above. They will never be wildly successful on the Dade-Broward line.
AAA is a couple of blocks from the Miami Arena, but that couple of blocks makes all the difference. The Miami Arena is in the very worst slum in Miami, but by being on Biscayne, the AA has a totally different neighborhood. The Bayfront area is well lit, populous, and has a good police presence. I feel safe in that Bayside area any night. You shouldn't have to drive through Overtown to get to the AAA . . . take the 395 (is that the one that turns into the MacArthur, or is it 195?) to Biscayne from I-95.
(It's a shame about the Miami Arena, by the way, because, though the Miami Arena is too small, it is, in many ways, better designed than the AAA. The Miami Arena is entered at the mezzanine level, and has dozens of doors. From that level, there are ramps or stairs to go up or down to your own seat level. Easy in, easy out. After a Heat game at the AAA, it can easily take you a half hour just to walk out of the Arena. If there is ever a fire there during an event, hundreds of people will die.
I can't think of a reason why you should have to drive through a slum so get to the OB. Where are you getting off of the 836? As I recall, it was twelfth or fourteenth avenue, and this area is urban and not wealthy, but it is not a slum.
You're right, the area around PPS is not technically a slum . . . I am engaging in a fair amount of hyperbole in this thread . . . but it is a worse area than the OB and the AAA.
South Florida is full of badly designed pink elephants, like PP Stadium, the Metrofail, and the Miami Arena. People build things without fully thinking through who the intended customers/users are. Instead, they think about revitalizing slums, or having a pretty mass transit system to put on postcards, or building an arena that is "central" to two less populous counties . . . and inconvenient for all. Most of these can be blamed on bureaucratic stupidity, but the PP is all Joe Robbie's fault.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Can anyone stop the Marlins. Apparently not.
Go Marlins!!!
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
See? I can find that button too. If you wanna drop it, then drop it. But is hardly a compelling argument. I've posted good reasons for what I believe, to which you have responded, basically, "Uh uh."
indeed.
[ October 23, 2003, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: Megachirops ]
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
There's just no point in arguing with you.
Go Marlins!!! Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
I suppose not.
:-p
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
WE WON WE WON WE WON WE WON!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Go Marlins!!!
[ October 25, 2003, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: newfoundlogic ]
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
WOOHOO!!!!!!!
MARLINS WIN THE WORLD SERIES!!!!!!
WHAT A GREAT TEAM!!!!!
Posted by graywolfe (Member # 3852) on :
You're kidding right? I absolutely loathe the Yankees, but this team will almost certainly go down as the worst World Series champion EVER. One quality pitcher, and about three good field players. They earned it, but they're right up there with last year's angels, as one of the luckiest, and one of the worst, if not worst ever World Series champs. And on top of that I lost a bundle of money as well. I need to stick to football, where I'm a master handicapper, betting on baseball just doesn't go well for me.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Like many, you are making the mistake of seriously underestimating this World Series Championship team. But we're used to that here in Florida. Everyone has been underestimating the Marlins since the beginning.
[ October 26, 2003, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: Ela ]
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Self fulfilling prophecy. That and the Marlins have the best speed and feilding in the majors. The Marlins have the best 3B in Mike Lowell. The next great hitter in Miguel Cabrera and a pretty good one now, another good pitcher in Mark Redman even if he didn't shine against the Yankess, Brad Penny is very solid, Carl Pavano has played as well as anyone this post season, Juan Pierre has got be the fast guy on the planet and the hardest working, Pudge can do a lot for one guy, Encarnacion is the most underrated fielder in the MLB errorless with a great arm, Willis is going to be great if he isn't already, Conine was batting near .400 for the World Series, Alex Gonzalez and Luis Castillo combine to form the best middle infeild in baseball and both came up with big plays at the plate when they needed to, and Derek Lee is the best feilding 1B and a pretty good hitting one. There are others but I'll leave it at that.
Can't you people just admit you underrated the Fish?
Go Marlins!!! Posted by graywolfe (Member # 3852) on :
I'll go out on a limb and state this: The Marlins won't win a series next year not the NLDS, although I think they might make the playoffs again due to the weakness of the east (solid teams, but no great teams beyond maybe Atlanta whose staff isn't what it used to be, and whose hitters fold everytime they smell a big game).
I'm not underestimating I'm telling it like it is. There isn't a pitcher on that team besides Beckett that would stand a good shot at being a #2 in the rotation for any of the other say top 15 teams in the league (and I teach sometimes at Dontrelle's High School, so it isn't like I've got something against him, I love his success, it says a lot about Encinal). The staff is mediocre at best, and there hitters aren't anything special either.
But congrats, scoreboard is scoreboard, I'm just glad the series is over, boy was it ever ugly.
"Self fulfilling prophecy. That and the Marlins have the best speed and feilding in the majors. The Marlins have the best 3B in Mike Lowell."
Ummm, I don't think so. Pujols (who spends time at third) is infinitely better, so is Eric Chavez, Aubrey Huff, Hank Blaylock (when he plays third), Eric Hinske is close when he plays third, and Scott Rolen is better as well, though he wasn't much better, if at all this year.
"The next great hitter in Miguel Cabrera and a pretty good one now..."
Ummm, could be famous last words. He's been very nice since he was called up, but let's also remember Jaret Wright, who looked great as a rookie and even greater in his first post-season and then fell apart afterward. I'll wait on Cabrera, just as Soriano's awful post-season wasn't indicative of his talent level, we simply haven't seen enough of Cabrera to anoit him as a supreme young talent already on his way to greater things.
"Another good pitcher in Mark Redman even if he didn't shine against the Yankess, Brad Penny is very solid, Carl Pavano has played as well as anyone this post season..."
Redmen isn't bad and he isn't good, he's just blah. An inning eater, no better and no worse. Brad Penny was once a quality prospect with high upside. Now he's an average pitcher who came through big in his second World Series start, but his career numbers say he's no better than average. And Pavano, well, back in '97 (or late '96) when he was traded by Boston in a package for Pedro he was seen as a top of the line starter, a #2 with stuff that might be able to make him a #1. It didn't happen, after looking fairly good early he regressed, and regressed and regressed. He's at best a fourth starter on a good team. But who knows, maybe after failing for five years he'll finally live up to his once great promise, but somehow I doubt it.
"Juan Pierre has got be the fastest guy on the planet and the hardest working..."
Speed doesn't matter like it used to. Teams rely a lot more on power, and the days of stadiums like Busch, and the Metrodome and the Astrodome are over. People don't use the speed-friendly turf like they used to and as a result Pierre's speed is only truly noticeable in the playoffs when every bat and every pitch matters a whole lot, and in the field where speed is a huge asset. I like Pierre, and would toss him in with Pudge as probably one of you're most dynamic and reliable players.
"Pudge can do a lot for one guy..."
Pudge is awesome. You'll get no argument for me, it was his misfortune to be a free agent last year, rather than three years ago when the market was much better. In 2001 he would have commanded an offer nearly triple what he did get, but he's yours and he's HUGELY valuable.
"Encarnacion is the most underrated fielder in the MLB errorless with a great arm.."
That's a mighty strong opinion, and I believe Vizquel definitely is the most underrated. He lost the gold glove last year to the middling AROD, if that isn't a sign of underrated I don't know what is.
"Willis is going to be great if he isn't already..."
Could be, and he isn't already. Tailed off badly in the second half of the season as most young pitcher's do, unused to the heavy workload, and while August tends to help veteran pitchers as they get after tiring hitters, it doesn't help young pitchers as they tend to be adversely effected by the heat and fatigue that comes from climbing toward and beyond their 20-25th start, and there 150th inning pitched at that point. Willis could be great, he has very good stuff, but young pitchers are notoriously unpredictable. We'll see what he can do. Could be special, I'd love to see him represent my town's high school to the north.
"Conine was batting near .400 for the World Series"
Connine is very old, and a big game player. A sort of bittersweet combo. He still has some good hitting left in him, but he's been terribly inconsistent for a long time. I dont expect that to continue next year, though it might.
"Alex Gonzalez and Luis Castillo combine to form the best middle infeild in baseball and both came up with big plays at the plate when they needed to..."
There good, but there not the best, and they were fairly solid during the playoffs.
Derek Lee is the best feilding 1B and a pretty good hitting one. There are others but I'll leave it at that."
Ummm, no he isn't. He is a pretty good hitting prospect though.
The problem you've got, is that while your team isn't bad anywhere, it doesn't have any greatness either beyond Pudge and Beckett. The rotation is merely mediocre, the relievers are nothing special, you're hitters lack power all through the lineup and don't intimidate, and while you have team speed, that's more of an asset on the field then when hitting. On the positive side, the Braves, while great as usual in the regular season, failed in the playoffs and don't have the pitching in the minors to take over for their tiring older arms. The Phillies still lack much talent in the rotation in the Expos have essentially been the league's farm team for a decade running. The Central boasts a good Cubs team, and interesting Cardinals and Astro's teams but both are a bit weak. In the West the Giants have a nice rotation with no #1 pitcher, and aging hitters, the Dodgers don't know what they're doing, the Rockies will never compete, and the Padres will spend some money in the offseason but they are lost as well.
You've got an in in the N.L., there are two aging formerly great teams in Atlanta and San Francisco and then a few good teams and not much else, so you might surprise, but I don't see a return visit to the World Series let alone the NLCS. But it's possible. The A.L. should be interesting, the A's will start to be disected again, the Mariners finally have a good G.M. supposedly, the Twins and White Sox might be good, I don't know what to expect of the Royals and the Indians will contend in '05 if they're young pitchers are ready and healthy and if they're young hitters get on track and the OF is figured out, the Red Sox have the hitting but not the pitching, the Yanks need to reload, the Blue Jays are just confusing.
It's interesting, but baseball has always been a rigged game to me anyway, without absolute sharing of tv revenue the fix is in. So I don't take it too seriously, but I do like sports and this Florida incident, while enjoyable (I love anyone sticking it to the Yanks) seems to have inflamed florida fans to the same level of unreasonable expectations that last year's flukey win for Anaheim did.
However, Anaheim didn't have Josh Beckett. So you have that on them. But Anaheim also had much, much better hitting. 2004 will tell the tale. But congrats on being the Evil Empire.
[ October 26, 2003, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: graywolfe ]
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
First the East is not weak. The Braves are a perennial power, the Phillies would have been wild card had the Marlins not won virtually every game they played against them, the same is almost true of the Expos, and the Mets are pretty good for a last place team, and is there a team I'm forgetting...oh yeah, that team that won the World Series.
Mark Redman is not blah, he was 14-9 with a 3.59 era, and three complete games. Next year watch out for Willis, he may have lost his deceptive ability but he can still light up the radar gun and place that ball anywhere.
Pujohs is not a 3B, he's an outfielder. Chavez, Blaylock, Hiske, and Huff don't come close. Rolen's stats were still worse than Lowell's even though Lowell missed like 20 games or more and he survived a cancer scare.
To say that speed doesn't matter is to deny the Marlins won the World Series. Speed turns singles into doubles, speed moves guys from 1st to 3rd when they have no right to, speed creates havoc. Of course with Lee and Lowell there is some power in the Marlins' lineup as well.
All I know is Encarnacion hasn't made an error all season, gets an ESPN web gem every other week, and gets outfield assists like very few. I didn't say he was the best, just the most underrated.
Conine isn't that old and he's playing better than I've seen him in these past few months with the Fish. He's also made some spectacular plays in left field which he hasn't even played in over 6 years.
Where's a better double play combo? Why do the Marlins lead the league in double plays.
Again where's a better 1B fielding wise. I think there's a reason why he's being mentioned for a gold glove and the all star game has consistenly proven you need to be very special to be on the Marlins and be recognized by major league baseball.
Schmidt's not a number one pitcher? Did he retire or get traded while I was sleeping?
If baseball was rigged then why weren't the Sox battling the Cubbies last night?
Go Marlins!!! Posted by E (Member # 1748) on :
I think Bob Marley said it best:
If you are the big tree, We are the small axe Sharpened to cut you down, Ready to cut you down.
"Small Axe"
Whether the Marlins had no pitchers, and only fast runners, or however you want to diminish their good effort, does not change the fact that they won the World Series.
Congrats, Marlins fans.
I am (truly) sorry, Yanks fans. I wanted them to go all the way to 3 and 3, get into the twelfth inning, and lose when one of the shlumpiest Marlins guys hit a single home run to win the game. Dang, can't we Sox fans even have decent revenge??? (kidding)(I am always sad for the losing team)
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
I still have trouble getting enthusiastic about the Marlins (aside from the fact that I'm not happy that the Yankees lost). I mean, the Marlins just haven't suffered enough; I'd have rather the Red Sox or the Cubs got it... oh well...
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Incredible that anyone would try to run down the Marlins. It was not a fluke that they got into the World Series and won it in six games. They have had the best record in all of Major League Baseball since about May 23. They probably played over 100 games from June-September. It would be pretty hard to "fake it" for that many games, against all comers.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Marlins next year. Some of their players, and their manager (who deserves a "manager of the decade" award) only have one-year contracts. But also, they have a nucleus of players who are young. Cabrera in left field is only 20, and Beckett, who last night pitched the first complete game shutout in the World Series since Jack Morris did it in 1991, is only 23. He may win some Cy Young Awards before he is done.
If Jack McKeon comes back again as manager of the Marlins next year, then they are a lock to go all the way again, and might even lead it wire-to-wire.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
For the record its since May 15.
Plaid, I just can't male myself believe sports is about who has suffered more. If that were the case we should all be cheering for the Bengals and Cardinals to go to the Super Bowl. But even if you did look at suffering you just can't imagine the incredible pain South Florida took when '97 team was dismantled. Still there are teams who have yet to win ever so they've probably suffered far more than the Cubs or Red Sox.
Go Marlins!!! Posted by graywolfe (Member # 3852) on :
Why would it matter what record they established since mid or late May? The seasons 162 games, until they decide to start in late may, the 30+ games you play before you start a streak like that count.
They deserve credit, they were dogs in the NLDS, NLCS, and World Series and they didn't care a whit, they played like favorites the whole way through though if not for a clump of moronic fans, and an inconceivable boot by the Cubs Shortstop, there'd be no conversation right now about the supposed greatness of the Marlins. I know about "if's", as the saying goes, yeah and "if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle," but it still took a colossal blunder by a fan and by a shortstop to get you there.
I look at the team, and I see a great young pitcher in Beckett, then a bunch of average guys behind him. On the field, I see some talent here and there, this isn't a bad team, it's just not a great team, or even in my view a very good team (and word on the street was that scumbag Loria would hold a firesale with the free agents following the season so you probably need to sweat that). I'm not taking the piss on your team speed, my point is that the days of hit and run are over because of the way fields are designed. The quick turf in stadiums like the metrodome, and the astrodome, and Busch are by and large replaced by grass or more grass like synthetics that don't allow for the absurd bounces that were once famous at Busch, and in the Twins monstrosity. You can still take advantage of the speed in the field, but with so many teams stadiums shorter to left or right, it's more of a power league today, the advantages one once had in stealing simply aren't there anymore. That's why no one's come anywhere near Henderson's record, or to even Vince Coleman's stats when he was a Cardinal. Speed is an asset in that allows for more flexible strategy, particularly in the NL (it would be far worse if the Marlins played in the AL), but it's not the same asset it was 15+ years ago.
With the relative weakness of the other powers in the NL the Marlins could make another run if Loria doesn't hold a Huzienga like fire sale, but that's a big "IF". Beyond that, I just think the Marlins have more in common with the Padres of '98, the Mets of '00, the D-Backs of '01, and the Angels of last year. All teams that looked terrific and then quickly vanished. You see an empire here being built, or even a great team, I see a team that could easily go down as a flash in the pan, something not all that unlikely considering the list I just came up with. The one thing you've got going for the Marlins is that they're relatively young, not old like those Padres, Mets and D-Backs, but I don't see much difference beyond that. We'll see in 2004.
I just don't think this a team that will remind anyone of the Yankees of '95-'03, and the almost dynasties of Cleveland ('95-'01), San Francisco ('97-'03, Atlanta ('91-'03) and Oakland ('00-'03), all those teams had a combination of solid to great pitching, and/or very good or great hitting. I see average pitching and average hitting in Florida. They had a run, no doubt about it, but a lot of teams have had one great run. There have been far fewer that have sustained it, and I don't see the personel for the Marlins to contend for the World Series for the forseeable future though problems in Atlanta, and San Francisco could open a door.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Their record since May 15 matters since that was when they actually had their current team. Actually, at that point they still didn't have Cabrera and he didn't start playing until near August. Its easy to underrate the Marlins when you don't take into account the fact that those first games were not played by the same team that won the World Series.
Again, to deny the power of speed is to deny the Marlins won the World Series and to a lesser extent the Angels did last year. Of course, before Lowell got injured he was second in homeruns in the NL and at one point first in the entire MLB. He still finished 30/100 and Derek Lee also have 30 HRs. Miguel Cabrera had a ridiculous amount considering how long he played, and Pudge never lacked power.
Word on the street? Are we talking about gangs or sports? If Loria really did want to have a firesale then he wouldn't have acquired Pudge at $10 million, Urbina, Conine, and refused to trade Lowell. Even if Loria did not resign any free agents who would we lose? Three players. Castillo, Pudge, and Urbina. Granted Castillo's defense of important, his batting average was great, and he did get on the all-star team, he wasn't that great. Rodriguez now wants to stay on the team and is likely willing to accept less pay than the $10 million for just one season. Urbina was a help but never a vital component. Who knows, maybe with Burnett back Pavano will move to a relief role where he found tons of success against the Giants and Cubbies.
You keep on insisting Beckett is the only good player. However, he didn't even have a winning record during the regular season. If he plays in the regular season like he did in the playoffs then he will win a Cy Young. It was Redman and Brad Penny racking up wins in the regular season, not Beckett.
The Marlins pitching throughout the year was easily solid and possibly great, their hitting might have been the most successful at putting runs up in the NL except for St. Louis. The team is incredibly young. I see no reason why this team shouldn't develop into a "dynasty".
Posted by graywolfe (Member # 3852) on :
"Their record since May 15 matters since that was when they actually had their current team. Actually, at that point they still didn't have Cabrera and he didn't start playing until near August. Its easy to underrate the Marlins when you don't take into account the fact that those first games were not played by the same team that won the World Series."
The final record is what matters. Not 3/4's of the season, or 1/3, the totality. It certainly helps to be hot going into the offseason but sometimes it doesn't matter a lick (the Indians stunk it up down the stretch and then came within gas can Mesa rightly not being brought in in the 9th (stick with Jackson Moron Hargrove!!!) of winning the World series despite playing bad ball during the season and especially down the stretch or the Giants this year looking great down the stretch and then collapsing in a field of errors in the NLDS, if Jose Cruz doesn't play like a moron the Giants advance, not you guys).
"Again, to deny the power of speed is to deny the Marlins won the World Series and to a lesser extent the Angels did last year."
What in the world are you talking about? You won because Redmen, Pavano, and Penny inexplicably shut down the Yankee bats. Point, set and match. Sure you needed a run or two, but the key was that your pitchers came up huge in five of six games. That's why you won and the Angels speed? Are you nuts? They play power baseball, they have barely anyone who can run a lick on that team. The Giants lost that World series when their relievers imploded and Dusty made some truly idiotic decisions in big games as he always does (refusing to pinch hit for gardner, pitching Livan in game seven instead of Rueter, and handing the game ball to Ortiz with more than six outs left in game six). Speed had nada to do with it.
"Of course, before Lowell got injured he was second in homeruns in the NL and at one point first in the entire MLB. He still finished 30/100 and Derek Lee also have 30 HRs. Miguel Cabrera had a ridiculous amount considering how long he played, and Pudge never lacked power."
That's why you came with an inch of trading him at the break, right? He had a very good year, but there's no way he's the best third basemen in baseball, not even close. Lee's a very nice hitter, a good prospect when he came up, and a good player. You're good players are Pudge, Lowell, and Lee, with Conine and Pierre being nice when there on. Cabrera is an unknown commodity who came up huge after being called up. He should be good, but he wouldn't be the first prospect to fail after shining brightly early.
"Word on the street? Are we talking about gangs or sports?"
It's a figure of speech meaning, that the rumors around baseball were that playoffs or not Loria planned to cut payroll in the offseason, and that the only reason Lowell stuck around was that the Marlins were just close enough to contending in late July to make it worthwhile to force Loria to eat his salary. Loria was a cheap, gutless scumbag in Montreal, and he'll sell your Marlins out in a second if he thinks he can make money out of it.
"If Loria really did want to have a firesale then he wouldn't have acquired Pudge at $10 million, Urbina, Conine, and refused to trade Lowell. Even if Loria did not resign any free agents who would we lose? Three players. Castillo, Pudge, and Urbina. Granted Castillo's defense of important, his batting average was great, and he did get on the all-star team, he wasn't that great. Rodriguez now wants to stay on the team and is likely willing to accept less pay than the $10 million for just one season. Urbina was a help but never a vital component. Who knows, maybe with Burnett back Pavano will move to a relief role where he found tons of success against the Giants and Cubbies.
Owners don't mind adding payroll for a season, but long term deals are something they don't like unless they have steady cash flow from reliable attendance and a nice tv deal. Florida has neither. I'm not inventing this out of thin air, newfoundlogic. It was all over the media sources throughout the summer and fall. He might not rip the team up. And if Burnett can come back from injury, you'd still have a nice #1 and #2, and you've got a competant #3 and #4 so that always helps. The problem is if none of those guys come back you won't be able to generate run support. Pudge should stay, he's got a chance to catch a potential Cy Young winner in Beckett and the market just isn't that great anymore, and his situation in Florida is probably better than any other he could get into. But still if most of those guys depart you could be in a load of trouble. I'm gonna check out baseballamerica to see if I can get more of a grasp on the health of your farm system. Maybe you'll be relatively okay if you can hang onto one of those two guys. As for Urbina, interesting guy. He has great stuff, but he's always been inconsistent. For whatever reason he can't seem to put it all together, but if he does, he's a top flight closer. The problem is the consistency, like with many relievers. He's worth investing in if you can get him for a good price.
"You keep on insisting Beckett is the only good player. However, he didn't even have a winning record during the regular season. If he plays in the regular season like he did in the playoffs then he will win a Cy Young. It was Redman and Brad Penny racking up wins in the regular season, not Beckett."
No I'm not, I'm insisting that Beckett is the only GREAT player. Beckett has great stuff. Doesn't mean he has it consistently. As great as the stuff young guys like Sabathia, Colon, Zito supposedly were, they all had problems with consistency as youngsters. Beckett will have some hard times but he has the stuff to be great. Redmen and Penny do not. One of them might turn out good, but right now they look like solid inning eaters who can give you .500 records, maybe a bit better record than that. I also think Pudge is a great player, and Pierre, Lowell and Lee are good, with Conine being good on occasion. Cabrera could be good, he's played well, but I want to see more AB's before I call him genuinely good as a Major Leaguer.
The Marlins pitching throughout the year was easily solid and possibly great, their hitting might have been the most successful at putting runs up in the NL except for St. Louis. The team is incredibly young. I see no reason why this team shouldn't develop into a "dynasty".
No where near enough power in the lineup. Not enough reliable high percentage hitters with great OPS numbers, and questions with the overall talent of the staff. You don't have questions about where you're gonna find the pitchers to eat innings, but whether or not you can get consistent quality starts is open to question.
There isn't a dynasty here. But they may be able to take advantage of the dearth of great teams right now. There's nothing like the talent that was around in the late nineties (great Giants, Astros, Cardinals, and Braves teams in the NL, great Indians, Red Sox, and yanks teams in the AL with the Mariners and A's coming on strong), so who knows. But I just don't see the talent for this team to be a dynasty. Maybe a team that can make the playoffs on and off, particularly if Beckett returns better than ever, but dynasty, no way.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Graywolf, I think you are underestimating Cabrera. When you look at the good stats he put up, and the way he stood up to pressure in the World Series, remember that he is only 20 years old. Every time he came to the plate and the camera zoomed in on his face, I thought he looked like he was barely out of high school. Yet he stood up to Roger Clemens, he stood up to the Yankees in Yankee Stadium, and he did not collapse or implode in dismay. He did a competent job in the field and at the plate. He's definitely going to make it as a star player from now on. He's passed his test!
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Graywolfe, you are seriously ignorant about the Marlins. Hey, I'm ignorant of the Mets but I don't profess to really know about them either.
Their whole record matters in determining who goes to the playoffs but when you want to know how good a team is then you look at certain other factors, primary among those being a managerial change. Clearly the Marlins are a different team with McKeon.
It was actually Beckett, Pavano, and Penny, Redman was awful during the postseason while Beckett was awful, at least statistically, during the regular season.
Look at all the close games at the plate and you can see how speed helped the Marlins. The first game was all singles and stolen bases for the Fish.
The Marlins never actually came close to trading Lowell. The only reason why it was even condsidered by the media is because at the time the Marlins weren't making a playoff run.
Cabrera came up huge for along time during the regular season, not just during the playoffs.
Are you from Montreal or something? If Loria wanted to sell out this team he wouldn't have made the acquisitions that he did. The Marlins actually had decent attendance during the regular season of 1997 its just been so low because of the '97 breakup. Television ratings were skyrocketing during the regular season especially when Willis was pitching. Also if you noticed there were a lot more games on ESPN and Fox toward the later edge of the season.
Pierre, Pudge, and Castillo were all over .500 with Pierre being the hardest player to strikeout and over 200 hits. With over sixty stolen bases many of those singles effectively turn into doubles. Followed by a true cleanup man in Mike Lowell, then a heavy hitter in Cabrera, maybe Conine's bat, Lee, Encarnacion, and maybe even an effective Gonzalez. In reality Gonzalez is the only weak link in that lineup and he wasn't that bad in the World Series. The Marlins have one of the better overall rotations, relieved by a decent and improving bullpen.
A definitely see the potential for a dynasty, especially if the current players get long term deals. For me the issue is increasing cost, not a lack of talent. This team was not a fluke.
Go Marlins!!! Posted by Shlomo (Member # 1912) on :
Graywolfe, since I am a Marlins fan, it's amazing that I even deign to talk to you at the moment, you and whatever freakin' second-rate team YOU think should be here instead.
I dunno what to do for such a sorry case...I guess I'd have to advise that you watch a few games.
Get used to some ugly October baseball, dude.
By the way, I'm going on a limb and saying we do this again next year. Just my limbs predicted both the Angels' and Marlins' championships. So, I don't care what YOU'RE doing "on a limb", so to speak. My limbs crush your limbs like twigs!
Beckett and Cabrera, if they aren't already, will be the best pitcher and hitter in the game very soon. Deal with it.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Congrats, Marlins fans. At first, the Marlins were overachieving and winning on their never-say-die attitude. But by the end, it was clear they discovered something about themselves, and they were overpowering those last two games.
This won't be like '97, because much of this team was developed, not bought. Doesn't mean Loria didn't acquire some key free agents when they began to make their run, but this isn't an overpriced team that he can't afford to keep.
I think Miami and professional baseball may finally have the seeds of a healthy relationship. I hope so.
(Now, if they can only get a decent baseball stadium. )
Posted by graywolfe (Member # 3852) on :
Well 2004 is just around the corner. I can't wait to see how ignorant I prove to be .
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
GO TIGERS!!!! Oh, wait one...... Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Speed is an interesting question in the sucess of a team.
Like, there is contention that the speed of the marlins helped them defeat the yankees. But the only game speed played any sort of factor was game one. The other games were about hitting, or pitching... on both sides. In fact, the fastest players on the marlins HURT the team after the first game, because they couldn't get on base.
There's an organization called SABR, who have devoted millions of man hours to the study of baseball. They analyze box scores from all of baseball history, and have come up with some pretty astounding ways of measuring sucess, and predicting future success, both for individual players, and teams.
And it turns out, that the most important aspect of hitting is getting on base.
Here's an article from baseballprospectus on stealing bases.
"Think of stealing bases as a bit like one of those commercials for breakfast cereal. You know, the ones where they say it takes 14 bowls of Cereal X to equal what you get from one bowl of Cereal Y. In this case, it takes three stolen bases to equal one walk of shame back to the dugout. If you're stealing at less than a 75% success rate, you're better off never going at all.
A runner on first with no one out is worth .9116 runs. A successful steal of second base with no one out would bump that to 1.1811 runs, a gain of .2695 expected runs. If that runner is caught, however, the expectation--now with one out and no one on base--drops to .2783, a loss of .6333 expected runs. That loss is about 2.3 times the gain.
Not all steals come with a runner on first and no one out, of course, and there's a lot of math that goes into the 75% conclusion. Michael Wolverton covers the concept in this excellent piece. The main point is that in considering stealing bases, you have to consider both the benefit and the cost. In all but the most specific situations, outs are more valuable than bases, which is why the break-even point for successful base-stealing is so high.
Much of the frustration "statheads" have with base-stealing isn't that it's happening, but with how teams misuse the tactic. You want to steal bases when: The value of one run is of great importance. In general, one-run strategies--steals, bunts, hit-and-run--are overused early in games. Especially in today's game, teams aren't willing enough to give themselves a chance at a big inning, and cut off a rally with a caught stealing where no attempt would have been the best choice.
The batter at the plate is a double-play threat. Stealing makes more sense with a right-handed batter up than a left-handed one, and with a groundball hitter up rather than a strikeout or flyball hitter.
The batter at the plate is much more likely to score the runner from second than he is from first. Teams will often use their best base stealers at the top of the lineup, even players with low on-base percentages, in front of their most powerful batters. In fact, they should be using those players lower in the lineup, in front of their least powerful hitters. Risking an out to advance from first base to second base is much more important when the guy at the plate can't get the runner home from first base.
The vaunted secondary effects of stealing bases--distracting the pitcher, putting pressure on the defense--do not appear to exist. In fact, most secondary effects argue in favor of keeping the runner of first base. A runner on first is more disruptive to a defense, with the first baseman holding and the second baseman cheating towards second for a double play, than a runner on second. Additionally, studies show that stolen-base attempts negatively impact the performance of the batter at the plate, presumably due to hitters getting themselves into negative counts by taking pitches or swinging at bad balls to protect the runner.
While you can use stealing bases to assist in run scoring, you can't run your way into a good offense. The core elements of offense are getting on base and advancing runners on hits. Teams--more often managers--that announce plans to create more runs by stealing bases are usually saying, "we can't hit, and we hope that if we move around a lot, no one will notice." It won't work. Here are the top basestealing teams since the 1993 expansion:
There looks to be a little more of a relationship here, which can be attributed to good offenses having more runners on base, and therefore more opportunities to steal. Certainly, though, a number of these teams eschewed the stolen base and yet still ranked among the best offenses of the period.
One last note that deserves mention: For all the attention the running teams of Whitey Herzog got--teams that were successful more because of their high OBPs than their stealing--the unheralded master of the running game is Lou Piniella. In his career as a manager, Piniella's teams have almost always been among the league leaders in stolen-base percentage:
*Piniella managed the Yankees for their first 93 games. Stats listed are for the full season.
Piniella identifies the guys who can steal bases at a high rate of success and lets them run, while not wasting outs with the other guys. That's how you use the stolen base as a weapon."
And another one on offense-
"efore delving into those harrowing inhabitants of the Baseball Prospectus statistics page like VORP, RARP, EqA or any other acronym that sounds like a debutante sneezing or something uttered on Castle Wolfenstein circa 1986, it's worth asking: What's wrong with those comfy traditional offensive measures like RBI, batting average and runs scored?
This Baseball Prospectus Basics column is going to address that question and, ideally, demonstrate why the traditional cabal of offensive baseball statistics tell only a piece of the story. Later, someone smarter (but shockingly less handsome) than I will take you on a tour of the more advanced and instructive metrics like the aforementioned VORP, RARP and EqA. For now, though, we'll keep our focus on why we need those things in the first place.
Many of the stats you encounter in mainstream baseball circles are what we call "counting stats." That is, they count things: 23 homers, 107 RBI, six triples, etc. This may sound painfully obvious, but the more a hitter plays in a given season, the higher his counting stats are likely to be. Some counting stats, like RBI and runs scored, are highly team and batting-order dependent. A cleanup hitter logging 600 plate appearances in a potent lineup must work very hard not to rack up at least 100 RBI. Whereas a leadoff hitter on an otherwise weak offensive team won't crack the 100-RBI mark no matter how effective he is. If a superior player is surrounded by weak hitters, it's entirely possible that he'll cash in on a much greater percentage of his RBI opportunities and still have a lower RBI total than a lesser player in a stronger lineup.
The thing to understand about counting stats is that, absent supporting information, they're really only useful at the margins. That's to say, it's hard to rack up 140 RBI and somehow stink. Conversely, it's difficult to log a season's worth of plate appearances, total 40 RBI and somehow be any good.
The flip side of this is that it's entirely possible, especially in eras conducive to run scoring, to break the vaunted 100-RBI barrier and still be an ineffective player. It's debatable what the worst 100-RBI season is, but Ruben Sierra in 1993 may be hard to beat. More later on why he was a lousy player that season.
So, highly context-dependent counting stats like RBI and runs scored can be inflated or deflated by a panoply of factors that have nothing to do with that hitter's true abilities. One of the prevailing missions of sabermetrics is to evaluate the player in a vacuum: What's he doing independently of his teammates and environment? Using only RBI or runs scored to judge a player or to frame an argument at the tavern is a fool's errand.
Home runs, since they have almost nothing to do with a hitter's teammates, are more reliable than RBI, but they're still not an ideal metric. It's fully possible for a player with fewer home runs than another to be a far superior player. How's that? Again, it's context. Home runs (and singles, doubles, triples, etc.) aren't lineup- and teammate-dependent like RBI and runs scored, but, like any other unadjusted statistic, they are dependent upon the ballpark and, when comparing players across history, the era (more on park and league effects later in this series).
Another factor to consider when comparing hitters is the notion of positional scarcity. This is the idea that it's easier to find good hitters at the less demanding defensive positions than it is at those positions that require a great deal of skill with the glove. The less demanding positions are the corner slots: left field, right field, third base and first base. The more exacting positions are those up the middle: catcher, shortstop, second base and center field. Up-the-middle defenders handle more balls and cover more ground than corner players, or, in the case of the catcher, they have defensive duties distinct from those who man other positions.
So if a first baseman and a shortstop have identical offensive statistics and equal defensive abilities relative to their positions, who's the better player? The shortstop, because the offensive-productivity bar for shortstops is notably lower than it is for first baseman, since it's far easier to find a good-hitting first baseman than it is a good-hitting shortstop. Generally, from highest level of positional scarcity to least, the positions go shortstop, catcher, second baseman, center fielder, third baseman, right fielder, left fielder and first baseman. Those can vary from year to year, but most seasons up-the-middle defenders who can hit will always be rarer beasts than corner players who can hit. This is why Alex Rodriguez is such a special player: He hits like an All-Star first baseman, yet he plays the most challenging defensive position on the diamond, and does it well to boot. Again, many stats you'll find on this site are already adjusted to reflect the demands of the position.
And what of batting average? Well, it's a percentage stat and not a counting stat, so it has a somewhat different set of concerns and caveats. First, it's subject to sample-size errors. To provide an extreme example, a hitter who goes one for three on Opening Day and one who plays the entire season going 200 for 600 will both be hitting .333 when you check the box scores; however, it's the latter hitter whose .333 average is more legit. Why? Because it's been borne out over time, whereas the former hitter may be a banjo-hitting fringe player who had a lucky day. (As an aside, counting stats are also prone to a different kind of sample-size error. It's the dread "on pace to" statistical distraction. When some unlikely player is, say, leading the league in RBI after the first two weeks of the season, we'll hear how he's "on pace" to put up 380 RBI on the season or some such nonsense.) Basically, if a hitter is doing something that's completely out of step with the rest of his career, you should be skeptical and demand a larger sample before you buy into those reports that his stroke has been tweaked or how he's seeing the ball better since he started drinking liver smoothies. Sample size is a major principle to grasp, and you'll never look foolish by being roundly unmoved by what a player does in the first few weeks of the season.
That's not all that's wrong with batting average. As much as the .300 hitter is a lionized, what does that really tell us about a player? It tells us he got a hit of some kind in 30% of his at-bats. We have no idea what kinds of hits he got, and we have no idea how he fared in terms of reaching base by other means. We don't even know how many times he came to the plate.
When dealing with percentage statistics, having at least a rough idea of the number of plate appearances is essential. And as far as batting average goes, you can tell much more about a player if his average (AVG) is presented along with his on-base percentage (OBP) and slugging percentage (SLG).
OBP is how often a player reached base via hit, walk or hit by pitch; among traditional offensive statistics, it's the most important. The higher a player?s OBP, the less often he?s costing his team an out at the plate. Viewed another way, 1-OBP = out %. In other words, OBP subtracted from the number 1 will yield the percentage of how often a hitter comes up to bat and uses up one of his team?s 27 outs for that game. A player can play all season, rack up impressive counting stats and still be using up far too many outs.
SLG measures a player's power, albeit not perfectly. It places more value on extra-base hits than it does on singles, and what you're looking at when you see a hitter's SLG is the total bases he averages per at-bat. For example, a player with a .500 SLG averages one-half total base per at-bat.
You'll often see AVG, OBP and SLG presented in the following format: .300/.400/.500, where .300 is the player's AVG, .400 is the player's OBP and .500 is the player's SLG. Another statistic you can glean from this "holy trinity" is Isolated SLG, which is the player's SLG minus his AVG. This expresses how much "raw" power he's producing by focusing solely on his extra-base hits. So of the trinity, AVG, which by far the most popular and heavily relied upon, really provides you with the least important information. It's good info in the presence of OBP and SLG, but by itself it's almost as useless as RBI.
What's a good OBP and SLG? Well, as we've already mentioned, offensive statistical standards depend greatly upon a player's era, home ballpark and defensive position. Generally speaking, if a player today puts up a .360 OBP and .500 SLG, he's doing his job. If he's a shortstop in Dodger Stadium with these numbers (and with an ample number of plate appearances, of course), he's an MVP candidate; if he's a first baseman in Denver with these numbers, he's nothing special. Again, context is where the rubber hits the road. (We discuss OPS, the stat that adds OBP + SLG, later in this series.)
Remember our pal Ruben Sierra and his 101 RBI from 1993? Let's go back and look at him, knowing what we know now. Yeah, there's his 101 RBI. But that season his trinity numbers were .233/.288/.390. Those are ugly, and they get even uglier when you recall that he split his time between DH and the outfield corners. That means he had little defensive value, and, hence, his offensive standard was higher than that of most players. A .288 OBP and .390 SLG are patently unacceptable for a corner defender, no matter how many RBI he racks up.
So, in summary:
Counting stats (RBI, HR, runs scored) aren't very informative because they're highly context dependent and don't account for how many outs a player is using up.
Percentage stats are far better than counting stats, but only in the presence of a sizeable data sample (i.e., plate appearances).
Percentage stats are only negligibly influenced by teammates and lineup slotting, but, like all traditional statistics, they are influenced by ballpark and historical era.
Players at the corner positions generally produce better offensive numbers than those players at the more vital up-the-middle positions.
AVG isn't really useful unless viewed in tandem with OBP, SLG and plate appearances.
And the greatest of these is OBP because it can also tell you how often a player creates outs at the plate.
And that's that. Like I said, there's a whole other world of statistics out there besides the ones that have been foisted upon you since you bought your first set of Topps. Now that you know what's wrong with traditional offensive statistics, you're ready to arm yourselves with the tools of state-of-the-art baseball analysis."
Sorry for foisting this on everyone. At the heart of all of this, comes the fact that to score runs you need to not make outs. Runs roughly corresponds to 1.4(OBP)+SLG, on a teamwide basis.
You can delve through baseballprospectus.com for some REALLY good stuff. Non math geeks won't like it, but the simple fact of the matter is that these guys have done some serious work into understanding how the numbers of baseball correspond to successful teams and players. They've done it by ignoring anecdotal evidence, and working with the raw statistics.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
*dies*
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
*Watches as thread goes down in flames*
Posted by Shlomo (Member # 1912) on :
Oh boy.
A girl in my grade from AP psycology recently told me that clinical insanity is "expecting different results from the same recurring event". If that is the case, ninety percent of the prognosticating world should be institutionalized. No, the Marlins have not forgotten how to play baseball after a few months off. They're still the best team in the game, just as they had been for about 3 months when I last posted in October.
It's the Marlins all the way. Again. And again. And again. I cannot fathom how people could say otherwise, having seen or at least heard about game six of the NLCS.
P.S. Have I mentioned that I predicted a Heat playoff berth, and possible Finals berth, in preseason, right after Riley quit?
Yeah, we'll be fine.
Posted by graywolfe (Member # 3852) on :
As long as the Yanks, Dodgers and Braves fail, all will be right with this world. I've got no axe to grind w/Florida, never did (I loathed the Yanks and was cheering the Marlins on even though I dislike them as well), but I do believe the Marlins are unlikely to make a serious run this year at anything beyond an NLDS bet, however it's a good year to be a contender in the NL because there are no thoroughly dominant teams as there once were in the NL. The Braves are begining their descent, the Giants are as well (though the west is so poor they might win it again), and the Cubs look the strongest of the lot but Houston and St. Louis might surprise. The East is just as bizarre, after Boston and New York, who do you have? Oakland, Seattle and Anaheim should contend, but they're unlikely to be a threat to Boston or New York although a major surprise could happen.
I'm interested to see how my beloved Indians do this year, young, raw, but hugely talented at the farm level, this team might have contended this year, if not for two Tommy John surgeries that had to be done on two of their rookies from last year. They won't contend for anything this year although they might have a slight shot at the Central if the other squads fail miserably.
Anyway good luck to everyone's teams (save the Yanks, Braves, and Dodgers, can't wish any of them good luck).
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Paul Goldner, you are fascinating.
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
Paul......wow. you have mucho time on hand. that is wow. Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Preach it, Brother Paul!
Actually, the AL East has a good chance of being the toughest, top-to-bottom division in MLB. The O's and Jays improved, and, well, the Rays have more experience
-Bok
Posted by graywolfe (Member # 3852) on :
Vegas is most certainly NOT on the Florida band wagon. Of course they can and have been wrong in the past, but I don't see the Marlins sniffing another World Series Title this year. The East is ripe for the taking with Atlanta continuing it's slow trek back down the mountain and Philly questionable and the NL as a whole has lots of weaknesses, but I don't see Florida making it back.
Posted by Shlomo (Member # 1912) on :
You didn't see it last year either.
Posted by graywolfe (Member # 3852) on :
?
I made no prediction on here last year as to who would win the Championship. I wasn't posting much here last spring on anything besides 24.
Do you seriously think Florida is going to repeat, or are you just goofing on the "Homer" stereotype?
I think they can contend, but w/the free agent losses, and w/the team as a whole, i think they won't be there in the Series again. Playoffs is possible, but the World Series? I seriously doubt it. My teams will be on the outside looking in, so outside of fantasy ball, I'll be focusing on soccer, the Stanley Cup, and Training Camp/Preseason in the NFL.
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