quote:

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PHILADELPHIA (Oct. 2) - Three high school football players were charged Thursday with sodomizing younger teammates during a hazing at a preseason training camp.

The teens have been under investigation by authorities and a grand jury in Pennsylvania for allegedly sexually torturing the teammates with a broomstick, pine cones and golf balls during the Aug. 22-27 camp in Preston Park, about 125 miles north of Philadelphia.

State police said the alleged victims, a 13-year-old and two 14-year-old boys, were threatened, beaten and then violated with foreign objects covered in a pain-relieving cream. Two of the suspects are 16, the other is 17.

The suspects, members of the Mepham High School football team in Bellmore, N.Y., face a list of juvenile court charges, including involuntary deviate sexual intercourse, kidnapping, aggravated assault, unlawful restraint and false imprisonment.

Sixty players and five coaches from the team attended the camp. Officials said the coaches slept in a different cabin from the players and were unaware of any problems until a parent complained to a principal at the high school.

None of the teens has been arrested. They will be asked to voluntarily travel to Pennsylvania to face the charges, and warrants will be issued if they refuse, prosecutor Mark R. Zimmer said.

Investigators are still trying to determine if charges against other students or adults are appropriate.

The Long Island school suspended three players from the team pending the outcome of the investigation, and the Bellmore-Merrick school district canceled the team's season.

The names of the players who were charged were not released Thursday and it was not immediately clear if the defendants were the three suspended players.

Larry Spern, an attorney for one of the suspended players, would not confirm whether the boy he represents was among those charged. He said he could not comment on the charges.

Attorneys for two of the other suspended teens did not immediately return phone calls.

While the teens were charged as juveniles, Zimmer said he is considering whether to transfer the case to an adult court. If they are charged as adults and convicted, the teens could face significant jail terms.

''We are hoping that Mr. Zimmer will do everything in his power to ensure that (the suspects) are prosecuted as adults,'' Robert P. Kelly, an attorney for two of the alleged victims. ''This goes way over any juvenile hazing.''

Bellmore-Merrick Superintendent Thomas Caramore said he was ''encouraged that the process is moving forward and that justice will be served.''

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quote:

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This goes way over any juvenile hazing

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You got that right! I don't think the book can be thrown hard enough against these "kids".

Hobbes
 

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Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
 


This is sickening. There should be consequences for the "kids" (yeah, right) who did this, consequences for the coaches - whose job it was to know what was going on "in the other cabin", and consequences for the parents who raised these little criminals.


 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 
Wow. That's pretty shocking.
 

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Posted by ikantspel (Member # 5752) on :
 
I think these kids should be charged as adults, that way when Bubba and his friends corner them in the laundry room ,they'll know how it feels.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 

 

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Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
 
Just another shining example of what happens when the golden boy athletes always ALWAYS get a pass on everything.

These boys have probably been getting away with stuff since they started pee wee football. It's about time somebody finally put their foot down.

Of course, the perpetrators haven't really suffered any substantial punishment yet, so I guess the foot hasn't quite been put down.
 

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Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
 
when i read things like this i wonder where they got the idea. i wonder if this was initiation for them.

i don't mean that in any sort of mitigating of guilt way. they deserve punishment for what they've done. i just wonder if there isn't a group of 19's that deserves some punishment for doing it to them and a group of 21's that deserves it for doing it to them, ect.
 

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Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
 
Three 10, 11, and 12year old boys beat 7year old girl after tying her to a tree, then leave without freeing her.

[ October 04, 2003, 02:56 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 


When I read Hearts in Atlantis, I thought to myself, "King is a good storyteller, but this kids beating kids thing is just too far-fetched."

I guess I was wrong.
 

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Posted by wieczorek (Member # 5565) on :
 

quote:

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I think these kids should be charged as adults , that way when Bubba and his friends corner them in the laundry room ,they'll know how it feels.

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I agree - if they're going to "act like adults" (as many of the teens and/or younger children involved in these hazing acts say it makes them feel mature - I'm not talking about the victims) then they should be charged as adults.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Begin rant:

The offending kids should get the jail/pison time and then the assistance that might give them the opportunity to rebuild something out of their life. This opportunity should come AFTER the victims' needs have been attended to and the offenders hae reached a point of shame for their actions and a willingness to provide some restitution. The parents of the offending children need to be shot. Or severely whipped with a buggy lash. Or sentenced to a life of hard labor. They need to pull their f---ing heads out of their a--es and get a clue. As did apparently their parents. I hope we are all done with trying to make up for depression era sufferings and "my lawn is greener than yours" b.s.

End Rant:

The world's gone mad. With any luck it'll just implode soon.

*Sickened, saddened, enraged*

(edited for spelling/grammar)

[ October 04, 2003, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Shan ]
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
I can't believe the kids are getting off this easy!
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 

quote:

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Just another shining example of what happens when the golden boy athletes always ALWAYS get a pass on everything.

These boys have probably been getting away with stuff since they started pee wee football. It's about time somebody finally put their foot down.

---

quote:

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The parents of the offending children need to be shot. Or severely whipped with a buggy lash. Or sentenced to a life of hard labor. They need to pull their f---ing heads out of their a--es and get a clue. As did apparently their parents. I hope we are all done with trying to make up for depression era sufferings and "my lawn is greener than yours" b.s

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quote:

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Males have been using their winkies to dominate the world for millennia.

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quote:

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Males have been using their winkies to dominate the world for millennia.

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First off: If you don't put "EVIL males" before that statement, it will REALLY piss off a lot of the men here.

Second: What makes you think it's our "winkies"--as you so eloquently put it--that allowed us to dominate? Men's superior physical strength is what did it. Our "winkies" had nothing to do with it.
 

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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 

quote:

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First off: If you don't put "EVIL males" before that statement, it will REALLY piss off a lot of the men here.

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quote:

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That wouldn't be accurate though, as illustrated by the Spartan example she gave, where sodomy was considered normal and where 'evil' and 'decent' males alike probably did it.

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Okay, the Spartans of Ancient Greece is ONE example of how that's partly true. What about others? Who ruled in Rome? In Byzantine? In Egypt? All men. Not because of their "winkies".

Not that I believe that men should have ruled, I just resent the implication that the only reason why men can do anything at all is because of what's in between their legs.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Although, it is the testosterone that leads to the formation of a winkie AND creates the superior strength.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
And it's dingle. Not winkie.
 

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Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
*becomes devil's advocate*

Before everyone grabs their pitchforks and torches, maybe what needs to happen is an investigation into the nature and the context of the crime. What also needs to happen is physcological assesment of those involved, to see if all we can do for them is lock them in their cells and throw away the key as so many of you would like.

*/devils advocacy*

Actually, my devil's advocate side isn't much differant from my regular side. It might still be possible that these kids can help out society in the end. However, I don't see any need in punishing them for, what is it, 25 years? When they could be doign something to help others instead of becoming another drain of society. Thats pretty much my views on a lot of crimes of this nature.
 

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Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
*becomes devils advocate*

Another thing is that there is no way for the coaches to have known that there was a problem. I don't know about you, but i wouldn't want people constantly watching me while I slept. It becomes the victims responsibility to let people know when something like that happens.

*/devils advocacy*

While its true that the coaches couldn't have known about it at the time it was happening wihtout actually wathcing them 24/7(which coaches shouldn't an can't do.)

However, I have a feeling that the coaches wern't very perceptive people to not know something was wrong the next day. Perhaps there needs to be a feeling of more openess in the camp.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
I AM REALLY SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was really going for the "we have come a long way as a species" effect, and I did not think the "winky" comment all the way through!

I was actually meaning within male sub-societies(which, mostly, have ruled the world), that homosexual acts were used to dominate other MEN. I was trying not to go in the direction of the man-woman-power-winky connection. My poorly-made point was that sexually invasive hazing goes back a long way, and used to be part of initiation in many secret, or not-so-secret, clubs. Now, we think it is wrong, and that is good.

I am very, very, very sorry to offend you fellows.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
This site talks more about what I meant.

"The active-passive partner arrangement as described in Grecian culture was also operative in Roman culture."

http://www.williamgstroop.com/Sunday%20Classes/Sexuality/HS%20Class%205.htm#greece

Again, I am very sorry.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Well, I'm not.

The "boys will be boys" thing and "girls will be girls thing" needs to end. I really don't care how far back in history it goes. Just because it's "historical" doesn't mean it needs to continue - or are we all saying that historically speaking, slavery should be continued? (Which it actually is, under the new name of trafficking, but that's another thread)Or "Jew" hating and persecution? Or the subjuagation of women, because we are the "weaker" sex? Or child abuse and neglect? Create your own list of historical commonalities and then see if it's something you really want in this world for you or your children or your family.

Granted, perhaps I started ranting a little too soon, but do any of you recall the incident in this past year which involved hazing (off campus) and the parents just didn't get why their little darlings who had done the deed should be punished? After all, that might "ruin" their chances for college, successful careers, etc.

Whatever happened to ethics, common sense and decency? Why shouldn't parents be held accountable? We are, after all, their first teachers, and while they are considered "minors" by law, we are responsible for them. That includes teaching them how to treat others respectfully, decently and as a valued human being. It includes parents teaching their children that they do NOT deserve to be treated in ways that devalue them, degrade them or hurt them. And it includes parents teaching their children ways of keeping themselves safe.

And when minors treat each other in the way the article describes, there should be swift, just punishment and reparation. TO THE VICTIMS and their families. By the perpetrators and their families.

I know - a pipe dream.

In a day and age where professional athletes and actors and politicians and musicians get away with this crap, how could any parent be expected to hold their children accountable to common decency.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
I wouldn't be opposed to the parents bearing financial responsibility for the actions of their children. But beyond that, when it comes to jail time or other punishments, you hold responsible the perpetrators of actions, not their parents.

I have known teenagers who came from very well-meaning and moral parents who nevertheless did awful things. Haven't you? I just think it assumes way too much to say that the parents never tried to raise them. There are many other influences on our children besides the parents.

As for the opening of your post, I'm trying to interpret whether you are intending to pick up the mantle of the "men are responsible for the ills of our society" rant . . .
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
I remember one time in a high school close to mine they sodomized this one guy with a plunger and burst his appendix or something and he almost died. THAT was a shock.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Good heavens, Icky!

That was not the point of my rant at all!

I just see one too many stories, articles, studies about children gone astray and in the words of mack's earlier thread (slightly paraphrased) where were the parents? Or the responsible adults?

I wasn't on a man-hating rant.

Mercy!

Please re-read.

If anything, I was on a parent-bashing diatribe (directed to those parents - which I have NOT seen here on Hatrack) that leave their children to the tender mercies of all those "other" influences - and don't take the time to pass on those values that I spoke of earlier -

perhaps I judge too harshly, maybe they weren't taught those values either and I just live in some fairy-tale land -

but I don't think so -

if anything, our culture has found one too many excuses for ill behavior and not any reason for taking responsibility and cleaning up the mess.

If that makes any sense at all -
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
Shan, you need to reread your post from 7:07. It sounded exactly like that to me, also.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
And hey, this thread is exactly why we need an angel smilie. Is no one impressed that I haven't said a word about men? :angle smilie:
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Let's see - is this the comment that is bothering people? I believe it mentions both sexes . . .

quote:

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The "boys will be boys" thing and "girls will be girls thing" needs to end.

---

If you all would like, I'll reverse the order.

The "girls will be girls" thing and the "boys will be boys" thing -

everyone happy?

I still think that perpetrators need to be punished and the restitution (of whatever sort) needs to come from the perp and family to the victim and their family.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
Shan, I think it had more to do with Elizabeth's post. She apologized for what she said, and then you said, "Well, I don't."

I'm now thinking you meant you weren't apologizing for your own comments, but at the time, it seemed like you might be defending Elizabeth's comments.

Just thought I'd mention it. No one was trying to put words in your mouth. It was just that your last post could be read two ways. Sorry.

Cool?
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Way cool.

Sorry if I am seeming biting and sarcstic.

I think I probably was picking right up from where she left off -

sigh -

I really do excel at shooting form the hip on the hip on the keyboard . . .

Pax
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
Peace. I promise I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. Rather, I noted the same ambiguity Kayla pointed out, and I was trying to ask if that was where you were headed.

Which is completely different from the parent issue. On that point, I simply don't want to take it for granted that if the kids do bad things the parents must be lousy parents.

[ October 04, 2003, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
 

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Posted by ikantspel (Member # 5752) on :
 

quote:

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I remember one time in a high school close to mine they sodomized this one guy with a plunger and burst his appendix or something and he almost died. THAT was a shock.

---

HOLY @#*$, can you imagine the pain? These are the guys who need to meet Bubba.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
HEY!

SOMEONE NOTICE MY ATTEMPT AT LEVITY!


 

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Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
 
*notices Mack's attempt at levity*



*pokes Mack, runs*
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
*tackles Nick and gives him a monkeybump*

I've been practicing.
 

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Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
 
*rubs head*

What's a monkeybump?
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Monkeybumps explained, ad nauseum.
 

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Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
 
Revised post:

*rubs upper thigh*



Mack:
 

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Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
 
I really despise the "boys will be boys" and "girls will be girls" excuse that people use to justify some peoples their actions. I just want you to know that.

quote:

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I still think that perpetrators need to be punished and the restitution (of whatever sort) needs to come from the perp and family to the victim and their family.

---

I mean this in a general term, and not an accusation sort of way: can you think of any sort of restitution from anyone that can be given to those kids?

And just to point out my opinion on the matter:

Kids of their age doing what they were doing, do NOT always fall upon actions that parents have taken in raising their kids. They are old enough to know about the value of someone elses life for themselves.
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
This thread made me want to cry, but I squeezed my dingle real tight and I didn't have to cry anymore...
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
o_O
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Yeah T, I can think of lots of ways of making restitution or amends.

I'll just start with a small homegrown sample for y'all. Nathan and his dad throwing around a soft ball at his dad's house. Apparently, he accidently threw it a little off and it hit his dad's windshield. His dad told him "don't worry - it's okay - accidents happen." Neither of them told me.

Instead, I spent a week with a child who refused to take compliments on positive behaviors and well-done schoolwork, who didn't want the chore money he had earned, etc. This was puzzling to me. Until his dad dropped him off the next weekend and I met them outside and saw the van. Hmmm.

I asked what happened. Got the story above, along with "Really, it's okay, he doesn't need to worry about it." I sent Nathan in to open some rootbeer and said to his dad, "I understand it's an accident. That doesn't mean he isn't in some way responsible for helping to fix the problem that he created. This is important that he be given the opportunity to make amends. This is how we do it - here at home, at school and at church. I want you to back this up."

(Remember - Greg is newly returned to Nathan's life.)

Nathan brings out the rootbeer, they drink it and then Greg talks with Nathan. Yes, the poor child has been feeling bad and ashamed. Yes, he WOULD like the chance to to do something to make amends. He obviously doesn't have the money for a new windshield but he can do other things. They agree on an afternoon's worth of chores and (Nathan's idea) a "sorry" card. A written apology and promise to be more careful. He immediately started feeling a little more cheery and upbeat -

It's places like this where it begins - where children learn that even when they accidently break or hurt or whatever, they are responsible (and competent and capable) to make amends. Parents help guide them through that.

Depending on the victims in the situation, I would definitely say that the following would be in order, with parental involvement at all levels- this is in no particular order. Perhaps it should be fairly concurrent.

Written apologies. By the entire family to the entire family as well as the individual perp to victim. Crime does NOT happen in a vacuum. It affects the intended victims, the family, the community - crime laws in old England a couple of a hundred years ago recognized this.

Some sort of graphic, medically correct discussion about what sorts of injuries the perp's caused the victims. (I can guarantee the victims have been receiving this from their doctors.) Again - entire family involvement. This could help to take the blinders off and perhaps allow for an "a-ha moment - I/he/she really did hurt someone. In a way that I/he/she would not like to be hurt."

Community service - with family involvement. For quite some time.

And then individually? Earning the money to pay back all or part of the medical bills. Teens, right? They can flip burgers and do other things to make some monetary restitution.

Some ideas for you - but then, maybe I'm harsh.

I'm also the mom that insisted her 8 year old last summer pay twice what he had stolen from a friend's house floor (with that caveat, the total came to maybe $2.50), write an apology and confess to these people at church before Sunday School. Yes, it was hard on him, and yes I wish I could have skipped having to be the firm parent. But, you know what - he hasn't done such a thing since. And I don't think he will again.

IF anything, I need to spend more time teaching him how to keep himself safe. He knows how to be gentle and thoughtful. He knows how to say stop and no. He has me and other trusted adults to check in with about things. I think he still needs to learn martial arts . . . but given his seizure disorder, I really don't want him being bashed in the head. What a puzzle. Ah me! The joy, the challenge and the privilege of parenting.

I'll stop blathering and have some breakfast and get ready for church.

Have a lovely day!
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
That was very well thought out, Shan. I think those are good ideas. I don't think any of them are particularly harsh. But then, I totally agree on the "double what you stole" thing -- and I've made my kids do it, too.
 

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Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
 
those all sound like excellent suggestions for punishment and reform, but restitution?

both of your examples are things that can be replaced. money? glass? come on. these kids didn't take or break something they can replace.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
That's true, celia. But being responsible for the medical bills is a step in the right direction, neh? That may be as close to restitution as is possible.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
The only part I don't agree with is making the family do community service. They should already be financially responsible. On top of that, they have to face the fact of what their kids did. But as far as actual punitive measures . . . I dunno. I still say you punish the people who commit crimes, not other people you decide are also to blame.
 

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Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
 
Ya, cause if so, you'd be seeing a whole lot more celebrities or people in Entertainment being punished.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Well, Icarus - I am saying that the teen perps pay off the debt, not the parents. And I am suggesting that families that work through these things together are more likely to learn more AND(no "stats to back this up or even research, just good ole life experience) probably less likely to re-offend.

I repeat - crime doesn't just affect the victim. It affects the family, friends and surrounding community.

In a way, the perps are saying they don't belong to community by doing what they have done. Families pass along values, beliefs and ideals - ways of being and acting - I think it would be best for the families on both sides to participate - both in the healing and in the restitution.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
*shrug*

I guess we just disagree on this one. S'OK.


 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
I still like you, too!



did you and Cor get my e-mail?
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
Yes I did, thank you.

I intend to respond, but I'm waiting until I can sit down and be thoughtful. Right now I'm just posting quick off-the-cuff drive-by postings in breaks between grading. So, in the meantime . . . simply thanks!


 

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Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
 

Drive-by postings....

Icarus's humor
 

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Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
 
One thing I don't get-trying them as adults? Are we saying an act of violence is more the action of an adult than that of a child?
 

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Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
 
Very good point, Toretha, one that I've been thinking about. To put it bluntly, you can argue yes and no both ways and get good and bad points from each argument.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Have any of you watched the Lyon's Den with Rob Lowe? We flipped by it a couple of times, and yesterday there was a rich suburban version of the hatfields and the mccoy's that ended quite badly. But, the profound thing that was there, was that the parents had instilled the culture of hate into their children. And basically once the sensitive minds have been molded sometimes you end up heading down a path from which there is no point of return.

I'm not saying that parents are always responsible.... but sometimes they are.

AJ
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
Oh, I agree, AJ. In fact, I would say that the majority of the time parents are probably responsible. I just don't like the idea of assuming as a society that this is so. That the apple doesn't fall far from the tree may be a truism, but that doesn't mean that it's always true.

Look at the converse: haven't you ever known anybody who had rotten parents and still managed to become morally upright? It may not be common, but it does happen. If this happens, if people can rise above poor parenting, then the opposite must be able to happen as well, and people blessed with all of the best parenting must sometimes come out selfish, mean, or violent nonetheless. So to punish the parents based on what is ultimately an assumption about their devotion and their committment seems wrong to me. And if, after umpteen years of parenting, you are forced to reckon with the inescapable conclusion that, despite the best of intentions, and despite a true and honest effort, you have failed at your job, you have raised a morally corrupt person, then that seems like punishment enough. To do more seems like an unfair slap in the face.

Actually, I would go even further: I think that for our society to survive, we must parent as though we believe the character of our children depends solely on our actions, taking our responsibility as seriously and sacredly as possible, but we must as a society actually pretend the opposite in many circumstances. If we don't, we can't help but draw some pessimistic conclusions. That kid's parent is a drunk? Don't trust her, she can't possibly be a good person. That kid was molested? Keep him away from kids, because you know what he's learned to do. And it cuts the other way: if we accept that people who were not present at the commission of a crime, and in no way encouraged it, and in no way knew it was happening, bear responsibility for it, then we lessen the responsibility shouldered by the people who actually perpetrated it. I think over the last ten or twenty years, it has become common to find other people to distribute blame to, and the result that we have had is a decreased emphasis on personal responsibility, to the extent where there are entire philosophical schools of thought that will argue that personal responsibility is nothing but an illusion. I think that when we lessen our belief in personal responsibility or actions, society suffers. I know that Shan is not saying this, but I fear it as a logical extreme that blaming people who were not directly involved in a crime can--and has--been taken to.
 

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Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
 

quote:

---

PHILADELPHIA (Oct. 6) - A prosecutor said Monday he will seek to have three high school football players tried as adults on charges they sodomized teammates during a hazing at a preseason training camp.

''The impact these crimes have had on the victims and on their families is too terrible to consider,'' Wayne County District Attorney Mark R. Zimmer said.


The teens, members of the Mepham High School football team in Bellmore, N.Y., are accused of sexually torturing a 13-year-old and two 14-year-old boys with a broomstick, pine cones and golf balls. Two of the suspects are 16, one is 17.

Attorneys for the defendants did not immediately return calls for comment. Attorneys for the alleged victims released a statement supporting Zimmer's decision ''to prosecute as adults all three youths charged in this terrible assault.''

Sixty players and five coaches from the school attended the training camp in August in Preston Park, about 125 miles north of Philadelphia.

The coaches slept in a different cabin from students, and said they were unaware of any problems until five days after returning from camp, when a parent complained.

The school district on Long Island suspended the three accused players from school and canceled the football season.

The three had faced juvenile charges that included involuntary deviate sexual intercourse, kidnapping, aggravated assault and unlawful restraint.

Meanwhile, the 40-year-old father of one of the suspects was found dead in his North Merrick, N.Y., home over the weekend, police said. An autopsy was scheduled to determine the cause. The man's name was not released.

---

::scurrys back to work::
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
You are right, Icarus - I am not saying that we need to place the blame on other people for someone else's actions, at all. I mistrust and disagree with a lot of the victimization/entitlement BS that seems to permeate our political and social mores.

What I am advocating for is responsibility. And I totally agree that parenting is a sacred responsibility.

Which is one of the reasons I think parents need to be included on every aspect of the perpetrator's attempts to right or amend the cruel wrong they have done. We don't stop being teachers and guides for our children, even in their late teens, and we are certainly still responsible for them at that age - unless they have filed an action and been approved for adult status. And it's always possible that the parents might have something to learn at the same time.

*shrugs*

At any rate, I am deeply disturbed by the reported death of one of the teen's parents.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
Interesting idea.

Is there a way to involve the parents without making it too much like simply punishing them? Like maybe they oversee the perps doing their community service, or something like that?
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
I don't know, Icarus.

What I am thinking is this -

I have had my son actively involved in "giving back" to his community through service work since - well, forever. I really can't imagine another way of doing things. We live in our community and our community is important to us, so we offer our time, talents and help where we can. It's not something we do because we did something 'wrong" - it's something we do, because I believe it is important, and I am trying to teach my son that particular value.

However, I know there are those folks who don't think they need to be involved in their community at that level. To my mind, that creates a separation between the individual and the community. We teach our children our values and mores - by example and doing "it" with them.

I think it would be integral to rounding out the juvenile criminal justice system that families are involved together - we keep saying philosophically ( by that I mean the researchers, novelists, politicans, advocates, etc.) that criminal justice is useless without opportunity for improvement, growth, amends-making, etc. This would be an excellent area to practice that philosophy.

I don't think that it is fair or correct to say, "My child screwed up - oh well - he/she can sit in juvie for some period of time, pay $100.00 and clean up litter for a month." What does THAT teach the child? Or the parent for that matter.

IMHO, it teaches the child that consequences aren't really linked to the action and it teaches the parent that they really aren't responsible for guiding thier child in directions that are thoughtul, courteous, respectful.

Just my thoughts.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
The local news tonight says a Central Florida high school football team is being investigated for some kind of sexual hazing.


 

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