A Question for the Christians. If we are all gods children. Whats the big deal with Jesus?
Posted by Nagaer (Member # 5796) on :
He's just so dreamy.
Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
Well, Christmas is cool too.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
God does His best not to pick favorites, but you have to admit that Jesus makes the rest of us look like black sheep.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Baa.
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
Personally I think he just got a good publicist and when his boy friend (Pilot) got pissed at him and killed him his publicist promoted it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Ah. So you would be a troll, then. I was wondering.
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
No.. Not a troll just Irish.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: No.. Not a troll just Irish.
Maybe an Irish troll. Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
*Walks into thread wearing a "Kiss me I'm Irish" shirt. Looks around. Runs out*
Hobbes Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
This thread is not appreciated by all. You ought to know that.
Now I'm leaving.
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
*******REAL ANSWER*******
When you become a Christian you are accepted as an adopted child of God. The Bible says a "joint heir" Jesus was the son of God "begotten, not made."
However he is God.... Or his son.... Or a part of God....
Gah I confused myself again!
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
"That question is less stupid, though it was asked in a profoundly stupid way."
Actually, it's my understanding that Christian Scientists believe that there is no difference between us and Jesus in ability, only in comprehension of reality. That the material world around us is an illusion, and the "miracles" Jesus performed were simply changes in perception. Sort of a "mind over matter" belief taken to the next level.
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
I still dont see why we should all bow down and worship some guy who according to your bible is exactly the same as us. This confuses me and makes me so angry. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Ten bucks says it doesn't, really, and you're just trying to get people riled up.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
You. IrishRage. Get online. Right now.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Well "my" Bible doesn't say Jesus is the same as I am it, it says he is also a child of God. I certainly don't think that all children are equal to each other, and clearly all of God's children aren't. Now in terms of potential I think we all are equal, but I don't worship Jesus by saying "Jesus I'm so grateful what you could've done", I thank him for what He has done. Just like you thank someone who loaned you bus fair, you thank Jesus, but He's done a lot more than loan you bus fair so thanking Him takes a bit more energy.
Hobbes Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Ohh, and (((((Tom))))))
<--Tom
Hobbes Posted by Damander (Member # 4439) on :
Every single one of us is a spirit child of Heavenly Father. However, Jesus is the only one begotten of the Father in the flesh.
We worship Jesus because he is our Savior and Redeemer. He atoned for all our sins, but we must have faith in Christ and repent in order for the atonement to go into effect in our lives.
We worship him because he did for us what we could not do ourselves. We worship him because he loved us enough to give himself up as a sacrifice for our sins.
There is so much more I could say, but hopefully this will suffice to answer your question.
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
She's Mormon. Christians disagree with that.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
You, of course, meant to say, "non-Mormon Christians disagree with that." Or perhaps, "Not all Christians look at it exactly in that way."
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: Every single one of us is a spirit child of Heavenly Father. However, Jesus is the only one begotten of the Father in the flesh.
I agree with Damander's post except that part.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
dkw. If I didn't have to go the Mormon temple right now and devour another baby, I'd send you a little huggie smilie thing.
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
Nick- That would be the "that" I was obviously reffering to in my own mind.
Scott R- Mormons don't qualify as Christians.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
oh god.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: Scott R- Mormons don't qualify as Christians.
Why not? What makes a Christian a Christian?
Sure, I believe they are misguided when it comes to the matter of the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price, but I do not believe that their belief in those writings negates their belief in Christianity.
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
Let me clarify. I am not saying that Mormons eat babies, they are not good people, that I don't like them. I am just saying that I don't think you should classify them as Christians anymore than you should classify Christians under Judaists. The reason being their views of Jesus do not line up with evangelical Christian beliefs.
It's an opinion. Something your alowed to have.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: It's an opinion. Something your alowed to have.
That's true, but when expressing opinions, try not to have the matter-of-fact approach. Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
And also remember to use your and you're correctly. And spell check. That helps a lot.
Posted by kacard (Member # 200) on :
Watch it here gang - religious fights are not allowed For purposes of the living room of your host -- anybody who believes in Jesus Christ as their Savior and follows his teachings would be a Christian. The End.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
<this post was deleted upon seeing the post above it after it was posted>
thank you!!!!!!!! to kacard
[ October 12, 2003, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: Toretha ]
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
kacard Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
Oh my god, this has turned into a total mormon versus non-mormon bash. If people start dieing, I am so gunna report us, But besides that, im really enjoying this. -The Annoying Muslim Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Kristine and dkw posted exactly was I was going to post. Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: Oh my god, this has turned into a total mormon versus non-mormon bash. If people start dieing, I am so gunna report us, But besides that, im really enjoying this. -The Annoying Muslim
Not really. I'm not LDS. It's not a LDS vs non-LDS, it's more like LDS and non-LDS vs anti-LDS. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Nor am I LDS. And trying to start a "bash" won't really work here. We've put a lot of effort into learning to discuss religion respectfully, and we're not about to lose our cool over something this basic.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
Irish, are you really Muslim? That's so cool...
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
dkw, speak for yourself (that was tongue in cheek, if anyone has doubts.)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm reasonably sure "Irish" is not Muslim. I'm still trying to convince myself he's not Ryan Hart. *laugh*
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
My Muslim test: bism allaah irrahmaan irrahiim
Irish, what is that?
[ October 12, 2003, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: sarcasticmuppet ]
Posted by the Professor (Member # 5319) on :
. . .then somebody owes me mucho delinquient child support. Don't make get all litigious. . .
Morbo
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Irish is not Ryan, and he's not Muslim. Other than that I have no constructive advice on how to deal with him.
kacard- If I have a legit, earnest question about the whole naming thing, should I bring it up here, or ask someone privately? (has been wondering about this for a while)
Posted by kacard (Member # 200) on :
Either way, I'd love to hear what you have to say.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ryan, what on earth is a "Judaist"? Because if you mean someone who practices Judaism, I personally prefer to be refered to as a Jew.
Of course, if you're refering to people who practice Judy-ism, nevermindthen.
Posted by Obrom (Member # 5793) on :
"refering to people who practice Judy-ism"---drag queens? Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Never seen the comic Judy Tenuta, hmm?
Posted by Obrom (Member # 5793) on :
Oh, yeah, I haven't seen her in years! "Bow down before me!" She was weird and funny.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
As a member of the Church of Judyism, I am offended by your remarks. Posted by Obrom (Member # 5793) on :
Did you know Judy-ism caused the first gay riot? It's true--well,at least partially. Judy Garland
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Well, it means that when God your Father is ready t' do a smackdown on yer sorry tush, God your Brother is ready to take the licks for ya.
[ October 13, 2003, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote: Many gay bars were owned by the Mafia, and operated by a form of payola called gayola, paying off the police to look the other way.
gayola Posted by kacard (Member # 200) on :
Blacwolve -- silly me -- I thought your "question about naming" was going to be a complaint about people who use more than one name on the forum But that's fine -- I will answer you privately. Thanks, Kristine
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
kacard- Are you implying that some dastardly ne'er do-well is using more than one screen name, in this very thread?
The fiend!
[ October 13, 2003, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
::looks innocent::
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Oh, sorry, I'll go back and get rid of it. Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
bism allaah irrahmaan irrahiim = traditional islamic greeting, meaning may god be with you.
shout out to my muslim brother. allah hu acbar allah
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
Oh and Blacwolve I am muslim. Though Mary may not be doesnt mean that I am not.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Sorry, IR. I'm usually pretty good at getting a certain vibe from other Muslims and former Muslims, and you don't give off that vibe at all; my Islamadar isn't pinging even a little bit.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
Islamadar!
[ October 13, 2003, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
That was a stupid and unintelligent use of the name of our religion. I find islamadar to be totaly and utterly revolting.
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
I admit that my comment about jesus may have been out of line, but i would like people to stop giving me grief about being a muslim. If i have offended anybody, my apologies.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Oh, don't get me wrong. I, of all people, will give you no grief about being Muslim. I'll give you a heck of a lot of grief about pretending to be Muslim, though.
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
Im not pretending to be a muslim, and if you continue to push this you may find oyurself at the end of a very long string of angry posts. I am a muslim and I dont see why people doen believe it.
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
Becuase you act like a troll, that's why.
I doubt making threats is going to do anything but make most of us laugh.If you want to have a serious discussion about religion, I suggest you do a little research. Go back and look at the old religion threads, and see how we do things around here.
Ni!
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
a n g r y p o s t s [ayelar]
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
All right, IrishRageinthemachine, I have 2 quick questions that will establish if you are truly muslim. Are you ready?
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
shoot
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
You have to answer quickly, so you cannot google. Less than 2 minutes to answer.
IrishRage Member Member # 5792--posted October 13, 2003 04:15 PM ----shoot
[ October 13, 2003, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Rasputin ]
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
Bad spelling is fine, speed is what will convince me.
What are the 5 pillars of Islam? post the first 2 as soon as you type them.
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
Cat got your tongue? Any Muslim would know that, IrishConfused.
[ October 13, 2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Rasputin ]
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
Jeeez, I'm not even Muslim, never read the Q'uran and I know all 5 pillars.
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
Important acting advice, Anastasia or her sisters: do your homework before you go on stage. By then it's too late.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I suspect IrishRage's ISP is acting up.
Or there was a sudden RL emergency.
Or his fingers just locked up and WOULDN'T TYPE! Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
I doubt it, rivka. He or she said "shoot," indicating readiness to answer a question. I think its either Anastasia or someone else from that forum a few weeks ago that had fun with us, and now he's blown the gaff and is too chicken to just admit "ok, busted."
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
to bear witness that their is no other god than allah. la illlah hi in lallah muhhamedan rasullulah - there is no god but god and muhhamed is his prophet.
to observe prayer, salat
to pay alm, zakat
the pilgrimage
the fasting, ramadan
i was out of the house.
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
Sorry, I don't buy it.
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
Ready for round two?
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
Im gunna be at the gym for the next hour. I will post as soon as i am back. then i will be ready.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Time from IrishRage's "shoot" to Rasputin's question: 3 minutes.
Time from the question to IrishRage's answer: 67 minutes.
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
ok, you go study your lines
[ October 13, 2003, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Rasputin ]
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
*bok bok bok* Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
*looks at watch, taps feet*
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
Im here rasputin tell me what u got.
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
Nope dinner back later i guess
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
bok bok
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
Quit stalling. You already choked on the 5 Pillars, why don't you just throw in the towel?
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
I'm not sure, but I think IrishRage might be: BUSTED! BUSTED! BUSTED! BUSTED! Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm actually curious as to what question Rasputin has come up with.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
Me too, but I'm not sure whether IrishRage isn't Muslim yet.
Who knows?
I just just joking around.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Oh, I'm pretty sure IrishRage is not a practicing Muslim. There isn't an American Muslim I know who'd describe the second pillar as "to pay alm," for one thing.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
True. Who is this "alm" fellow? Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
hit me rasputin
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Don't forget, Tom—IrishRage is an Irish Muslim.
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
If IrishRage is Irish or Muslim, I sincerely apologize, and welcome him to the forum. Someone (was it you, Nick?) said they had chatted with IR and that he/she was definately not Muslim. He/she had also never heard of "a Prayer for the dying", an Irish book and movie.
Let me just say, I have no idea who IR is. You all know I'm fond of practical jokes, but not this one, I swear.
I just decided to throw down with IR and see if he/she is really Muslim. Slightly rude, but I think I'm right and it's a put-on.
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
Ready, IR?
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
just ask it
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
The Sh'iia and Sunni sects have been at each others throats for a long time. How long, approximately? What is the origin of their long blood feud? A short answer that contains any particulars may be acceptable. Bonus points for more detail.
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
arnt u gunna ask it putin?
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
already did--clocks ticking
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
tick tick
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
The sunni and the shiia have been in a state of feud since the british creation of afghanistan. This caused a minor party, the sunni to come to power over the larger shiia populace, this also occured when the british left iran, they put the minorities in charge so as to govern them more easily, this backfired causeing the feud we all know today.
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
so how long was that ago? how many years?
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
Sorry, you are off by more than 1000 years.
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
You should really brush up on those googling skills--they come in handy sometimes.
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
no my friend but you are wrong, that is not the feud we think of today, there was an ancient feud, but it was buried until the britsh caused the opening of an old wound.
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
the feud oyu think of is the murder of ali caliph after muhhameds death.
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
If you knew that why didn't you post it the first time?
What is the origin of their long blood feud?
seems pretty clear to me.
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
After muhhamed died, ali his cousin was killed by Sunnis, but after many years of retributionary warfare, that feud was buried. It is a feud dead until the british reopened it.
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
it was long but dead rasputin.
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
Dude, what part of "origin" do you not understand?
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
fien ask another if you so wish.
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
What title can a muslim who has made his pilgrimmage use?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Rasputin, you DO realize you've done the equivalent of proving that someone's Catholic by asking them to list the seven deadly sins and describe the Spanish Inquisition, right? Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
I cannot prove if he is or isn't Muslim...but all Muslims know the 5 pillars
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
ihram
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
if u have aim we can talk without hatrack, that would be better
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
I believe it is "al-Haij", I could be wrong---I will google your answer
Arabic Ihram, sacred state into which a Muslim must enter in order to perform the hajj (major pilgrimage) or the 'umrah (minor pilgrimage). At the beginning of a pilgrimage, the Muslim stops at a designated station to perform certain ritual cleansing ceremonies; each male shaves his head, cuts his nails, and trims his beard before donning a white, seamless, two-piece garment.
[ October 13, 2003, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Rasputin ]
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
the al-haji is the act of pilgrimage, the ihram is the person performing the pilgrimage
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
@ Tom's analogy -- very clever.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
And who was expecting the spanish inquisition?
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
but he is known as an ihram, a man purified, he cannot kill, or have sex, or harm plants when he is a ihram
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
hmmmm, we need a ruling from a real muslim. I know that after you pilgrimmage you can add something with "Haij" to your name. The definition of ihram says nothing llike that.
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
I am a real muslim, but if u wish to argue in length let us get on aim, i cannot stay on hatrack indefinitely
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
All right, i'll see you in "hatrack chat"
Invite yourself into the AIM chatroom "hatrack chat"
I think you are either Anastasia back for a rematch or someone else who is not Muslim, of course of course I could be wrong.
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
HOW DO I INVITE MYSELF IN?
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
I dont have aol, just instant messanger
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Add yourself to your buddy list. right click on your name. pick "sent chat invitation". in the screen that pops up when you do that, type in "Hatrack Chat" for the chatroom.
There you go.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
Seems interesting that you don't know how to get into Hatrack Chat when you've been there before tonight, IR.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
If you have completed a Hajj, you are a Hajji Mabroor ("accepted"). Ihram is the state of INTENTION to perform the Hajj, similar to the state of grace protecting someone who's undertaken a geas in Western myth; when someone announces his intention to complete the pilgrimage, he enters Ihram.
Ihram requires certain rituals and maintenance -- including chastity, grooming, special garments (called, not coincidentally, ihrams), and the like. If someone falls from ihram before completing the promised Hajj (there are multiple -- three, IIRC -- varities, each of which have different requirements) by falling from these standards, the pilgrimage is invalid and the supplicant must actually atone (in "khaffarah") for screwing it up. For this reason, many modern pilgrims cheat (IMO) by not officially "donning Ihram" until they're actually close to Mecca -- although not IN Mecca, because that would be cheating; there's actually an official BOUNDARY (called Miqat) that marks the nearest point where people have to don ihram.
The "titles" given to people who complete the different types of Hajj vary with the type of Hajj completed (including "Mutamatti," "Qiran," and some other ones I don't remember), but all those who successfully complete the Hajj are "Hajji Mabroor."
Calling someone "El Hajj" is, if I remember rightly, pretty much a black American corruption of the original, common to the Nation of Islam and the like.
[ October 13, 2003, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
Thanks for the clairfication, Tom. I appreciate it. So Irish came into HR chat for two minutes, said he was mad then split. Then he sent me a two-word IM I couldn't read---"until later"? and bailed in 30 seconds.
I'm wash my hands of the whole matter. Anyone who cares can talk to Irish and make up their own minds. Tom, I hereby declare you standard bearer against the infidels. (joke) Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Tom, I know you used to be Baha'i, and that that faith branched off from Islam (or "mainstream" Islam). I also seem to recall you recently claiming to be a former Muslim. Are you referring to the same religion, or was that two separate periods in your life? I always thought that Baha'i was separate.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Baha'is ARE separate, although they're Muslim -- as far as I now regard them -- in the same way that Mormons are Christian. Back when I was researching the Faith, though, I did a fair bit of research into Islam in general, and still have a fair number of Muslim (practicing and non-) friends.
Posted by kacard (Member # 200) on :
Ok gang. I wrote personally to Irish yesterday reminding him to be civilized. Now I'm reminding the rest of you. I think this very personal challenge has gone on long enough. Believe him or don't but drop it. You won't prove anything either way.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Cool. Do they consider themselves to be Muslim in the same way Mormons consider themselves Christians? Would mainstream Muslims consider them to be?
Posted by IrishRage (Member # 5792) on :
Well kacard whoever you are, thank you, it gets very ammoying when people make a huge deal out of not beieving your religion, I get a lot of it at home too.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
KACard is Kristine Card, the wife of Orson Scott Card. I think she's handling this quite well personally, either way, I would suggest treating her with plenty of respect, she's earned it.
Hobbes Posted by Rasputin (Member # 5409) on :
IrishRage just IM'd me. I agreed to give him the benefit of the doubt. Like Mrs. Card says, I didn't couldn't really prove anything either way. And quizzing him like I did was rude. I hate being rude .
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
Mack-Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
You're telling me. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Do they consider themselves to be Muslim in the same way Mormons consider themselves Christians? Would mainstream Muslims consider them to be?"
It depends. Baha'is consider themselves to be another step along the Muslim doctrine of progressive revelation. In other words, they believe Islam to be "true" -- as is Christianity -- but they're as far "advanced" beyond Muslims as Muslims consider themselves beyond Christians (and Christians consider themselves beyond Jews). That said, many of the prohibitions and almost all the (few) rituals of the Faith are Muslim in origin, if heavily modified, and the Faith's attitude towards the written words of the prophet is very Muslim in tone. As you might expect, American Baha'is are far more liberal and less "Islamic" than Persian-region Baha'is, although there's been a new wave of Baha'i fundamentalism -- which I find absolutely contradictory to its message -- in the last three decades or so that has begun to change the tone of the religion here in the States.
A Baha'i, if asked, will probably call himself a Baha'i -- but may well be mildly surprised if a Muslim or Christian were to declare that the Faith is neither Muslim NOR Christian, in the same way that Mormons are affronted by the same charge (for the exact same reasons). Unsurprisingly, the Shia LOATHE the Baha'i Faith, and consider it one of the lowest forms of Sunni-influenced apostacy; the Faith is illegal in many strongly Shia areas, and its practice is still punishable by death in Iran and Syria.
(Interestingly, the Faith has its own kind of Sunni/Shia split -- much like the Mormons. It's a tempest in a teapot thing, but it's led to a lot of the current fundamentalist tone.)
Oddly, the American branch of the Baha'i Faith probably most closely resembles a weird, Persian-influenced form of Quakerism. The more Persian you get, the more it looks like liberal Islam.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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<--Tom ![[Hat]](graemlins/hat.gif)
to kacard![[The Wave]](graemlins/thewave.gif)
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![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
(that was tongue in cheek, if anyone has doubts.)
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