A couple evenings ago I took my three daughters (14, 18, 20) out to supper. My eldest's boyfriend was along, too. At a busy taqueria, I stood post at the checkout while the gang made their orders and watched the burritos being wrapped, etc.
As each order in turn was tossed up the counter to the checkout, I asked the child what he/she wanted to drink. These then were added to the tab. There was a moment of confusion as boyfriend Dave and daughter Alexis realized belatedly that there was indeed a self-service soda pop machine in the restaurant proper. The result of this was that Alexis declined a drink altogether, while Dave asked for a Coke.
As we sat to eat, Alexis said, "you just don't get it, Dad... you never order more than one soda when there's self service" ... {snicker, nudge, wink} ... And it did take me a moment to realize what she meant.
I was abruptly reminded of a conversation I'd had with a friend several months ago, a friend with whom I was just getting acquainted; we'd been sharing, you know, our life histories and telling about our outlook and values and so forth, and she had said: "I'm scrupulously honest - for example..." and wouldn't you know the example that had come first to her mind - "I would just never be able to bring myself to go back for a refill on a self-service soda fountain without paying." (Obviously, unless it were advertised as free.)
Now, my daughter is 'poor' and in college, and speaks from a somewhat different level of need than my friend, who is affluent. But should affluence be a distinguishing mark in one's ethics?
Is "theft" more acceptable if it's only for $1.49?
Is "theft" ok if it is part of an acculturated way of living (e.g., college kid bumming around with holes in her pockets)?
What are you willing to do, or not willing to do, in comparable circumstances (no chance of getting caught, a sense of need, peer pressure, etc.)?
A related scenario, also starring the felonious Alexis, is from last summer. She worked in retail, and became intimately familiar with all the other retail establishments in the immediate neighborhood, and the other college kids working behind the other counters - and her mother and I gradually learned that this was a kind of thieve's underground, where any one of them could go into the shop where another worked, and get, say, a free ice cream, or a free sandwich, or slice of pizza. Sometimes these were extra orders or day-olds which would have been thrown out, but sometimes not. They observed an approximate quid-pro-quo, but all at the expense of their respective employers. I thought it was despicable, but Alexis (and all her buddies) thought that was hopelessly square of me - this didn't hurt anyone, it had a kind of internal logic, it had a bit of the thrill of 'beating the system' - it wasn't really stealing.....
Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
If a place has self serve drinks, I ask if there are free refills. Usually the answer is yes. If there are free refills I order the smallest, cheapest size. I might refill several times, but I figure that they do have free refills. I would never order just one drink for the whole group. Each person pays for a drink.
msquared
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Is it stealing? Yeah.
Then again, the restaurant (in the soda case) laughs at its customers because the price of the soda and the cup is like $0.15. *shrug*
As for the restaurant case, speaking from experience I can tell you that employers actually factor in those sorts of things when they pay wages. This is one of the ways they can pay minimum wage, after all.
None of this is to say that thievery is OK or acceptable, just to put a broader view on it, and there is a broader view. So when life is looked at under a microscope, yeah, I'm a thief too. Perhaps I should feel bad about this, but I don't. Now, do I steal from people who aren't laughing at me behind my back at how much of a sucker I am? Nope.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Trying to think of some clever way you can steal from Alexis as a faceless institution. For instance, has she left anything behind at your home as a college student? Oh well. I guess if she doesn't know better by now... I don't mean to judge her, I'm just saying that I wouldn't hire her or even let her babysit my kids. I guess that's the question: If you could hire someone just like yourself, would you? Young people have trouble having empathy for faceless corporations, but you may want to dig up some of the research about how their prefrontal lobes aren't done developing yet to share with her.
I have to say I would be tempted to lie about how many people I have in a hotel room with me. But then, I have nothing against sleeping in a Wal Mart Parking lot. Also, I recently heard a sermon in which a man had done this and then a couple months later his son lied about his age to get a discount on a movie. Ouch! I'm sure I'm still doing this.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
quote:"I steal, Scant, but that's not what I am."
"What are you, then?"
"A man is the greatest, boldest thing he dares to do."
I am not a thief. I am a father.
--Pop
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
My wife and I usually share a drink, regardless of whether there are free refills or not. We generally don't need to refill the drink, but if we do, and there's a charge, it wouldn't even occur to me not to pay it.
I've gotten more honest as I've gotten older though. I can remember, in Jr. High, my friends and I didn't hesitate to share a plate, if we could get away with it, when we went to a place where they had a buffet.
In high school and college I worked at a fast food place, and while we were officially supposed to pay for food if we had any, no one ever did unless the owner happened to be in the building. We also traded food with other restaurants frequently, and thought nothing of it. Furthermore, I routinely gave customers large orders of fries when they ordered small, simply because I could open the large fry box and dump the fries into it one-handed, while doing something else with my other hand, but had to use both hands to put the fries into the small fry sack.
I think that the food seemed like an infinite and valueless thing to those of us that worked with it (on a subconscious level, that it; of course we were aware that it was purchased, and that it was finite). It felt to us like the food was ours, so we didn't have a problem trading it for food we wanted.
I wouldn't have that attitude if I were in the same environment now, but at the time it seemed natural.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
msquared, have you encountered any places with the self-serve fountains that don't allow free refills?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
dkw, I have.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Where rivka? I've never been in a fast food place where the self-serve drinks weren't free refills.
I would consider sharing a cup in that case to be stealing, but I've done my share. I worked at Babbages in college. We were encouraged to take the software home for a few days and try it out so we could sound reasonable intelligent if someone had a question. Of course, we were supposed to delete if when we were done. A few of my friends had a steady supply of games while I worked there. Looking back on it now, it's not something I'm proud of.
Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
dkw,
No I don't know of any, but I would guess that there are some out there. That is why I never super size the order. They are going to charge me 20 cents more or something just for a bigger cup? I don't think so.
msquared
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
A couple of the kosher pizza shops in my area have self-serve soda fountains that say "No refills." Now, they're near the the counter, so if you did refill, you'd have to have the nerve to do it right under their nose. But when it's busy, I'm sure that one could do so without being noticed.
Oh, and in at least one of these places, you take your own cans or bottles of soda, juice, etc. from a cooler.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
I fail to see how it is stealing to only order one drink if they have free refills, although it is certainly inconvenient. You pay for the cup, not the beverage, although if the store did not have free refills then yes it is.
My grandfather sometimes orders water and gets Sprite. That too is stealing.
Posted by Happy Camper (Member # 5076) on :
Subway used to charge for refills, but they've gotten away from that in recent years. I've seen a few other places that charge for refills, but they're not common.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
In Lawrence, Kansas there is a pizza place called Papa Keno's that charges 25 cents for refills from their self serve fountain drink machine. Another place in the same town, Yello Sub, allows one free refill, and then charges 35 cents for any refills after the first. Again, it's a self serve fountain.
[ October 24, 2003, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
I don't think that I am a thief. When I see self-service soda fountains, I have refills, and I don't ask if they are free. I just assume. I would say, though, that free refills are the norm in this situation, and so if a restaurant doesn't want you to refill without paying, it is their responsibilty to post a sign or something. I think it is stealing for two people to get one cup in this situation. I think one should, at the very least, ask if that is acceptable (since, after all, it wouldn't be stealing at a restaurant that did not give free refills).
The quid pro quo might not be stealing. Many restaurants have an official policy of cutting breaks to each others' employees, because these people will often turn around and send business to your establishment. This is common in restaurants, bars, and clubs, and it is endorsed and approved by the ownership in many cases.
When I worked in a pizzeria, we were not expected to pay for our own food if we prepared it ourselves during work time (and, I suppose, if it was not a gargantuan quantity). I would frequently make myself a small pizza ten minutes or so before I got off and take it home. I also frequently ate buffet leftovers out of sight of the customers. If I came in on my night off, I was expected to pay, but I did receive a disount.
It is typical for employees to get perks when they shop with their own companies.
I too have found myself becoming more scrupulous as I get older. I was much more likely to steal in this way when I was twenty. I like to think I am being more scrupulous and that I am more mature now, but who's to say that it's not simply a function of the fact that I have more money now, and so don't feel the need to take stuff?
Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
danzig,
If the place offers free refills it is not stealing.
What is stealing is ordering one drink and then having several people drink from the same cup, say with different straws.
msquared
Posted by zaxon75 (Member # 5840) on :
I remember friends in college who would take a plastic baggie in to an all-you-can-eat buffet. When they were done, they would take some with them.
If that had been a regular meal, it would just be taking a doggy bag. But since they always seemed to purposely get more than they planned to eat, I thought it was dishonest.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Actually, I'm a monk.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Dude, are you really going to continue using that name?
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
Is there actually a sign or something saying that you're not allowed to share cups? What are you buying when you pay for the drink, and where is it stated?
Posted by zaxon75 (Member # 5840) on :
You should feel flattered.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
I suppose that's true. Plus if I say something bad I can always blame it on you.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
msquared, the way I see it free refills means you can have as much as you want. I have never seen a fast food place specifically state that customers may not share cups, so I have no moral qualms. However, as I cannot abide ice in any drink, I usually have to get my own anyway. Also I make enough money to not need to pinch pennies quite that much. Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
It really irks me when I work somewhere and my friends come in to "see me" and want something free or a discount. And it really irks them when I won't give it to them Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
An interesting point is that if you go to an all-you-can-eat buffet, there are usually signs up specifically saying that you can't share a plate. Does that imply that fast food places need to specify that?
To my mind, it's one of those things that doesn't need to be stated.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Some people are cheap. Some people like to fight the system. Some people are oblivious.
So in other words, yes. Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
Of course they need to say that! If not, it may be a bit distasteful to some, but it isn't stealing: it's taking legitimate and legal advantage of the establishment's lack of prudence.
For the record, I don't do that, but only because I dislike sharing drinks with most people.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Christy and I almost ALWAYS share a single small drink with free refills. Frankly, speaking as a former fast food manager of a place that had free refills, the profit margin on drinks is so high that it's highly unlikely any one family, refilling as often as they want, could possibly result in a net loss; restaurants swallow this cost because the majority of their demographic does NOT share drinks. (Of course, if this trend ever reversed, they'd probably go back to the old way -- but as it is, even people who really abuse the free refill system wind up helping the restaurant profit most of the time.)
Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
Self-serve soda fountains are really just buffet style drinking.
Those who pay can have as much as they want.
(unless otherwise stated at the restaurant)
OTOH, I can certainly understand not feeling guilty about sharing a drink with someone.
I mean, it's a matter of degree, too. If my date and I decide to split a drink and we only refill once, then I don't see how we've stolen anything. If we refilled five or six times (or more, if I dated groups ) then I think it's safe to say that we've abused the buffet style drinking system.
Of course, none of this matters to me because I only drink water in restaurants anyway. Not only do I not drink caffeine of any kind, I feel that purchasing a soda for $1.50, refills or no, is an act of the "faceless corporation" stealing from ME.
I break movie theater rules often by sneaking in my own snack materials for the same reasons.
Posted by John Van Pelt (Member # 5767) on :
It begins to sound as if we've identified the nature of that very real gray area - all you absolutists, listen up - where there is a distinction between 'dishonesty' and 'breaking the rules.'
I mean, we all know not to take something that isn't ours. Even something they left behind by accident - they might be back for it - someone else might take it in the meantime - but... it ain't mine. No takee.
But if it's the faceless corporation, which by pricing policy, implication, practice, or any other way, simply tries to compel conformance to a pattern of rules (for its own, sometimes excessive, benefit) then violations (for some) are lifted out of the realm of ethics and into something like civil disobedience - or at the very least, simply taking whatever puny individual advantage in revenge that one can.
quote: As for the restaurant case, speaking from experience I can tell you that employers actually factor in those sorts of things when they pay wages.
This doesn't, of course, justify shoplifting - which retailers have had to figure into their business model, too.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
I think there's a letter-of-the-law/spirit-of-the-law issue at play. When I was a kid I would share them, because nobody told me I couldn't. Now I wouldn't, because I don't believe it's the intent of the establishment. I do think they would and should lose if they were stupid enough to prosecute someone for sharing a soft drink, if they didn't have it posted. I also think they'd be within their rights to tell a person to stop because it wasn't allowed, but not to tell them to leave without first giving the warning. And if when told to stop the person/people demanded a refund, the establishment should give it.
Besides -- Mama usually prefers water, and who needs to share that?
--Pop
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Soft drinks are a total rip off anyway. Water, sugar, flavouring, colouring and some other unideintified chemicals, all for some ridiculous price. I say that "stealing" the extra soft drink doesn't do anyone any harm at all.
Morally, it is wrong, but when balanced with how much you pay, it becomes right. However, I'm not sure I would do it myself (I never have), so my theory is discounted.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
In the case of the restaurant where I worked, the whole "faceless corporation" thing didn't really come into play. It was a chain restaurant, but our store was independently owned by someone who was actively involved with the business.
I've been thinking more about the rules that governed people's food taking behavior there. The behavior was pretty uniform; everybody from the managers on down approached it the same way. When we weren't on shift, we expected to pay for our food. We generally didn't give free food to our friends (unless it was old food we took home at the end of the night, which would have been thrown out anyway). We didn't usually eat specialty, seasonal items, such as pies (which we only had in the Fall) without paying for them. When on shift, we didn't think twice about making ourselves a free sandwich. We knew that this was against the rules, although most people were fairly vocal about the fact that they thought that that was ridiculous. The owner knew that we took free sandwiches, and while he was officially against it, he didn't really seem to care. Nonetheless, when he was there we obeyed the forms and paid for what we ate while on the clock. I think the fact that we were allowed to eat as many fries, and drink as much pop as we wanted while on shift encouraged out thinking that there was nothing wrong with having a free sandwich too.
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
Actually, that brings up a second question for me. Do you water drinkers ever feel like the restaurant is watching as you fill up your soft drink? I know a lot of restaurants have had problems with people ordering water and then going to the self-serve and filling their cup with their choice of drink. This, I think, is much more dishonest than sharing a drink.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I agree Christy. I did this accidentally once, just filling up with pop out of habit, and poured it out and got water when I realized my mistake. Silly, maybe, since the restaurant was out the .01 cents the pop cost them anyway, but I wouldn't have felt right drinking it.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Hey, the sign says free refills. No other qualifiers.
Hell, at $1.79 a pop, you're paying for the cup and about three gallons of soda.
I say, get what you pay for. Even if you have to run outside and dump some in the parking lot.
I always order water. I love the stuff. But I always put a splash or two of lemonade in it. That, I believe, is stealing...but I never lose any sleep from taking a few cents worth of lemonade a month.
Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
Heh. Christy, I hate it when you order water at a restaurant and they give you a really small clear plastic cup. It's like they just expect me to steal because I got water.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
It's not personal--I bet the stealing has gone down since they switched to those.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I just wish they'd give you a big, clear cup.
Do they think people who drink water drink less than other people?
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Good point.
Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
Yeah, that's kinda my gripe with it, too.
OTOH, I suppose that since most places give water for free, they really are taking a loss on it; they didn't get to sell you a beverage, and they have to cover the cost of your cup and your water, too. Poor faceless corporations.
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
Yes, cry for the poor faceless corporations. Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I can never bring myself to order soda at a fast food place, and I can seldomly justify ordering fries.
I can get five pounds of fries at Wal-Mart for a dollar. Imagine how cheap they can get them...and then sell to you for ~$5 a pound.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I'm sure they use water sales as a tax write-off. Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
actually, the only thing like this that i really care about is the people who will alway order water with lemon, (only when its free, those of us that get iced tea are suppose to donate the lemon, if its not) when you go out to eat. They then use the sugar packets on the table to make their own lemonade. I hate it. Just don't do it. Hell ask, i'll buy you the lemonade.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
When I worked at Wendy's, we actually did charge 15 or 20 cents for a cup of water. I suppose this was intended to actually cover the cup, but who knows? We did not have a self-serve machine, and refills were 37 cents after tax.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
HollowEarth- maybe they only want a slight hint of lemon. Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
HE: how much lemon are these people taking?
o_O
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
Sheesh, the feeling that I am not a thief is worth way way more than any pennies saved on stealing soft drinks. I am not a thief. I don't steal office supplies from the office. In fact, I bring so many of my own pens and pencils and sticky notes and things that I'm sure they end up with some of mine. I always have lots of that sort of thing around cause they're very popular stocking presents in my family. I don't use diskettes from work. I buy my own, they cost almost nothing! I don't take the hotel's note paper, or the sugar packets from the restaurant home to use. I don't take home food in a doggie bag from an all you can eat buffet. It says all you can eat, not all you can eat and carry!
A person I knew once would encourage her children to eat grapes and stuff in the produce department of the grocery store. I guess she thought that made them free.
I would be ashamed and humiliated to have to think of myself as a thief. The amount people charge for things is totally irrelevant to this. That's what a free market economy means. Charge whatever you like and if people think it's too expensive they won't buy it. It does NOT mean steal anything that has too high a price tag! Just hearing people talk about how much profit is made or how much someone charges for things (like CDs or cokes) gives me the creeps! If you think they charge too much then don't buy it! For heaven's sake! Or find another (legal) source who charges less! Why do people think they have a right to buy anything from someone at some price they think is good? If it's so easy to make money doing that then go into that business yourself, how about?
And if I were ever going to be a thief, I would most certainly not be a PETTY thief! How could anyone hold their heads up if they were? That is just so horribly shameful! If I were going to decide to be a thief I'd at least make it worth my while. Millions or hundreds of millions at the very least! For heaven's sake! <laughs>
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
It really depends. The one girl i'm thinking about in particular will use as many lemons as she can get. She doesn't empty the little bin of them if there is one or anything, but 3-4 if she can get them. I've given up on saying anything. Everybody else seems to think its funny that she does this.
Edit: Everywhere i have worked that had fountain machines gave the staff as much pop as we could drink. Both places though limited you to one cup a day.
[ October 24, 2003, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: HollowEarth ]
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
I take home unopened soap packets from my hotel rooms. Is this stealing? I don't think so, because I feel like I have paid for them.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
I think that as far as the soap and shampoo from hotels, you do.
That brings to mind another question. My university paper recently had an article about the theft of various products from our campus dining services. One such item was trays, which are obviously reused and owned by the university. However, they also commented on students "stealing" plastic silverware - how is that for an oxymoron - as well as ketchup packets. You are intended to take as many of these as you need per meal. So is it stealing to take more than one for use in your dorm or apartment or house?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I also sneak candy into movie theatres. And I only go to dollar movies, so the candy really would be their only income. I mean, shifting theatres actually harms them less than me sneaking in candy. Maybe. I don't know. On the matter of soda sharing, it's obvious none of you have 3 year olds. Can you spell backwash? Also, I think sodas are poison. Though if I were diabetic or on a special diet, I wouldn't feel bad about sneaking snacks into a theater. I am totally capable of enjoying a movie without snacks as well. So I blame it all on my husband. Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
I like popcorn at movies, but the salt makes me thirsty. And if I have anything to drink, then usually I will have to pee. So usually I do not bother with sneaking anything into movies, although occasionally I will have a soda if it is a short movie.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
quote:On the matter of soda sharing, it's obvious none of you have 3 year olds.
I share drinks with my two young kids all the time, and I have since long before they were three. I don't do it at fast food joints, because I don't mind paying for us each to get a cup, but if I buy some absurdly overpriced water from the Stop-N-Rob, I certainly don't intend to buy three bottles. We all share one, and the backwash has never bothered me. Cor, on the other hand, is bothered by it. I always just figured she was weird.
-o-
Sneaking soda or food into a movie theater or stadium or amusement park is not stealing, and as far as I'm concerned it's not wrong. I reject their right to tell me I can't bring candy in. That said, I typically don't, but only because they have a better (or rather, different) selection of candy than the Stop-N-Rob does, even if it is overpriced.
Posted by John Van Pelt (Member # 5767) on :
quote: think there's a letter-of-the-law/spirit-of-the-law issue at play.
Pop, I think you're right, insofar as the run of responses here. But that paradigm doesn't really address the, shall we say, Mosaic view of thievery, as an absolute law.
I think Ana Kata's response springs very much from that side of things. If we even so much as feel as if we have 'gotten away with' something (however we justify it), do we at some level make ourselves petty thieves?
I do feel that these issues are important to confront. Important both for the fabric of society (think of how much more you may see drivers run red lights these days! - at least here in Boston) - and for our relationship with our our own selves (and that's without dragging religion into it, too much).
I, like Ana, prefer to be able to stand upright and pure. It's not a matter of pride - it's a matter of not entering onto a slippery slope. That is not to say that I have not done all these things, and worse. But I continue to grow into my own clear sense of principle.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
To those who feel that taking advantage of free refills is stealing:
Say you go to a yard sale and find an object being sold for much less than it's worth. Do you not buy it? If not, why? If you do, does it put you on the slippery slope? Does the seller not also have an obligation to be aware?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Frisco, the difference is that the definition of a yard sale IS "sale to get rid of things at rock-bottom prices."
Now, if you mean something that they don't realize is a priceless antique, but I do -- then yes, I would feel that I had an obligation to tell them. And I like to think that I would actually do so. Not that it's likely to come up. I wouldn't know a priceless antique if it walked up and bit me. Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Should restaurants be required to tell you that they've already factored the cost of refills into your meal and raised prices accordingly, whether or not you take advantage of the bottomless drink?
rivka, the definition of fast food is "get them into the store with ads, then take advantage of the ever-growing caffeine and junk food addiction in order to sell a product at ridiculous markups". Sure, it's a free market...but if they have that right, I think I have the right to take advantage of the fact that they're selling me an essentially unlimited amount of soda for the low, low price of $1.79. *grin*
[ October 24, 2003, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: Frisco ]
Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
If it's a self serve soda fountan, then you're supposed to get free refils. If it's behind the counter, then ask, it's probably still free.
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
I get free refills, though. I just don't get them for more people than me. One cup per customer, unlimited refills per cup, I mean. If they don't post a sign and drinks are self-serve, then I do assume the refills are free. I never thought to ask.
Traffic signs are not moral decisions for me, though. I mean I feel fine about running a light when the vehicle loop detector is bad and they make you wait forever when no cars are coming. Obviously I look very carefully first. I am bad about speeding, too, though I go slow if there's any chance of children or animals around or workers. I try to keep it slow enough that I won't get a ticket, as well. I happened to get 3 within a short period of time once when I was driving an awful lot for work and it made me afraid I might lose my license. Imagine being unable to drive! That would be bad! Ever since then I did get in the habit of being careful to speed only in a cautious fashion. Stop signs when nobody is there are really slow down and yield signs to me. The traffic is nuts in my town, though. I don't know whether this is any excuse. Saudade and Andrei cower in the backseat when I drive them around. <laughs>
Here's another thing I think is a sort of fluid dynamics problem and not a moral problem. On the highway when the signs say "Left Lane Closed 2 miles" I stay in the left lane until the last possible moment, then move over. This is by far the fastest strategy, especially if traffic is very backed up. It's legal and it's available to any driver who wants to take advantage of it. Many people get over immediately, though, and act like you're being a jerk if you don't too. Why? Traffic moves faster in two lanes merging to one than in one lane only. Why not take advantage of all the road that the work crew has left available to us?
[ October 24, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
I used to do that too, AK, but I stopped because it drives Cor crazy. But it infuriates me to instead wait behind the sheep who let other people in. My feeling is that people who've been waiting longer ought to end up in front, but since people are going to let in johnny-come-latelies from the merging lane anyway, then they might as well let me in. I'd rather be a hammer than a nail.
But I don't think this is at all the same kind of moral issue.
Also, while I am a safe driver, I am somewhat on the aggressive side of safe--so don't get me started on driving habits! (Although it doesn't sound like I can hold a candle to you!)
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I don't let you weasels in. Posted by Dreamwalker (Member # 4189) on :
Another area people seem to have trouble deciding whether it's theft or not is stealing time from your employer. If my boss is paying me then I'm paid me to work not come on hatrack, or chat on the phone, or have visitors etc. I'm always amazed at how many people visit me at work and get grumpy when I don't want to stand around chatting to them. Why doesn't it occur to them I'm not there because it's convienant for them?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I don't let people in, either, if I see that they had a chance to get in the lane ahead of time. Presuming upon people's politeness for your personal gain is a little...I don't know the right word to use. Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
mack--no, but the guy in front of you will!
I personally don't have a dilemma with the work thing. I am not paid by the hour, I am paid to complete certain tasks, which I complete. I spend time on Hatrack before the start of the day, during lunch, and after school, mostly. On (frequent) occasions, I also steal a few minutes during the six minutes of passing time (my short snarky posts) and during my planning period. But the fact is that I put in far, far more than forty hours a week in legitimate work, so I use Hatrack sometimes, especially when I am working at night as I am right now, to pace myself. Grade 10 quizzes, Hatrack, write lesson plans, Hatrack, etc. I almost never post when I have students in the room, because I virtually never assign seatwork. So I feel like my employers are getting what they paid for (and more!) from me.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I yell at that guy. Using a LOT of obscenities.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
I don't see it as politeness. It certainly isn't polite to the people behind them.
-o-
It's unfair that these people will let in drivers who have not been waiting as long, but I didn't create the unfairness. Taking from me the "politeness" of these drivers just to erase some perceived injustice . . . it seems . . . I dunno. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I'm not entirely clear on how to parse what you just said. Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I'm the driver that would get in front of mack, anyway.
They don't have to "let" me in, they just have to not want to hit my side door. Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
I wouldn't. I actually appreciate a certain amount of assertiveness in other drivers. If somebody doesn't want to let me in, I won't generally force my way in. The only exception to this is if I have a legitimate reason to be merging where I am, like I just came on an on-ramp, and somebody decides to be a jerk.
And I am psychotic enough to keep you from muscling in in front of me if I decide you are a jerk, even at the risk of getting hit. I suspect mack would be too. You don't want to mess with us crazy people when we're behind the wheel!
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I drive a Kia. Other people have more to lose. Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
See, I wish there were more people like mack and Iccy on the road. I enjoy that sort of challenge.
And mack...maybe you forgot to read the warning sticker on your engine. "Violently explodes upon impact". Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Like I told my therapist I'd say if I was ever attacked in any way, "Go ahead and mess with me you ******, I've been suicidal for months."
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Storm,
I was trying to be funny by couching my retort in rhetoric similar to that used within the affirmative action threads.
In retrospect, I can see that it wasn't that funny.
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
To me cars on the highway are like water in a pipe. You go where there is the lowest pressure. It's not a choice, you just obey the laws of fluid dynamics.
Posted by Mormo (Member # 5799) on :
No, I am not a thief. ak, I thought I was the only who thought about traffic in terms of fluid dynamics and waves! On I-285 in Atlanta during morning rush hour there is a "standing wave" or node at several places, where the cars back up in the same way every day, similar to what's known as "hydralic damming." By adroit lane changes I avoided a good part of the traffic after I figured out the pattern. Alas, afternoon rush hour seemed more unpredictable.
Also, groups of cars resemble waves in their patterns of starting and stopping, in freeway traffic as well as at traffic lights.
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
As implied above, it is not thievery. If, in some case, it is wrong, it falls under abuse of the statute, not thievery. and to answer the question "Is "theft" more acceptable if it's only for $1.49?" Well, no, wrong is wrong, but to compare somebody who routinely drives 7mph over the speed limit because they're always in a hurry to a murderer is ludicrous, I'm sure you'll agree. And, since we live in a country where we more or less believe in taking care of the hungry and the poor, I don't think it at all wrong for us college kids to press the rules a bit and bum food. It'd be a little childish if say, 5 people came in a drunk from the same cup- but nothing more, I think.
Now if I go in with a five gallon bucket and fill up on soda pop- clearly violating the unwritten statute of trust, then yes, it's out and out robbery.
It's basically the case of the white lie. A victimless lie is not a lie, and a victimless crime is not a crime. The restauraunt said all you can drink, so they should stand by it to a degree. More importantly, they can afford it(see above remark about taking care of the hungry and poor). Now if a well-enough-fed college kid sees an abandoned Mcdonald's meal on a park bench, grabs it with four fingers as a homeless guy is grabbing it with two, and the homeless guy jerks it away from him, and the college kid beats the cr*p out of him and takes it - THEN THAT'S STEALING Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
How can an unwritten law be "out and out robbery"?
Posted by Mormo (Member # 5799) on :
Some places do have signs spelling out one cup per customer, and no soda in water cups.
But even without the sign, using a 5 gallon bucket (if anyone actually had the cajones to try it) to get soda is an obvious attempt to get more than you paid for. As such it is morally theft, if perhaps not legally theft. Would it be ok to use the same bucket at an all-you-can-eat place, Frisco?
Sharing a cup falls more into a grey area, IMHO.
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
quote: How can an unwritten law be "out and out robbery"?
Uh, go figure. If the government is anarchy, and there are no laws, I beg to differ with you if you think you can take my money, against my will, for a non-legitimate purpose, and not be doing robbery.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
How do people feel about this: When my friends and I got to a movie we routinely pool our money in order to get a large drink (two if we can't decide what we want) and a medium sized popcorn. The popcorn is refillable, and we generally go though 2 or 3 bags in the course of the movie. Is this stealing? Keep in mind that if we didn't pool our money and do this we wouldn't get anything, because none of us alone has enough money to buy even one bag of popcorn. Also, if you bought the popcorn yourself, and then one of your friends asked for a handful, you'd give it to them, wouldn't you? You wouldn't say, "No, I can't do that, that woudl be stealing from the theater." Similarly, if you went to a fast food place, and one of you only had enough money for a sandwich, but was really thirsty, you can't tell me you wouldn't give them a drink from yours because it would be stealing. Personally, I think that that would be much worse.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Okay: sharing your small soda a number of times. Okay: speeding within reasonable limits. Okay: bid-sniping on eBay. Okay: buying an item on considerable discount, or stacking rebates.
Less okay: sneaking food into a theater. Less okay: disobeying a stoplight because it seems mis-timed. Less okay: purchasing a obviously mis-identified and extremely valuable object from an estate sale or the like. Less okay: using free lemons to make lemonade. Less okay: in restaurants (like Arby's) that give free pickles, taking several hundred pickles and having them for lunch.
Even less okay: continuing to drive in the left lane when you know it's going to close, thereby becoming one of those people who force traffic to stop when they desperately attempt to merge at the end of the lane -- thus slowing down all the people who courteously moved over, but gaining a few extra minutes of efficiency for yourself at their cost. Even less okay: taking toilet paper and/or condiment packets from restaurants to use in your home.
[ October 25, 2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
If you ever find yourself saying "they can afford it", about the person on the other side of the transaction, then this is a big red flag. This is a huge no no. It's not other people's wallets with which you are allowed to be generous, but only your own. When you think to yourself, "I can afford it", this is the right way.
It's just like, "what are friends for?". <laughs> It's not something you say to your friends to explain to them why they should do more for you, drive you everywhere and buy you food. It's what you say when your friends are being effusively grateful for the kindnesses and gifts of friendship that you bestow upon them.
About the lane closure problem, I'm speaking of the times when the traffic is at a near standstill, and there is a long line of cars in the right lane, say, and the left lane is open because everyone has moved out of that lane because it's about to close. It's actually faster for everyone involved if people merge together right at the end rather than two miles back.
The reason the traffic slows and stops is that a restriction creates a higher pressure. The longer distance that restriction is in effect, the higher the pressure generated and the more tendency there is for cars to jam up. So if we add the two miles between the sign and the actual traffic barrels to the length of that restriction, we are causing MORE traffic jam up and not less. Traffic will be slowed the least if the restriction is made as short as possible. So people should stay in both lanes until very near the end, then merge together.
What is the sense of not taking advantage of all the tarmac you are given? The interstate downtown has three or four lanes and at the edge of town it has only two. Should we all avoid the other two lanes in town just because some miles down the road those lanes will end? Of course not, that would make traffic much slower. We use all the pavement we are given while we have it, then make do with less when we must.
[ October 25, 2003, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Less okay: sneaking food into a theater.
I don't know about other states, but in Minnesota it is illegal for the theater to forbid people bringing in food if they sell comparable food. The theaters won't tell you this, but my sister worked at one in high school and the employees were told that they actually couldn't stop people from bringing their own food.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"When you think to yourself, 'I can afford it,' this is the right way."
There's a difference between honesty, generosity, and masochism, Anne Kate. If a business has made the decision to permit free refills, rest assured that they continue to implement this decision because -- even with people sharing those refills -- it makes good business sense.
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
I was just pointing out that whenever you say to yourself, "they can afford it", you are making a judgement call in the direction of generosity with somebody else's money. Be generous, if you want, with your own money. This is generosity. Being generous to yourself with someone else's money is not called generosity. It's called something else.
[ October 25, 2003, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I was mentioning this thread to my husband last night, and he said sneaking food in is okay because they overcharge for theirs and you're not actually taking anything, but sharing soda is not okay because no matter how high the profit margin it still costs something.
In my mind they are the same because in both cases you are depriving them the right to overcharge you. But I guess with the soda, you are doing it using their materials whereas with movie snacks you are using your own. I guess I'll avoid doing either.
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