I remember Doctor Who, specifically those seasons in which Tom Baker was playing The Doctor, as being incredibly good. I remember them being funny, well written, and gripping, with the acting being as good as anything else on TV. The special effects were hopelessly cheesy, but that was part of the appeal.
Over the weekend I came across some Doctor Who episodes at my local library. Strangely, none of them featured Tom Baker as The Doctor--I had to choose from William Hartnell, Jon Pertwee, and Peter Davidson. I picked The Daemon, which I haven't seen since about 1982, but which I remembered being pretty good.
It wasn't.
In fact, I'd be willing to say that it was horribly bad. Badly written--the dialogue was unconvincing, and the science in it was horribly wrong. Badly acted--in general I was startled by how poorly acted Jo's character was, as well as the UNIT flunkies that surrounded the doctor during his exile on Earth during the Pertwee years. The stage fighting alone was so bad as to be intertaining. Badly filmed--shots were often murky. Badly mixed--often the music was loud enough that it wasn't possible to hear the dialog over it. Badly edited--frequently various "laws" of editing were violated, making it seem that there were causal relationships between actions that weren't related.
Over all, it was just horrible.
Is The Daemon representative of Dr. Who as a whole, or did I just happen to rent a really bad episode?
I would really, really like to be told that this episode is an anomaly. I remember Dr. Who as being wonderful, and I'd really like to see that affirmed.
So, Hatrack, reassure me (or dash my hopes).
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
Who wrote the script? There are some writers who are better and some who are, well, not so better that others.
And I think that part of the wonder of the Doctor is that each actor really plays a different Doctor. I'm a huge fan of Peter Davidson's run, though most people think of Tom Baker as the standard for the Doctor. I would suggest you try one of his early episodes, if they have them. Before that irritation twit Perry joins him.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Dr. Who was generally pretty uneven... the Tom Baker years were probably the most consistent for quality (esp. seasons 3-4 -- when Sarah Jane Smith was finishing up and Leela joined up). Usually, in a season of 6 stories, 2 would be great, 2 would be good, 2 would be bad...
The Pertwee years had pretty low budgets, and a lot of stories were padded out to 5, 6, or 7 episodes; the better ones usually only had 4 episodes.
Somewhere there's probably an Internet list of all time favorites... some of mine =
Tom Baker: Genesis of the Daleks Terror of the Zygons The Hand of Fear The Deadly Assassin The Face of Evil The Robots of Death The Invisible Enemy The Image of the Fendahl (?) The Invasion of Time The Pirate Planet The Androids of Tara City of Death Full Circle Warrior's Gate The Keeper of Traken Logopolis
Peter Davison: Castrovalva Earthshock The Five Doctors [something noun] of the Daleks Cazes of Androzani
Colin Baker: [something noun] of the Daleks
Sylvester McCoy: [something noun] of the Daleks Nemesis a couple other ones I forget
yow, amazing how much of this I've still got in my head (I was a big fan when I was a teen and saw everything I could; if I was watching them as an adult I'd be a lot more choosy)
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Actually, I've found that Doctor Who plays better in my memory than through my older eyes. What once was cool, now seems cheesy. I hate to say it about something I once thought was the greatest in sci fi television, but nowadays, it just seems, sort of, amateurish.
Perhaps I'm just jaded.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Celia, it looks like it was written by by Robert Sloman and Barry Letts, using the pseudonym Guy Leopold. Do you know anything about them? Unfortunately, an article about the show referrs to this one as "...one of the finest serials of its era". If that's one of the "finest serieals of its era, I'd hate to have to watch one of the worst.
Interesting that you liked Peter Davidson so much; I always saw him as a fairly flat Doctor. What did you like about his performance? It's been so long since I've seen his Doctor that I can't give you an adult's perspective on it; 1983 Noemon and 2003 Noemon don't always see eye to eye on this sort of thing, happily.
My favorite Dr. Who episodes are:
The Masque of Mandragora The Face of Evil The Talons of Weng-Chiang The Pirate Planet The City of Death (this was probably my single favorite episode. It was written, in part, by Douglas Adams, and John Cleese made an appearance as an art critic) State of Decay
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Okay. As long as you've resolved the question.
Carry on.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Eh? Resolved the question as to whether Dr. Who is any good or not? I'm still up in the air about that. I'm hoping for more feedback from celia, honestly.
Also, I've found that a different branch of my county's library system has a copy of The City of Death, so I'm going to get it through intra-system loan and watch it. If it's terrible, I'm going to strongly lean toward feeling disillusioned about Dr. Who in general.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Don't discount camp value! Do me a favor, have a drink or two before watching them. And don't judge on the special effects! BBC is about acting, and if you're lucky you will get a decent script too!
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Oh, believe me, when it comes to Dr. Who, the cheesier the special effects are, the better. That's one of the things that I feel a little leery about with the new series they're proposing. I'm sure it will have normal, Star Trek level special effects, and I'm not sure I like that.
I'll tell you what--if I don't like The City of Death, I'll rent one more and get good and tipsy before I watch it.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
All I ask is that you watch it while ripped.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
the celia of 83 is most certainly not the celia of 2003 either.
i think davidson is flat compaired to baker. he was a much more understated character. he had a different kind of distance that the previous regeneration. baker was very charismatic and put on a good show. davidson was quiet and thoughtful, but you never doubted that he cared deeply about all of his companions.
i'm also madly in love with whatever the group of episodes with turlough is called. i know that a lot of the acting is corny, but the concept was intriguing enough to overlook that. at least for me. the doctor knew the whole time that turlough was in league with the enemy, but had faith in him to make the right decisions when it mattered. it's that kind of interesting, but subtle interplay that exist in davidson's earlier episodes that make me like his version of the doctor so much.
i like your plan. city of death is an excellent episode. if you do find you don't like it, well, perhaps you've just outgrown whatever you loved it so much. i haven't. if you have, i hope you can still enjoy the memory of enjoying the doctor.
i'm going to look when i get home and see if i have that specific episode (the one you already watched, that is. i know i have city of death.) if it's the one i think it is, yeah, it wasn't that good.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Celia, it looks like my county's library system only has two Peter Davidson episodes--the first one, Castrovalva, and Earthshock. Of those two, which do you think is most representative of Peter Davidson's Doctor?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Oh, beleive me, if 2003 Noemon doesn't like Dr. Who I'll still really treasure the show. It, along with Tolkein, Susan Cooper, Marvel comics, and Greek and Norse mythology are the constituent elements of the mythic landscape of my childhood.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
castrovalva is davidson's first episode. i like that one because of the escher-esque city. i don't think it's a good representative episode as the doctor is pretty out of it. he's suffering from "regeneration sickness" or something.
earthshock has a special place in my heart as the episode where my least favorite compainion bites it. that aside, it's a neat episode even if you liked that kid. i'd recommend it of the two.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Not a big fan of the kid from E-Space, eh?
I was always fairly indifferent toward him.
Have you seen many of the episodes with Hartnall and Troughton? I've seen a couple of Hartnall episodes, but never a Troughton one.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
tee hee, from the discontinuity guide (which i should really put on my christmas list!):
quote:For a certain age group this story is the most memorable example of 70s Doctor Who. However, The Dæmons isn't really very good.
mpt did a marathon of several regeneration episodes, so i've seen the pilot (an unearthly child) with hartnell and the war games with troughton. i know i'd seen others when i was younger and it was still on witf, but i can't remember them.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I have a soft spot for old television shows, especially old science fiction- Doctor Who, Blakes 7 and the old Star Trek. Excellent. Their charm is incredible- nothing like that nowadays. At least nothing I know compares.
Yes, Doctor Who is good.
EDIT: Blakes 7 is better though.
[ October 27, 2003, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
The Tom Baker episodes are the only ones I think of as really good. I loved those, and there were always new subtle jokes to catch when watching them over and over. I'm particularly fond of the six segments to the key to time, though Leela was my favorite sidekick, followed by the first Romana. There was at least one Tom Baker episode that was dreadful, though.
The others range from decent to horrendous. I sort of liked Ace and Sylvester what's his name. The two immediately after Tom Baker were both terrible, I thought.
The writing was just great during the Tom Baker era. There were so many clever things tossed in offhand-like. I agree that the cheesiness of the special effects made them better. I think when they got more polished later on it really took away from the whole Dr. Who mystique.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I haven't seen anything after Peter Davidson (the Doctor that followed Tom Baker), so I didn't know that their special effects had improved.
Which Tom Baker episode are you thinking of that was terrible, just out of curiosity?
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
quote: Blakes 7 is better though.
That was an awfully good series.
So was Star Cops.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Never saw Blake 7. What was the premise?
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
i am also unfamiliar with this blake 7.
aka, clearly you are an elitist snob.
ok, i just can't understand not liking any davidson episodes. the production wasn't that much better. heck, i think tom baker got the best sets and on location stuff (nobody else went to paris). did you at least like the 5 doctors? can you explain the checkerboard puzzle to me?
i couldn't stand the guy after him (colin baker?), but that was because everything was so melodromatic and convoluted and overburdened with the desire to remain consistant rather than tell an interesting story.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
****Spoilers*****
Blake 7 was a great series, that had the very worst possible ending of any series ever.
I wanted to reach into my tv, slap the actors, hunt down the writers, shoot them and stuff their rotting corpses down the throats of whatever producer agreed to it.
After years of a story Arc and character development...they die.
It is a pointless, senseless death at the hands of the good guy.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Yeah. The end of Blake's 7 really bit. The way I understood it was they were cancelled, knew about it, and tried to make an ending. Badly.
But up to that it was pretty cool. Contemporary with Tom Baker's Dr. Who.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Blake 7 and Dr. Who of that period, also had another weakness.
Strong Women.
They would introduce a female character (Ayla, Romano,etc) who promised to be strong and powerful,(in Blake 7 there were 2 or 3 fighters from a long line of female fighters.)
By the fifth episode this strong woman spent a lot of time screaming for rescue.
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
The one dreadful episode with Tom Baker that I remember was something about the Pleasure Hive or something, I remember disembodied limbs floating around. I don't know what happened that week but that particular show really sucked in the middle of a run of pretty good ones, as I recall.
I detested every Davidson episode I ever saw, including the five Doctors. He was just a very weak Doctor. He had no authority or coolness about him at all. He had none of the REAL Doctor's affinity for technology, and no nifty terminology. I don't remember the checkerboard puzzle, sorry.
The Colin dude who came next was the very worst ever, I think. They kept giving him more and more sidekicks to see if they could generate some interest somehow but it never worked. Perry the whiner was my most detested sidekick ever.
[ October 28, 2003, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
yeah, i vaguely recall disliking the pleasure hive.
and i also hate perry. she's the american sidekick. that's the show's interpretation of american girl. uck.
you'll never talk me out of my love of davidson. he was wonderful. maybe he was too human for you Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
In a time lord, that IS a flaw.
No, but he just seemed to have no authenticity. He wasn't brilliant and dazzling and funny as Tom Baker's Doctor was. He was rather ineffectual and lame.
I think the time lords are fooling themselves about the whole regeneration thing, thinking they are still themselves afterwards. I believe rather than being reborn, they are transformed into someone else entirely, and the one who was there before dies. The Romanas were poles apart, for instance, and not one of the other Doctors had the charisma and wit and personality that Tom Baker's Doctor had.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
In Peter Davidson's defense, Tom Baker would be a terrible act to have to follow. Baker's Doctor was so completely unique, forceful, and long running that he completely redefined the character. Pertwee looks pretty pale in comparison to Baker too, although I think he was considered a strong Doctor in his day.
Celia, I forgot to reply to your post yesterday, but I'm very relieved to hear that The Daemons was considered by many to be a bad episode.
I vaguely remember The Pleasure Hive, but I can't remember whether I liked it or not. I remember all the body parts.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
The one you're talking about was The Leisure Hive, not The Pleasure Hive... Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Right, right, the Leisure Hive.
The Pleasure Hive sounds like something they'd have on Risa.
Or in Frank Herbert's Hellstrom's Hive.
[ October 29, 2003, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
Yes! The Leisure Hive. I was mixing it up with Kubla Khan's pleasure dome, I think. Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Oh my g-d - the memories you all bring back - I never even thought that the local library might have Dr. Who - now I'll have to check!
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Oh no!!!!!
All the stupid library has are "viewer's guides to Dr. Who" -
how horrible can that be?
Posted by Jeffrey Getzin (Member # 1972) on :
I'm half-embarassed/half-proud to admit that I have nearly the entire series of Dr. Who on videotape.
I agree that Tom Baker was the best. I also used to hate Colin Baker, but in retrospect, I think he was a terrific actor ... but the scripts he had to work with bit the big one.
Incidentally, I've heard people laud Blake's 7, Star Cops, and the Doctor Who episodes Face of Evil, Robots of Death, and Image of the Fendahl. You know what all those have in common? Chris Boucher.
Boucher was the script editor for, and wrote the better episodes of, Blake's 7. He was the mastermind behind Star Cops, and he authored those three Dr. Who stories.
BTW, I *loved* the ending of Blake's 7. To me, it ended as it begun: absolutely ground-breaking and iconoclastic. Wonderful!
Blake's 7 started very, very strong for the first two seasons. Then in the third and fourth seasons, they had killed off two good characters (Cally and Gant) and brought in two terrible ones (Dayna and Soolin).
Dayna was particularly bad. She was supposed to be this death machine warrior, yet the actress quite obviously could not fight her way out of a soggy, ripped ... and open paper bag. It was just *painful* to watch her fight. Compare her to, say, Paul Darrow who also seemed not to know how to fight yet clearly took the time to learn for the show so that he *looked* good.
Jeff
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Shan, if you haven't already, try searching under "Dr. Who", "Dr Who", and "Doctor Who". In my library's online card catalog I found different videos under each spelling.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
ooohhhh - thanks Noemon - I forgot about idiosyncracies like that . . .
(rushes off to the library website to try again)
edited to follow up with latest search . . .
no video's and the one book has been "withdrawn"
We really need a sob-with-despair graemlin
[ October 30, 2003, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Shan ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Okay. I know there were little spoiler warnings there, but it's too late, I saw the words before I saw the warnings. *muffled sobs*
I have been so careful not to read ahead in Blakes 7, to watch them all in order (because obviously I was/am not old enough to have seen them originally) so I don't know anything, but now...
I am never ever going to watch the last Blakes 7. This is the second series that I vow never to end (The Next Generation of Star Trek is the first).
I'm kind of glad, too, because, now I'll never have to destroy my tv, and I'll never be reduced to a shaking disbelieving huddle.
I'm also glad because other people know about Blakes 7. I thought I was alone.
[ October 30, 2003, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Jeffrey Getzin (Member # 1972) on :
Teshi,
Don't worry: I knew the ending too, before I watched it. It only *slightly* detracted from the series. I was still shaking weeks later after watching the last episode.
Jeff
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Shan, good news--you can probably get all the Dr. Who videos you'd like through inter-library loan. I checked with my library last weekend, and they confirmed that inter-library loan isn't limited to books. It'll be a little work, but it'll be cheaper than having to buy all of them.
By the way, I watched Earthshock (I think that's what it's called--the Peter Davidson vs Cybermen episode). It was much better than The Daemons, so I haven't just outgrown the program or something. I'll be watching The City of Death this coming weekend.
My favorite exchange from Earthshock:
Aedric: The ship's going backward in time! [or something to that effect] Navigator: But that's impossible! Aedric: Not when you have an alien device over-riding your computer!
Write that down folks--if you don't want to go backward in time, never allow an alien device to over-ride your computer.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
yay!
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
And, now that his good name has been cleared yet again, The Doctor climbs back into the TARDIS. We here the grinding of machinery as it dissolves out of shot, on its way to another crisis. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I know celia--I was really happy to discover that I still love the show!
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Interlibrary loan it is . . . .phew - thanks for all the good advice! Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
I have never seen Doctor Who, but the Orbital cover of its theme song is a dandy of a track.
[ November 05, 2003, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Robespierre ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Well, I watched City of Death last night, and it was everything I could possibly have hoped for--just as fantastic as I remembered. My wife was extremely reluctant to watch it, having sat through part of The Daemons with me, and having walked through the room at the worst points in Earthshock, but she loved it too, and said she'd had no idea Dr. Who could be that good. I'm going to be getting more of my favorites through inter-library loan.
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
Noemon, which one was City of Death? Which doctor? Who were the badguys? What was the plot?
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
"The City of Death" was one written by Douglas Adams (he borrowed some stuff from it for "Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency"). It's the 4th Doctor (Tom Baker). It's set in Paris, it involves the Mona Lisa and time travel -- an alien named Jaegeroth who's green and only has one eye...
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Hmm, my library doesn't do InterLibrary Loan requests for audiovisual stuff, waah; ILL really varies from library to library based on policies and budgets...
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
Oh, I love that one! All the character's names were composers, remember? Count Scarlotti and the henchmen were .... <laughs> I forget, but some obscure Italian composers, I think.
And that was the one where the Doctor was reading his first folio edition of Shakespeare and said "take arms against a sea of troubles? That's a mixed metaphor! I TOLD him that was a mixed metaphor!" <laughs>
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
Oh, oh, oh! And the famousest line "Where are we going?" "Do you mean locationally or philosophically?" "Philosophically, of course" "Then we're going to lunch" <smiles exchanged>
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Nostalgia factor Nine Mr. Sulu!
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I can't tell you how relieved I am that it wasn't just nostalgia. My wife, who had previously thought very little of Dr. Who (she had previously seen Dr. Who, along with AD&D, Monty Python, and the like, as a marker of guys she was typically attracted to, but something that she didn't herself get a lot of pleasure from.) is wanting to know what episode I'm going to request next. I'm thinking Face of Evil, but I might go with the first episode in the Key to Time story arc instead.
Oh, and aka--I know! I couldn't believe, watching it, how many of my favorite Dr. Who quotes came from that one show!
Posted by CelestialToymaker (Member # 5912) on :
Doctor Who is the best TV show ever made. (that I've seen, anyway. It's hard to imagine anything better though).
There's no nostalgia factor for me, I first saw it approx. five years ago. Been a fan ever since.
Love the Tom Baker,Davison, and McCoy doctors, enjoy everybody else.
Love the stories, the bubble wrap monsters, cardboard spaceships, dodgy science, cheesy villains, corny multiple doctor stories, and especially the theme music.
By the by, about that checkerboard floor in the Five Doctors? Yeah, if you watch the DVD commentary, the writer, Terrence Dicks admits that no one, including himself, has any idea about how the pi thing is supposed to work.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I hate to say this but not being a particular Doctor Who fan, I keep reading this thread title as
"Is [there a] Doctor Who [is] Acutally Any Good"
And then I get confused every time I click on the link!
AJ
Posted by Law Maker (Member # 5909) on :
Doctor Who is actually very good. The City of Death is one of the best ones to start on. The first of the Key to Time series called The Pirate Planet is also exceptional as it is also written by Douglas Adams.
Go to the Doctor Who Homepage . Here they have an episode guide with descriptions from The Discontinuity Guide and the Doctor Who Televison Companion. It's really helpful if you're trying do decide what episode to watch next.
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
Is The Pirate Planet the one with Moons of Madness and Queen Xanxia and Mr. Fibulee? That one was awesome! Goodness, I can remember favorite jokes and quotes from that one as well. Douglas Adams rocks!
Or wait, wasn't that one the second segment to the key to time? I seem to remember the first one being hilarious too. Wasn't it the one with the Scringestone and the Schrivenzaal and Benroe the Heretic? That one was the first one with the first Romana. Gosh these are all just awesome. Wow, I'm such a geek!
[ November 13, 2003, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posted by Jeffrey Getzin (Member # 1972) on :
You're a geek? I have almost the entire series (and all of the Tom Baker episodes) on tape. (And no, I'm not going to replace them with DVDs. What would be the point?)
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