quote:

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And are you sure he'll turn over all the keys?

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Cripes. That hadn't even occurred to me.
 

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Posted by SirReal (Member # 5257) on :
 
If you do go through with it I believe a prompt changing of the locks is in order.

Good luck to you,
Christopher
 

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Posted by tabithecat (Member # 5228) on :
 
you can't "sell" a lease. You could be evicted if the landlard finds out than you'de be out on your ear with no where to live and without the money you put in. this a bad idea!

 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
The landlord has to approve is all. So long as the landlord says it's okay, you're all right.
 

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Posted by Julie (Member # 5580) on :
 
I don't know if you would inherit his phone number, but I would suggest changing it if you do. Having some random guy know where you live and what your phone number is doesn't sound good if he's this creepy. And I definitely second the changing of your locks.
 

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Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
 
talk to landlord, have all service reconnected in your name, number changed, locks changed.

if all of those don't happen, scram.

i would never EVER let a stranger have access to my apartment.
especially a guy.
ew.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Porce, that's a great idea.

I think I sounded friendly on the phone, and that got interpreted as encouraging? possible? something. It's a terrible idea! Of course I'm not going to let some strange guy crash on my couch! What is he thinking!?!? Yes, I'm friendly, but I'm friendly in PUBLIC, dang it.

By the end of the conversation, I think he'd realized how creepy the whole idea was, and then he was hemming about coming to Dallas for negotiations, because he didn't want to scare me off or get creeped out. He really needs to rent this place. Basically, in terms of business, he's a disaster. Once I sign the lease, any money I give him is gravy.

The lease is up in April, the last two months are paid for, and he's already paid for November. I could save a serious amount of cash here, but I want to be fair. I guess this is a business ethics question - what's fair? Whatever I can negotiate, using whatever tools at my disposal? These include an alarming openess about all his cards on his part, and a tendency to want to give things to girls with nice voices, also on his part. But I want to be fair. Dang Nice Girl syndrome. It only shows up at odd moments.
 

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Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
 
You're doing him a favor by taking on the lease (and as ak points out the landlord needs to approve this move). That's being nice enough (even if you benefit and save money).
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*sigh* I'm losing my scholarly, other-worldly disdain of money and the handling and negotiation of it more and more everyday. *waves goodbye sadly* Daughter of a capitalist, I am. It's true. This is so sad.

On the other hand, by not having to pay rent for three months, I could pay off my car and have more money to support starving writers on amazon.com
 

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Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
 
As long as you aren't fooling the guy into thinking that he's getting something from you, I think you're okay. Of course, if you start coming on to him just so he'll be extra generous, that's dishonest. Not that I needed to tell you that, of course.

In other words, listen to Zal. You're already doing the guy a favor.
 

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Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
 
Let him come to Dallas, then shoot him, take his money, and laugh evily. Like this without the horns or red skin of course.
 

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Posted by Leto II (Member # 2659) on :
 

quote:

---

*sigh* I'm losing my scholarly, other-worldly disdain of money and the handling and negotiation of it more and more everyday. *waves goodbye sadly* Daughter of a capitalist, I am. It's true. This is so sad.

---

Kat, I mean this in the nicest way possible with much love...


Welcome to the real world.


This guy is trying to have his cake and eat it, not even counting the weirdness with the whole "crash" thing. Unless the landlord has very detailed explanations of this—most preferably in writing—and a few other quibbles (like what are the other conditional factors of the lease), I would say this sounds like a cheesy scam or someone trying to skip town. Make no commitments and go right to the landlord about this. That is the person you want assurance from (especially regarding conditions of the place moving in), the guy could rush the agreement and skip out without ever looking back and leave you stranded with costs and security charges that were previously unmentioned.
 

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Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
 
Tags on to Leto:

And besides art and scholarship have been all about money since the end of the Rennaissance with the disappearance of patronage and the movement of scholarship from monastaries to universities.

You got capital? I say use it -- if the end result is beneficial.
 

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Posted by MoonRabbit (Member # 3652) on :
 
If you haven't actually met the guy, ask him how wide the door openings are, that you need to know because you are a "person of size" and some doors aren't wide enough for you. Also ask if the cleaning deposit applies to damage related to a medical condition.

I bet he backs out on the "crash pad" idea faster than you can say "deep fried twinkies".
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
kat- get a fax of his original lease and find out if it excludes his right to sublease. The landlord may be willing to deal directly with you, I don't know. If he is skipping, people will look up his address in a reverse phone directory and call you trying to collect. It's only a little annoying, but just so you know...

Don't take more than is right and don't give more than is fair. It's called boundaries, and it applies to money as much as "crashing rights". FWIW
 

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Posted by Leto II (Member # 2659) on :
 
Zal, now that's just downright cynical.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
Kat,
Provided everything is kosher with the landlord, I say don't worry about getting "too much" for nothing, especially if he's offered the whole shebang and you haven't wheedled anything out of him. If you're such a charmer that men lose all their business sense when dealing with you, my advice is to get a career on WallStreet.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
MoonRabbit.

Kat, it doesn't sound to me like you're doing anything unethical, but I'll echo what everyone else has said about the importance of seeing his lease, talking to his landlord, changing the locks, etc. He's probably a decent enough guy, but it's always a good idea to cover your back.
 

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Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 
As long as the landlord is OK with the arrangement, I don't see a problem.

And getting all the utilities changed to your name is more a benefit to him than you financially. I learned that one the hard way in college.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 


Thank you, all. I should find out today if it happens. Everything is being done with the full knowledge and cooperation of the management of the complex. I think it will be okay. I'll definitely ask for the locks to be changed.

This guy is a musician - that's what he wants a place to crash for, for when he comes to Dallas for gigs. I feel slightly better, because that makes me believe he really just wants a place to crash. Definitely not going to happen and I'm changing the locks, but I no longer feel stalked.

*crosses fingers*

Added: Leto and Zal: I know. This is the real world, and I'm part of it. It's was just kind of cool being a princess for a while, but once you hit adulthood, you have to figure out another way to keep that up, and for some reason I objected to the sugar daddy route.

[ November 17, 2003, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
In the original phone call, he was wild to get out of his lease. Willing to give up all he'd invested so far, just to not have to pay for December rent. I was approved, signed the lease, and we began negotiations.

He'd talk to his friends.

They told him he was a complete moron for not trying to recoup those two months rent. Having now secured a taker, he warmed right up to the idea of having me pay him for those two months.

I've already signed the lease.

Having dispensed with my distate for monetary negotiation, I highly enjoyed the conversation on Saturday. We started out very friendly, and I let him talk for twenty minutes about how lucky I was to have found the place. He then proposed a scenario: those two months, instead of paying the complex, I'll pay him. What did I think?

I rambled a bit about the demands of justice in the universe, and opined that no matter if any money exchanged hands, ethical arguments could be made for both me compensating him completely, and for me compensating him nothing at all. But I want to be fair.

Him: "I'm not hearing you say anything about money. It's okay - no hurt feelings anywhere."
Me: "You sure? I'm trying to explain where I'm coming from."
Him: "It's okay, honey. I know you're not used to this. Just say it."
Me: "Okay. <pause> We both played our cards. I've signed the lease, and legally I don't owe you anything."
<long pause>
Him: "I suppose we should have discussed this earlier."

Yeah.

I still want to be fair, and I'll bet I end up giving up a month's rent just in the interest of karma. It seems nice to split the windfall.

He called the electrical company this morning, and they are switching immediately. He's furious. He was also concerned because I always end the conversation after only an hour or so. Yes, that's all the time I reserved for listening to you backpedal. He requested that I reserve at least a two hour block sometime this week for us to discuss this. I don't know about that; I'll be busy moving into your apartment.

He's a nice guy. He is trying to have it both ways, now that the adrenline rush of find a taker has worn off. I hope he remembers how glad he was that he found someone to take over the lease. He's going to need that warm and cozy memory.
 

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Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
 
Two hours!?

Tell him that your time is worth $60 an hour or $1 per minute. You two can talk as long as he wants, but you're going to knock $1 per minute of discussion off of whatever you *might* be willing to give him *if* you decide that you want the good karma.

Plus a $25 connection fee for allowing him access to you in the first place.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
He called you HONEY? I'd say that you've already done your bit for karma by letting him cling to his miserable life.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
You were talking about adulthood and all, here's the clincher. Most musicians aren't truly adults, they stay in adolescence and don't think about long term decisions. Should they be adults? yes, but unfortunately they aren't. Also musicians are always long winded with a tendency for running late. I still can't believe he wants to "schedule" a 2 hour call though, that seems a bit extreme!

AJ
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Sounds to me like you made a deal and he is trying to change it now, after you are committed. He is also being incredibly patronising:

quote:

---

Him: "It's okay, honey. I know you're not used to this. Just say it."b
Me: "Okay. <pause> We both played our cards. I've signed the lease, and legally I don't owe you anything."
<long pause>
Him: "I suppose we should have discussed this earlier."

---

Great comeback though.
Tell him you don't have 2 hours to spare, sorry.
Since it seems to me you don't owe him anything that wasn't previously discussed, legally or morally, offer him 1/2 a month just to shut him up, take it or leave it. Then end the conversation and tell him to think it over.

Essentially, he offered those 2 months as a deal-sweetner/eniticement to get you to take over his lease. Now he wants to renege on his end of the deal. Screw that. Sounds like he's the one "not used to this"--ie making deals like a grown-up and sticking by the terms of the deal. And he wants to whine about it for 2 hours as well?? Don't let him get away with that--2 hours of whining would suck. Stay strong!! You have done nothing but accept his terms. Not your fault if he's now having second thoughts.

Since you have a signed lease, you have a good bargaining position that it's a done deal. Talk with your landlord more if you want.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
psst Tom, they are in TX. I'd let someone get away with "honey" south of the mason-dixon line. North of that and I'll tear your head off.

AJ
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*grin*

I do what Zal says, I'll bet I give him a heart attack.

I didn't mind the honey, not because I thought he wasn't be patronizing (he was), but because he can be patronizing all he wants - he's the one who gave away the farm.

My favorite bit was when he kept telling me I'd made a bad move in negotiation. "You shouldn't have told me you might be willing to pro-rate November. That wasn't a good move."

Or, from this morning, "I've thought about what you said, and I'm willing to consider it. Don't be worrying." Thanks. I'm not.

The last comment I said out loud. I'm starting to enjoy this.

[ November 17, 2003, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Why are you still having conversations with this guy at all? The deal is done and signed isn't it?
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
It sounds to me like he is projecting everything he did bad in negotiation on to you. Bizzare.

AJ
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Eh, because he is a musician. He plays the saxophone, and one of my best friends has a band. Maybe he'll learn something. That, and the aforementioned Nice Girl syndrome that strikes at the oddest moments.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
Yeah, I wouldn't talk to him anymore. It really sounds to me like you have the makings of a stalker. I'd definitely get the locks changed. Heck, I'd even see about relocating to a completely different unit, if there are any available. Hell, at this point and time, personally, I'd be backing out of the deal and changing my phone number. Guys have a tendency to go from, "Hey, baby, how you doin'?" to "You stupid, psycho bitch" in about 30 seconds. Be careful. If you really plan on talking to him, make sure he knows it's the last time you'll talk to him and after that, either your attorney or the police will be contacting him.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Kayla, you're totally right. Shows the inherent insanity (aside from ethical concerns) of using femaleness to get anything. I'll mention to the office about changing the locks today.

Added: Not that I tried to.

[ November 17, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
kat, oh my, and I said I was going to refrain from advice:

If your family has a lawyer friend, then use that name. Otherwise, tell me and I'll have a lawyer friend of mine "represent" you.

Next time he calls, say, "Look, I'm very busy, and I'm not comfortable with the way this is dragging out. But if you want to negotiate further, I've explained it all to my lawyer, SO AND SO, and he/she has agreed to handle it from here."

He'll sputter.

Cut him off. "I'm sorry, but it's out of my hands now. I've been advised to send any further communication through my lawyer. Would you like the name and number?"

Now get off the phone ASAP.

Good points: gets you off the hook, and even if he does contact lawyer, he has no ground AND you won't have to deal with it. Also lets him know that you are protected, so he won't mess wi' chu.

Bad point: scary for him. Tough rutabagas.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Okay.

[ November 17, 2003, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 


He needs to learn 3 big lessons, soon.

"Don't be a freakin' jerk."

"Just because she's nice, doesn't mean she's easy."

"DON'T BE A SCARY FREAKIN' IRRATIONAL STALKERY JERK. Suck it up."
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
(And oh, what a wonderful woman he picked to teach him.)

When you drag it out, even if it isn't going to go all stalkery, you encourage him to act like a scary jerk.

Do you think he'd do this with your dad? Or any guy?

That's what royally pisses me off. He needs to get the point, and you need not to have to deal with jerky manipulative little boy-men who treat women differently than other guys.

Ptui. I spit on him.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Plus he called you "honey." Regardless of the placement of the Mason-Dixon line, anyone who'd call someone to whom he isn't related "honey" is unquestionably a scumbag.
 

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Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
 
Or you could just change your phone number and neglect to mention it to him....
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
Tom, honey, that's so right.



kat, I've been where you are. It sucks. You are in a position where you can't be nice (at some point) -- effectively, you're being manuevered into either being taken advantage of -- and that is likely to be ongoing, once he gets away with it initially -- or being un-nice-girl and laying down the law. I think that in such a case, it's like me having to do a spinal tap on a little kid: I don't like it, but I do it as quickly, cleanly, and efficiently as possible, getting the little guy back into his own life as soon as possible. Ideally, he'll forget about me in a few days.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I'm not running.

Okay, called apartment complex and explained. They agreed it was creepy. Will call tonight with final offer of one month rent in interest of karma, take it or leave it. At sputtering noise, will have name and number of lawyer friend.

Stupid world. The flip side of the social contract of the Nice Girl is that said girl will not suffer adverse effects. The social contract is NOT being upheld.

[ November 17, 2003, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Kat, the more I think about it the more I think he has already used up his share of good karma being creepy. Even if you give him one month of the rent he will still probably refer to you as "that beech".

So I don't think it is worth it in the interest of karma (and you are talking to someone who tries to keep "karma" as happy as possible". Plus then you have to arrange to send him the money which is another point of contact.

AJ
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Although 1 month is more than I would offer, it's very reasonable. Just tell him a 2 hour confab is not going to change how you feel, so why bother having it?

One month is a more-than-reasonable compromise. He should take it and quit whining--period.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Do NOT send him money. If you want the karma, arrange it though the management company. Tell him "I have arranged with the management company that I will pay December's rent. Any further communication should be with them."

The problem with nice girl social dynamics is that communication is not always clear. You do not want to be sending this guy any mixed signals.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
kat, you're in charge. Remember that.

But I'm with AJ. Making the gesture indicates "open for negotiation" to an unstable mind, and the longer he's a part of your life, the more embittered he will become. However, you are in charge.

He needs to learn, though, that women are as worthy of respect as men, and what he wouldn't dream of doing to another guy (contract-wise), he shouldn't dream of doing to a woman.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I'll bet he's wiser after this. I'll talk to him one more time, do the above, and then it's done.

Turns out the there's a lawyer on campus here that employees can use for stuff like this. Very nice.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Yeah, the more I read this the more any further contact with him however indirect gives me bad vibes. I believe in "vibes" like I believe in karma. I just feel very uneasy with you talking to him again at all, though I guess some short communication will be necessary.

<being an overprotective sister if you will>

AJ
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
I disagree with AJ and CT's recent posts. If you offer the month rent as take-or-leave-it, a final deal-closer, it's not "more negotiation." Just make it clear that this will be the final transaction. There are plenty of ways to deliver money with little or no contact.

I would save the lawyer as a final option. If he does not want to accept your 1 month offer, you could even withdraw the offer and have him deal with your lawyer. I bet he'll shut up fast and take the offer if it's presented like that--"Either take the one month I'm offering or deal with my lawyer and probably get nothing, it's your choice." But stay polite, maybe not quite that blunt.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
Morbo, I've just been the nice-girl dealing-with-the-stalkery-guy a few times, and I'm more than willing to admit that I'm biased.

My experience, though, is that once I tried to say anything, it was "but, but .." and "you see .." and "you're not being fair." And then I'd try to explain why it was fair, and then he'd get more sputtery and have to tell me how it made him feel, and what problems it was going to cause him, and then he'd tell me that I'd get what I deserved, and ... ugh. And he would never have dealt with another guy like that -- wouldn't even have occurred to him to try. But some guys seem to believe that women owe them something, be it attention, or nurturing, or what have you.

We don't.

Talk to my lawyer. (My equivalent of "talk to the hand," only this hand can sue your sweet patootie for harassment.)

I guess it's a matter of perspective. I'm interested in how this guy responds to kat.

I'm also all about the strong, healthy, 50-foot-tall katharina today.

[ November 17, 2003, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Call me crazy, but isn't hiring a lawyer going to cost more than just paying the two months rent he wants? Now that the lease has been signed, explain to me why a lawyer is needed?
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
Stormie, she doesn't have to hire a lawyer. She uses one she has access to already, or I could've called in a friend who would love to deal with it for her. (My lawyer friends are mostly women who've had run-ins with stalkery guys before, and they'd do it pro bono, with pleasure.)

The lawyer is so she never has to deal with him again. She doesn't need to take messages from him, explain anything to him, nothing. Nada. If he is creepy, what he wants more than the money is to exercise control over her. This way, pushing the point becomes unsatisfying to him, and she stays protected.

You probably have to have dealt with creepy vibes from somebody to understand how important that peace of mind may be.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Very true, CT. I don't have the female perspective and I have basically ignored the creepy/stalker aspects of this mess to focus on the business. If some guy made a deal like this with me and then got all whiny about it and wanted to talk for 2 freakin' hours about it, I'd probably laugh at him. Maybe offer 1/2 month to shut him up. If he didn't like that offer, I would string him along till I moved in then invite him to sue, as he has no legal right to anything that wasn't discussed before the deal was finalised. Kat even quoted him as saying " I guess we should have discussed it earlier." Damn straight he should have brought it up earlier--Kat has already signed a lease and is fairly well commited to moving, from what I can tell.

But the stalker aspects are there. That's why I reccomend staying polite and business-like yet firm. And save the lawyer as an ace-in-the-hole.

Storm, Kat can get a lawyer cheap/free through her job.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
Come to think of it, katharina, make sure you keep excellent documentation. You have some notes here, but also take notes of what was said -- specifically -- during the next phone conversation.

Morbo, I'm the thrice-burned-now-all-pissy sort.

[ November 17, 2003, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
I second CT on the documentation and phone notes. And make sure you keep a receipt/cancelled check for any payment you give to him.

Thrice-burned-now-all-pissy -- what happens after the 4th burn? Or the nth? That's where I am at.

[ November 17, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 

quote:

---

Call me crazy, but isn't hiring a lawyer going to cost more than just paying the two months rent he wants?

---

quote:

---

And make sure you keep a receipt/cancelled check for any payment you give to him.

---

I still agree with the idea of going through the leasing company. Don't give him the information on your check.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Hey, CT - I sent an e-mail to your address here.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
This entire experience has driven home what complete baloney it is to deal with people who are used to getting their way all the time, and who expect everyone else to live in the world they created.

I dated an actor/director once rather, well, not seriously, but for a long time. This is bringing back flashbacks. I forgot how offended they get if someone doesn't think everything they do is wonderful. Literally, it's like it's a personal offense. "You disagreed with me.", he said indignantly. Yes, you child. I still do.

quote:

---

Guys have a tendency to go from, "Hey, baby, how you doin'?" to "You stupid, psycho bitch" in about 30 seconds.

---

Yep.

Stupid world.

Stupid world with no money, though.

[ November 19, 2003, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
kat, I'm calling around, and I will contact you today.
 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
That's a very interesting phenomenon, the switch from "would you please be my friend" to "you ****ing retard bitch". I just experienced it for the very first time quite recently. It's quite irrational. It seems to be the reaction of someone who is used to bullying people when someone they thought they could bully doesn't allow it.

I think it's best handled exactly as CT says, with lawyers. I would add that in the odd case where those don't work, it's nice to keep a shotgun at home and be willing and able to use it.

The essence of being a nice girl involves understanding when a nice girl had best become a nice girl with a shotgun.

[ November 20, 2003, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
This situation is making me so nervous I can hardly stand to read this thread. Two hours on the phone with this guy?

*warning* *warning* *warning* go the alarms in my head...

I would seriously break the deal at this point. This guy knows where you'll be living soon, is actually quite familiar and comfortable with the place and your neighbors. The relationship that's developed is really scary. This is not a time for "nice girl". This was never a time for "nice girl", it's a business deal and should have/should be treated as such.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
So Kat did you talk to the guy last night? You didn't exactly give details in your last post.

AJ
 

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Posted by Dead_Horse (Member # 3027) on :
 
Ewww.... I had a "business" deal with a guy once. After that, he started calling me every couple of days to talk about more work. About the third time, I realized he was breathing way too heavily. I'd have told him to go **** himself, but I think he was doing that already. I told him to find someone else to talk to and never to contact me again. <shudder>

Kat, please be very careful. The deal was done when you signed the lease. Don't give him ANYTHING else! Tell him not to ever call again.

Rain
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Okay. I talked to the guy one last time, and while he didn't actually call me that, he said "How do I know you won't be a [blank]?" when I said I would pay him one month's rent, but I wanted him off the lease that day.

He'd said he'd send in the paperwork to take his name off the lease last Monday. Now he'll be busy with his band for the rest of the week and will maybe find time next week to send it in. I don't think so.

I called the apartment place, laid it out, and expressed my concerns. They agreed it is creepy, talked to corporate office, and took his phone number to get him to sign the papers today. They've called me three times this morning for various bits of information, so they are definitely concerned.

Basically, he's willing to blow this all because he's offended that I am not comfortable with him having a key to my apartment, despite the comment that he still has it and could come up.

"Of course I'm not going to do that."
"Then don't say it."

What kind of idiot mentions the possibility of invading someone's privacy and then gets offended when she is not convinced he's a nice guy?

Anyway, I'm not living there, and it should be taken care of today. Either he or I will be off. CT hooked me up with some resources in case that doesn't work out. She's simply wonderful.

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I've thought about it. The one month's rent thing. I agree with Zal that I don't owe him anything, and I'm not doing it to be nice to him. Mostly it's because... I thought about it and decided that is what would be fair at the beginning, and I feel comfortable sticking to that.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 


I don't like the month of rent thing. It's not fair. It wasn't part of the deal. To me, it screams "I'm okay with you taking advantage of me! Have some money!".

You've got to look out for yourself before you worry about this loser's feelings. Seriously. That seems to have gotten lost somewhere in all these long phone calls.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
There wasn't a formal deal. Our reccollections differ, and I like the idea of splitting the windfall.

I'm NOT doing this for him, by any means. I'm doing it because I want to.

On the other hand, if he makes a fuss after today about turning in the key, I'll reconsider.

[ November 20, 2003, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
Ayelar,

I think you probably got what katharina said, but she is doing less for the guy than for her own sake. Remember at the beginning of this thread, she felt like she might be taking advantage of the guy's urgent need to get out of that apartment.

So whether or not it is legally okay for her to keep the money, or concidered ethical by others, and whether or not the guy doesn't deserve to 'split the windfall' because of his creepy jerkiness, what is important to her, in the long run, is how she sticks to her own standard of morals and ethics.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
I understand what you're saying, but it feels to me like showing weakness in this already sketchy situation.

I would be more inclined to make sure that this guy who knows where I sleep feels like I'm not someone you can mess with, that I'm not going to hand over some cash just because I'm a nice girl and don't want to hurt his feelings. Will I let him drop in when he's in town for the same reasons? What message is he getting, here?

For me, it's a matter of personal and physical safety, and with that, morals come second.

Again, though, I get your POV. I just really, really don't like this situation.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Kat, I assume that you're going to have the locks changed, right? Just turning in his key isn't good enough--it's pretty easy to get a key copied before turning it in.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
You know I understand both Ayelar's and Kat's points. I honestly don't know which way I would fall. I would have to be in the situation before I could make a decision.

I definitely think that if he is un-cooperative today you should start cutting back on the amount you give him. In fact I might have said that to begin with. He already indirectly called you a --- but the fact is the ball lies squarely in his court. If he is too "busy with his band" to do the small amount of paperwork necessary to get the money, he doesn't deserve it.

You made the offer to be fair, and comply with your own conscience. But if he isn't even willing to do a bit of work, he doesn't deserve the money.

The saddest thing was something you said back on the last page. "you hoped he was wiser after this" Unfortunately he appears to have a chronically selfish perspective on life and there isn't any room in his brain for the learning of wisdom.

AJ
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Yes. As soon as he turns in his key and he is off the lease, they are changing the locks.

Amka has it right - I just feel better this way. *grin* ALR, believe me, I appreciate the desire to not back down. I wouldn't say this is the right thing for everyone.

For me, it actually takes more strength to NOT tell him to go to hell.

[ November 20, 2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
(((((((Kat)))))))

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 

quote:

---

For me, it actually takes more strength to stick to what I thought was fair and NOT tell him to go to hell.

---

That, I'm certain, is a strength I lack.

I hope everything turns out well!
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
It fades in and out.

*considers* I think it comes from not having anything to prove. I don't want to deal with him, I'm not talking to him again, and the conversation's over, but I don't need to... prove how tough I am. I know how tough/squishy I am, and I'd rather stick to what I thought was fair than make sure this random stranger knows it as well.

But yeah, if today things are not all cleared up, the amount gets less every day.

[ November 20, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
I guess a lot of this stems from growing up under the hyper-protective thumb of my ultra-paranoid mother. For her, almost any man who a) knows where you live and that you live alone, b) considers you weak, and c) isn't a kind and wonderful human being is a major threat. I wouldn't go that far.

However, seeing that he fails the above test AND has expressed interest in "dropping in" AND is having loooong phone conversations with you and feels entitled to more long phone conversations AND has expressed much more familiarity with you than he should given the nature of the relationship.... that's enough to have me concerned. Almost certainly needlessly concerned. But still, there's this alarm going off in my head, and I don't like it.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I'm not going there until the locks are changed. He's not going to get a chance to hurt me.

And, judging from our conversations, I really don't think he would. I'm not running the risk, but it sounds like he's a selfish git, but not immediately dangerous.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
My rational side is sure you're right, and thinks I'm silly for worrying.

I have had some bad experiences with ex-residents and ex-boyfriends "dropping by" dead-drunk at 2am, though, so I'm probably just projecting my past traumas onto your situation.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
I don't get the feeling that you're in any real physical danger from the guy, but I could imagine scenarios in which he

a)decided to crash unannounced at your place after an evening down at a nearby bar

or

b) decided to hock some of your stuff to a pawn shop

I'm glad you're getting the locks changed.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Ah. Experience is funny.

I've had many more bad experiences with "Love means you do what I say" than with anyone who physically acts on impulses.

quote:

---

decided to hock some of your stuff to a pawn shop

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Good thing I have no stuff.

[ November 20, 2003, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by BelladonnaOrchid (Member # 188) on :
 
This sounds like a worrysome situation, Kat. I'm sorry you're going through it.

It does look like things are moving along to get him out of your life, however, and that's the way it should be. Get this creep-o off the path of your life for good.

I'm glad that the apartment complex is being very cooperative with you.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
One month rent, signing some papers today, and they'll change the locks tonight.

It's a good day.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
((((((Kat))))))

Way to go Kat!

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
All I can say is WOO HOO! for you.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Yay! All done,

(((((kat)))))

Enjoy the new place, kat.
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
Glad it all worked out, Kat.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 

 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
kat, how did this work out? Are you moved? I'm sure you are quite busy but let us know what is going on. Just anxious to hear from you. <<<<hugs>>>>
 

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Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
 
Wow. That was a really exciting thread for a bland Monday morning.

Thanks, Kat.

I'm glad it worked out for you, honey *runs*
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
I am also glad it worked out. Although one months rent is more than I would have given the guy, if it buys you peace of mind it's cheap at the price.

 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Glad it's resolved, and that you've got a great place to live!

No stuff? Go get some stuff!
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
How it all worked out:

The last time I talked to him, he was more concerned with everyone being comfortable. See, he didn't actually need the money, and was willing to write off a taker if he wasn't feeling warm and fuzzy about it.

Apparently I "hurt his feelings" when I pointed out that since I was on the lease, I didn't have to pay him squat. He kept saying how there wouldn't be any confusion if we could just meet in person, and if I wasn't comfortable with the situation (i.e. him having a key to my apartment for a bit) then let's call the whole thing off.

We did agree to one month of rent. He whined. Negotiations broke down at the "turn over your key" request. Seriously, what was he thinking? Why on EARTH would that be okay? He was offended that I didn't feel safe with him having a key. What the crud?

It worked out when I called the leasing company to get out of what I'd signed. They played mediator, and that day I went, signed things, they changed the locks, and guy does all future dealings with them. What I don't understand is why that wasn't the original scenario.

So, yes, all moved in. My home teachers did the moving, and got very tired from carrying to couch up two flights of stairs (third floor).

EG: *excercising restraint*

Noemon: I have some stuff, but nothing worth hocking. I mean, I have lots of framed art on the walls, a couple of couches, nice clothes, and fifteen boxes of books I need to unpack, but I'm notoriously picky about spending money on stuff I then need to haul around, so I own no electronic equipment outside my fifteen-year-old stereo. I have a computer that doesn't work; if someone stole it, at least then I wouldn't have to figure out what to do with it. *thinks* Oh, and Mom's jewelry. Oh yeah, that I should hide. I need a place to play movies now; maybe I'll aquire some stuff.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
That sounds like a decent amount of stuff, but like you said, not much of it sounds like the kind of thing that'd fetch much down at the local pawn shop.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Yay on being all moved in! That must feel great.

Katie, are you saying that you bothered to move a non-functional computer to your new apartment? Um, why, exactly?
 

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Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
 
ah, funny how the guys that plan on doing something shady are the ones that are so offended at such a sugggestion.

happy things worked out, kat.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 

quote:

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Katie, are you saying that you bothered to move a non-functional computer to your new apartment? Um, why, exactly?

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