Here's a question I'm starting to weigh now (I know it's a bit early!) because it's going to start affecting today very soon. I was hoping maybe some of you older and wiser folks who have been to college or maybe grad school would have some useful advice.
I'm currently at George Washington University in D.C.; I'm a first-year student, but I have 32 credits courtesy of AP tests. That makes me, officially, a sophomore plus two credits. I'm currently studying International Affairs, and I have a merit scholarship that amounts to a bit more than half tuition each year (private school, so tuition is hefty -- about $29,000). The school pays this merit scholarship for the first 120 credits of my education, which means I will be forced to graduate in three years -- unless I can provide documentation that I am pursuing a second major.
Another wrench in the works is that right now I'm planning to go to law school, which is three more years of approximately $40,000 tuition per year (yikes).
So the dilemma: do I do undergraduate work for three years or four? Or three and a half? Basically,
1) I go to college for four years and come out with a double major B.A....International Affairs and Political Science, for example. This costs an additional $26,000, approximately, with room/board/books added in. I am able to study abroad for a full year instead of only one semester (my scholarship applies to study abroad). I then attend law school, but I may have to work for two or three years in between before I am able to.
2) I go to college for three years and come out with a single major in International Affairs. I study abroad (in Spain, hopefully) for a semester, and graduate in May of 2006. I have $26,000 dollars more to invest in law school tuition, and would be better prepared to go to school straight through.
3) I do some other combination of things that I haven't even thought about!
Thoughts?
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
There are generally college loans for Law School and for most other grad schools. Most people wouldn't be able to afford it otherwise. Incidentally one of my former roomates is a grad student at GWU geting a double Law and International relations graduate degree.
AJ
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The simple fact is that college is not really about getting an education, but rather getting a piece of paper as fast as possible. Go for the three.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
and for International Affairs do whatever can get you the most travel time. It makes you much more valuable later on.
AJ
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Three.
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
I'm for four. Take your time and go abroad for a whole year. Add another major. It will be a good investment in the long run. And get loans for law school. Don't work and save up first. It will pay for itself, I promise. My sister went to a very expensive law school and owed a whole lot in loans when she got out, but paid them all easily within the first five years or so, and has pulled down so much more each year since then that the loans were basically the best financial move she ever made.
Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
I did three partially because of financial concerns and partially because most of remaining classes that interested me required too many prerequisites for me to bother with. I occasionally regret graduating early because I missed out on a lot of common experiences (and football games!) and it made study abroad very difficult. But it's only a mild regret because I was ready to move on and I did get to study in Spain for a summer after my senior year.
It sounds to me that you've got a good handle on your options. I suggest that you sit down with your course catalog and plan what classes to take for each of your options (I’m really not that anal, but it’s the one useful thing the Honors program made freshmen do). If you do it right you can have yourself setup so that you don't have to decide when you're graduating until you're most of the way through your third year.
[ November 29, 2003, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: Risuena ]
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
Well, unless you were lucky and went to a high school that pays for the AP tests (like me ) you've already invested a good amount into getting those 32 credits. Getting the best bang for your buck includes getting out of school as soon as possible, so three is possibly the best one.
Posted by BYuCnslr (Member # 1857) on :
There isn't really a simple three of four answer to your question, at least I don't see it as one. If all you're going to college for IS a piece of paper, as Tom suggested, or for professional training, then you might want to do three. But if you're there TO attempt to get an education, or if you go by the thought that college isn't only to get an education, or a peice of paper, but for discovering who you are as a person (in the original sense of the left bank) then I'd say four. Satyagraha
Posted by Rahl22 (Member # 1376) on :
The additional cost of attending school for that extra year far outweighs any benefit gained by the second major. Get out in three years and go into law school.
Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
I really don't know. It depends on what you would get out of the extra year. More college experiences, more classes, more travel could all be a good thing. I know you are a very outgoing person who makes the most out of whatever you are doing so in a way it doesn't really matter, all of your choices are good ones.
Making a decision based on $26,000 however is not necessarily a good idea. That is a drop in the bucket compared to all the rest of the tuition. Can you get all loans deferred while you are a student? Because you can pay it off easily after you get out of law school. You might regret making a decision all about money. I know lots of people who regret their decisions.
You are young and enjoying college life right now. What will law school be like? Will it be enjoyable with time for extracurricular activities? Or all work/no play? Consider how old you will be when you get out of law school and start the work force. I know starting lawyers work a lot of hours. If those years will be rather long and hard, I might consider doing four years of college and soaking up as much life experience as possible beforehand.
All I can say from my experience with schooling is that I did NOT make the most out of my college experience and I did not enjoy it much nor did I know what I was missing until I went to medschool and had the time of my life for a couple years. Then the second 2 years of medschool and 3 years of residency were completely joyless and hard and one day I woke up and I was 30 years old and realized I hadn't experienced hardly anything in life at all. In one way I got a great education and in another way I feel like I wasted my 20s--my best years--on getting a piece of paper.
Was it worth it? I have no idea.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
If you know you are going to law school, there are programs that accept Juniors. So you could be talking about less than three years. Look into it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Right now, my administrative assistant is a double major in English and Sociology. She's currently going back for a third degree in Computer Science.
The extra majors basically mean nothing; you won't learn anything at college that you can't learn on your own, for the most part, either on the job or on your own time. They're good for impressing the kind of snobs who're impressed by that kind of thing, but generally they're more impressed by multiple Master's degrees, anyway.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I agree with Tom Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Yep. I majored in English and am getting my master's in social work.
Go figure.
I also agree with Tom. Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
Tom,
I'm actually really surprised you feel that way, I don't know why. For a second there I couldn't figure out if your first post was sarcastic or not. Why do you feel that way about it? *is a little confused*
Everyone,
Thanks for the advice. I'm still undecided, although those of you who talked about having more time to travel made a good point. *sigh* We'll see, I guess..
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: The extra majors basically mean nothing; you won't learn anything at college that you can't learn on your own, for the most part, either on the job or on your own time. They're good for impressing the kind of snobs who're impressed by that kind of thing, but generally they're more impressed by multiple Master's degrees, anyway.
Werd.
Posted by Argèn†~ (Member # 4528) on :
Kasie, why would Tom's advice be sarcastic? Degrees really are just a rung on a ladder of career achievement. That's how they are treated in the job market. Some degrees may be a higher rung, but multiple degrees, especially in unrelated areas, are often nothing but redundant. The only thing they wind up being good for ten years later is conversational pieces and for affirmation in intellectual circles. That doesn't mean to not enrich yourself in school, it just means that a pragmatic approach should be taken if you want to get started on a real career path.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Why do you feel that way about it?"
I feel that way because intellectual rigor has been so abandoned by most universities that the college degree has been cheapened into just another line on a resume. With grade inflation, the legal expansion of in loco parentis into adulthood, and the tightening job market resulting in more and more arbitrary "requirements," the modern college degree is the equivalent of the old high school diploma -- an education that's ultimately not as important as having a piece of paper saying that you got one.
By eventually graduating from high school, you missed out on a lot of classes you could have taken. Why did you choose to leave high school, instead of taking -- as a hypothetical -- Econ III?
[ December 01, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I'm getting a tad pissed at the whole "we want a college degree before you step into the room, or if not that ten years of experience" attitude of many companies. Particularly when I'm fairly certain my competence is at least that of many college graduates.
Oh well, back to working on creating a consulting business to use to get companies to pay me large sums of money. Thoughts on the logo?
It appears my site may be having some DNS issues. I was able to go to my site by name yesterday, but not today. It should resolve itself over the next 24-48 hours.
[ December 01, 2003, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Tom,
I suppose it's possible that college graduates today are not as well educated as those of the past (though I don't know for sure, not having done any research), I wouldn't say that college is worthless as an educational endeavor. It's true that anything that can be learned in college can also be learned through independent study, but, really, most people learn better when they are taught.
Trying to learn something on your own is generally more difficult that having it explained to you. First you have to take the time to identify a good learning resource. Not all books out there are accurate, and many that are are completely inappropriate for beginners. Then you have to have enough motivation to regularly take time out of your normal schedule to study. Most people just aren't capable of doing that. College, especially for the working person, makes scheduling more concrete, and the fact that you pay for it gives you the motivation to get your money's worth.
Computer science and other technical majors are excellent examples of fields where having a mentor is invaluable. Sure, you can try going to your local bookstore and picking up a copy of C++ for Dummies, but most people, especially beginners, will be hard-pressed to find a text or series of texts that will give them an understanding of the critical thinking skills necessary for architecting good software. And even if you do find a good text, it is highly unlikely that you will find one that will answer all of your questions.
And it's not just learning in science and technology that is enhanced by having a teacher and a good course of study. Having a group for discussion, a writing requirement and an enforced review of what you have written enriches the educational experience of the arts and humanities as well. Yes, you can join a book club, or discuss literature, art or history in an online forum, but I know of very few, if any, community groups that teach you how to write a good analysis and then give you a good review of your techniques and ideas.
Yes, you can find ways to do all of this on your own, but why go to all that trouble when you can get the same results in less time by taking classes?
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Actually extra majors can help you get into law school if you provide a convincing reason for tieing it into your primary objective of international relations.
International relations and poli sci is a very common double major (the aforementioned roommated did just that) and a lot of people you will be competing against in grad school will have exactly that combo. So you could do that combo yourself or find something slightly different and quirky that ties in just as well to make yourself stand out on your grad school application essay.
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) you've already invested a good amount into getting those 32 credits. Getting the best bang for your buck includes getting out of school as soon as possible, so three is possibly the best one.
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