This is topic I hate it when people I don't know well... (Update) in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
...and who don't know me ask who else is coming.

Isn't my company enough?

I like getting people together, and it turns out that I have to do it if it is going to happen sometimes, but I absolutely hate it when people ask, when invited, who else is going to be there.

Do they honestly not realize how offensive that is? You mean, my company isn't enough?

It is almost invariably other girls asking. It's happened twice in the last month, and the first time I didn't give over the goods. "Who's coming? Lot's of charming people. You'll love them."

The second time (this morning), I gave in because I didn't know her that well, she didn't know me, and I thought it would be comforting to her to know that people she knew were coming. One of them turned out to be someone she was interested in (an old friend of mine), and now she wants information to capitilize on this unexpected getting-together opportunity.

AAARRRGGGG!!!! I hate people. I do. I hate them all. *scowl* This happened in college all the time. Half of the surface girl friends I made I made because they were in love with my best friend, and getting to be friends with me was the best route to him. Fortunately, my best friend is cool enough he attracts generally cool human beings, and I was certainly secure enough that watching them throw themselves on the rock of his indifference was amusing, so I didn't mind. I'm pretty secure this time as well, since I'm not interested in said old friend and I know him well enough to know he'll probably just shrug it off, but I'm annoyed.

Probably a little less secure.

Come to think of it, the last time it happened, the girl was asking about this same guy. Jeez. Maybe that's the key?

*thinks* He is gorgeous. But not... good grief.

</rant>

*bows* Thank you for listening. Hatrackers are my favorite kind of human beings.

[ December 18, 2003, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 
So, who else is going to be in this thread?

Someone cool, I hope.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Ralphie... *laugh* I have no words.

You know what I mean, though?

*sigh* No, probably not. You're the one that people want to know is going to be there before they'll agree to come.

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Come to think of it, it is only girls that ever ask that. That does make me feel a bit better. I'd prefer to be a voluntary member of the hunting process, though. If it was, "He's going to be there? That's great! I hope to get to know him better. Can I talk to him beforehand?", I'd hand over information willingly and wish her well. It's the... attempted surreptitiousness that's annoying me.

[ December 09, 2003, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
 
If it's a girl inviting, i dont ask. Becasue its a girl inviting.

If its a guy inviting, i will sometimes ask. Because i want to know if there will be girls there. I would assume the reverese is true in your case, corrobarated by the fact that it is usually girls that ask.

then again, im a shallow, self centered, evil poo poo head so... i dunno.

But i still think youre great Katharina. And while we're at it, I think youre great too Ralphie.
 

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Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
 
and to be honest, i did not read your whole post before posting myself, i then went back and read the rest of your post and found that you had already come to a similar conclusion and my post was redundant and superfluous.
i will now hit myself in the head with the frying pan then insert this carniverous earwig into my brain.

 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 
You know, there are a couple of reasons why a person may ask "who's going to be there" that have nothing to do with your company not being 'good enough'.

First, they may want to know the feel of the group. When my friends Katie, Shaye, Cam and I get together, I usually end up doing most of the talking and entertaining. When my friends Anna, Danielle, Diana and I get together, I have to fight to get a word in. Both groups are fun, but there are times when I just can't be the entertainer, or there are times when I can't expend the energy to fight for attention. Sometimes I need to be the entertainer, and sometimes I need to be able to sit back and watch other people spin.

I'll ask who's going to be there so I know what kind of atmosphere to expect, mostly so I can prepare myself.

Another reason is that they could be avoiding someone in particular, and asking to make sure that person won't be there.

I have to say, if your company wasn't 'good enough' I probably wouldn't show up to your party regardless of who else would end up being there. I've always felt uncomfortable going to people's houses when I don't particularly like them, whether there are tons of people there to act a shield or not. It just seems kind of smarmy.
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 
I've asked before because I wanted to know if certain people would be there that I didn't want to deal with. But, in general, if I ask, it's not because I don't care to hang out with just the person inviting me, it's because I want to know what to expect. If my buddy Jesse calls me up and wants to hang out, it will be a much different experience if it's just the two of us, or if we bring our SOs, or if he's inviting his work friends (who I don't know), etc. Similarly, if Juliette's friend invites us to a play, it makes a huge difference if it's just the three of us, or if everyone from the class of '02 theater department will be there.

[Edit: Turns out I'm not the only one that does this.]

[ December 09, 2003, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: saxon75 ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*thinks* That makes lots of sense.

It's just my insecurity leaking out, I guess. I'll take it back into the shop.

I think... I think I feel they don't know me well enough to ask me that. One I've only met twice, and the other a few times before that. The girl from this morning I know barely at all. Frankly, it makes me feel used for access to the guys. I resent that.

*wanders off to read Edith Wharton again* Maybe this will help.

[ December 09, 2003, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
I almost always ask, though I don't always ask the host. I'm curious. I like to know what to expect. Never really occurred to me that it would bother anyone... I mean, normally I have a good idea of who's going to be at a given gathering anyway, but sometimes there are extraneous people who will attend something; if I don't see them very often, then I'd make a special effort to be there.

But fundamentally, I'm just curious. I like to know things.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
When I'm invited to a party, I ALWAYS ask who else is coming -- for a few reasons.

1) If it's someone I actively dislike, I won't go.

2) If there aren't enough vibrant people, it's going to be a bad party, so I won't go.

3) If there are VERY few people, the host or hostess will really need warm bodies, so I WILL go.

And so on....
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Okay.

General consensus is that this is normal.

I still disagree with it. This is not a party - it's arranging for a road trip to see a museum exhibit in Houston. For me, if I like the person asking and/or I want to do the event, I'll go. It isn't contingent on whether or not they've prepared company to my satisfaction. You can have a reasonable time with just about any group of people, and if worse comes to worse, at least you'll see the event still.

I don't like being picky about company. There are so many people who are hidden treasures, and if I come prepared to have a nice time, I can guarantee I'll have it. Everyone is passionate about something, and refusing to go to the things because the company isn't up to my requirements feels like shutting off parts of the world.

[ December 09, 2003, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
If its going to be a large party, I know I probably won't be able to spend much one on one time with the host or hostess. It can be really miserable to go to a big party and find out you don't know or like anyone but the hostess (no matter how much you like the hostess).
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I think it depends on your relationship with your friends.

Alot of my friends are in different areas now. But sometimes when someone is having a party and we're talking about it i'll ask who's going to be there. or they'll just offer up who is and who isn't coming. whether it's just for the sake of knowing, or to coordinate rides, or to find out who *isn't* going and to try to make them come.

for whatever the reason, i'm never offended if someone asks, and i don't think anyone ever minds when i ask. it's just something we do.

"oh, you're having a party. nice. Who's coming?"

that question has no bearing on whether i come or not, of course i'm coming, but i still want to know. to get the feel of the party, whatever.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Kat, Do your friends ask who else is coming before they agree to come or is it more along the lines of "tell me who else is coming and then I'll decide if I want to come". The second seems alot less polite.
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 
For me, it's even more important to know who will be coming on a road trip than to a party. If there are people at a party I don't like, I can always leave, but once you're on the road, you're kind of stuck with whoever else is in the car with you. There are certainly friends of friends who I wouldn't want to be in close proximity to for hours on end.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I don't know them well enough for them to be friends - we are more like aquaintances that share a mutual intrest. I've only met the girl from this morning twice at different parties. The event is a road trip to Houston to see a museum exhibit.

Okay, I'm starting to feel guilty. I still don't like it, but it doesn't sound like it she was conciously being rude. She did wait until after she enthusiastically agreed to come. Actually, it went like this:

1. Enthusiastic agreement e-mail.
2. Nervous caveat e-mail. I might have to work, so I'd go the next weekend. I'll keep you posted.
3. Request for guy's information e-mail.

Maybe there's nothing to it? I don't know...

quote:

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There are certainly friends of friends who I wouldn't want to be in close proximity to for hours on end.

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Oh, that's what I don't like, though... I don't like excluding people, and if they're going to the same exhibit, surely there's enough in common to find a mutual topic of interest...

[ December 09, 2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 
I want to know who's coming, because:

a) I'm usually very shy with strangers and don't want to end up among people I don't know

b) sometimes, I don't feel like being around certain people

C) lots of others reasons, including: will there be boys? ::grin::
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Exactly. *sigh* Kama, to be honest, all of the above bother me.

1. I have sweet friends who believe that no one should feel left out, and they talk to the people who look like they might feel like they are.
2. If you don't want to be around a certain person, then don't talk to them.
3. If there weren't guys, you wouldn't come? I do feel used!

If you want to do the event and/or like the host, you go. If you don't know anyone, talk to someone - there are fascinating people everywhere. If someone's annoying, don't talk to them. There may or may not be guys there, and while that's a bonus, it's not the point of all social interaction. I have kissed an infinitesimal percentage of people I have met - it isn't going to happen with most of them anyway.

Is my thinking really that wildly different on this issue? Oh, this is so sad. Although that would explain a lot.

Does that mean that if you go to a party and don't talk to anyone, it really is meant as a judgement? This hasn't happened to me in a very long time, but it's reconfirming every junior high insecurity I had. Oh jeez.

[ December 09, 2003, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 

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Oh, that's what I don't like, though... I don't like excluding people, and if they're going to the same exhibit, surely there's enough in common to find a mutual topic of interest...

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First, they may want to know the feel of the group.

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Definitely. It also helps me know what to wear -- I have friends who always dress casually and some who always look ready to meet royalty. I need to have some estimate of which type there will be more of.

quote:

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Another reason is that they could be avoiding someone in particular, and asking to make sure that person won't be there.

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quote:

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1. Enthusiastic agreement e-mail.
2. Nervous caveat e-mail. I might have to work, so I'd go the next weekend. I'll keep you posted.
3. Request for guy's information e-mail.

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A few, but I know them well. Not strangers or aquaintances - I don't know them well enough to decide to cross them out of my world yet.

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My suspicion: Having discovered Brandon's going but might have to work, wants contact info to set up going separately on a different day, thereby depriving me of Brandon and of this new aquaitance's company, and using me in the process.

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Who knows? Maybe girls do stuff like that.

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Yes. Yes, they sometimes do.

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*hugs Christy* Thanks. That's how I feel - hurt and slightly used. I do stuff in large groups for reasons I've gone over before, but, basically, it consists of believing that I should, and I meet the occasional incredible person often enough that it's ultimately somehow worth it. I think. *concentrates* Okay, yes, it is.

[ December 09, 2003, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by pepperuda (Member # 1573) on :
 
Oh, oh, Kat, are you going to the special exhibit at the art museum in Houston? I was just there last month and they have The Starry Night and lots of Monet's and Van Gogh's and Picasso's and.... It was fabulous!!! I do wish our timing was better.
I wouldn't have asked who else was going, cause I'm certain I wouldn't have known anyone else anyway.
I think that, in general, I would ask who else was going just out of curiosity. I just want to know. But, it would have absolutely no bearing on whether or not I came. I'd come just to see YOU.
I hope everything works out for the best. Love ya. (((((())))))
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Yes!!! That's so cool you saw it! I'm excited. I'm probably going twice because there's another friend who wants to go but can't until a little later. *hugs pepper*
 

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Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
 
kat, while you may know your friends are going to be good about making sure shy people aren't let out-THEY WON"T. I'm like Kama, very shy in groups if I don't know people well. So I try to avoid big groups and meet people on an individual basis. Frankly, in groups, you never know if people are going to make an effort to include you or not. And if they don't know your friends, they might not want to take the risk. Or might not want to feel like people are talking to them just to make them feel included and would actually prefer to be talking to someone else. Just remember, that while you know and trust your friends, other people don't, and you really can't reasonably expect them to just figure, oh, she says her friends are nice, i should fit right in. A lot of times, it doesn't work that way.

I spent years with a wonderful best friend who invited me to all her gatherings, and had lots of friends-and I only knew her well, of all the people at those gatherings. And while she DID include me, and talk to me, and make sure I wasn't left out-it was horrible anyway, because I knew I had no place there, and it was only because she was my friend that I could even pretend to belong. I don't go to large gatherings where I only know one person anymore. You have to realize that while your company is wonderful...in large groups, its very hard for one person to be enough

[ December 09, 2003, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Toretha ]
 

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Posted by Jaiden (Member # 2099) on :
 
Hmmm... I usually ask out of curiousity.

But sometimes it's because it's because I have a feeling "X" is going to be there and if we're both there it will be overly awkward and it may ruin the get togeather...
(I made a few "good" friends in highschool (I picked friend's side over anothers apparently- I didn't know they were fighting...) and if it's a group from highschool getting togeather, I'd rather not ruin it for others if some of those people are there (and no, it doesn't work to just not talk to them. They're very good at sitting and glaring at you).)

I also always "counter offer" a get togeather with whomever invited me if I fee the need to say no. (and if it's a close friend I will tell why. "Well... so and so and I aren't in the best terms right now, so I think I'll bow out of this get togeather. Want to do something next week?")

I don't find it rude... and I usually understand if someone says no after hearing the guest list. I don't want my guests/friends to be uncomfortable. Sometimes after hearing why I will say "but... please come? I'd really like you to be there".
 

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Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
 
Katharina, I think I understand your problem for the most part.
"Isn't my company enough?" "...it's reconfirming every junior high insecurity I had."

Of course it is, and if people are impolite , its really not your problem.
Now in the particular case mentioned above, I don't really think the person was being impolite, and you may have been a tad bit paranoid, so in response to
"So, what are the chances I'm right?"

Almost zero.

and "Should I send her his e-mail?"

Sure you should.

Looking back at the general case though, if a person asks after accepting an invitation, then it's not impolite, it's just a question and should be thought of that way. If, however, they ask after you invite and before they accept(or at the very very least express serious interest), I find it extremely unlikely that they are being anything but rude... don't really think there are very many decent excuses for that. That being said, I myself have been guilty of basically the precise behavior you abhor, and I've also been guilty of trying to be subtle about it. Meaning that I ask that way because I'm not particularly interested in the host or hostess as a person and that I would have to go out of my way. I realize that means I seem like a self-admitted jerk, but really it just means that I don't always go out of my way to be nice.
Anyhow, if someone doesn't find you 'enough' then that's not your problem, it's that they cannot appreciate you, not that you're unworthy of appreciation.
Such an act is rude, regardless, but I think some allowance should be made for people who are shy or have personal vandetta's (that last, btw, I actually do find silly- my view point being that there are people I hate so bad that my sub-conscious would very much like to kill them, and not one of these people would ever stop me from going to any social event, nor would I worry about causing a social problem). So if you are offended by such rudeness, there's a very quick and easy way to solve such a problem. The issue is that you'd like to be appreciated for your own sake, right? Ok, then instead of asking them to come to such and such a party/event/etc., ask them more this way "would you like to go with me to blipety blank? Or whatever. If, then, they say they want to, simply tell them other people will be there, after which they can ask whatever questions(or back out) they want without being neccessarily rude, and even id they're still rude, no sweat, because your sensitive point has been resolved.
If alternatively, you really want them to come, and don't care if you have to bargain, of course you can still up the ante beforehand by saying so and so is coming too and they're really hot or whatever.
Hope this helps

[ December 09, 2003, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: suntranafs ]
 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 
Wow. I agree with suntranafs.

Now I feel dirty.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
If you don't ask, who knows who may come?

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Well, if you weren't worried about your reputation, whenever someone asked this insulting question you could say:

"well, truth be told, it'll just be you and I. I was hoping to get you drunk and have my way with you. But now that you've forced the secret out of me, I'll just have to invite <insert list of lots of people here> to keep up appearances."

or you could say:

"well, frankly, you're the only person I could think to invite and, well, I'm not even sure I'll be there.

or,

"Oh shoot! That's right, I've invited too many people already. I hope you understand. I'll make it up to you next time. If there is a next time."

or

"Mostly it's a kids party. Bunch of 3 and 4 year olds from day care. I was really figuring you'd be handy as a kid herder, you know. I can pay!"

or

"Technically speaking, everyone in the world is invited. Well, at least everyone with a web connection. Or rather those with a connection fast enough to get my webcam downloads. Wear something 'nice.'" (arch your eyebrows suggestively at this last).

or

"Oh just a few friends from a support group I'm in. Mostly they've got permission to attend a social event away from the facility, but there are a few who'll just have to try to make it, you know. So it's hard to say who'll actually be here. It also depends on how busy the guards are that night."

or

"Well, my parties usually start out small, but by about 1 am, who the heck knows who'll be lying around in a pool of their own vomit. By the way, feel free to spend the night."
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
I don't ask "Who's going to be there?" but instead "Is <insert name of disliked person> going?" Most of the time I don't care who's going to be there (not that I don't care about people but I can get along with many many people), and quite often several people turn out to be people I know from elsewhere. Most of the parties/gatherings I attend are quite small, rarely over 10 people, which makes it a lot harder to avoid someone with whom I just can't get along.

It's weird, in thinking about this, I realized I only ask two or so people this question - I guess I have this feeling they'd try to make me be friends with a former friend again... Hmm, that's interesting. But 99% of the time I don't ask. I've never been asked this, but I rarely host gatherings, so it doesn't count.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Or just start naming celebrities. And when none of them show up, you can try to make light of it "oh they couldn't make it." Then throw a hysterical fit screaming about what b*tch Drew Barrymore is for throwing a party the same night you are. And in Bel Air no less!!!
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 


All the parties I went to in college were concerned with two things, neither of them having to do with "specific" people, at all . . .

Question A) Beer or booze?
Question B) Theatre or music majors?



Of course, now that I am an adult with child, I don't go to parties anymore, and don't have a social life, so I wouldn't even know whom to ask about . . .
 

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Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
 
If asking who will be there makes me rude or a coward, then color me so.

Being a shy person, if it's a party at the inviter's house, I ask how many people are going to be there unless the inviter is a friend who is so close they'll let me clean their kitchen. Then I don't care how many or who will be there, I'll stay occupied cleaning.

If it's a small gathering, I avoid being the third unless it's with people I know well.

In a large gathering, I know that I'll find someone to chat with and won't wind-up hanging on the hosts' coat-tails.

On the other hand, I rarely ask what we'll be doing until just before the event. If I'm comfortable with the group of people, we could go watch rain for all it matters to me.

When I say that I won't be able to make it, I always try to set a time when the inviter and I can get together. And if I have not been particularly fond of the inviter, I still make the date. Anyone who makes the effort to make me feel welcome is someone I want to spend time with.
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 

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you don't know anyone, talk to someone - there are fascinating people everywhere.

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If someone's annoying, don't talk to them.

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If there weren't guys, you wouldn't come? I do feel used!

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I would come. But perhaps with not so much make up on Well, I'm joking, since I don't wear much make up anyway, and would really dress the same way regardless if there are guys there or not. But I'd like to be able to prepare myself psychically
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 
And, what Toretha said.
 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 

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If asking who will be there makes me rude or a coward, then color me so.

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because he can't understand why cats don't smell, but that's a different story

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He'd probably have an easier time understanding if your explanation made more sense.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Back in high school, this guy in Biology class asked me to come to his birthday party, along with another girl in the same class who I was friends with.

Now, I should be clear that I didn't think it was a come-on, because he was gay.

I told him I'd like to, but I ddidn't know many of his other friends and I wanted to know who else was coming.

He said, "Look, hon. There will be at least three groups of people: People sitting around munching and talking; people dancing and people standing around outside smoking anything that doesn't smoke them first. I figure you'll be right at home in the first group."

Well, I didn't go.

Sometimes, no matter how well you like a person, their company isn't enough, especially if they'll be lots of people there. A host or hostess has to visit with everyone. So even if they'd love to spend an evening with you, they may think that if there are lots of people there that they WON'T get to spend much time with you.

So it shouldn't be seen as an insult, right?
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 

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He'd probably have an easier time understanding if your explanation made more sense.

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It made sense.

[ December 10, 2003, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Kama ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 


If I'm not sick, I'll go. I'll go especially if I don't know anyone and the host is a friend, because I like interesting people and they tend to attract interesting people. I like strangers. I prefer to travel and wander through strange cities by myself. Everyone has a story, and the only way to get stories is to be around people you don't know and listen to them talk.

I must say, this thread has startled me. I didn't realize how different my thinking was. I mean, heck, this is Hatrack!

I still think I'm right, but maybe I'll give a bit more leeway.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 

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I like strangers. I prefer to travel and wander through strange cities by myself.

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I appreciate that Kat, but I on the other hand, normally do not like to go to parties where I only know one person. It takes a lot of energy to meet a lot of new people and I am often not up for it. If there's a get together with a few friends and we just watch movies or something I'll often go even if I'm feeling a bit wiped out. But if it's a whole bunch of people I don't know and there's a huge elaborate thing planned that we all have to organize and what not that I probably wont go if I'm feeling tired.

It's not if I like the host, it's that someimtes finding out who is there and what's happening is necessary to see if I'm really up to it. I mean I think it's only fair that people ask whose coming if one answer would mean that they sit in the corner all night and don't talk.

Hobbes

[ December 10, 2003, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*raises hands palms-up*

Okay, so people want to know who else is going to be there before they'll come.

I have an idea. If you really need to know and it is remotely more organized than getting together to watch a movie, find out who else will be there from someone beside your host(ess). There has to be a way, and that way, you don't place your host in the position of needing to offer up the other guests as incentives.

Maybe it's just all part of the way human drama is generally played. *frown* I don't like it.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
That doesn't make much sense Kat, I mean if we don't know whose coming how are we supposed to find someone else to ask who is coming? What if we guess wrong and ask someone who isn't invited?

Hobbes
 

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Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
 
And by my way of thinking, the logic of saying "isn't my company enough" begs the question, "Isn't it just as rude to be "enticed" by what you may be doing as who you may be doing it with?"
 

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Posted by BrianM (Member # 5918) on :
 
Kath you are probably taking it the wrong way. They probably like you and just want to know if anyone they dislike/want to avoid will be there.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Hobbes:

There's usually a way. Why are you being invited in the first place?

If it is an entirely new situation and you will truly know no one except the host, then either a) you know the host well and ask, or b)there is a stated purpose to the occasion.

If you know them well, you can ask. If you don't, it's probably an occasion, then make your decision based on the occasion. "Do I want to go to the exhibit/watch the movie/honor my friend's wedding with my presence/play frisbee/river dance enough to take my chances with a strange crowd?" If yes, then go. If nothing else, you can do the activity. If no, then don't go. It obviously took some planning, and it's rude to ask the make sure the host had arranged things to your satisfaction before deciding to go.

It sounds impossible to find out what it will be like only in the most extreme cases. The majority of the time, there's a way.

---------

LadyDove, I'm not sure what you mean.

*thinks* You mean, is it mistaken to arrange things with an enticing activity in order to get them together.

What if the point is the activity? I mean, I like people, but I don't do this in general. I want to go to the museum, and I'm guessing other people will as well, and it seems like a nice way to make lots of people happy.

------

At this point, I calmed down, sent her his e-mail address, am looking forward to the museum, and have discovered she has no memory of meeting me at all. *sigh* Which is another issue, I suppose, but I definitely know it wasn't personal.

[ December 10, 2003, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
...

Wow, Kat. It must be really hard to be you.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
You're right Kat, I'm firm believer in the idea that there's always a solution, but if the point is that I'm normally too tired for big interaction (I'm one of those people who can easily get worn out by a social stuff) then chances are I'm going to just plain not come, and if my options are A) Ask the host(ess) whose coming and risk offending him/her or B) Just not come, I'd rather do A. Especially if it was an oppurtunity too meat a groovy person like yourself.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 

quote:

---

Wow, Kat. It must be really hard to be you.

---

Uh, thanks. You make it worth it, though.

--------

Hobbes: Okay.

[ December 10, 2003, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
What I'm saying Kat is that if I have to go to a whole bunch of work just to determine if I have the energy to really make it worth going or not I would probably just say no, which hardly seems to fair to either of us.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Okay.

See, and my default is, if I like the host, to say yes.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
And I think that's the fundemental difference, I, along with many other people, are not always up to it. I just don't want you to assume that it's a comment about you when someone asks that, like I said, you're groovy.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
 
it may be your default, but it would not work very well for a lot of people.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I'm content with the way I am.

------

Thanks, Hobbesy. *grin*

------

People are weird. Good to know.
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 
If I like the host(ess), I'll come if I'm the only person invited . But if others are to come as well, I need to consider them too. You know?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Actually, no. You're a guest. You don't get to pass judgement on the other guests.

I'm am realizing that I am assuming a position of strength - that every person has the ability to take care of themselves, and the only question is whether or not they're willing to share themselves with others. The idea that some sharees are more acceptable others rankles for some reason. I mean, you're not hitching a star or marrying them - it's one event. After that one event or so, I'd know them well enough to not be offended by the question.

[ December 10, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 
I won't tell the person who they should be inviting. But I have the right to pass judgment on other guests, even though I don't voice it.

[ December 10, 2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Kama ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Okay, yeah, I don't like that.

If I've invited them, I've decided to be friends with them for some reason. They appeal to part of me.

I guess there is a feeling of "love me, love my friends" here. I don't like the judging thing.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
Okay, I have to say, I've found this thread both fascinating and totally baffling. The first thing I want to know, after I figure out that I'm available and would like to go, is who else is coming. I always ask, it wouldn't occur to me not to. My friends always ask me right away when I'm hosting.

For me, and my friends I think, it's not so much a matter of trying to avoid certain individuals, though I've certainly done so in the past and would totally understand if a friend of mine was very uncomfortable around another friend. Mostly, it's just natural curiosity. "What will we be doing?" "When does it start?" "Who else is coming?"

Like others have posted, there's also the element of mental preparation for the event. I like to know what to expect when I go somewhere new and different, and part of that is knowing who or what kind of people will be there. Artsy people? Laid-back sports fans? Coworkers? Couples? Is it a huge gathering where I'll be lost in the crowd, or an intimate little group? So many things I like to know!

So no, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to ask this usually quite innocent question. I do, however, find it unreasonable to assume that all of your acquaintances share the exact same views of social situations and interpersonal relationships as their host/ess, and force them into this mold.

People are different. It's a good thing. It makes parties fun. You just have to be understanding of these different personalities when you're hosting a big get-together.
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 

quote:

---

Actually, no. You're a guest. You don't get to pass judgement on the other guests.

---

quote:

---

I guess there is a feeling of "love me, love my friends" here.

---

Surely it's possible to have an opinion about one of your friends that has nothing to do with you.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*shakes head*

If they are a friend of mine, you don't have to like them, you don't have to invite them to your house, you don't have to be a friend yourself, but it means there's something good about them, so you can't dismiss them.

-----

ALR: I realize not everyone thinks this way. I think it explains a lot about the world. But I still don't like it.

I also think there is a tremendous, tremendous difference between asking a close friend who else will be there and asking a stranger. It's a question that needs a basis of trust that doesn't exist for strangers.

[ December 10, 2003, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 
Yes, but there can be something (even much) good about people who are totally repelling to me, and who I cannot stand.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Hmm... Then find the good and stick to that.
 

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Posted by ladyday (Member # 1069) on :
 
. There's nothing wrong or weird about not liking to go to get togethers for whatever reason. I don't see what there is to not like or disagree with or take offense to; some people just aren't like that. People who are uncomfortable with spending an evening with strangers are not weak, unable to take care of themselves, immature, ill adjusted, or just plain mean.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 

quote:

---

ALR: I realize not everyone thinks this way. I think it explains a lot about the world.

---

That seems to have a pretty negative tone... as though this way people see others explains why the world can be so rotten sometimes. Am I reading that wrong?

I'll say it again, I don't think there's anything wrong with the question. Especially if the motivation is simply curiosity, which I think it usually is. I do, however, think it's wrong to demand that everyone see the world exactly as you see it, with no room for those who simply don't get along with everyone. I don't get along with everyone! Some people annoy me! Some I find unpleasant in social situations, despite the fact that they are wonderful parents, excellent employees, or otherwise great members of society. I don't think this makes me, or anyone else who doesn't enjoy the company of every single other human on this planet, some kind of deviant.

It's the other things that make me a deviant.
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 

quote:

---

Hmm... Then find the good and stick to that.

---

quote:

---

It's a question that needs a basis of trust that doesn't exist for strangers.

---

This makes little to no sense from my frame of reference. It makes far more sense to ask such a question of a stranger, since you have no reason to trust that they will invite people you'll want to be around, or at least that they will not invite people you're trying to avoid. Meanwhile, you have a much better idea of who your friends will invite. The only way it makes sense to me not to take offense at a stranger asking such a question (after all, since he/she is a stranger, why do I care what he/she thinks?) is if I suspect that the person is trying to screw me over. And if I already have reason to suspect that this stranger is untrustworthy and conniving enough to screw me over, why am I inviting him/her?
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 
Exactly. Why?

Let me use the example of my friend's boyfriend again. He thinks I'm an idiot. He irritates me to no end. Why should I try and look for good sides in him, when I can just avoid him? There are situations, when I'm invited to an important event - a birthday party, a wedding, where I won't ask who else is going to be there, because I think I'm going there to please my friend, not myself. But if it's just about hanging out, I'm supposed to have fun as well. And so I'll avoid situations where I'm bound not to have fun.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Not to dogpile you Kat, but I just wanteed to bring up a scenerio. I have a friend who just plain can't handle get togethers. He dislikes being around two other people at the same time, and absolutly refuses to go to partys. It's the way he is, he just doesn't really like social get togethers. If you invite someone like him some where and don't tell them that there are many people coming I think it's understandble that they would be mighty ticked. So people ask. Not always for the same reasons, but not all of us can handle what the host(ess) has put together and just plain need to know before hand. I also agree with Ayelar, I'd like to be prepared. If we're just getting together with some close friends then that's one thing, but if we're meeting the TV sophistos who are flying out from Hollywood I'd have to be mentally prepared for that or I'd be in a bad mood all night.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I think y'all're wrong.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Even me?

Seriously though, it's just plain true, not knowing what to except at a party will throw me for the whole night and then I'm just plain no fun to be around. I'm like that, I need to be prepared.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 

quote:

---

I think y'all're wrong.

---

::shrug:: OK.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Shouldn't that be "all y'all" seeing as how it's plural?



Hobbes
 

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Posted by ladyday (Member # 1069) on :
 
It's fine that you think we're wrong. What stings for me is being judged as inferior.

Really, I'm somewhat boggled at the idea that a person's personality type can be "wrong". I mean, isn't your whole point that you like people and have a desire to hear their stories? Of course you said you hated people in your first post, so maybe I'm confused.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
I agree with ladyday.... I've also gotten a "you're weird and inferior" vibe off of this thread. It's part of what baffles me when the message is ostensibly that we should be wholeheartedly accepting of those around us.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
ladyday, I'm sorry.

I think the above attitude hurts people. In fact, I know it does.

Example: There are an enormous number of people at church, and there are social things all the time. About half are socially fine and tend to run and host things, and their friends attend. The other half come because there's a general invite, and for whatever reason, these are not as confident, loud, or socially-comfortable as other people.

So about half the people are fine, and the other half go home defeated.

Maybe this is tinged a bit by being mixed up in church activities - although this going to the museum isn't one - but I do know that the general feeling of making sure you're the one who is having fun ends up with other people hurt, and yeah, I think it's wrong. No one should feel like that.

People are responsible for themselves whether or not they have a nice time - because there's always someone to talk to or a story to hear - but it doesn't help to have a party be the equivalent of an interview, or a pageant, or a decathlon, or any of the other situations where you're judged. I don't like it. It hurts people.

Maybe it doesn't apply in this case - since it isn't a church thing. But then, I don't see why that feeling has to be limited to church activities. There's a whole world of people, and if you like the host and want to do the activity, yeah, I think it's wrong to decide not to go because the other guests are not your type of people.

*raises hands* My opinion.

I don't think anyone is inferior. I love you all, and I trust Hatrack enough to be a place to share this particular life zephyr.

[ December 10, 2003, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Beca (Member # 4340) on :
 
I generally ask who else will be there as a favor to the host. Why? Because most people don't know that I sometimes have panic attacks at parties where I'm surrounded by strangers. Most of the time, these just involve my being very quiet and looking scared, but sometimes they turn into horrible, scary, tearful, show-stopping scenes. I haven't had one in a very long time, but this is mostly because I'm careful to make sure I know at least a few people at any party I attend. It has nothing to do with the event itself, or the individual people at the party - it has to do with me and my ability to deal with strangers in social situations. But while they may be friends to you, they are strangers to me, and I don't want to ruin your party.

So I ask. There are lots of flavors of shy people out there, and I am only one of them.

Also, not talking to people you don't get along with is not always an option. Sometimes the reason you don't get along with them is that they Won't Leave You Alone. They may not show this side of themselves to the host, or anyone else. Frankly, I'd rather not go to the party than make an issue of their behavior toward me. This applies to Scary Exes, Political Enemies, and Slimey Uncles/Business Associates.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
I think part of my disconnect with this POV is the belief that judging other people is automatically and inherently a Bad Thing to do. I don't think it is, I think it's a perfectly normal and healthy thing to decide that you like person X a lot more than person Y, and would rather spend more time with person X.

Now, judging someone before you meet them or know anything about them, that's silly. However, I don't feel that asking who or how many people will be coming means that the person is pre-judging anyone, but merely trying to get a feel for what the event will be like. Or, perhaps, acting on their pre-existing judgment of someone who may also be invited, which I also think is valid.

But, in general, I think that everyone has the right to decide that they aren't as happy around person Y as they are around person X. That's their decision to make, and the fact that they made such a decision is no reason to consider them a hurtful villain.

[ December 10, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Ayelar ]
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 

quote:

---

because there's always someone to talk to or a story to hear

---

quote:

---

I think part of my disconnect with this POV is the belief that judging other people is automatically and inherently a Bad Thing to do. I don't think it is, I think it's a perfectly normal and healthy thing to decide that you like person X a lot more than person Y, and would rather spend more time with person X.

Now, judging someone before you meet them or know anything about them, that's silly. However, I don't feel that asking who or how many people will be coming means that the person is pre-judging anyone, but merely trying to get a feel for what the event will be like. Or, perhaps, acting on their pre-existing judgment of someone who may also be invited, which I also think is valid.

But, in general, I think that everyone has the right to decide that they aren't as happy around person Y as they are around person X. That's their decision to make, and the fact that they made such a decision is no reason to consider them a hurtful villain.

---

This is correct.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I'm going to make the title more specific, I think. If the host is a friend, do whatever you want.

It's rude to ask when you don't the host well, because it implies that the event may or may not be to your satisfaction. Now, it may or may not, but you don't get to play out your judgement on ears of a stranger offering hospitality.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
I think the main issue here is not whether people ought to judge others or not.

It's that most people are NOT comfortable with a roomful of strangers. Personally, I'd rather stay home and read a book than go out and be social.

However, when the social event is important to a friend (wedding, bar mitzvah, etc.) or a way to get to see friends I don't get to see as much as I'd like (which these days, is most everyone I know ), or there is some other compelling reason, I go. But it's something I have to push myself to do, even so.

That's not to say I don't usually enjoy myself once I get there -- I almost always do. That's part of why I make myself go, and even arrange get togethers with friends sometimes.

Surprisingly enough to many people who know me, I'm very shy. I tend to overcompensate for that, which I'm aware of, and that (naturally) makes me more self-conscious.

kat, I'd go to lunch or whatever with you anytime. And if you wanted to bring a friend or two I hadn't met, I could handle that. But as soon as it gets to a ratio of 3 or 4 people I don't know for every person I do, I'm likely to feel uncomfortable enough at the very idea to likely bow out -- unless there's some compelling reason to do otherwise.
 

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Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
 
kat, would you be upset if they asked you what the event was going to involve activity wise? Like if you invited someone to go out with you and your friends, would you be offended if they asked what you were going to do? Or would you consider it a fairly reasonable question of a person who wanted to know what to expect of an evening.

Because who you're going to do a thing with is just as important as what you're going to be doing to some people-so why should they not ask, so they can know what they're agreeing to or not?

And why does it matter so much if they don't know you? If they don't know you, wouldn't they be more likely to be unsure about whether they would enjoy themselves or not?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Toretha, it's okay.

----------

See, now this is part of why I love Hatrack. I just don't have these kinds of conversations with RL people. Hatrack makes me question my own assumptions - assumptions so basic, I didn't realize they weren't universal.

rivka, that totally makes sense. And I completely respect that.

*thinks* You know, it isn't that I am always comfortable - it's that I am always uncomfortable. Being around people - no matter how well I know them - is a little uncomfortable for me. Heck, being around most of my family makes me skittish. Hanging out at a movie with my buddies from high school makes me slightly jumpy. It's a constant, low-level burn. I'm almost ALWAYS a touch uncomfortable. Strangers are actually easier to deal with than people I know only moderately well.

It doesn't matter. I do it anyway, and enjoy myself. I'm much, much better at one-on-one conversations with people, but I love being at the edge of large groups. I like talking to people, I like their stories, I like different personalities, and I like watching the dynamics of interaction. I think that's why the idea of being rude because of maybe being uncomfortable doesn't seem to fly with me - it's a given. By some twist of fate/aligning of the stars/quirk of the Lord's sense of humor, I'm an extrovert who gets skittish around people.

And part of the reason I absolutely adore Southern California is that rivka and LadyDove really did make me feel so comfortable right off the bat. It was an unusual, startling, and marvelous experience. *hug*

[ December 10, 2003, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Coccinelle (Member # 5832) on :
 
so kat, who IS going to houston? *grins* Maybe I can come if there are enough people to make it worth my while.

really though- just to add my two cents, I think it's rude to ask who's going before I agree to go to most events, however, I do like to know who's going just because it makes me feel more comfortable and I can prepare myself for the situation. If it's someone I'm well acquinted with, I can usually guess who will be attending the shingdig.

But...if it's a major thing (like three hours in the car with someone) I can understand asking the question. There are a few people I know that I wouldn't want to be stuck with in a car for three hours.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*grin* Brandon Bailey, just maybe, that's who. I think he shaves on Sunday morning, so by Saturday afternoon, he should have five days of scruff. Now that's incentive.
 

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Posted by Coccinelle (Member # 5832) on :
 
woo! woo! maybe I can rearrange my schedule after all
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Oh, that would be awesome. Micah's coming. I've been feeding him mathemetician jokes.
 

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Posted by Coccinelle (Member # 5832) on :
 
mathematician bribery... that's the way to go!
 

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Posted by Ophelia (Member # 653) on :
 
I don't care about the who else--when are you coming to Houston?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*whoop* Ophelia!

December 20 - the MoMA exhibit. Do you want to meet us there?

*points to Coccinelle* This is my friend here in Dallas. It looks like she's coming. Everyone I know well who is coming is nice, I swear. The ones I don't know well seem, at the least, quite interesting.
 

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Posted by Ophelia (Member # 653) on :
 
Drat! I leave for Michigan this weekend.

I'll just have to make it up to Dallas sometime next semester or something. (I was there briefly in November for a band trip, but it was so tightly scheduled that I hardly had time to sleep, let alone meet up.)
 

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Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
 
kat, I'd like to apologize for having been so sharp in this thread. I've just read back over it, and I've been kinda antagonistic, and I'm sorry.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Ophelia:

Oh, crumb.

You know, I have aunts in Houston that I don't get to see often enough. It would be very cool and very easy for me to come for a weekend - maybe sometime in February?

Toretha:

It's totally okay. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I know being around strangers can be hard.

[ December 10, 2003, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Interesting, kat -- I also have the "low-level burn" phenomenon. Although I would never have thought to put it in those terms. But I find it much less uncomfortable to be around people who I know well than people I don't.

I think maybe because they're more likely to cut me slack and not get upset if (hah! when) I say something I should have bitten back or somesuch.

One of the things I like about fora and e-mail (it's much less true of chat) is the ability to edit what I say before I post/send. (And on Hatrack, I have the added insurance of being able to delete stuff I realize a minute later I absolutely should not have posted.)
 

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Posted by Ophelia (Member # 653) on :
 
I should be around all of February.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Cool.
 

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Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
 
Hmmm. These are thorny issues.

I am a shy person. I've been that way since I was a child. My mother put me into performing arts in the hopes that I would learn to overcome my shyness. I did and I still do. It is not something that has ever left me, but I overcome it with increasing ease as I get older. It used to take me anywhere from an 30 minutes to an hour to work up enough nerve to be social. Now it takes me about 5 minutes. I know exactly how hard it can be to talk to people in a room full of strangers. I know how crummy it feels when no one talks to you and you can't work up the courage to talk to anyone yourself. Believe me, I've been there.

But I've always viewed it as my problem. Certainly the host of whatever gathering I'd been invited to had an obligation to try to make me as comfortable as possible, but beyond introductions (as in, "This is Kira, my friend from Georgia, she hates the Amercian version of What Not to Wear, too..."), the rest is up to me. If I mumble hello and stare at my feet, I understand if this makes the other person uncomfortable. Some people are skilled at bringing people out of their shells and some are not.

My best friend of more than 14 years is also shy. I noticed a Save the Whales sticker on her Bio book and she had hair down to her knees, so I thought she was a hippy and I thought that was cool. I decided to strike up a conversation when the bell rang. It was not a success.

Kira: Are you into save the whales?
Cara [in a flat, you're-an-idiot tone]: No. It came with the book. [points to giant yellow USED sticker]
Kira: Oh. Sorry. [beats a hasty retreat]

She thought I thought she was a witch and I thought she thought I was a moron. Since she was my maid of honor 11 years later, we both obviously overcame our shyness with each other. And it was definitely worth it.

What helps me to quickly overcome my shyness or to forget it immediately (like for faculty gatherings where my charm has to be an asset to Andrew's career) is to think of the event as a performance. That helps give me the mental distance to get past the initial nervousness.

As to asking who will be there, I would only do it with a very close friend. And I don't phrase it, "Who else is coming?" I usually say, "Will anyone else I know be there?" or "Is so-and-so coming?" or "What kind of crowd is it going to be?" To be perfectly honest, I usually ask what everyone will be wearing. I think the girl's phrasing was inappropriate and I think there's a very good chance that she was fishing for info on Kate's guy friend.

That was pretty clear to me and I was thinking that it's a Southern thing. Where I'm from, it's taboo to come right out and ask if the person you're interested in will be at a gathering. You hint (with degrees of subtlety, depending on how well you know the person you're hinting to), but that is it. If you are talking to another Southern person, she will catch on and either give you the info or very deliberately not. You can also gauge, based on her reaction, how she feels about your interest in this dude. It may seem like Machiavellian double-speak to non-Southerners, but it's as clear as day to us.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
I wouldn't last 5 minutes in the South.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Yay! Mrs. M, you stated my feelings beautifully and precisely.

And yes, she's after the guy. I'm officially irritated.
 

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Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
 
This is an interesting thread. When reading it, I found that I agreed with at least something in almost everybody's posts. I do believe that the question "who else is going to be there?" in some situations can be rude and/or hurtful, and I also agree that, depending on several factors, it can be perfectly alright to ask. There are at least three variables to consider: 1) the degree of acquaintance between the inviter and invitee, 2) at which stage of the acceptance procedure the question is asked and 3) the (perceived) reason for the inquiry.

If you are secure in your friendship with someone whom you ask (or is asked by) to attend a social function, to me it's pretty much OK to ask about whatever you or she want to know. It is already established to you like to spend time in the company with each other and the presumption is therefore that the question is simply curiosity (or any other benign reason). Even if you or she decides not to attend based on the information provided, it does not (necessarily) affect your relationship because there were factors unrelated to your friendship that were decisive.

Perfect strangers are a category for themself. First, if they ARE rude it's pretty easy to dismiss it because you have not much emotion invested in them liking you and wanting to attend your function (unless you are really insecure). Secondly, the question is usually pretty understandable: they don't know you and wanting to know something of what to expect is natural. They can be forgiven asking the question before giving an affirmative answer to the invitation. There are of course more polite ways to put it, such as "what kind of function is it?" and "will I know anyone else?" Also, the accommodating host provides these kinds of details on his own before expecting the guest to accept.

There are however a third category where the issue is more delicate. During the last year I've met a few new people whom I admire and would like to be my friends. I think they are my friends, but I'm not yet secure in my knowledge of what they think of me. If I called them and asked whether they wanted to come to a party at my place (which I wouldn't do, but that's another issue) I would be hurt if they responded by asking who else would be there. Whether right or wrong, some part of me would suspect that the reason for asking was that they would not be entirely comfortable or enjoy themselves in my company and needed the presence of someone else as a buffer. I want to be friends with them so much that I would attend their parties regardless of the additional company, and I would want to think it's mutual. Now, enthusiastic agreement to come BEFORE asking the question would do a lot alleviate my suspicion but, depending on the circumstances, perhaps not entirely. I would therefore consider it rude to ask.

I've been involuntarily guilty of this faux pas myself. A guy from my choir made some efforts to become friends with me. He's been suggesting we'd do some stuff together and called me a couple of times. As it played out, I happened to be busy every time. However, he rang and invited me to some sort of birthday get together. Me, being thrown by the phone ringing and all, did not get him at first and thought it was someone else's party. Finding that kind of strange (but feeling guilty for being unable to attend the previously suggested activities, I did not want to dismiss it outright) I asked who else would be there. When the misunderstanding had been cleared up (it was his party, but held at his girlfriend's mother's apartment) I felt really rude for having asked the question. Here was a guy trying to become friends with me and I had indicated that I wasn't interested in spending time with him unless there were people there I already knew.

Of course, there are plenty of legitimate reasons for wanting to know who else will be attending a social gathering. If I knew that A wouldn't come because B would be there, I wouldn't be offended in the least (although I would perhaps consider it a bit strange). If someone were intensely uncomfortable among big crowds, well then I'd hope to hang out with her in another setting. However, if you want to avoid being rude to someone you'd best make certain that you communicate properly that the reason why you hesitate to provide an unequivocal "yes" to the invitation has nothing to do with the host as a person or your wish to develop a friendship with him or her.

[ December 11, 2003, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Tristan ]
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Why does it seem like this thread title keeps getting longer?
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 

quote:

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I was thinking that it's a Southern thing

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quote:

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so well how do i put this without starting gossip, um.. im a guy so, we tend
to do things for girls when it comes to this stuff, lets face it us guys are
so easy sometimes, i know its the whats in it for me thing, but it really
is, unless of course it was a basketball game or something then i just dont
care who goes.. and im sure you may be reversing the roles and asking who
was going before committing if it was actually a basketball game.

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quote:

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unless of course it was a basketball game or something then i just dont
care who goes.. and im sure you may be reversing the roles and asking who was going before committing if it was actually a basketball game.

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This is what I was talking about.

For me, the important thing is the fellowship, not the event.

I think it is just as "rude" or just as common sense to ask " what are we going to do" as "who is going to be there".
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Ayelar, don't sweat it. It is NOT impolite to ask who else will be attending when invited to an event.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
Okay, now, wait....

•You organize big events and trips.

•You invite a lot of people that don't necessarily know you very well, and probably don't know a lot of other people there.

•Can I assume that many of them are young, single Mormons? Or that they're at least young and single?

•The groups are co-ed.

•The events and trips involve lots of getting to know each other in a non-threatening environment for a good amount of time.

And you're not a dating service?



(Honestly, kat, I'm not trying to offend you, and I'll take this down if it does, but I find this absolutely baffling. It's totally outside of my realm of understanding.)
 

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Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
 
Kat, I'm evil, so I would send the email address and blatantly call her on her manipulation.

"So, you want to get to know Brandon better, eh? "

Then she knows that you know, and she'll stop beating around the bush.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
No, I'm not. I want to go to the museum, dangit, and there's a bunch of people that I know without family in town who might possibly be having a crummy holiday season and might also want to go to museum. That's what the whole purpose is. That's it. I'm not hunting, and I'm not dangling my friends as bait. If they don't want to go to the museum, then don't go!

Because that's really what will be happening. A trip to the museum, some food gathering, and coming back home.

Jenny: *grin* That's what I did.

[ December 11, 2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
 

quote:

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Ayelar, don't sweat it. It is NOT impolite to ask who else will be attending when invited to an event.

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quote:

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That's what classy means - class is the art of handling difficult situations in a manner that offends no one and non-intrusively making those around you pleased and comfortable.

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class=being a doormat?

What if the host is someone who is quick to take offense, and will fault the guest for something that they honestly thought was an innocent question? Is the guest the classless one?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Nope. Not rude. Rude is saying you'll come, then asking around to find out who's coming and then coming up with a convenient excuse to back out at the last moment.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Ayelar, it's tacky. You can choose to reject the standard or you can accept the standard and do it anyway, but the standard still says it's tacky.

[ December 11, 2003, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
Who comes up with the standards? Why is this the first time I've ever heard of this particular standard, on an international internet forum?
 

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Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
 
Tom- You're my hero today.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
I mean, heck, if your goal as a classy host is to make everyone as comfortable as possible, shouldn't it be your duty to ensure that they DO know who's coming? So that the large number of shy and socially awkward people out there will be put at ease?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*raises hands* Maybe it is a Southern thing.

*thinks* Maybe it's linked to some sort of hospitality meme?

[ December 11, 2003, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
ALR, I'm not sure what you want me to say.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Let's put it this way: when I go out with a group, part of the reason I go out with that particular group is because I like them. If I DON'T like them, I'd go out with a DIFFERENT group.

In the same way, part of the reason I do things is because I like to do things. If someone were to invite me out next Monday, I would ask something like "What did you have in mind to do," and if they said, "I figured we'd catch an indoor tractor pull," I'd politely decline. This is not rude; it saves both of us the awkwardness of dealing with me when I'm bored and dismissive of the activity in question.

In the same way, if someone says, "a bunch of us are going to go out drinking tomorrow," a seriously relevant question is "who, exactly, composes 'us' in this situation?" Since this is going to be a major factor in the event itself, it seems as logical a question as "when are you getting together" and "which bar?"
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Right. So you're saying that some associates of the person asking may not be acceptable to you.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
Say you're sending me $500 in the mail?

Come on, I could really use it!



I don't really want you to say anything in particular, though I am a bit miffed by your assumption that these things that I happen to do make me classless and rude... but it's a very small miff.

Mostly, I'm really interested in this discussion about different etiquette norms, and I'd like to see it continue. In particular, I'd like to know your thoughts on my idea that a truly "classy" host would be obligated to let his or her guests know who was coming, since that would make most of them more happy and comfortable.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
What if you're the first one invited? "Maybe I'll come, if you can round up some people I'd like."

No, a truly classy host has the judgement to assemble a guestlist that will both be alike enough to get along and different enough to provide some jolt. If you question the guestlist, you're questioning your host.

[ December 11, 2003, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Sure am. And that's not rude. It's realistic.

Is it better to go along and be miserable than be honest about one's preferred company? It seems to me that the goal of civility is to minimize discomfort.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 

quote:

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Right. So you're saying that some associates of the person asking may not be acceptable to you.

---

Absolutely. Am I required to love all of my friends' friends? If so, I'm going to have to lose a lot of my friends!
 

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Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
 
When you invite someone to an event, most often it is because of that person's relationship to YOU. You like this person and want to spend time with him or her. Naturally you hope the feelings are reciprocated. Stating that you won't come unless a particular person or persons will also be there strikes me as extremely rude. You are basically saying that you don't like me enough to come because of me but still want to take advantage of my hospitality to meet someone else.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Y'all seem awfully concerned with your own personal comfort.

You dislike so many people your friends are close to? You don't have to be best friends with them, but for some reason they appeal to your friend. Saying you don't like implies you don't like the part of your friends those friends appeal to.

And yes, telling your friend that part of them is unacceptable to you and you prefer to not be made aware of it is both tacky and not very good of a friend.

[ December 11, 2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
 
Sadly, sometimes that is true. If you're all going out, and I know that someone will be there who acts like an almost-stalker, I really won't want to go. You might not even know about it, as the hostess. Or, if I know that certain people bring out the bad side of me (like the Wenches, getting me to think innuendos ), perhaps I would not go and expose myself to temptation.

[ December 11, 2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Jenny Gardener ]
 

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Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
 
Not coming because someone you don't like will be there is a lot more acceptable than the opposite, I think.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Kat, that very question -- "what do you say if you're the first person invited" -- is always the hard part when you're invited to or throwing a party, in my experience.

After all, if I tell people I'm throwing, say, a birthday party, the first guy I ask is almost certainly going to ask who's going to be there and what we're doing. Realistically, that's just because -- no matter how much he likes me -- it's going to be a lame party if only a small handful of lame people show up and do nothing all night. So I ask a bunch of people at once, or some very good friends FIRST, and run from there.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Well in the case of going out to a bar it isn't even necessarily acceptable or unacceptable but more of, what level of responsibility am I going to have on this expedition?

A) you need at least one designated driver to drive everybody home, and if other friends are less responsible or trustworthy the task falls on you.

B) If you want to drink, possibly excessively you need to know that someone else will scrape you off the floor and drive you home.

C) you need to know how on your guard or not on your guard you need to be, if there are persons who would perhaps take advantage of you there, and if there are other persons who have your back.

In fact except for the designated driver thing, I would say that this applies to most outings.

AJ
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
It wouldn't be so hard if people weren't rude about it.
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 

quote:

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Y'all seem awfully concerned with your own personal comfort.

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quote:

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I'm floored by two things in this thread. . . . The second is the amount of passion it is bringing up.

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quote:

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No, saxon, but that's not the only scenario possible. Mrs. M. shared some lovely alternatives earlier.

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quote:

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Now, if I could just get them to stop sending invites that get flagged as spam...

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I'm reasonably certain that Evite sells email addresses to spammers. I went several months at my new email address without a single spam email showing up, but a day after my wife sent me an evite there I started getting it.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
Yeah, saxon, I kinda figured they did. We use people's throwaway addresses.

I wonder if there's anything similar out there that isn't quite as slimy?

Edit: Yeah, I see there are a few others. We'll try them out next time...

[ December 11, 2003, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Ayelar ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Saxon, I feel like I keep inadvertently offending you. That's the last thing in the world I would ever want to do.

I think we can agree that different regions have different social expectations. My internal expectations come from a combination of my Southern mother and Jane Austen novels. The Jane Austen bits I've tried to exorcise (no matter how fitting they sometimes feel), and the rest is protesting in this thread.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 

quote:

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Saxon, I feel like I keep inadvertently offending you. That's the last thing in the world I would ever want to do.

---

kat, I have to ask... are you intentionally not mentioning the several other people, myself included, who have repeatedly said they felt offended by this thread? I don't really mind, I'm just surprised that you worded it this way.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
No, this is just the second I've done it, and I thought I needed to address that.

No, I don't mean to offend anyone! I seriously, seriously did not think I would find so much disagreement. If I'd had any idea, I wouldn't have brought it up. And I've never been treated with anything except kindness, hospitality, and openness by Hatrackers at anything I've been to or been invited to. I can't wait for WenchCon - it's going to wonderful.

I seriously think it's a culture clash. Now I know y'all don't get offended by people asking, and you know that I do. It's all okay.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
Okay, I just thought it was a little odd, what with me repeatedly saying I felt slighted and offended, that I was being called "classless", "tacky", and "rude" and felt insulted by it, and not hearing a word of apology, but saxon is singled out for a big apology.

Is offending me, Aja, the "last thing in the world you'd ever want to do"? Or do you like saxon better than me? Cause, I mean, it's totally fine to like anyone more than you like me, and I would definitely understand why... but wouldn't that kind of go against what you've been arguing here? And to so pointedly apologize to him and specifically not me, wouldn't that be a little tacky and rude? Or am I just reading too much into this?



If you and I were both invited to a small gathering by a mutual friend, and you knew that I had the intention of pestering you and provoking you into arguments all night, would you suck it up and go? Or would you politely decline, knowing that I would make the evening an unpleasant one for you, despite our shared friendship with the host?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Is that what you're doing now?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Um, Ayelar, you're making a bigger deal out of this than it needs to be....*ducks*
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Acually Tom, on this one I disagree. Ayelar made a lot of statments on this thread and Kat didn't respond to any of them. Kat didn't respond to any of Ayelar's ideas until she made it a big deal.

Now admittedly it is Kat's peroggative to what she responds to and what she doesn't. Kat tends to respond to things that touch a chord with her personally, and not discuss the rest. I don't think Kat was deliberately ignoring Ayelar, but I can see how Ayelar felt snubbed and left out of the conversation, because she was left out.

Exactly like a face to face social setting in a way.

AJ

[ December 11, 2003, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
I'm definitely not trying to make a big deal out of this. I don't want to attack kat, honestly!

However, I feel like I'm experiencing an inconsistency with kat's stated views on social relationships, tactfulness, and civility, and I'm curious enough about it to want to know if she's coming across that way.

I really don't want this to be taken personally; it's not for me, despite the insults. However, I am willing to risk the appearance of being provocative to see what the answers to my questions are.

I found kat's responses and curious lack of responses to me somewhat rude. I certainly don't think she was being rude intentionally, or that she would in any way want to offend me. Nevertheless, she did, and since this is a discussion about what is polite and what is rude, I thought it was relevant. I also have a general suspicion that kat doesn't particularly like me (which would be perfectly reasonable and natural), but, if so, makes for an interesting and relevant example when we're discussing unconditionally liking people.

Is it possible to question someone so personally in an academic, rather than attacking, manner? Is there some other way I could be phrasing this?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Ayelar, I don't dislike you. I'm sorry that you have felt that way. I'm glad you're here, and I'm sorry you felt slighted in the thread. I didn't respond for exactly the reasons AJ suspected - I just answered the things that hit a chord. I like this being a "social customs" discussion thread, so if you'd like to work out a disagreement, I'd be happy to do that in e-mail.

[ December 12, 2003, 01:54 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
 
This is laughable. Here we have Saxon75 and Katharina, two of easiest to get along with hatrackers I know- arguing almostvisciously, here we have Ayelar, sounding offended while trying not to sound offended, Tom D. trying to play peacemaker in an argument he basically started with his blunt statements. And AJ's statement "Kat tends to respond to things that touch a chord with her personally, and not discuss the rest." reminds me of somebody... oh, I know now: everybody.

Stay in character, folks, Mr. Rogers likes you just the way you are
As far as the topic goes, let's face it, it's a hard call. Generally speaking, to most people, it's really not a very important issue anyway. So were it possible, kat, I'd say you should try not to be offended, because it's indeed likely that no offense is intended. If it's not though, I think one of the more basic things to think about is how you deliver the invite; I mean, for example, if you mention a specific group of people or whatever that the invitee is not particularly involved with, then it may be not exactly polite, but personally I don't really blame them for asking who all will be there. Also, as has been mentioned but is contrary to what Kat was originally talking about, between good friends who are comfortable with their relations it doesn't really much matter.
For some reason, I am completely unable to accept the idea that you folks do not have the imagination to see that such behavior could in fact, in some situations, be horribly rude. For if delivered and taken the wrong way, under the wrong circumstances, this behavior could do exactly what Kat feels that it does, to make a person feel as if they are only valuable as a tool. I'm certain no one who's posted on this thread would do this purposefully (and prob'ly not on accident either) but it is something everyone should be careful about. I definitely think you should consider the paerticular situation before asking "who else is coming"?
That's the whole trouble here, there is no argument, because every situation is different.
 

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Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
 
If y'all want to know the update, every person who asked who else was coming before answering is not, and every person who said "Sure, that'd be awesome," is.

At this point, I'm thinking I should take it personally, but not worry about it. I'm not trying to become a hostess (I don't have the temperament); I'm trying to get people together who have common interests and, frankly, who like me. On the other hand, if they don't, they either (1) don't know me well enough and aren't "take a chance" kind of people, or (2) obviously have something wrong with them. Either way, I'm okay.

--katharina

[ December 18, 2003, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 
sun, the first paragraph of your post was totally unnecessary.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Did it just work out that way, kat, or did you retract the invitation to the people who asked? If it's the latter, how did you handle it? I wouldn't have any idea how to do something like that.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
kat,

I love your new screen name. I didn't realize you were Javert Hugo. I think Les Miserables is an amazing book and Javert is a really interesting character.

Sorry those people "dissed" you. I hope you just got caught up in the moment and enjoyed the people who did come, and didn't give the others a second thought.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Yeah, I had no idea you were Javert either. It is a cool name.
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
kat, of course you are right. It's really tacky and rude to ask your hostess who else will be there, as though you were afraid of being bored. I think what did happen is the best thing that could happen: that those who asked didn't come.

I think when asked that question I would just be vague and say, "oh some people I expect you will like." If they persist I would just blandly reword my answer however many times it took, like this.

"But who, exactly?"
"Several friends."
"What friends?"
"Some people I've asked."
"Who did you ask?"
"Some other friends."

etc., keeping my voice completely bland.
 

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Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
 
Anne Kate, that's passive aggressive though. I'm not going to duck around it.

What happened. Well, the first girl (the one that prompted the thread - who couldn't remember meeting me) had Christmas stuff to do. That's totally fine. I believe her. Heck, she doesn't even remember me. That's fine. I'm not offended. I did give her Brandon's e-mail address, and am officially neutral about everything. She did mention she was going the next weekend, and I'm going down the next weekend as well, and I sort of left it open for her to invite me to meet them that day, but I haven't heard anything, so it's fine.

I think it's part of the Daisy Buchanan phenomenon - when you're established and happy, it's just easier not to worry about it. I'm even sympathetic to it. Heck, I've DONE that. One of my most shameful memories is of being seven years old and telling a girl I didn't want to be friends, because I already had a friend and didn't need another. That memory is probably why I'm so sensitive about it now - I was a truly barbaric child, and everything that came later was definitely some sort of divine justice. On the other hand, I was SEVEN.

The second one - the guy whose idiotic e-mail is excerpted above - I wrote back and didn't say who was coming. I did say that if he didn't enjoy museums, he probably wouldn't have fun. I don't feel bad about that - he was/is very obvious that he has no desire for my personal company but doesn't mind coming to things that I have because he likes some of the people that I like. The only positive thing he's ever said to me was wondering how I got so many guys to come to a party once and congratulating me on it. Since it wasn't a performance, that annoyed me all the way around. Anyway, coming on top of the "people with sick moms are such drags" conversation, I'm close to giving up. The only reason I haven't is because some sort of devil inside me thinks continuing to try will be funnier.

I need an adventure. *thinks*
 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
I don't think it's passive aggressive. I think it's politely declining to do something someone shouldn't have asked you to do. It's being kind and polite.

Passive aggressive maybe would be if you said it with a stubborn or annoyed tone to your voice, or if you seem miffed. If you are bland and mild and don't even seem to notice how rude the person is being, that's not aggression, it's a kindness.

Most everyone would drop the question, after that, I believe, and maybe even get the sense (without being offended) that it wasn't quite the right question to have asked.
 

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Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
 

quote:

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maybe even get the sense (without being offended) that it wasn't quite the right question to have asked.

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quote:

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If you are bland and mild and don't even seem to notice how rude the person is being, that's not aggression, it's a kindness.

---

That sounds like a perfect example of being passive aggressive.

If a host did that to me (if I were rude enough to keep asking, of course), there's no way I'd be going to the party. What a lousy host.
 

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Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
 
Be nice to Anne Kate.

That smiley face is also passive aggressive.

[ December 19, 2003, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
She didn't say she's actually done it herself, she was merely suggesting a possible course of action. I'm not criticizing her, I'm criticizing the idea. And, I guess, anyone who implements it.

I'm beginning to think Hatrack is getting way too touchy to be fun.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
I just read this thread, and I have to say I think this is a culture thing.

Having been raised by a family that considered sending girls to "finishing school" a normal thing, and having been taught from the time I could walk the differences between bridal teas, bridal showers, and bridal coffees (not to mention what you can and cannot wear to each) - I could not imagine ever asking a hostess who else was coming.

I've never asked that question myself, either, I would never even think of asking it. *thinks* I guess it wouldn't matter to me. Even if I didn't like some of the people there, I would have accepted the invitation because of who asked me - the hostess. I owe it to her to do my part to make the gathering a success by being a gracious guest.

Wouldn't it be great if we could wear some kind of sign on our foreheads, so other people knew what things offended us? Most of you would not be offended at all but Kat and I look at it differently. Then again, I'm certain there are things I wouldn't think twice about that most of you would find offensive.

You yankees are all so touchy, anyway.

Disclaimer: the above statement in the final paragraph of this post was meant in jest and does not constitute an intentionally offensive remark.
 

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