quote:

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Why doesn't Sauron turn all his orcs around and have them attack Frodo, if S. sees that F. is so close to destroying the Ring?

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Simple. Sauron doesn't communicate telepathically with the orcs.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
Frodo had to leave Middle Earth because he could only find the healing and peace he needed at the Gray Havens. Of anyone in the entire trilogy, Frodo definetely has the most bad stuff done to him.

It also was a good literary thing for Tolkien to do because the main reason Frodo quested to destroy the ring was to save the Shire. I think he makes some comment along the lines of "I have saved the Shire, but not for myself." Very powerfully ironic, don't you think?
 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
Arwen basically petitioned the Valar and got permission for Frodo to go in her place to the Undying Lands, where he could be truly healed.

Thanks for the info, martha! How is it that you got to see it? Are you in New Zealand now or something? A member of the Screen Actors' Guild?
 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
In the book, of course, though the Ringwraiths reported that they were uneasy, and they felt a power from Frodo and the ring, Sauron never knew his danger until Frodo put on the ring and claimed it for his own at the cracks of doom. If the movie shows that Sauron saw Frodo and knew he had the ring before then, then it's wrong.
 

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Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
 
Erm, no, it isn't "wrong". It's just different.
 

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Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
 

quote:

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If the movie shows that Sauron saw Frodo and knew he had the ring before then, then it's wrong.

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I think Anne Kate meant not accurate with the book, and there is no reason for it not to be in this case.

[ December 12, 2003, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: Nick ]
 

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Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
 

quote:

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DO NOT READ if you haven't seen the movie yet!

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That was...that was just cruel.

 

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Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
Frodo carries three injuries that leave him unable to survive in Middle Earth in any comfort. 1) The wound from the Nazgul. In the book it mentions its returning pain on the anniversary of his wounding. 2) Shelob's poison, though this isn't mentioned often. 3) The Call of the Ring. Its hinted that though the ring is destroyed it still calls to him, or haunts him, killing his soul as it gives him longer life.

Or perhaps its the tragedy and evil he witnessed that drains Frodo, making him see the Shire in its petty fragile reality. They call this Delayed Stress Syndrome or some such.

Either way it hints that while the Ring is gone and Sauron is gone, evil and the influences of that evil still exist.

Eventually only the gods can cure these illnesses in Frodo, so he leaves.
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Yeah, I haven't heard about the spotlight catching Frodo yet. That makes me uneasy.
 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
ae, since the title on the movies is "Lord of the Rings", and not "Peter Jackson's cool fun story", then I do consider the things that are not like the books, and not even in the same spirit as the books, wrong.

[ December 12, 2003, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
Eruve ana kata
 

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Posted by martha (Member # 141) on :
 
My dad got us onto the New Line Cinema VIP list (by having founded the Tolkein Society of America in about 1965, and by visiting JRRT twice in Oxford).

>Sauron doesn't communicate telepathically with the orcs
Oh, oops, I confused him with the Hive Queen.
No, really, what about the flying things? Can't they carry messages between him and the orcish commanders?

I guess it's sort of a gray area, whether or not the Eye saw Frodo. It looked to me like it did, but y'all may see it another way.

I forgot another thing I wanted to say with my spoilers: that segment between when Sam rescues Frodo from the orcs (after he's been stung by Shelob), up until they get to Mt Doom, is full of fun stuff for VSD.
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
Sauron has direct telepathic control over the Ring Wraiths (i.e. the riders of the flying things). If Sauron saw the ring before Frodo reached Mount Doom, the history of Middle Earth would have turned out a lot differently.
 

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Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
Dan_Raven, what about Frodo's missing finger (the one Gollum bit off)? Some people who are missing limbs experience "phantom pain," as if they can still feel the missing limb.

Then of course there's the angst at only having nine fingers, and never being able to play the piano properly again.
 

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Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
 
I guess you could say that Frodo finally gives Gollum the finger....

[ December 16, 2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: ludosti ]
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
What's VSD?
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 

quote:

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Pirates of the Carribean but I read the screenplay.

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Pooka! I do exactly the same thing... I read screenplays whenever I don't acyually have the money/inclination to see the movie, but want to know what everyone is going on about.



I have seen POTC though (not, however, in cinemas)
 

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Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
Hmmm, if the ring has such a dramatic effect on people when they put it on their finger, what effect on Gollum might the ring have had when he SWALLOWED it (along with Frodo's finger)? Could it have kept Gollum alive in the fires of Mt. Doom? You see, that would mean the ring never actually came into contact with the fires of Mt. Doom, so it was never destroyed. Since it continually kept Gollum from dying, that meant that Gollum went on living forever in eternal torment in the fires of....never mind.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Pooka, VSD stands for Very Secret Diaries, a humorous and somewhat suggestive parodies located here.

You might not find them amusing, of course, but they have become part of the self-referential language of LotR fandom. If you ever notice anyone saying things like, "Still the Prettiest!" or "Sam will kill you if your try anything" or "Pervy Hobbit Fancier" that is where it comes from.

Even our own Wenches' Tavern has adopted the ubiquitous Strawberry Scented Bubble Bath.
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
Ron, at least in the books, Gollum didn't swallow the finger with the ring, he just bit it off. He was dancing around with glee, holding the finger with the ring still on it, when he cast his eyes up to it to gloat, and missed his footing, and fell in. From the descriptions I've read from people who've seen it, the movie scene is quite similar. So the fires of Mt. Doom would have touched the ring and dissolved it. Also there's nothing that says you can't be killed when you have one of these rings, just that you don't grow older.

[ December 16, 2003, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
 

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Posted by skrika03 (Member # 5930) on :
 
So shouldn't there be some folks who have finished seeing the movie (besides illuminati like Martha)? Was it released in Canada at midnight? Isn't there some timezone further east than east there?

It looks like Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, and Canadian Maritime Provinces are Atlantic Standard Time.

ak, how'd ya do that with your registration date?

[ December 17, 2003, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: skrika03 ]
 

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Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
 
This is a beautiful movie.
there were things I didn't like at the time, but I can't think of any now, except legsy surfing the olifaunt.

Billy Boyd and Sean Astin are really excellent, and even Eliija starts actually acting.

Ni!
 

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Posted by BYuCnslr (Member # 1857) on :
 
<spoilers>

Gollum does not swallow the finger in the movie. With Peter Jackson's changes in the plotline...I completely forgive him for everything EXCEPT the Scouring of the Shire, actually...the lack there of...it really messed up the reasoning of why Frodo went to the Grey Havens, but Peter Jackson was still able to do it very very well, it was beautiful.
Satyagraha
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
I SAW IT! I SAW IT!

*dances around mockingly*

FYI, Gollum bites Frodo's finger off with the ring, discards the finger, dances gleefully about with said ring, then Frodo starts tussling with him for it, and in the scuffle they both tumble off the side of that bridge thingy.

So. Freakin. Great.

I can't believe it's almost four in the morning.



 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
Was good.
Much better than TTT.
Going to sleep now, more later.
Goodnight.

 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
I don't think the missing Scouring messed up Frodo's reason for going West. He left because he bore a few wounds that would never heal while he was in Middle Earth, and because of the mark the ring left upon him. It would've been nice to see Merry and Pippin get to be their badass selves, but I was too busy trying not to cry to even notice.

Legolas on the Oliphant and the Palantir just lying in the water were the only major dislikes for me. That, and the sudden disappearance of Faramir.

[ December 17, 2003, 04:38 AM: Message edited by: Frisco ]
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
Wow. Return of the King was better than the first two extended editions combined. Yeah, I'll post some more stuff tomorrow when I've figured out how to describe the greatness of this movie. I think I can even forgive Peter Jackson for leaving out the Scouring. Must sleep now...
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
More important than my ramblings about Return of the King (ROTK) is the intelligence regarding when would be the best time to visit the throne. The best bathroom break occurs about half way into the movie, when you see Aragorn waking up in a Rohirrim tent and was bidden to visit Theoden. What follows is a tedious sequence where Elrond tells Aragorn that in order to save Minas Tirith, Aragorn must awaken a ghost army which centuries ago had sworn allegiance to the king of Gondor. Legolas explains the same thing later on so feel free to abandon your catheter at this time.


 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
If PJ had kept in the Houses of Healing scene, it would be the best movie ever made. I kind of needed a bit more resolution for Eowyn and Faramir's characters (on a side note, I had a girl try to convince me that Eowyn died in the books! Stupid people suck!)

As it stands, I love this movie. I don't know how soon I'll be able to see it again, because it was a very emotional experience for me. I don't normally cry at movies, but I started about 5 minutes in and it was touch-and-go for the rest of the movie up until the end of the credits. Seriously - every time Faramir came on screen, I started bawling. That's just because I love his character in the book.

Alright, here's the real question: Is it just me, or did Eomer get HOT? And Faramir, by the end, wasn't too shabby either. And Legolas, oh poor Legolas, you make a horribly ugly woman - you need to get dirty and "manly" again. He was very femmy when he cleaned up. He even made Gimli look moderately attractive... for a dwarf...
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
So was this girl trying to pull one over on you, or did she honestly think that that was the case?
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I liked how Aragorn discovered the magic of showers and hair products.

Honestly, though, although I liked the ending, it was so very long that I probably upset the people behind me with all of my fidgeting. Large diet Cokes are a bad idea.

-pH
 

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Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
 
IT WAS SO AWESOME!!!
*does a Gollum dance*
I think it was the best of the three!

Three cheers for Peter Jackson for keeping Frodo's pants on!!!

The audience had some collective reactions to a few things:
Shelob stinging Frodo- everyone there gasped
Gimli saying "But that only counts as one!"- everyone clapped...and laughed
When the hobbits were jumping on Frodo's bed and Gimli comes in- everybody laughed
When Sam and Frodo were talking about the Shire, and green grass, and Frodo says something about "being naked in the dark"- everyone looked around at each other like "did he just say what I THINK he said?"

Some thing I think were done really well:
The Shelob scene was awesome! You could feel the tension in the air, and it was pretty scary.
Legolas and Gimli starting a new count. That was a great idea, and I really didn't see it coming. And that stunt Legolas pulled was cooler than the skateboard one! He climbs up the arrows stuck in the oliphaunt, knocks over the tower on it's back, and shoots THREE arrows at once!!! It...was...so...cool!
When Frodo put on the ring and Gollum wrestled with him, it was really neat to see Gollum floating around in the air like that.
I think they made the dead army really cool, too.
The stunt with Eowyn using two swords and taking out a mumak. That was awesome! And then Eomer spearing the mumak rider, and taking out two mumaks!
Gollum framing Sam was good. "look! crumbs on hobbitses jacket! Hee ate it! always stuffing his face when master isn't looking!"


Some things that were wrong, or just wierd:
Elrond in the Rohan camp. That was so out of place.
No houses of healing. I can understand leaving out the scouring of the Shire, but the houses of healing needed to be in there. He just left so much unexplained, and it was like there was a hole in the middle of the movie. And Eowyn looked like she wasn't hurt that bad.
Frodo falling into Mt. Doom. That was odd, I'm glad he fixed it.
No Saruman. I hope he'll at least be in the EE.
I didn't like how they made Pippin look like kind of a coward. In the book he fough TROLLS for pete's sake!
And "Arwen's life being bound to the ring's fate". What the heck was that one all about?!
"Being naked in the dark" someone has a lot of explaing to do...

quote:

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I continue to be annoyed by what PJ did with Gimli's character. I admit that some comic relief was needed, but if he's such a brilliant director, surely he could have come up with something different, something that didn't reduce a proud, noble Dwarf to a mere clown just because he's short (and is the only non-beautiful member of the Fellowship). Well, at least his part is mercifully smaller in RotK.

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quote:

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Is it just me, or did Eomer get HOT?

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oooh...yes he did!

I should really go get some sleep now...
 

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Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
 
WOAH! pH posted!

Get in touch with me girl!
 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
Eomer was ALREADY hot! Didn't you notice? <drooling smilie> I'm going to see it in 90 more minutes! I can't wait!!!!
 

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Posted by Hazen (Member # 161) on :
 
I can't believe that people are saying that the ending was long. If you were to ask me, I would swear that it was only about 10 minutes from where they got rid of the ring to the start of the credits.

The crowd I saw it with cheared when Eowyn killed the fell beast. They did that scene pretty well. The only thing I wish is that the Nazgul could have challenged her and Eowyn have defied him before Merry stabbed him. That would have been a lot cooler. (And closer to the book)

I wish they hadn't had Frodo go off the cliff (what is it with Peter Jackson and cliffs?) and I really wish they hadn't shown Gollum in the fire. That looked so cheesy.

Houses of Healing are definitely needed. Now it looks like they just rush from Gondor to Mordor.

Overall, I liked it, though. I thought Jackson's direction worked really well in the scenes after they get into the gate of Gondor. I even forgot that the Rohirrim were coming, and was kind of relieved when they showed up. That was my favorite scene.
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
I think the deletion of Saruman sounds similar to how Darth Vader fades off in the Return of the Jedi. Of course, I haven't actually seen the movie. Though I did see a dramatized synopsis. Oddly, neither the houses of healing nor the scouring of the Shire were mentioned in that.

Edit: Oh, yeah, I was going to add that Strider was quite well groomed in the court of Theoden in TTT.

[ December 17, 2003, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
Noemon - she was deathly serious and I'm afraid she didn't believe me when I informed her of the truth. Oh well...

And yes, Eomer was hot before, but now... hot DAMN! He's HOT now!
 

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Posted by efrum (Member # 6030) on :
 
According to PJ, both the Houses of Healing, and the missing Saruman stuff will be in the EE. At least that's what the article I read claimed.

efrum
 

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Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
 
Scene that took my breath away:

The winged Nazgul harrying Faramir's troops.

I wept for the sheer joy and beauty of this scene. It was - so REAL!
 

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Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
pH, you have to be joking. You tried to get through a 3½ hour movie, plus 20 minutes of previews, plus however long you had to wait from the time you took your seat--and you bought a large diet coke? You poor soul!

Yeah, OK, now that I've seen the movie, I see Gollum didn't swallow. I didn't really remember exactly how it went in the book. Not that PJ always followed exactly what happened in the book.

But I thought it was amusing that the ring had to ham up its death scene by lingering just a little. I mentioned in another thread that it reminded me of Terminator II, and someone quipped that he was expecting Gollum to do a "thumbs up."
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Actually, I'd already gone to the bathroom twice. I went with two friends, so we'd try to summarize when someone came back from a potty break.

Of course, the summaries sounded something like "The king dude is trying to burninate things because he sucks at life" or "The giant spider deal is stalking Elijah because it wants some girly Hobbit bootay."

-pH
 

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Posted by Morgoth (Member # 5961) on :
 
Peter Jackson died to me the second elves showed up a helms deep.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
Hm. I think maybe the Two Towers EE is still my favourite, though the RotK EE could claim that title next year, especially if the houses of healing and the scouring of the Shire are in it. I'll need to see RotK again, though. Definitely.

I wanted more Eowyn... mmmmmmm. I would have liked more of a battle between her and the Witch King. Eowyn kicking ass and taking names was unbelievably hot. Rowr!

Minas Morgul was beautiful. I'm glad they finally showed us the whole thing. Shelob was well-done too. I also loved the Rohirrim and Denethor. And Gandalf riding out to meet the Nazgul pursuing Faramir's group!

Wasn't so big on the "searchlight." There were places where I thought it was overdone.

All in all, though, a fitting end to what is very much my favourite film trilogy.
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
I want to thank whoever it was who told me the right time for a bathroom break. I went right when they called Aragorn from his tent and didn't miss anything important at all.

Oh, it was sooooooo good! The 3:20 went by like a flash. And yes, Eomer got even hotter. I think I'm going to be unfaithful to Aragorn and fall for Eomer instead. He was great!

They do show Faramir and Eowyn standing side by side at the coronation, so I'm sure that the EE will have their romance shown.

I was very glad I was forwarned about Frodo sending Sam away. Of COURSE that would never ever have happened. I'm glad I was prepared for it, and it didn't come as a shock.

Take an extra handkerchief! I cried a LOT! Great movie!
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
*personally, fell in love with Pippin. Grabs him and runs off to put him in the refrigerator*
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
I very much enjoyed it, and will see it again:)

I was pleased they didn't just end it at the celebration after Sauron's demise, but very surprised and not a little irked that they couldn't have done something at least close to the Scouring instead of roughly a half hour of semi-endings.

But I was expecting the Scouring not to be there, so I can cope:)

The battle-scenes were excellent...although now I think that PJ and Crew made the Nazgul's mounts (I disremember if they had names) too big. The Nazgul's chief weapon is supposed to be inspiring fear and flight in their enemies, and while they surely did that, their seemingly most effective weapon was simply stooping into formations of Men and dipping the proverbial ladle.

The beacon scene was excellent, and Minas Tirith (and Minas Morgul) were done better than I'd possibly hoped, even recalling Edoras and Rivendell. Smeagol's...descent into Gollum was nicely done, as well. The Paths of the Dead were nice, and in fact I was more frightened by them in the film than I ever was in the book.

The music in this one was, perhaps, the best of the three.

Now for my beefs....

They cut what is perhaps the most goose-bump-creating line in the whole book for me! When Eowyn, with Merry's help, slays the Witch-King of Angmar, and Eomer finds the King dead on the field (the battle not yet over, and in fact looking very bad for the good guys) then discovers Eowyn, apparently dead, as a total shock. I could come close to quoting the sentences verbatim, but needless to say I was disappointed that my (single, told-in-a-line-or-two) moment was lost. Particularly when it could've been included so easily and, in fact, so usefully. Since frankly the Rohirrim were outnumbered on the field of battle by roughly 15-20 to one, just by looking at the size of the formations from the bird's eye view shots.

A young king just crowned in battle, having just found his King and uncle slain, suddenly discovering his sister the same, as a total shock, is the kind of thing that can, rarely, change the odds.

I was disappointed that the only Men on Sauron's side of things were the Haradrim. It makes for a simpler and more understandable film, true (Orcs & Sauron vs. Good Guys), but I think audiences could've handled some more Men fightin' for the wrong side of things. But then, since they cut Sam's line concerning the Haradrim in the theater-release, it's not so surprising. This also deprived Theoden of a specific glorious victory, man to man.

Saruman! He just...vanished. We heard his name perhaps...three times? Then nothing. I will be very irritated if he doesn't get major treatment in the EE. (I was cringing everytime I saw something spiky, too, in Isengard )

The whole sequence where the last fight at the Morannon and the crossing of the Gorgoroth was rushed. Unavoidable, I suppose.

The Oliphaunts were stunning and impressive.

The final struggle between Gollum and Frodo, and Frodo's defiant and selfish claiming of the Ring, were handled superbly, I thought. I too thought having the Ring linger for a moment was delicious.

The kiss between Arwen and Aragorn was Hollywood-esque, but then that's to be expected. And frankly the most passionate stories of Tolkien's involved one other affair between a Man and an Elf-woman .

Frodo had to go with the Elves to Valinor (loosely home of the Gods or Angels and the Elves) because he, too, was a Ring-Bearer, for over a year. He'd contended directly with Sauron's will for over a year (and failed, but that was the only possible outcome), and he'd suffered great, supernatural harm because of his struggle. In order to be healed, and because God and the gods do take part in the happenings of Middle-Earth (or at least observe, as far as the angels are concerned), Frodo is accorded the honor and reward of travelling to where only...let me think...one other mortal being has gone. (Not counting Ar-Pharazon and his followers among the rebellious Numenorians)

Sauron does communicate telepathically with his Nazgul, but the reason he didn't send `em going after Frodo was because he didn't know he was there. He only gets the exact GPS beacon on the Ring when it's worn.
 

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Posted by fiazko (Member # 5812) on :
 
You can't have Pippin. He's mine!

And all you Eomer-lovers, take a look at the Unabashed Fandom thread. Who brought up Eomer/Karl Urban? Uh huh. That's what I thought.

Anyway, after reading the reviews of everyone who has read the books and been a fan for so much longer than me, I am more glad than ever that 1)I didn't read the books first and 2)didn't read spoilers anyway or let my friends tell me how the story ends. I was sucked in from the beginning (of RotK) and marvelled at everything. All of the directorial and cinematic attempts to build the intensity and heighten the suspense worked on me, and gave me the best motion picture experience of my life. I agree with the people who say to keep the Tolkein and PJ efforts separate. When I finally started reading the books, I noticed the inconsistencies, small and large. But I can appreciate both the books and the movie without begrudging either, and I wouldn't trade that for anything.

That said, I am looking forward to the EE. It was helpful to know ahead of time some of the things that were missing in the theater that will be on the dvd. Even not knowing the whole story, I didn't let that ruin the movie for me.

I can't wait until I'm ready to see it again.
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
Yes, I saw that sequence of the searchlight and didn't think Sauron actually saw Frodo. He just was looking very hard and came close.

I thought they did a perfect job with Sauron. I really don't think I could have stood for a whole lot of personification. He was so very terrifying in the books mainly because he never was diminished to the form and shape of a man or elf. I am glad they even took his lines away in Pippin's encounter with him in the Palantir. He was a lot scarier that way, I thought.

I didn't even see that it was Merry who stabbed the Witch King before Eowyn got him. I will have to watch it again and look more closely. Did they show him well? Eowyn was absolutely awesome, I thought. She's my new favorite actress.

This was by far the best of the three movies, in my opinion. The music in the other two annoyed the heck out of me, and this music was fine. I forgot myself in the story this time, and never did before.

The saddest moment for me was when Faramir said to his father, "If I return I hope you will think better of me." And his dad answered, "That depends on the manner of your return." <cries>

I wish we had been able to see the scouring, though I can understand that there wasn't time. I really hate it that Rosie was made into a barmaid, though. That's so unrespectable! Also did you see that Sam and Rosie were NOT living in Bag End when he got back home after the havens? I wonder why not? That seemed really odd to me. What, is Bag End all locked up and empty?
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
Eomer is a severe hottie, no doubt. I hate it that a lot of the pics of him I linked to before are now gone.

His armor is just awesome! I want Halla (my D&D paladin character) (if Tom ever revives the game) to have armor just like that, only, you know, sized for Halla. Can Halla have armor like that, Tom, please? <puppy eyed smilie>

[ December 18, 2003, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
 

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Posted by fiazko (Member # 5812) on :
 
The two middle pics look like he's holding a "dead" Eowyn, so something tells me that part will be in the EE.
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
Ah, fiazko, you're right! That's exactly what is happening there. He's freaking out about Eowyn being dead, then he's going berzerk and riding into battle again.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Please forgive me for starting it off this way, I just have to get it off my chest. I will get into what I loved, so stick around.

Things that royally pissed me off:

• Frodo sending Sam away. Frodo was never so stupid that he couldn't see through Gollum's plotting and I'm just so irritated that they turned it into a love triangle.
• Aragorn seeming totally oblivious to the fact that he would have to go through the paths of the dead. He too was never so stupid.
• The fact that Eowyn's and Merry's injuries were so lightly dismissed. (Yes, I'm glad it will be in the EE)
• For a movie that's titled "Return of the King" there sure wasn't very much king at all.

• The vision that Arwen has of Aragorn and their son. That was just lovely and I bawled like an idiot.
• The Hollywood kiss at the end. The fact that Aragorn was surprised to see her was rather silly, but it made it a little more romantic and fun.
• The final scene when Sam and Frodo are on the rock surrounded by the lava. It's exactly how I pictured it. I love it when Frodo puts his arm around Sam and they just sit there with their heads together.
• The looks on everyone's faces as they stood there and witnessed the fall of Sauron. That was fantastic. I couldn't help but yell out "Ha HA!!"
• The goodbye scene at the end. It was one of the only places where I didn't feel rushed and PJ took the luxury of enough time to do the scene justice.
• I LOVED Legolas surfing the oliphant. It was tons of fun and I think he deserved the applause that he got in our showing.
• The cracks of doom scene was perfection. Just perfection.
• Minas Morgul and the way it looked like Emerald City on drugs. It was just thrilling!!

I found myself feeling cranky when it was all over just because a) it was over and I would never get to see it for the first time again b)it felt like I had read the book in fast forward and c)I was rather overwhelmed with things to think about. I think the editing was rather choppy, but that probably comes from just having too much good stuff to cram in one movie. I didn't miss Saruman that much, but I did miss the houses of healing and I really really missed Aragorn. I thought there just wasn't enough of the king, especially at the end. I really would have loved to have seen him in his kingdom. I was hoping he would show up at the harbor, but alas. No more Aragorn.
There has been so much talk about Oscars. People have said that Viggo should get one, or Sean Astin...and while their performances were truly wonderful, I think Elijah Wood's performance in this one was the tour de force. He was more wonderful than I've ever seen him and I have a renewed respect for his talent. I can't say enough good things about it. I think his performance is what made the movie so poignant and wonderful for me.
I didn't cry as much as I thought I would, but I did cry quite a bit. The Aragorn with son scene just about killed me...the charge of the Rohirrim...the pre battle pep talks...and the end when they all kneel before the hobbits. Ah. I get teary just thinking of it.

Ok, I'll humbly shut up now. Go see it if you haven't already.

[ December 18, 2003, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: Narnia ]
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Pippin is _so_ mine. I'll fight you.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
My likes:

-Those bad-person boats. The boats that were supposed to be bringing more wicked people to help out the Orcs, out of which leapt Aragorn, so very heroically. They were the most beautiful sea-going vessels I've ever seen. I would almost rather have one of those than have a pirate ship.
-Aragorn's rousing speech to the warriors at Sauron's gate (one of three emotionally charged moments at which my friend Atoshi didn't giggle, thus ruining it for me); for that matter, Aragorn singing at his coronation
-Gandalf being depressed and guilty all the time about Frodo

I liked a lot of things, actually, but there were a couple of things that made me so indignant I couldn't focus.

-Okay, what happened to my favorite scene? It was my favorite scene in the books, and possibly in all of literature. I think it was in TTT, shortly after Faramir lets Sam and Frodo go. Frodo and Sam are sleeping, and Gollum creeps up and touches Frodo's cloak, and Tolkien says something to the effect that he almost looks like a weary hobbit. And right then Sam wakes up and is mean to Gollum (that whole "Where have you been sneaking off to?" thing), and after that (Tolkien says!) "Shelob's lair becomes inevitable."

That scene was the best. It was a crucial turning point. It was beautifully written and it defined the books for me, and they left it right out. You could almost hear a tragic whooosh as it went by.

-Eomer. Okay, I love Eomer, and he's very lovely all the time, but particularly he has nice teeth. And he rarely, rarely smiles or talks where you can see his teeth in this movie. It was so sad.

-I was sad not to see the scene wherein Gandalf is better than Saruman. It was so satisfying. I loved that bit.

Overall, though, it was a lovely movie, and I quite liked it, [grumble] even if Peter Jackson did eliminate all moral ambiguity with Gollum being maybe-about-to-reform and Denethor being a fallen hero [/grumble].

Jen

[ December 18, 2003, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: Fyfe ]
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
Yes, I missed being able to see Denethor with his full moral complexity. He's the one who has held back the darkness from the rest of the free folk of the world for so long, and he's proud and he loved Boromir too much and Faramir not enough. He thinks too much of Gondor relative to the rest of the world, but still he was a very valiant hero. He struggled against the darkness his whole life long, and was finally mastered by it. His story is a very sad one.

Did you know that Aragorn and Denethor were both heroes together in Gondor's wars against the shadow in their youths? That when Denethor was the age Boromir and Faramir were in the movie, that Aragorn lived as almost an adopted son in the house of Denethor's father Ecthelion? They say he left because he didn't want to become Denethor's rival for the hearts of his people, because it wasn't yet his time. Aragorn is in his 80s during the time of the events in the movie. He's been given thrice the lifespan of ordinary men, as the men of Westernesse had, his forebears the Numenoreans.

They never even showed us that Denethor had a palantir, did they? I saw no sight of one in the flames.

I did miss Denethor being a complex character.

[ December 18, 2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
You know, the Greeks used to say that the Illiad and the Odyssey had everything you needed to learn in life. They said that all virtue, honor, and wisdom resided in Homer. That everything was there. That was all you needed in order to know how to be human well.

I have that feeling about Lord of the Rings. To me it is complete, just like the Greeks considered Homer. All of life is in there.

I think maybe that was what Tolkien was trying to do for those of us who speak English. If it was, then he succeeded.

[ December 18, 2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
 

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Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
You're saying the Lord of the Rings is our Illiad and Odyssey, a modern superclassic. You may be right.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
I think she IS right.
 

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Posted by Lime (Member # 1707) on :
 
You people all have weak bladders.

So, if the Flaming Eye can "pierce cloud, shadow, earth, and flesh" - why didn't Sauron see Frodo when he was lookin' straight at him?!

Other than that minor quibble, I can say that this was th ebest movie I've seen all year, and is certainly better than TT. But I have a real soft spot for Fellowship - which is my favorite will probably depend on my mood. The Extended is going to be an absolute treat. Hopefully they will insert a scene where we learn that Denethor has a Palantir and thus give him a reason for being off his rocker. But the Houses of Healing need to come back, and so does Saruman.
 

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Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
 
Pippin is MINE I tell you!
(my prreciousss)
Man, he's hot and adorable all rolled into one!
Just irrisistable!
And those dimples!
And the irish accent!
And the looks on his face!
And he's a comic!

*is so in love with Pippin*
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
The accent is Scottish.
 

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Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
 
Sure sounds irish to me.
Gimli has the scottish accent.


 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
http://www.billyboyd.net/diary2.asp?ID=16

He's from Perth.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Pfft. He's mine, and that's that!

*will make wings out of newspaper and fly over there to steal him while she's on that side of the ocean. Then will put him in her suitcase and refuse to declare him to the customs people* "I don't know what you're talking about. He was there when I _left_ for Europe!"

-pH
 

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Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
 
*drools*
 

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Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 

quote:

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Frodo sending Sam away. Frodo was never so stupid that he couldn't see through Gollum's plotting and I'm just so irritated that they turned it into a love triangle.

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Narnia, I thought that was the most intensely dramatic part of the development in Sam and Frodo's friendship. I love the way Jackson brought this out.

No one can hurt you worse than a friend. When Frodo doubted Sam who had been nothing but faithful and loyal, and told him to turn back, he left Sam weeping in pain. This was the ultimate test for any friendship, to be doubted wrongly and denounced and rejected. For Sam to overcome that, for their friendship to overcome that ultimate test, cemented a friendship far beyond what most people can ever attain--but a few can. A very few. This was what, in my mind, made Sam the greatest hero of the movie. Overcoming his internal pain and continuing to honor his duty to his friend despite being misunderstood and rejected, was greater than his victory over Shelob. When Sam descended a little way and found the lembas bread that had obviously been tossed down by Gollum, he could have shrugged and said, "Well Frodo made his choice." He already knew Gollum had lied, and finding this proof did not really change anything for Sam. 99% of people probably would have gone on back down the mountain, wallowing in their own misery and hurt and feelings of resentment. But Sam rallied, thinking more of Frodo than himself, fearing what would happen with Frodo now virtually at the mercy of Gollum. And Frodo was the Ringbearer, and Sam had sworn an oath to protect him and see him through to his ultimate objective.

To me, this is the most beautiful and moving part of all the Lord of the Rings trilogy. This is where good truly triumphed over evil.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
But, see, this happens in the book without having to have Frodo betray their friendship, and Sam remains just as noble.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Exactly.
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
Hear, hear!
 

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Posted by Maccabeus (Member # 3051) on :
 
AK, I kind of disagree with you about Sauron. Sauron sort of...fades out, to me. He's less scary because he's less there, as though he's become some kind of abstraction. For all it mattered, the Big Flaming Eye could have been a searchlight...or the Bat-Signal.

At the very least, they could easily have done the big smoky hand at the last, where he reaches out one last time as if trying to hold Middle-Earth for himself somehow. I could even have settled for the hand reaching toward Mount Doom as if to grab for the Ring, instead.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
I remember when reading the books that the scariest Sauron moment for me was when Pippen actually SEES him (doesn't he actually see him?) in the palantir and hears his voice in a deeply intimate, very personal manner. yeesh. That made him more real to me as the complete evil and adversary in the story. In the movie, it's a little fire, some smoke and a gravelly voice...but I'd love to have heard some more of Pippin's description of what he saw, how he felt etc...

In the movie, the adversary with all the strength seemed to be the ring. I guess this wasn't so bad, but I found myself being more scared of IT than I ever was of Sauron. Either way, it worked.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Well, it's debateable whether or not Sauron, after creating the Ring and investing his native power heavily into it, was more powerful than the Ring, strictly speaking.

After all, if the right person took up the ring-Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, Elrond, or Cirdan possessed and mastered the Ring (which they could all do, in becoming mastered themselves), they would without much trouble supplant Sauron.

Granted, the Ring answer's Sauron's will while Sauron exists in Middle-Earth, but I think it is more powerful than him, as far as raw power is concerned. Sauron never reckoned on losing it, after all, so he saw no problem in dumping so much of himself into it.

The Sam frame-up, while handled very well and movingly, was completely unneccessary. I understand why it was done, though. To give the movie more psychological tension. In the book the tension was, "Will Gollum or Smeagol win out?" but in the film it wasn't so much a question of Gollum losing as it was of who he brings down with him.

Edit: I wish they'd added more surprise at Pippin's refusal (however short-lived) of Sauron in the Palantir. It's one of the more remarkable occurrences showing just how unique and capable Hobbits really are. Very few people, outside of the Wise, could have done anything but tell Sauron their names immediately, but Pippin managed to hold out. And he ain't even growed up yet:)

[ December 19, 2003, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Rakeesh ]
 

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Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
 
Olivet, thanks for the website!!!
Heh, since he's scottish that makes him even cooler!


Did I mention he has a really great voice?
 

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Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
 

quote:

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On being asked if he could relate to his character, Pippin: "Strangely enough, the first time I tried to read the book I was on holiday in Florida. I dropped it in the pool my first day there. If that's not a Pippin thing to do, I don't know what is."

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quote:

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12/1/2002: Topped list of top 100 Most Eligible Men in Scotland

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*moves to Scotland*
 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
I heard a critic say that RotK redeemed the whole series for him, that it lifted it up to a new level. I feel sort of the same way. Does anyone else? I know most of the reviews of the first two movies were fairly positive, but for me, although I have always positively drooled over how perfect everyone and everything looked, I never liked Peter Jackson's storytelling. He seemed to have made a 2 dimensional action flick out of one of my favorite stories of all time. He seemed to make it so much less than it was. However, finally with RotK I was sucked in totally. It won me over completely. I was carried out of myself altogether and into the story which was Tolkien's story, my story, that I love. That look on Faramir's face when he said "If I should return then I hope you'll think better of me." And how stricken he was at his father's unyielding reply. I am getting teary eyed now just thinking about it. It was so wonderful. Eowyn was wonderful.

Elijah Wood was great. His Frodo convinced me. I've thought all along that his Frodo was weak. Nothing at all like the wise, learned, percipient, and courageous hobbit that I knew so well. I think now that they must have trimmed his part because, though he is gorgeous and looks exactly right for Frodo, I don't think he could act or shoulder the really large part of the story that belongs to him. But he made up for it at the end.

Even Gollum was less fakey looking. I know he's a triumph of CGI, completely cutting edge, and all that, but if you watch how he moves, how his hair falls, and everything else, he's pathetically unlike a real creature. Andy Serkis in a suit would have been much better, I think. But in RotK he was a whole lot better than he was before. Somehow this third one just WORKED, in a way that the first two did not work for me. And thank goodness it did. It definitely redeemed the entire series for me.

[ December 20, 2003, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
 

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Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
 
I thought showing Smeagol/Deagol's story was good, especially for those who haven't read the book. It set up the later Frodo/Sam scenes later in the film.

I thought the Frodo/Sam/Gollum betrayals were unnecessary and annoying.

I thought the end of the film was anticlimactic, and it actually took away from the power of the story. We needed the Scouring very badly, because it brings the Hobbits' story full circle.

Perhaps, though, it was all left out because Peter Jackson was telling Gandalf's story throughout the film. It was never about the hobbits, not really. It was about Gandalf and the Ring.
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
The scouring only finishes off Merry and Pippin's story...and unfortunately, they weren't a huge part of the movie. To have the scouring as the climax after putting so little emphasis on those two in the movies wouldn't have had the same impact as it did in the book. Frodo and Sam are still brought full circle--their stories completed. That was enough for me, I guess.

I'm still hoping they're just messing with us, and they really did film the scouring--to be released in the EE (seeing as I, along with everyone else who read the books, can fill in the M&P blanks in the movie by heart).

And if they didn't, I think we should start a petition for them to get their asses back into the studio and film it before November.
 

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Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
 
The naked in the dark line was, "[Remember all this stuff from the shire?]... and now we're just naked in the dark."
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
I think he said "I'm naked in the dark."

I guess that's the only way it made sense to me...but then again I don't have a dirty LotR mind like the WenchCon girls (and guys).
 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
"...with nothing between myself and the wheel of fire." Wasn't that it?
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Yes, that's the line. It made sense to me (and I was waiting for it because I had read some of the reviews before I went to see it.)

ak, that's exactly EXACTLY how I felt about Elijah Wood too. His performance ... well, I've already gone on and on about it. but I loved it!!

I agree with you Frisco about the Merry/Pippin thing. We were just watching the Fellowship and PJ and the screenwriters chose to turn Merry and Pippin into weak, bumbling blockheads, when in the real story, they were friends who cared deeply about Frodo and CHOSE to go with him on his journey and help him with whatever he had to face. In RotK, they pledged allegiance to two different kings, fought bravely, looked death in the face, and grew an entire foot because of the entdroughts. Seeing as how all of this did NOT happen in the movie, the scouring of the shire wouldn't have been very believable or necessary to the audience.

(I was even bummed when they dressed the hobbits back up in their normal hobbit garb at the king's crowning and NOT in their mail and uniforms.)
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
I hated that everyone giggled at that part while I was covered in goosebumps from the "You bow to no one." line.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
My theater didn't giggle. We were all crying. (yea even the 60 year old man on my right and all of his friends.) It was a great moment.
 

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Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
Yes, I loved that too, when Aragorn said, "Friends, you bow to no one," and then he, the King of Gondor, followed by all his subjects and guests, kneeled and bowed to the humble little hobbits who had saved Middle Earth.
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
That might get my vote as best delivery of the movie, though Astin nails "Well...I'm back."
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
One thing that still bugs me: The army that left Minas Tirith to ride to the Black Gate was doing just that-riding.

Yet when they get to Mordor, they're all on foot.

What gives?
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
I'll meet that and raise you one!

When Frodo is naked in the tower at Minas Morgul, they get orc clothes to wear.

Where in the heck did they get Frodo's hobbit clothes back for the last 15 minutes of the climb up Mt. Doom?? Did anyone else notice that? He was back in suspenders and knickerbockers after a few minutes of being an orc.

What gives?
 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
The reason I really hate it that the scouring was left out is that it shows how they apply what they learned in extraordinary situations to their everyday life. That there are orcish ways to act and more noble ones. That there are always Sarumans who secretly plot for their own ends, and Denethors who despair at the odds, and dwarf/elf animosity that threatens to break alliances, but there are also the Sams, who seeming to have no real talents or great learning, no abilities besides homespun resourcefulness, determination, loyalty, and valor, go on to accomplish great things. And there are unlikely deep friendships like Legolas and Gimli's, and unexpected lucky breaks, and the stalwart people of sense like Farmer Maggot. In the end you have to put your OWN home into order, you have a responsibility to your own little world, to take a stand and to fight against the Lothos, the rules and shirrifs, and the Ted Sandyman types and just make things right again. To me without the scouring, the whole thing doesn't hit home so much.

But, there. Most of the people I talked to casually in line and in the theater had never read the book. Maybe now lots more of them will do that. And they'll get the real thing, then, complete and the way it should be.

[ December 20, 2003, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
They had recovered his clothes. That isn't made very clear in the movie. They didn't get into orc armor so he would have something to wear, but to hide. The armor was very heavy and hot, and they took it off as soon as they could.
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
More will read it than before, true, but generally it probably won't turn book readers into movie goers. Sadly, some people just don't like to read.
 

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