Exactly how do libraries get their books? Why don't they have user fees? How do most authors and publishers feel about libraries getting their books? Wouldn't they worry about losing buyers because of the free copies anyone can get by using a free card? Has any author or publisher refused a library access to a copy of a book?
Looking for both a legal and an ethical angle to these questions.
"These questions brought to you today by discussions of the letters M, P, and the number 3"
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
Ah, but you see, book publishers aren't 100% thieves.
This answer brought to you by the letters R, I, A, and A.
[ December 13, 2003, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: human_2.0 ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
To my knowledge, most -- perhaps even all -- libraries buy the bulk of their books, generally using a combination of donations, fundraisers, and tax dollars. I am unaware of any publisher who has objected to library display, and I'm not sure on what legal grounds they could prevent a library from purchasing a copy, if they did.
It's worth noting, however, that the situation is not analogous to MP3 piracy; if you purchased a CD and let your friends come over and borrow it without copying it for as long as they wanted, THEN that would be equivalent -- and would be legal.
[ December 14, 2003, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I'm also wondering how authors feel about libraries letting people borrow their books for free. I'm one of those people who rarely, rarely buys books, generally only when the library a) doesn't have the book b) has it but it's checked out and I absolutely cannot wait to read it, for one reason or another or c) I am gettting dirty looks from everyone involved because I have checked the book out over a hundred times (yes, I have actually) and the librarians feel things are getting a little out of hand.
It wasn't until very recently that I realized that most people actually bought the books they read, before they had read them. This is an extremely alien concept to me, one that I am still trying to assimilate. It seems so foolhardy.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
It has occured to me that perhaps the fear that people aren't reading books based on how many buy them is flawed. It would seem more realistic to see how many people own and use library cards. As a wanna-be author, this whole library thing is starting to scare me financially.
And, I am not afraid of accusations of writing for money. It takes a lot of time and brain power to get words on paper for others to read. Compensation is the hallmark of success if you really care about your work.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Occasional, a surprising number of people on this board have ACTUALLY written for money.
That said, libraries should not be a major concern; by the time you're writing books that libraries are interested in purchasing, you won't be worried too much about the paltry few sales you might lose to that institution.
[ December 14, 2003, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
I have spent so much money on library fines in my lifetime that I decided I would use that money to build my own library instead. Seriously, I like to be able to read books over and over, if I like them, and to give them to friends. And I like to be able to jot notes in any sort of reference books, or textbooks, or anything that I work with. I like to underline words I don't know and make a mark on the edge of the pages there so I can go back later and look them up. And I like being able to take as long as I like to get around to reading something. Also, my local library sucks, and doesn't have many of the books I want to read. Because of all these things, and because I can afford it, I buy almost all the books I read now.
I do buy mostly paperbacks unless I already know I love the book and want to keep it forever, or unless I really can't wait to read a new book until the paperback edition comes out. I have a bunch of hard cover books of classics and things, but to tell the truth, paperbacks are a lot more comfortable to carry around with you while you're reading them, and to prop on your chest in bed at night, and so on. I enjoy reading paperbacks more, just because the weight is less. So for most of the books I have in hard cover, I also have a paperback copy as well.
Do most people not buy their books? Does your local library carry the books you want to read?
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
I'm not sure about most of those questions, but I doubt libraries hinder sales. That's because libraries have due dates and fees if it gets torn or written in. I, myself, usually never buy a book before borrowing it from the library; in other words, if it weren't for libraries, I would barely read at all for entertainment. I also use libraries to test out authors. Normally, I'll borrow two books by an author, see if I like the both, and if I do, I'll buy any other books by that author without any hesitation. I hate throwing thinsg away, see, and I don't have the audacity or idiocy to give a terrible book to my friends and family.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Legally, libraries are more than adequately protected. No worries there.
Also, you have to remember that the purpose of copyright law is not to allow creators to make money, it is to increase the creation of works available freely to the public which is done by securing the copyright of the creator for a limited time so that they have sufficient incentive to produce more works. That abundant knowledge should enter the public domain was the desire of the founders, not that it remain in private hands.
There is no right to as much profit as you can make.
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
quote:blacwolve said: It wasn't until very recently that I realized that most people actually bought the books they read, before they had read them. This is an extremely alien concept to me, one that I am still trying to assimilate. It seems so foolhardy.
I totally agree. I think I eventually chalked it up to people being too impatient to wait for the really popular books(which you'd need to put on hold), too lazy to go to the library and too unwilling to return the book in 4 weeks time (8 if you renewed it online). I know at least one guy who refused to use the library. He only bought his books. He never really explained it. Maybe it's a capitalistic need to covet and then own a book.
I read too many books when I was younger to make it affordable to buy all of them. Now, it's not so much economics, although that is an incentive, but habit that has been created over a couple of decades.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I always buy my books because I always want to have the option of picking it up and reading it whenever I want, and I like for the author to make a few bones. Besides, books are cheap. I mean, they cost about as much as lunch at a fast-food joint! I'd waste that much money in gas gallivanting around town trying to find an available copy. And when they're my books, I can write in them, lend(aka give) them to friends, look up quotes, use them to prop up tables...whatever.
I don't usually buy a book until I've read it, though(unless it's recommended by a 100% reliable source). This makes for a lot of hours lounging and drinking cappucinos in those comfy chairs at B&N. Let me tell you, you really get to know the employees in the course of knocking out the Harry Potter series.
I can't imagine not having my favorites around. There are a lot of books I absolutely love and read at least yearly. Besides, every book I check out of the library is possibly keeping someone from reading it who really can't afford it.
Posted by Hazen (Member # 161) on :
I am a mix. I check out from a library about 10 books for every book I buy, but I still buy them, if I have money. Some books, it is just better to own. The Tolkein Reader is one that I cannot imagine not owning, because every little while I just get the urge to read something from it. If I didn't own any of the first three Alvin books, I wouldn't be able to pick it up and re-read whenever I get the urge (which usually comes about 1 AM on the day before a major test, but that's a different story). Thus far I have bought 19 Card books, 2 in hardback, and have checked out about that many from the library. I figure that most readers are about like me, so authors are not getting seriously gipped financially. Even if 20 people read their book without buying it, they still have those rare people who pay them back 20 times over. So it all evens out.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
The topic's been pretty well-covered. Libraries buy books the old-fashioned way (though bigger ones usually have special distribution deals) using whatever money they can get their hands on: tax revenues, user fees, .edu financing, public and private donations, etc. For some things like academics journals, publishers would sell like 3 copies were it not for libraries. I believe it's actually illegal for a publisher to refuse to send a copy to the Library of Congress.
Libraries do rent CDs and videos, you know. It's perfectly legal to copy a borrowed CD onto AHRA-approved media.
Posted by BrianM (Member # 5918) on :
So when you copy things out of books borrowed from the library its illegal? Guess school projects will soon be outlawed!
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
No, only when copy "too much" (the exact quantity is explicitly not legally defined, and varies by work). And even then its not clearly illegal unless you make the copies available to others.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
Xeroxing a page out of a textbook is copyright infringement, yes, in a way that said CD copying is not; quoting two lines of an author in a book review is too. Luckily, the 4-way test for fair use has been recognized by the SCOTUS since 1841 and codified in USC 17 since 1976. It's pleasantly vague* enough that anything could become an indemnified infringement depending on the right judge.
In practice, just about anything a student does won't be prosecuted, although they open themselves up to sanctions within the academic community itself (i.e. plagiarism). OTOH, just because works have educational merit doesn't excuse infringment; cf. the Kinkos case.
*One downside of leaving it up to case-by-case court decisions is with DRM systems. Without any mandate to keep this or that infringement technically possible, they can pursue the most restrictive set of rules and yet ask for full copyright protection with a straight face. Sickening.
[ December 14, 2003, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: Richard Berg ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Copyright infringement is a somewhat vague term. Any distribution of something under copyright is copyright infringement, but copyright infringement falls under three categories: civil copyright infringement, criminal copyright infringement, and copyright infringement protected by fair use. Criminal copyright infringement is mainly a matter of magnitude when compared with civil copyright infringement, though intent matters some.
However, copying pages out of a library book (and keeping them) is not clearly infringement of any kind; no distribution is involved. I suppose an argument could be made that you, acting as an agent of the library, copied and distributed files to you, not acting as an agent of the library, but such legal multiple personalities aren't used all that much in modern law anymore.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
We can also say, with 99% certainty, that it's protected by fair use. For better or worse, §107 protections can only be determined in court.
[ December 14, 2003, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Richard Berg ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Sorry, I was incorrect. Luckily fair use is wonderfully encompassing .
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Libraries are the best things in the world! There are authors whose books I would never had bought if I hadn't been exposed to them in the library first. I would think it the highest honor to have my book in a library, freely available for everyone, even those too poor to spend money on books, to read.
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
One downside to buying all your books is you do have to keep getting bigger places to live every few years as they fill up with books. I can't bring myself to get rid of any of them, (except the few I give to friends). Anyway, since the books I share with friends are usually my very favorites of all, stuff I think they will really love, I will most likely end up buying those again sooner or later.
I'm thinking of adding some built in shelves in the living room somewhere. All my shelves have books crammed two deep and sideways at the top. Caution: a wall with floor to ceiling shelves filled with books is seriously heavy and may overload the structural supports of your house in that spot. Maybe I should turn one of my downstairs rooms into the library.
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
I loved my university library. They actually tried to have good books there. My local public library said they don't try to do that at all. They only want to have available the stuff that people will read. So it's a whole bunch of Danielle Steele and junk like that, and they sold off most of their best books. Luckily, my sister went to all the sales and picked us up some of what they got rid of.
The only trouble with my university library was that I wanted to spend all my time reading instead of doing my schoolwork. I remember there was this wonderful big shelf of Russians. I read so much really great stuff there, much of it that's now out of print and I've never been able to find again since then.
That library for me was like a package store for a wino, only they made you bring back your empties when you were done. How could anybody break free of the place, with that setup? I'd be in the middle of finals for all these engineering classes and meanwhile devouring Turgenev and Gogol my dear wonderful Fyodor Mikailovich.
[ December 14, 2003, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
No joke. The university music media center is the greatest thing ever. It doesn't match amazon or cdbaby.com, but you can't beat the return policy Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
I don't use the university library, but rather King County Library System (KCLS). At least one branch (in Bellevue, which is well funded because of the number of wealthy people who live around there, including Bill Gates) has copies of just about anything you could want, even the new CDs/Books which it orders and it shares with all the other branches. If the library doesn't have a book/CD you want, you just ask for it and they order it for you! That's friggin' awesome!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I'm fortunate enough to live near a wonderful library (the Beverly Hills Public Library), as well as a couple L.A. libraries which are far inferior. (I hear the main library Downtown is fairly impressive.)
A book that I plan to read only once I get from the library; if I plan to reread it many times, I'll likely buy it -- unless I am broke at the moment, in which case I'll get it from the library and wait to buy it. Then there's the whole HC/SC issue. I have been known to read the book from the library when it first comes out, and wait to buy it in SC (or used thru Half.com or wherever).
I also have ak's problem of needing ever-increasing book-space. I try to purge my collection every year or so. Anything in there that I no longer have an interest in rereading gets given away or donated to a thrift shop.
Everything else -- well, there's a reason I keep needing more bookshelves. Posted by bone (Member # 5277) on :
I think I buy about 2-3 times more books than I read and still check out pleasure reading once in a while. It goes without saying being a college student who actually does a lot of research I check out a lot of research material.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I also used to rack up huge library fines. So I just bought the books and saved myself the trouble and money.
Same with DVD rentals. I just buy my DVDs instead of getting huge fines and paying for it twice over.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
There isn't a writer alive who has not benefited from libraries. Libraries, by their very presence, encourage reading, one of the few trickle-down theories that works. Quick quiz: How many people here got their science fiction start by reading the books in the school library with the little rocket labels on them? Hands?
Years and years ago I found a Ray Bradbury book in my elementary school library and within a year I'd gone through all the sf books they had and started on mysteries. Believe, since then those authors have made back that "lost" money from my own ravenous book-buying and my recommendations to friends.
[ December 14, 2003, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
I didn't get my interest in Sci-Fi by reading books in a library. Mine came from watching Star Wars, Star Trek, and the books my father owned at home. Having a library to go to in order to read more science fiction was just a perk. I guess you could say my interest was hereditary, although not genetic.
I will admit that my knowledge of OSC came from reading books at a school library.
[ December 15, 2003, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: Occasional ]
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:Compensation is the hallmark of success if you really care about your work.
I don't think so, especially if you are talking about monetary compensation. There are deeper rewards, ones that actually matter. For example, I can't imagine ever comparing J.D. Salinger and Danielle Steel, and determining that J.D. Salinger is less successful. (I've never read a Danielle Steel novel, but the bookstores are lousy with them so I imagine that there is a murder of people somewhere who cherish them.)
I know I would gain much much more satisfaction as a writer just knowing that I was being widely read, with positive and innovative results, than if someone bought the exclusive rights to my book for 15,000,000 dollars. Okay, this is a lie because I don't think I have come up with a 15,000,000 dollar idea, but if I do, I think it'll be so important I'll turn my back on the money and look forward to getting out the message.
As an aside, the Berkeley city library system is fantastic, as in, I've never been in want of a book. (Though if I were, the University Library across the street is one of the largest in the nation behind the Library of Congress, so I think I could find it there.) I've also been charmed by the SF, Denver and Minneapolis library systems. The problems are suburbs. I don't know if Orange County has a decent library in that entire affluent expanse. In Mission Viejo, they cut the library's hours to an absurd window, more appropriately labeled a crack, in order to fund the World Cup soccer training center in '94.
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