Being a rancher, and someone who does have some dependency on the cattle market, obviously the news of one case of Mad Cow disease being found just made everyone in my area cringe.
Not so much because of the disease, but because of the public panic/reaction to the news (and the market reaction, of course).
In the screaming headlines, so many laypeople don't take the time to learn REAL risk. Like the fact that BSE is NOT transmitted to the "muscle cuts of meat" like steaks and roasts. You would have to have something that came from the spinal cord or brain to be at risk. And that the milk of a cow CANNOT carry BSE (this was a dairy cow) and that it CANNOT be transmitted cow-to-cow -- only through contaminated feed.
The public fallout from this is going to be a hundred times worse than the disease could ever be, with our extensive testing/re-testing and checks & balances systems we have in our food chain.
Farmgirl
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Why do they destroy entire herds if there's no cow-to-cow transmission possibility? Is it just the assumption that all the cows had the contaminated feed?
Also, is true that by "contaminated feed" is meant feed that was derived from an infected animal. In other words, ranchers are feeding cow parts to cows?
That's the part that always squicked me out. So I'd like to know if that's true.
Also, if the way to avoid this disease is to NOT feed animal by-products to feed animals, shouldn't we just stop that?
Also, how do wild animals like elk and buffalo contract the disease if it is only spread through contaminated feed? Or is that just the case for cows and the other critters can pass it one to the other?
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Who knows where the beef came from in the first place. It might have been imported.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: Why do they destroy entire herds if there's no cow-to-cow transmission possibility? Is it just the assumption that all the cows had the contaminated feed?
Exactly right
quote: Also, is true that by "contaminated feed" is meant feed that was derived from an infected animal. In other words, ranchers are feeding cow parts to cows?
That's the part that always squicked me out. So I'd like to know if that's true.
This is so -- in Britian (where the BSE originated) the feed had crushed bone meal/protein from slaughtered sheep that were infected. Some of those crushed pieces came from the infected brains/spine. After the British BSE outbreak, USA totally banned ALL feed that had "protein-added" components from bones, etc from other animals.
quote: Also, if the way to avoid this disease is to NOT feed animal by-products to feed animals, shouldn't we just stop that?
As I said, this IS illegal, and has been in OUR country for several years. They are now investigating the BIRTH place of this particular cow -- because it was purchased by the ranch, and may have been born in a country where this practice is still allowed. Apparently BSE can be dormant in a cow for 4+ years...
quote: Also, how do wild animals like elk and buffalo contract the disease if it is only spread through contaminated feed? Or is that just the case for cows and the other critters can pass it one to the other?
Well, for one, it is not uncommon for deer, etc. to share feed with cattle in open pasture (we have deer in our pasture all the time). Also many of these animals are......what is the technical word? Well, it means sometimes they eat the manure, which may also contain some "unprocessed" feed. By the way, I really don't know of any truly "wild" buffalo -- most herds, even in big ranges, are managed and supplemented. Elk free-range and easily intermix with cattle and their feed.
Farmgirl
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
The particular cow that tested postive came from a ranch near Yakima, Washington.
Their local paper The Yakima Herald has a pretty good overview of the situation for anyone who wants to read it.
FG
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I have some friends that are farmers in Oklahoma, I only hope they can hold out and not sell their meat animals until prices get better. Will you be able to Farmgirl?
AJ
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Yes, probably. Depends on how it goes.
Prices were WAY up recently, so most were making a good profit. Now it is going to dive, so it all depends on how many farmers used the "times of plenty" to prepare for the "times of famine"
FG
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I noticed this statement in a UPI article with the byline of Steve Mitchell dated Dec. 23, 2003:
quote:However, recent studies have suggested prions may occur, albeit in smaller numbers, in muscle tissue, and bits of brain and spinal cord tissue have been detected in hamburger meat.
Look, the cows get the prions in their feed, which enters through their stomachs and circulates throughout the entire body in the bloodstream. Prions may concentrate in the brain and spine, where they replicate, but how can they not exist throughout the body? And aren't there nerves in muscle?
It is one thing, of course, to be paranoid. It is another thing to bury your head in the sand, and refuse to recognize that the world is really, drastically changing.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Well, my understanding is that they aren't in a high enough CONCENTRATION anywhere else in the cow besides the brain/spine, to infect others. Not that they don't exist -- but just not in a large enough quantity to be a danger -- in other parts of meat.
And yes, brain & spine parts CAN be found in some hamburger or ground meats. That is why I specifically said "muscle cuts" before..
Farmgirl
[ December 24, 2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Farmgirl ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Ron, in what sense does this come under the rubric of "the world is drastically changing?"
I mean, the possibility of dying from infected food is nothing new. If anything, the chances of catching some disease from the food we eat is drastically reduced from the risk faced just 20 years ago.
I wouldn't want to return to the days prior to pasteurization, for example (granted that's more than 20 years ago, but you get the point).
The food processing business in America is actually under stricter controls now than it ever has been. Most problems are actually caught by the processors themselves. Not that I would put my trust in the corporate entities to be my biggest safeguard -- I'd much rather have government inspection like we do have.
The thing is, just because we ban a particular practice, there are any number of ways for the bad stuff to get through to us.
Prions are very very small proteins -- basically a virus if I recall correctly. The best way to avoid getting sick is to avoid exposure entirely. Thus the all-out bans on animals from countries with the infection. But also, it's a way for governments to stick it to each other. The French were screwing the British farmer legally by banning all imports from GB during the scare.
What we need is a good test for BSE presence in living animals. Right now, or so I've heard, they have to kill the animal to test it. And at that point, they might as well just assume it IS sick and not bother with the testing. Kill the animals and destroy the carcass so it isn't used consumed by humans or animals.
As soon as some lab invents a commercially viable test for BSE, things will get a lot better all around, I think.
Farmgirl, is the word you were thinking of coprophagia? (caprophagia)? I can't recall the speling, but it means shit-eating.
Merde!
So...have the French announced a boycott of American beef and dairy products yet?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Also many of these animals are......what is the technical word
There are two possibilities actually--coprophagus or merdiverous, depending on whether you want to go with Greek or the Latin derived term.
Am I right in thinking that the reason for the spike in US beef prices was the recent scare over Mad Cow disease in Canada?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Thanks for the right word, Bob.
You know, I don't begrudge the countries that are choosing to halt import of our beef until this thing is thoroughly researched. I can't blame them -- we did EXACTLY the same thing when it was in other countries. We quit importing British beef when it was originally found, and we stopped imports of Canadian beef when they had an isolated case, until the "all clear" was sounded.
So the countries are doing the right thing -- and this SHOULD be thoroughly researched, don't get me wrong. I just hope there isn't an OVER-reaction that goes on for a long time.
Personally, I probably think the odds of getting e-coli (from underprepared or wrongly-prepared meat) or samonella from something I ate are much higher than getting BSE.
Already some of the major news sites are bumping the Mad Cow story down a level and putting the new terror alert as lead story, so this may blow away from public awareness pretty quickly.
FG
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: There are two possibilities actually--coprophagus or merdiverous, depending on whether you want to go with Greek or the Latin derived term.
Am I right in thinking that the reason for the spike in US beef prices was the recent scare over Mad Cow disease in Canada?
I think the merdiverous word is the one I've heard my veterinarian use...
Actually, most of the spike in US beef lately is from, believe it or not, the huge demand for the Atkins diet (and similar diets) that are high in protein and low in carbs. Demand outstripped supply all the of the sudden.
The secondary factor was that last year was a horrible drought year in many parts of the country, and huge herds were sold off.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
/sidebar
Farmgirl, I had a friend going to OU who was from Little River,KS. His family was a farming family. He had never seen Princess Bride, and was rather attractive. The girls on the floor had fun torturing him calling him Farmboy for a while. Someone primed him to say "As you wish" and the results were hysterical. I think they may have had to sub-lease some of the farm though when his father died to make ends meet. I don't know if they were running cattle though. I hope this doesn't affect them adversely either. Farmers are truly *good people* in the best sense of the word.
/sidebar
AJ
[ December 24, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
*cough*I also have never seen Princess Bride*cough*
He wouldn't happen to still be a farmboy, unattached and middle-aged, would he? Little River is only about an hour away...
so few farmers left to pick from.. <SIGH>
FG
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I love cheeseburgers!
But I can deal with staying away from hamburger meat for awhile. But to not eat red meat?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
My personal opinion...
I would be more worried about things like hot dogs (my favorite food) than hamburger, unless you are in that area. Hamburger is usually processed/ground locally in order to be fresh, so unless you live in the great northwest .... I mean, I know most ground beef in this area is from cows in our area.
However, I worked for a short time for Ohse meats, which makes hot dogs, etc. -- and you wouldn't BELIEVE what all pieces of leftover meat they put in those. (I wouldn't eat hot dogs for awhile after working there, but I got over it) And we used to ship those all over the country.
FG
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
OH NO!
HOT DOGS?!
*dies*
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Were you planning hot dogs for Christmas dinner, Mac? Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I love natural casing hot dogs with new england style frankfurter rolls.
I don't know WHY, I just DO.
I have both in my freezer right now. A ready supply. To think...I'd have to GIVE THEM UP!?
Posted by Sheep (Member # 4433) on :
Are we absolutely, positively certain it's mad cows we're talking here? Not sheep? Am I safe?
Am I safe?!?!?
[cows. whatever.]
[ December 24, 2003, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Sheep ]
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
[ December 24, 2003, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
The really scary thing about BSEs is that the latency period is so long. That's why the truth is that it's probably already in the entire meat supply. By the time animals start getting sick from it and dying it's likely already way too late.
Secondly, there is no way to kill it by cooking. Cooking just doesn't seem to have any effect at all.
Thirdly it jumps species boundaries so easily. So that means you're not really safe eating other meats besides beef. Though I haven't heard of it in pigs or chickens, it's certainly in sheep. Are we sure it can't get into pigs or chickens? I don't think there's any real assurance of that. Chickens probably live a short enough time that the symptoms would not ever become obvious before they were slaughtered.
When I first read about it, it really increased the impetus behind my desire to stop eating meat altogether. I haven't been able to manage that, though, for more than a few months at a time. Then I start getting protein deficiencies. Also I always ate eggs and dairy, so, though less likely, it is conceivable that those could be an infection route too. And I don't see any way I could go vegan because of the restrictions I already have from being diabetic and unable to tolerate exogenous insulin. I guess we'll all take our chances.
The problem is really that so little is known about prions. I'm not even sure it's ever been proved that prions are what actually cause BSEs. I think it was an idea someone came up with and nothing else made any sense so it gained acceptance. Surely it's been studied intensively the last few years, though, since I've heard much about the state of science on the subject, so hopefully they know much more now.
Farmgirl, I'm sorry to be sort of taking the other side on your thread, but I do see BSEs as a risk. If it helps, I have thought they were a risk for a long time, and never believed they had succeeded in keeping it out of our meat supplies. So the fact that this case has been made public doesn't change my assessment of the risk much. I've never yet seen those sort of containment strategies succeed, whether with killer bees in Panama or the Medfly in California. Not that they aren't worth trying, though.
Farmgirl, do you have cows on your farm? Is there anything you will do differently as a result of this?
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
*runs around in circles*
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Well as long as I can eat my steak...
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
This particular case was found in a dairy cow, too. And though they aren't positive about anything, as far as I can tell, it's believed that dairy products don't transmit the infectious agent. They don't think you can get it from drinking milk.
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
I have a small question that is tangentially related to this thread:
Is it a new rule that the media must find something new to report every single day that is explicitly designed to create panic in the populace? And, it is it okay if I refuse to panic?
Sorry, I guess that was two questions. Anyway, I just wondered. And now back to our regular programming.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
They don't _think_? *eyes glass of milk*
What about Jell-o?
-pH
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
It's a scientific fact that 100% of the people born in the past 100 years will die.
Do I take unnecessary risks? I try not to. Do I believe that I can reduce ALL risks to insignificant levels? *disbelieving snort*
I obey traffic lights, I try to avoid artificial sweeteners (but I will consume them if they're in something I want ), I try to eat lots of fruits and vegetables. I try to eat red meat only in moderation, but I do eat it; I try to get most of my protein from fish, dairy, and soy sources (for both health and economic reasons).
Is there a risk from BSEs? A tiny one, perhaps. But the risk of salmonella or other food poisoning is so many times higher -- and so much easier to do something about.
I won't be changing any habits due to this. I'll still be buying hot dogs (mostly chicken and turkey, but sometimes beef) and ground meat.
And I still plan to drink tap water, drive on congested roads, live in California, cross the street, and do innumerable other things which could kill me at any moment. Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
The major media conglomerates are actually run by Chicken Little.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
The solution is simple, then.
Eat Chicken Little!
Dibs on the wings!
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
The cows HAVE been saying "Eat mor chikin"
Looks like they knew something we didn't know!
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
How can people eat hot dogs that aren't all beef? Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Because chicken lips are more appealing than Unknown Cow Organ #27?
I love chicken and turkey hot dogs. So do my kids. We'll remember not to save any for you. Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
"Parts is parts."
(Two points for someone UNDER 30 that can identify where that comes from.)
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
*tackles Shan*
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
*Giggles and tackles back*
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I think I'll save myself to panic about the flu and my lack of a protectionary shot. (runs around in circles as though hair is on fire)
But I'm still gonna eats the beef!
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Little River is only about an hour away...![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
), I try to eat lots of fruits and vegetables. I try to eat red meat only in moderation, but I do eat it; I try to get most of my protein from fish, dairy, and soy sources (for both health and economic reasons).![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)