This is topic Is LOTR racist? in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by S. Claus (Member # 6025) on :
 
top item......

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,106818,00.html



I need a vacation.
 

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Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
 

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Can you imagine how people of skin color, of Persian, Arab and East Asian ethnic background feel when they come out of these films where all the heroes are white and all the 'evil doers' are of dark skin," Hart writes.

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After watching the Lord of the Rings films I thank the universe and Mother Earth for the Rap/hip-hop culture and the counterbalancing influence the Rap/hip-hop culture has on the youth here in America and around the world.

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RACE             GOOD                       BAD
 
Valar  The 12 (Elbereth, Yavannah, etc.)   Melkor
 
Maia   good Istari, Tom Bombadil,         Sauron, Balrogs, Ungoliant
       Melian, Beorn
  
Wizards  Gandalf, Radagast             Saruman
 
Elves  Galadriel, Elrond, Cirdan, etc.  Kinslayers of the Noldor
 
Ents     Treebeard, Quickbeam, etc.    Huorns? not clear if Ents or trees
 
Trees    Quickbeam's beloved friends   Old Man Willow
 
Dwarves   Gimli, Balin, Thorin, etc.  Dwarves can be stubborn, greedy, etc.
 
Men      Aragorn, Elendil,             Southrons, Nazgul, 
         Faramir                       Denethor, bad Numenoreans,
                                       Bill Ferny
 
Hobbits  Frodo, Bilbo, Samwise, etc.   Smeagol,  
                                       Ted Sandyman, Lotho Baggins
 
Orcs      -----------                Grishnakh, Snaga, etc.

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[ December 30, 2003, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
That's a great point AK. I think there are no bad Orcs because Orcs are corrupted Elves. So in a way, Orcs are just bad Elves, which fits perfectly into your "there's something wrong in every race" theory.
 

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Posted by Valkyrie (Member # 5980) on :
 
Historically white has always been seen as good and black as evil. So LOTR is not particularly rasist. It goes back to humans fear of the night (black), you cant see whats out there. Where as in day (white) you can. It may not be fair, but its certinly been used befor by poeple that had no intentioin of being rasist. They just wanted to use a social phnomonm commen to almost all cultures.
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
There was a Maia chick who married an elf back in the olden days. What was her name? I can't remember it.

Jeff, jeff, fix my list! Make it more complete!

Idril and Tuor? They was elf and human, right? Who was the Maia / Elf couple?
 

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Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
 
Bill Ferny = Not a Hobbit. But other than that, I agree with AK.

And where in the world did he pick up the idea that the Uruk-hai are representative of Native Americans!? Because they're marked with the white hand?
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
Ah, Bill Ferny was a man? Okay, thanks, I will fix him.
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
ak, are you referring to Melian and Thingol?
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
Yes, thank you, Beren! I should have known you would remember.
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
One tends to remember one's in-laws during the holiday season.
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 


I still have a nagging feeling that Bill Ferny was a hobbit. Remember how they noted that the hobbits of Bree tended to have odd-sounding (to Shire ears) botanical names? Isn't Ferny one of those?
 

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Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
 
And then their was the one Black elf who kidnapped the elven princess and foreced her to live with him in the forest, until she escaped with her son, the son went to gondolin, became the great champion, betrayed gondolin, redeemed himself, got killed by a dragon (Am I confusing two people here, I'm not sure?). But the point is their was a dark elf.
 

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Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
 
Uhhh... (checks) They describe him as a swarthy, sneering fellow.. But I think other than that they don't say. Hm. But Ferny is mentioned as one of the names that is strangely foresty for the hobbits of Bree. So maybe you're right, AK.
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 

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what about the premise from the BOM that the Native Americans were the lost tribe of Israel?

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Just wanted to clear up a common misconception. The Book of Mormon, according to my reading of it, never says that all Native Americans are direct descendants of Israel. At best it says that there are a finite (but not necessarily huge) number of Native Americans somewhere in North, Central or South America that have a little bit of Israelite blood somewhere in their remote genetic history.
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
Abby, I read back over that last night and it turns out that it's the HUMANS of Bree who have the odd botanical names. You were right, Bill Ferny is human.
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
And as far as wizards go, JRRT inferred that Alatar and Pallando weren't on the "good" side. And they were Blue Wizards.

Perhaps he's biased against depressed people? Smurfs? Vegas pipe-thumping acts?
 

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Posted by Lime (Member # 1707) on :
 
If you're out to write a myth for England set 7000 years ago, then in order to be accurate for the geography, the people you'll primarily be dealing with as the good guys will be white. And people that came from the South or the East would be yellow- or dark-skinned... you know, given the geography. But nevermind that for a second.

But of course, the article treats this as a new and shocking angle on a pop culture item - and attempts to use it to illustrate that our "race relations" are as poor as ever.

Firstly, this fellow isn't the first to point the finger and dance like a little school girl going, "Ooh! Ooh! Lookit! Oooooo!" People who are new to Tolkien's work (and have not done their research - strangely enough, there is a large number of journalists in this group) have brought up the race issue before, simply because they can.

Had they read the book, they would have come across Sam's small speech concerning the Southron that fell off the Oliphaunt and died - and their opinions would be quite different, perhaps. Speaking of, can anyone find me the full text of that speech? Or Sam's original speech from the book? I'm gonna post on that article and I want some ammunition.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Rhaegar,

The black elf you refer to was Eöl. He was called black because he hated the Sun, not due to his coloring. Elves of the light were all those who went to Valinor before the sun and moon rose. The others were "moriquendi", elves of the dark or twilight, because Middle Earth had no natural light other than stars at that time.

Similarly, the Black Numenoreans were not physically dark. And in the Silmirallion, most Men in Beleriand were evil - there were only three houses of Elf-friends. All were white (which makes sense, because these were the people who happened to emigrate to the northwest of the land).

Remember, Numenor was destroyed because the leader and most of the people worshipped Sauron and tried to invade Valinor. Gondor and Arnor were founded by the exiles.

The Sons of Feanör (and Feanör himself, for that matter) could be considered evil, since they slayed their own kind to steal their boats, and then destroyed Thingol's and Melian's realm. So there were evil elves beyond the orcs and a few outliers.

Bill Ferny was definitely human.

Also, remember these are not just different races for the most part but different species, with radically different physical characteristics, cultures, and creations.

No independent, living creature was created by anyone other than Eru (God). Aulë made the dwarves, but they were given independent life when Aulë submitted to Eru. Morgoth (and Sauron and Sarument, too) did not create new life forms but bred them by twisting existing forms of life. Early commentary on genetic engineering, perhaps?

Dagonee
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
"Then suddenly straight over the rim of their sheltering bank, a man fell, crashing through the slender trees, nearly on top of them. He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward, green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword.

It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from, and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace -- all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind."

The Two Towers p. 269 Hardback edition, ISBN 0-395-48933-4.

[ December 30, 2003, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
Dagonee, they were different species, but they interbred. So take your pick, race or species. There is never any agreement among biologists about what constitute subspecies and what qualify as independent species, anyway, so I follow Tolkien and call them races.

And yes, there were many evils among the elves throughout the history of the world, not just a few. They were no less complicated and morally complex than humans, they were just an elder race. Because they were so longlived, and had been around longer than Men, they had some of the sorrow of age, and some of the wisdom, by the time of the events depicted in the Lord of the Rings.

I think the idea that LotR is racist is one that even a very superficial reading of the books can easily refute. I wonder why this idea persists.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

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I wonder why this idea persists.

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Because English Departments have to justify their existence somehow.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
I think you may be stretching pretty far to try and remove the racism. LotR is pretty clear in suggesting that certain races are naturally better or worse than others. There are exceptions, but wouldn't you call someone who believes the vast majority of blacks are stupider than the vast majority of whites a racist? Would you refrain from calling them racist if they admitted that "well, okay, there are one or two good blacks"?

The Orcs and Goblins are bad. The Men and Elves are good. Hobbits are usually lazy. Men are more corruptable than elves. Dwarves are generally greedy. You sure aren't denying Tolkein describes the races as such, are you?
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
Yes, I think Tolkien doesn't say any such thing as that. Even a cursory reading of LotR shows that people of all races in Middle Earth can rise above their circumstances, can show goodness and nobility that surpass all expectations, just as they can here and now, or they can fall away and be lost to folly and evil. How can you see racism there?
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Which orcs or trolls ever did anything against their evil nature in tolkien?
 

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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
Would you see racism if I said "Even black people can rise above their circumstances and become as intelligent as white people"?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
For that matter, dwarves as a race are corrupted by their desire for material goods. Check the Silmarillion.

Tolkien's work IS racist, again, in the purest sense of the word. The question is not whether it is, but whether this is unforgivable.
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
But most mythologies do make short hand observations of races/species: Dragons are evil (European mythology), dragons are wise (Chinese mythology), leprechauns are tricksters, unicorns are pure, etc.

Are there examples of fantasy stories written during or before Tolkien's time that does not use such short hands?

[ December 30, 2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
Tres, that's not at all what I said. Put it like this, instead. "People of all backgrounds, cultures and ethnicities, including Asians, Europeans, Africans, rich and poor, educated and simple, can rise above their circumstances and display goodness and nobility that surpass all expectations, or they can fall away into folly and evil." Is that a racist statement? I believe that is the only way you can interpret Tolkien's beliefs as reflected in his writings.

[ December 30, 2003, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
 

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Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
 
From the article:

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a "crusade" against the "evil doers" in nations that white people have been invading, terrorizing, raping and pillaging in for 5000 years with zero provocation,

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In fact all Europe's mathematics, reading and writing and technological advancements in transportation and warfare are all based on African and Asian concepts. The reason that Western medicine has not advanced to the enlightened technological level as Chinese herbal medicine...

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Tresopax said:
I think you may be stretching pretty far to try and remove the racism. LotR is pretty clear in suggesting that certain races are naturally better or worse than others. There are exceptions, but wouldn't you call someone who believes the vast majority of blacks are stupider than the vast majority of whites a racist? Would you refrain from calling them racist if they admitted that "well, okay, there are one or two good blacks"?

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Tresopax said:
The Orcs and Goblins are bad. The Men and Elves are good. Hobbits are usually lazy. Men are more corruptable than elves. Dwarves are generally greedy. You sure aren't denying Tolkein describes the races as such, are you?

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The point you’re missing is that in Tolkien’s world, the statements you listed are generally true (except for the Hobbits being lazy – that’s a distortion ). They’re not prejudiced stereotypes – they are facts built into the makeup of each species. And since Tolkien created them all except Man, he gets to say what is true and what’s not about them.

Tolkien was an extremely devout Catholic. As such, he believed in the doctrine of Original Sin – that mankind is fallen and required the intervention of Christ for salvation. This underlying belief requires him to make broad sweeping moral statements applying to a whole people, since ultimately he believes no mortals are righteous on their own. He alludes specifically to the Fall in the Silmarillion, and has stated that all his stories with men take place post-Fall, pre-Incarnation.

Both Eru and Yavana (sp?) chastise Aule for making the dwarfs without consulting them, since Aule’s limited understanding of life and natural things means the dwarves will not understand or appreciate these things either. Tolkien believed that different beings had different natures. He absolutely did not believe that any human being, or class of human beings, were better or worse than another.

When he wanted to publish The Hobbit in Germany (pre-WWII), he was asked to certify his ancestry. His response:

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I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is, Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.

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Originally posted by Danogee
The point you’re missing is that in Tolkien’s world, the statements you listed are generally true (except for the Hobbits being lazy – that’s a distortion ). They’re not prejudiced stereotypes – they are facts built into the makeup of each species. And since Tolkien created them all except Man, he gets to say what is true and what’s not about them.

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Tresopax said:
So, it's not racism if it's true?

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Originally posted by Tresopax
So, it's not racism if it's true?

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The point is, it is easily conceivable that different sentient species would have different intellectual abilities. Pointing out these differences would not be racist.

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Absolutely not. I completely concur.

I'm just stirring up the tempest a little.

The whole discussion has been based on hypothetical, imaginative, fanciful works which all-comers keep trying to mesh with "real life". And in considering a "hypothetical" intelligence test, I chuckle - since there really is no way to design one that would be fair, unbiased and objective. That's all -
 

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Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
 
To tie this back in with the Tolkien argument, were they any examples that orcs were necessarily stupider than humans?

Well, okay, they weren't bright enough to avoid the giant rocks.

But I think the big problem here is that orcs are portrayed not only as stupider or uglier, but that they're more evil (note how the first Uruk-Hai we see strangles the pureblood orc who frees him from his birthing sac), less decent (note how all the orcs killed each other on a whim when Frodo was being held prisoner, and all over the mithril shirt -- which they didn't even understand was mithril), and more cowardly (observe their frightened reactions to the Rohirrim and subsequent fleeing) than men are.

It makes for a pretty movie where we can cheer guilt-free at the slaughter of the poor bastards, but in my opinion, it's Tolkien's greatest plot weakness.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Lalo, you really need to get the books and read them. The movie left out many subtle nuances, and painted some things too black-n-white.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Actually, I always felt that the books painted orcs pretty black-and-white, too. What redeeming moments are the orcs or trolls given in the books? At what point do we see an orc show mercy, or compassion, or a moment of human feeling?
 

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Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
 
I've read the books. Did I miss, as Tom asked, a moment when orcs acted on any opportunity to be kind or decent?
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
I wouldn't call it "redemption" - but I think Tolkien tried to make it clear that orcs were twisted versions of elves and therefore wickedly miserable (and wicked). They were failed creations. Saruman played on this and then bred orcs to men to get his Uruk-Hai which was another nastily failed attempt at divine creation. And for some reason, it was the interbreeding to men that made them even nastier and more dangerous. Chew on that one . . . yuck.

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To tie this back in with the Tolkien argument, were they any examples that orcs were necessarily stupider than humans?

Well, okay, they weren't bright enough to avoid the giant rocks.

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But I think the big problem here is that orcs are portrayed not only as stupider or uglier, but that they're more evil (note how the first Uruk-Hai we see strangles the pureblood orc who frees him from his birthing sac),

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less decent (note how all the orcs killed each other on a whim when Frodo was being held prisoner, and all over the mithril shirt -- which they didn't even understand was mithril),

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and more cowardly (observe their frightened reactions to the Rohirrim and subsequent fleeing) than men are.

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Well, as to that cowardly business, it's a good thing a bunch of men were cowardly the first time around so that Aragorn would have an army to collect, hmmm?

At any rate, of course orcs were nasty, slimy, yucky creatures. They were DESIGNED to be that way by nasty, ugly, slimy characters - can you fault them for being what they were made to be? Gee - (sniff)

(Edited to add: I don't consider orcs a plot weakness - in fact, I think their integral to showing just how evil Sauron - and Saruman - are and why they need to be declawed.)

[ December 31, 2003, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: Shan ]
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

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Lalo said
It makes for a pretty movie where we can cheer guilt-free at the slaughter of the poor bastards, but in my opinion, it's Tolkien's greatest plot weakness.

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Almost any one-dimensional character is a plot weakness – I’ll agree with you there.

But I think the utter lack of any Orcish redeeming feature is supposed to be a testament to both the power and monstrosity of Morgoth/Sauron/Saruman. The creation of the Orcs was considered the worst and most hateful to God of all Morgoth’s deeds – including all the deaths he caused, the corruption of Feanor, and the temptation of Man (i.e., being the snake in the garden). I think the corruption of Elves to make Orcs was worse than the corruption of Man because the former was more complete than the latter.

This may not be enough to remove the weakness entirely; I think it alleviates it to a great degree.

Also, while there may not be any morally redeeming scene with an Orc, Ugluk at least is shown to be brave, courageous, and loyal to Saruman.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
 
Who would the orcs show kindness to?
 

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Posted by Maccabeus (Member # 3051) on :
 
This isn't exactly a redeeming moment for the orcs...but perhaps it is, in a way. At the battle of Helm's Deep, when the trees are coming to tear into the Dark Lord's army, Aragorn calls out to warn them--and he doesn't make any distinctions. Aragorn is concerned even for the orcs. Likewise, at some point, Gandalf says, "As for me, I pity even his slaves."

In other words, there is some sense in which even orcs and trolls are worthy of pity; they are not utterly worthless and evil.
 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
I want to point out that when I refer to people rising above their circumstances, I mean just that. Nothing about being of an inferior race or bloodline. Circumstances means situation or environment. I feel like what I said got corrupted into something revolting, and then people argued against that.

I was thinking mostly of Sam, and how he was from a rather poor family and worked as a gardener, and never got much education, and yet because he was so valiant and loyal he ended up the greatest hero of all.

From his work, Tolkien seem clearly to be ANTI-racist, and ANTI-classist.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Anne Kate, is it your contention that orcs and trolls are not clearly identified as inferior bloodlines in Tolkien's work?
 

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Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
 
...how embarrassing...
 

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Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
 

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Would you see racism if I said "Even black people can rise above their circumstances and become as intelligent as white people"?

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