One of my best friends from grad school found out today that his dad is gay. He was never close with his dad and he always knew that his parents frequently fought over his dad's affairs when he was younger. But he never knew those affairs were with men until today, when his dad confessed to him and his sister.
My friend is 28 and practically engaged to a wonderful woman. He is not a homophobe or anything. We don't have any close friends who are gay, and to be honest, gay issues do make us uncomfortable, but we have always maintained that what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms should not affect their legal rights.
But my friend is completely flipping out about this. He questions his relationship with his parents and his own relationship with his girlfriend. I tried telling him that just because his dad is gay doesn't mean his relationship with his dad for the past three decades have been a lie.
I really hope he can pull through this without hating his father. Does anyone here have similar experiences dealing with a close friend or family member coming out of the closet?
[ January 08, 2004, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
I think there might (I'm being serious) some sort of support group, depending on what part of the country you're living in. Call your local crisis clinic or mental health clinic. They usually have listings of services and support groups.
I could be way off base here, but just as a reminder - your friend is probably going through the grieving process right now. Shock, denial, anger, sadness, fear, and hopefully getting to acceptance.
You're a good friend. Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
If I'm reading this correctly, he knew his father had been having affairs, and that didn't make the father-son relationship a lie -- but he finds out his father has been having affairs with men, and he flips out?
The guy needs to ask himself why the gender of his dad's affairs matters so much to him. Maybe his dad's homosexuality forces the guy to question his own sexuality, and his discomfort with that kind of introspection is causing him to flip out. If he's going to hate his dad for being homosexual -- which he apparently does, having tolerated his father's affairs until he found out they were homosexual -- he really needs to re-evaluate what the definition of a homophobe is.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You know, a guy I was friends with from 5th grade until midway through college (we drifted apart after he joined a frat), Michael, recently came out of the closet. It wasn't a huge surprise to me--more of a "well I thought so" experience really--but many of our old mutual friends were surprised by it. One guy, who'd been friends with Michael as long as I had been, and had drifted away from him at about the same time, reacted really badly, generally freaking out, wondering loudly whether he could himself be confident of any aspect of his own character in light of this. He's a graphic artist, and has always been intensely creative and talented. He started speculating as to whether or not he really enjoyed creating art, in light of Michael's announcement, and proceeded to pout and get fairly drunk over the course of the evening.
Posted by HenryW (Member # 6053) on :
Based on your friend's response I do not think you should discount homophobia - it is the first best answer. That being the case (note they put phobia in the word) some sort of professional help would probably be a good start. The end result may not be a complete eradication of the fear, but he should learn how to handle it.
Irrational responses to common issues can be dangerous - I hope he gets help or quickly manages to help himself.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
*pies Lalo*
Finding out that you have been lied to for years and that the world is not what you thought it was is very disturbing. Sexuality is at the center of much of our psychology, along with our parents. To dismiss his freaking out as, oh, deserving it because if he was sensitive he wouldn't mind, is sacrificing a human being to serve a political agenda.
It's like those families where the child grows up and finds out as an adult that the person he thought was his mother is his grandmother, and the person he thought was his sister is his mother. If the relationship is wonderful, it feels like a sham. How could they lie for so long? If the relationships are strained, it's one more nail in the coffin of trust and honesty.
Plus, sons, unconciously or not, model themselves after their fathers, or else choose to NOT. A radical change in a parent's identity means a questioning and a rediscovery of an individual's own identity.
In other words, no wonder he's freaking out. Can he talk to somebody?
[ January 08, 2004, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
*JH, why [pie] Lalo? (okay, now it's a pie, but still an ad hominem attack which gives your argument a frame that is less likely to influence those who do not already agree with you. Not that I've never done it, just a suggestion is all.)*
I never thought of Homophobia as a legitimate anxiety disorder before. Folks always talk about it as a moral flaw. If it is anxiety, it means the son has some kind of presently unconscious belief that he thinks is a general truth about the universe turning on him.
For instance, it could be that he thinks homosexuality is genetic (it does happen to be a favored hypothesis right now but I think it's supposed to be through the maternal line anyway). Or it could be that he is being confronted by every non-straight thought or experience he himself has had.
Whether it is over gayness or not, hating one of your parents is worth seeing a counselor about. I know I have a few times.
[ January 08, 2004, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
I changed it to pieing because it seemed both more specific (where was I kicking him?) and more Hatrackian. Yes, it's exactly what it looks like. I threw a pie at him because I didn't like what he said.
And I did it because this is a human being who has just had some major assumptions turned upside down, and I felt that Lalo was saying it was his fault for being freaked out. If your family falls apart, and this is from experience, that is NOT to time to start beating yourself up for being hurt by it. It would probably be much more convenient for many people to pretend that it doesn't hurt anyone and if it does it is their fault, but you don't get to pick how someone emotionally reacts to something. Not even yourself.
[ January 08, 2004, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
See, but it doesn't sound like he's just now finding out that his family is "falling apart". He always knew his father was cheating on his mother, and in the context of the first post, didn't seem to be "flipping out" about it.
From the first post, it sounds like his only reason for getting so worked up and questioning his relationship with his father is simply what his father was having affairs with, not that his father was having affairs.
And to me, that does sound unreasonable and homophobic. If you're going to start believing that everything you knew about your father was a lie, let it be because he cheated on your mother. That's a far, far worse crime than being attracted to Plumbing A instead of Plumbing B.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
ALR, it's a change and a shock. This isn't a dispassionate observation about a neighbor that's none of his business anyway; it's his father. If nothing else, he's been lied to and his parent's marriage was an utter sham.
Sexuality is part of identity, and your parents - your relationship with them and your indepence from them - is another big part of identity. Yes, finding his father is gay can easily rock a person's own identity.
It's inconvenient and unpolitical to have people be hurt after you've lied to them for years, I know, but you can't blame him for it.
In answer to the question, family is family, though. It's possible for him to come out of this and still talk to his father and be something of a family, but it might take a while and that's okay. He shouldn't be pushed at all or made to feel guilty for feeling betrayed. It's his father's job to be patient and understanding about the repercussions of his revelation. In other words, no, he shouldn't write off his dad, but he also shouldn't fake anything. There's been enough shamming.
[ January 08, 2004, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Even the Christian view on this is that the guy should still love his father. It may take some time to process. And loving someone doesn't always mean you can spend lots of time with them. My favorite line from "Finding Nemo" is "It's because I like you that I don't want to be with you. It's a complicated emotion."
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Yes, but everyone understands that Marlin really DOESN'T like Dorry, pooka. . .
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
While I agree with Javert on most of this -- it's a major shock this guy has to come to terms with -- I'm still going to pick on one line.
"If nothing else, he's been lied to and his parent's marriage was an utter sham."
He knew his parent's marriage was a sham already. His dad being gay shouldn't make it more of a sham. I'm not blaming him for his reaction, as you said he'll feel what he feels no matter what. I'm just wondering why it was a marriage when it was only serial infidelity and a sham only after he admitted he was gay.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
How about even more of a sham than he already thought?
[ January 08, 2004, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
Posted by BobbyK (Member # 5970) on :
This guy's world was already shaken by the splitting (I'm assuming) of his parents. That's reality warp one. It hardens people, makes them distrustful. (General statement alert. and a bit late)Already, foundation becomes air and everything becomes a question. Warp 2, Dad's gay. I won't discount homophobia, but do doubt it. It's more than perfectly natural to be somewhat revolted at such a discovery. The fact the parent is gay is the face. Further betrayal(of self and mother from the admitting parent)is the motive for the "freaking out".
[Edit - Clarity]
[ January 08, 2004, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: BobbyK ]
Posted by BobbyK (Member # 5970) on :
Oh, advice. Support group, therapist, a family member he can trust(Mom?). This guy needs some support. You're a good friend.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Javert - fair enough. Gonna be a shock, no matter what, and even without homophobia involved it would be tough to immediately see it as anything other than another betrayal of his mother.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Thanks for the support everyone. You all raised very legitimate points and I have incorporated many of your thoughts into my conversation with my friend this morning.
I helped him set up an appointment with my therapist this morning. (As Pooka pointed out, some of us already see therapists because we hate our parents for completely mundane reasons). I also asked him whether he was more upset at his father's sexuality or the fact that he now has to revisit his childhood memories of his father's infedelity. He said he was confused and angered by both aspects of the situation.
He was fairly young (a sophmore in High School) when his parents fought over his father's affairs. I think his family just suppressed that period of their lives and never really discussed it, until now. So he is shocked not only by his father's sexuality but also with the prospect of facing unresolved trust issues.
I don't think my friend is a homophobe. He has, however, lived a pretty sheltered life. His experience with gay people are limited to what he has seen on Will and Grace and MTV Real Life. Rationally he understands that just because his father is gay does not mean that he is too. However, he now evaluates all the problems he has with his girlfriend with the question, "am I just acting this way because I'm not straight?"
I told him that he was probably straight, but if he was gay, so what? I told him I loved him not because he is straight, but because he can quote the Silmarillion at will and yet he dares to make fun of people who dress up for LOTR line parties.
I think he deserves to hate his father based on what he has done but not because of what he is. However, that fine intellectual distinction is easier said than done, especially when you are dealing with a parent, someone you have based your entire identity on.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
I'm having a really hard time making the jump from "I feel betrayed because my father was lying to me" to "I question my own relationship because my father was lying to me." I can easily see "I feel extremely upset and betrayed by my father's lies, and I question my relationship with him and his relationship with my mother because of it" pretty much regardless of what the lies are about. I suppose if the lies were "My parents have a happy marriage" I might be able to see that causing a person to say "The relationship I hold as my model for all relationships is a lie, what does that mean about my own relationship with my girlfriend/fiancee/wife?" But if a person has already come to terms with the fact that his parents' marriage is a sham, I don't see why that person should then jump to such a question if he is a confident heterosexual with no homophobic tendencies.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Hmm....
It doesn't sound like he'd come to terms with what happened before, though.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Take into account that he's had times to come to terms with the affairs. Maybe he freaked out about them then?
I have a hard time condemning people for initial reactions to something shocking. See how he reacts once he has time to come to grips with it.
In the meantime, the suggestions for counseling seem like good ones. Parental stuff is always hard.
Dagonee
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
"I have a hard time condemning people for initial reactions to something shocking. See how he reacts once he has time to come to grips with it."
Very good point.
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
At least his dad stuck with his family through all these years instead of being like
"Well sorry honey, i know we've got all these kinds together and stuff, but Im a homosexual and am gonna abandon my responsibilities for a hot trick named Tim."
But at the same time, I have a good friend who was married and has two children and came out of the closet two years ago, but he NEVER cheated on his wife.
As far as you friend not ending up hating his dad, well, the same rule for people having privacy in their bedrooms applies to the inside of people's heads. Even if he puts on an outward appearance of preserving a relationship with his father, that doesnt mean that he wont resent him silently. Then again, maybe he wont. But youll never truly know.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Yes. And it's easy to sit back and make assumptions from where we are, without knowing the details of the situation or history. I do hope things turn out alright for your friend, Beren.
[Edit: This was meant to be in response to Dagonee.]
[ January 08, 2004, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: saxon75 ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Beren, it's already been said you're a good friend but it bears repeating. I think the suggestion to set up an appointment with your counselor was excellent.
From personal experience, we had something happen to us recently regarding my father that shocked us to the core. We found out he had stolen thousands of dollars from us in the brief time he was "helping" my husband in his business and had access to the bank accounts.
Not only was I completely devastated by this betrayal, but I immediately began reliving all the things he had done to me in the past, specifically verbal and physical abuse. For years I'd just tucked that away, pretended like it never happened and carried on a normal parent/adult child relationship.
Your friend is probably going through exactly that. This shock has triggered the memories of everything he's suppressed. He will need some professional help and I'm so relieved he'll be getting some.
I've been in therapy for over a year, and still struggling with all this. He'll need the support of his friends for quite a while.
As for why he is questioning his relationship, Javert mentioned that boys grow up patterning their behavior after their dads - that's perfectly normal. Learning his Dad's identity is not what he thought it was will lead to him questioning his own. A good therapist will help him sort all this out.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*hugs belle* *hugs beren*
Belle is wise!
AJ
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:saxon75 said: Yes. And it's easy to sit back and make assumptions from where we are, without knowing the details of the situation or history. I do hope things turn out alright for your friend, Beren.
[Edit: This was meant to be in response to Dagonee.]
*blinks* *looks for an assumption he made* *sees a question, not an assumption* *wonders what the hell saxon75 is talking about*
The timeframe issue is relevant regardless of the situation as it occurred before.
Dagonee
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
When I said "we" I was referring to all of the people speculating on whether or not Beren's friend is homophobic. That is, as opposed to you. Perhaps "assumptions" was the wrong word as well. My point was that we don't really know what's going on now or what went on before or much about any of the people involved, and making armchair psychological evaluations of a person we don't know seems at the least a bit hasty and insensitive. The "Yes" was the only part specifically directed at you, intended to agree with your statement:
quote:I have a hard time condemning people for initial reactions to something shocking. See how he reacts once he has time to come to grips with it.
I apologize for being unclear.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Thanks for the explanation. My response contained leftover aggression from a nasty talk with my lawyer about some B.S. Sorry.
Dagonee
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
A general question: Does homophobic imply latently homosexual?
About Marlin and Dorry, I don't think it can be assumed that he doesn't like her. This is after the shark meeting, her retrieval of the mask from Bruce, her helping him to go down the chasm after the mask, and of course reading the mask. It's true he is trying to get away from her, but endangers himself to save her shortly thereafter. He may not know he likes her. I grant you that. Edit: the role of dorry was originally supposed to be voiced by a man
[ January 08, 2004, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
quote:Does homophobic imply latently homosexual?
No. And in its common usage today, it doesn't even imply a phobia.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
You know, I heard of a study that showed a correlation between extreme anti-homosexual tendencies and latent homosexuality. Supposedly they presented a bunch of subjects with homosexual images and measured the degree of arousal produced, and the ones that became the most aroused were the ones who were the most vocally against homosexuality.
Unfortunately, I got all of this second-hand, so I can't link it, and, if this was a real and well-conducted study, I don't know whether any refutations exist.
[Edit: It's also important to reiterate that correlation does not imply causation.]
[ January 08, 2004, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: saxon75 ]
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Ie homophobia:
I had a drama professor who said, "There are two reasons why a person would be upset about homosexuals. Either the homosexuals were hitting on them too much, or they were'nt hitting on them enough."
This strange man had a witty remark for every occasion. I took three different courses with him. By the end of the third I had written down all his amusing sayings and ancedotes. I numbered them. My notes were just a list of those numbers matching the same old stories he told us that day.
As far as your friend... There is a woman at work who went through a similar revelation many years ago. When she talks of it (and she loves to tell people her problems, but rarely talks of this), she is still obviously uncomfortable with it, though she has regained the relationship with her father.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I had always thought it was a general term for people who react negatively to the subject of homosexuality. Certainly it can be a focus of obsessive compulsive behavior (such as the character in "As Good as it Gets"). It just seems that when some people use it, they mean that the homophobe is a homosexual in denial. Note "seems".
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Yeah, that is often the implication. It's a not-so-subtle of insulting people. As in, "You disagree because you secretly want it and are scared to admit it." It's a put down.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Well that would raise the question (at least it would to me anyways) does arousal to homosexual images really mean you're more hoosexual then someone who isn't aroused?
Hobbes Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
That question doesn't strike you as even a little bit ridiculous?
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I've never used homophobic to mean someone who doesn't like homosexuality. I've always used homophobic, when I've used it, to mean someone who hates homosexuality without reason. -phobia, to me, always suggests irrational fear.
Not everyone who disapproves/condemns homosexuality is homophobic, and not all homophobes are secretly gay.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
What I getting from hatrack is that homophobia is an ambiguous term. Though it seems that if it is irrational, depending on how you read irrational, it doesn't make sense to judge someone as evil based on that. I mean irrational in the sense that one does not immediately know why one feels that way. Of course, some people call irrational those who choose not to analyze why they might feel a certain way.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Out of curiosity, what is the difference, in your mind, between one who irrationally condemns homosexuality and one who does so rationally? That is, could you give an example of the differences in their motivations?
[Edit: That was to Chris.]
[ January 08, 2004, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: saxon75 ]
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
A phobia is an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation. Using homophobia to describe every negative reaction to homosexuality is engaging in hyperbole.
Because of the way many people in the gay movement use the term "homophobia" the term has become little more than a epitet. I think it hurts the movement to protect the rights of gay people when gays so show little tolerance for anyone who disapproves of their lifestyle for any reason. You can't build a tolerant and accepting society by slingin epitets at everyone who disagrees with you.
I think that your friends reaction is pretty normal for a person who has just found out that one of their parents lead a secret life. It would probably held your friend to talk about his feelings and why he is so upset. The talking alone might help him to work through the problem. If he won't talk with you or you don't feel comfortable asking him hard questions, encourage him to go see a counsellor or a clergy member.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:That question doesn't strike you as even a little bit ridiculous?
Well I guess it was phrased a bit ridiculously. The question should've been: if you've gotten married, had children and kept faithful to your spouse, does arousal to homosexual images make you homosexual, or has your life's choices defined you as straight whatever your body has to say?
Hobbes Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
I see. So what you're really asking is whether homosexuality is something that you are or only something that you do.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I think it's worth remembering that hatred does not equate fear.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
This gets to the question of "what is Homosexuality." If its a sin/crime/act then no matter what you are attracted to, as long as you don't act on that attraction, you are straight. If it is an inborn desire, genetic or environmental imperative, then you are living a total lie, (lieing is also a sin)and you are homosexual. Of course, this all belongs in another thread.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Pretty much Saxon, yes. My answer would be something you do, but of course I'm not short-sited enough to think that makes it true.
Hobbes Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:If it is an inborn desire, genetic or environmental imperative, then you are living a total lie, (lieing is also a sin)and you are homosexual.
I don't think that's true at all, I mean humans have evolved as very good killing machines, that's how we survive. Is nnot slaughtering someone we're ticked at when that is our body's urge living a lie? (Note: I'm not equating homosexuality to murder so don't even think it. )
OK, you're right, this belongs in another thread, I'll drop it. I promise.
Hobbes Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
A friend told me that 10% of people are gay, 10% are straight, and 80% are bisexual. She is bi, so this might just be really biased, but if this is true, how would you answer Hobbes' question?
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Short-sited is when your Web site scrolls from side to side instead of up and down.
It's great for art sites, to show the works as in a gallery.
------
I agree with blackwolve's friend that sexual attraction is a gradient and not a black and white issue.
[ January 08, 2004, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
It does bear repeating Beren, you are being a really good friend here. Advising a therapist is a good idea certainly, and I think really just being there and listening to whatever he says will go along way to help him realize his realtioinships with everyone aren't changed by this, only his father's.
[EDIT: Kat, when are you going to write your landmark so we can start seeing your normal sn ove your posts? ]
Hobbes
[ January 08, 2004, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I think irrational applies to fear, not condemnation. Condemnation also does not mean hatred.
On the arousal study, it would be interesting to know how they get their controls for how aroused a person is, if showing homosexual stimulus supposedly arouses them more than... what? I guess these researchers have some standard for degree of arousal based on all kinds of factors. Anyway, we don't have the source so I think it's moot.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
(((Belle)))
Thanks for sharing that with us. I hope therapy will help you and my friend a great deal.
I think some of the arguments developing on this thread is an example of how much emotion the topic of homosexuality can invoke.
Many of you have given homosexuality a lot of thought (see e.g. the countless homosexuality threads) and have, through discussions, discovered your own views on the subject.
My friend never gave the topic of homosexuality much thought in his life. So all of this hit him like a ton of bricks. This proves reading and posting on Hatrack is an essential part of preparing yourself for life's little surprises. Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
That can only be answered if we were to agree that homosexuality is a "lifestyle" and not a sexual leaning, Hobbes. If you're married and still aroused by sexual images of members of your same sex, in my book that makes you homosexual, whether your chosing to live that life or not. Just like if I'm not actively in a relationship, or pursuing one, with a partner of the opposite sex, yet am still aroused and attracted to members of the opposite sex, I'm a heterosexual.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
pooka - You're right, condemnation doesn't equal hatred or fear, but a lot of people (not here, that I've noticed, thankfully) use the whole "Love the sinner, hate the sin" excuse to cover up the abuse they heap on homosexuals.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Some of us use that here, but we actually do love the sinner, unlike many people who focus on the second half of that statement. In itself, it's a sound statement. It's derided because people who are acting in ways blatantly opposed to it use it to justify their actions.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
(nods) Yup. That's what I meant.
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
According to Brittanica, it's not your actions--you can sleep with a member of the same sex but still be considered heterosexual--but your primary attraction.
I thought we were probably due for another homosexuality thread here.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
But we alreay have one. I think 2 is overdoing it a bit!
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
I beleive the standard number is around five. Or two with titles openly declaring the subject and three derailed threads.
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