One of my coworkers was just complaining about his son spending too much time on the computer playing Morrowind. The kid,who is 16, has (very limited) set hours during which he is allowed to play on the computer, and ever since he got Morrowind for Christmas, he's been begging extra play time at every opportunity. In addition, he's been lingering on the computer past his play window, and has gotten up in the middle of the night and snuck down to play the game several times, saying, when caught, that it was because he couldn't sleep.
As a punishment for all of this, my co-worker is considering deleting all of his son's saved games. Does that seem like a horrific over-reaction to anybody else? I mean, the kid *is* breaking the family rules (although they do seem unfairly restrictive to me), but the punishment being contemplated seems terribly unfair to me. If my parents had known enough about computers to do this to me when I was a kid (and had been of a temperament to actually do something like that to me), I know that I would have been furious, and would probably still feel irritated when I thought about it.
My co-worker has thought about doing this kind of thing before--for example, throwing out the kid's clothes when he refused to pick them up--but has always refrained from doing so because of the financial cost of the items he'd be throwing away. In this case, he says that since the saved game doesn't have any actual financial value, it's the perfect thing to throw away.
It sounds like a recipe for deep seated resentment and therapy bills down the road to me. What does anybody else think?
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
As someone who has had this happen to him, with Morrowwind in fact, I must say that he ist making a most terrible mistake. I wast furious with mine pater for months, I only spoke to him when twas most dire, for soothe, I had almost beaten the game when he did do it. Thou must advise him that tis a most unwise thing to do, his child shall be furious with him, and thier relationship shall most defenitley suffer, the child shall see his father as an over acting, over asserting personage, and shall do everything to defy him out of spite, and rage. He must not do this thing. For both their sakes, this sowed roots of anger betwixt mine father and me, and as of this day, we have not spoken for a long period of time, this gives the child a base to begin his anger, and twill grow, and grow. Tis a terrible thing, he must not sow the fields.
Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
I don't know what kind of game Morrowind is, but I had a similar experience with Quake II. My Mom objected to it not only because it is a violent game but because I spent huge amounts of time playing it. More than I ever spent here at Hatrack (with the exception of a Mafia game here and there (another violent game (go figure))). And I would play it anyway and try not to get caught.
I still don't know if my behavior was a problem that warranted a solution. I suppose I could've read a book or played a sport. Heck, that was a fun game. I wish I still had the hardware to play it on.
But, again, I don't know anything about Morrowind, so I can't make a diagnosis. Oh well, at least I'll up my post count.
Edit: I'm also reminded of a Weekend Update with Norm Macdonald when he said, "Having your head torn off is cruel, I'll grant you, but is it all that unusual?" Hilarious.
[ January 12, 2004, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: jehovoid ]
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Rhaegar, are you in some kind of weird mood today, or do you always talk like that and I somehow missed it?
Noemon, I tend to agree with you.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Maybe he could just take the saves and put them in a protected file or a CD and give them back after a week or two ? Seems reasonable to me.
EDIT because I can't type. Sorry.
[ January 12, 2004, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: Anna ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Exactly how limited is his game time?
When I was a teenager, the important thing for my parents wasn't that we didn't play too much, but that we did all of our chores and homework. They didn't set limits on us unless we were neglecting chores or fighting over the computer. That seems like a pretty reasonable approach to me. Deleting the kid's saved games is only going to cause resentment.
Edit: Also, it seems cruel to me to buy a kid a game for Christmas, tell him he can't play it much, and then delete his saved games. What's the point of having it if you can't enjoy it?
[ January 12, 2004, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
My older brother deleted my saved games and favorite computer game once when he was mad at me. It's been 15 years and I'm still irritated when I remember.
It's a recipe for some major resentment. It's a lack of respect - it's important to him, and obviously not important to the parents. Cut off access if necessary, but don't delete.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I think he is terribly over-reacting. Most of the time, I have found these game obsessions wear themselves out pretty quickly, and then the kid will move on to the next thing (or next obsession).
My son, out on break from college (age 18) picked up Neverwinter Nights. He has been playing it CONSTANTLY -- I mean from the moment he wakes up in the morning until after 10 PM -- for the last several days. Very short breaks for food and potty.
Well, last night he finally beat it and came to an end. He's happy. He will probably go back and create a new character with the expansion pack and go again, but not with as much ferver as the first time through. He has satiated his obsession.
Besides, he's overall a good kid and gets perfect grades, so who am I to say he can't have a total "brain release" of playing computer games for two weeks or so? If that is his R&R, as long as he is getting other things done that I require of him, all is well.
You have to pick your battles with teens. I would say as long as your co-worker's kid is a good kid, keeps his grades up, and is doing whatever chores they usually require of him -- why make a big deal over game time?
Farmgirl
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
Ok-that is just wrong! That seems very underhanded of the parents to do. I'm not even that much of game fan, ok, not at all a game fan, but to those kids, the games are a non-drug related escape from reality. The kid isn't doing lines or turning tricks on the corner, maybe just taking away the game (duh!) might be a better solution. And, if I know teenagers (heh, we were all one) it might be best to put the gaming system in the trunk of one of their cars, because the kid'll find it.
One more thing, I think you should show this thread to that parent. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Morrowind is a CRPG. Rhaegar, he did this when you were close to beating the game? That's awful!
Anna, I sugested the same thing. He said that when the kid was about 5, they took away a bunch of his toys as a punishment, and then gave them back several months later. Apparently he wasn't phased by this at all; part of his character seems to be taking the longer view of things, being willing to endure having something taken away from him as long as he'll get it back eventually (and because of the formative experience when he was 5, he doesn't believe that his parents will really take anything away permenantly).
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
I still think my idea could work. Morrowind is VERY addicting (I myself was taken by it and played like mad during hours whereas I don't usually play video games). EDIT : Oops, sorry Noemon I hadn't read what you wrote because I was typing in the same time.
[ January 12, 2004, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Anna ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
In some situations, I could see this as an appropriate punishment. But only and I repeat only if it was clear to the kid in advance that breaking the rule again would result in the saved games being deleted.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
A more obvious solution, IMO, would be to put a BIOS password on the machine, so the kid can only boot the computer in the presence of his parents.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
can the games be password protected? That would be one reason for not telling the kid in advance. Though if I were the kid and they can be pasword protected they would already be. Though I guess he could delete the entire game and re-install at a later date.
AJ
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Thinking about it more, I'd take away the entire game before I'd delete the saved games.
Posted by St. Yogi (Member # 5974) on :
Well, if he knew about the punishment in advance, then he would probably back up the save files everytime he plays.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
The kid's grades are pretty bad--mostly Cs with a smattering of Ds. His younger brother gets good grades, and as a result is allowed more computer time. The older brother is ordinarily allowed an hour a night, I believe. He is aware that if his grades were better he could have more computer time, but hasn't done anything to improve his grades. He's fairly bright, apparently, but isn't interested in schoolwork. He isn't, like many of us here, so bright that school is boring to him though; he just isn't interested, and doesn't respond well to carrot-and-stick disclipinary strategies. Actually, his father doesn't quite know what to do with him in terms of school. Apparently he doesn't have any learning disabilities, isn't depressed (although I question that one), or anything of the sort, but just refuses to do the work, and doesn't care when priviliges are taken away as a result.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Deleting the games without warning is not likely to motivate him to do any better. Worse, it doesn’t sound like part of a consistent discipline strategy, it sounds like a response to frustration on the part of the father.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Again, allow me to recommend the BIOS password. Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Can he do anything to prevent his son from playing when he's not supposed to? Maybe remove the keyboard or mouse at night. I would suggest a password, but I figure most teenagers would know how to get around that.
Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
quote:Very short breaks for food and potty.
Farmgirl, you just referred to an 18-year-old as "going potty." That's hilarious. You are such a mother.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'd wager that your typical teenager would not be able to bypass a BIOS password without making it obvious that he had done so the next time anyone else turned on the computer.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
If the son does manage to bypass the BIOS password without detection, he should be strongly encouraged to go into a CS or engineering degree, because he would clearly have an exceptionally strong attitude.
BIOS passwords are very hard to bypass on the same computer. Not quite impossible, but very, very hard.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Only knowing enough about computers to be a danger to myself and others, is a BIOS password different than the Windows password?
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: I'd wager that your typical teenager would not be able to bypass a BIOS password without making it obvious that he had done so the next time anyone else turned on the computer.
Exactly. He would have to clear the CMOS via jumper on the motherboard and then go back to set all the BIOS settings correctly. On my BIOS, it says when a setting was last modified in mm/dd/yyyy xx:xx:xx format with the x's meaning time. Very easy to see the modifications. Posted by Julie (Member # 5580) on :
My brother was like that in high school. He's smart, but he didn't really care. My parents would take away everything for one report card to the next, and if his grades were high enough, he would get his stuff back. He would then ignore schoolwork again for another quarter until everything got taken away again. (By everything I mean TV, video games, friends, and my parents blocked his internet so he couldn't send or recieve e-mails or instant messages. He could only use it for research. Since it was the only computer in the house at the time my parents were able to make sure that he didn't have any games on it.)
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
(I still refer to going to the bathroom as 'going potty' of course, I *am* a mom)
Let me get this straight: 1) son gets bad grades and as a consequence:
2) son was told he could have a set amount of time for game-play
3) son dragged out play time, disobeying edict
4) son snuck play time in the middle of the night
Son disobeyed. Period. Now, should the games be deleted? Dunno. Was there a consequence discussed before the disobeying? If not, I don't think the games should be deleted, but the game itself taken away for a period of time.
I don't have any sympathy for persons (even young persons) who break the rules and don't expect there to be a consequence.
Of course, I am a mom, and I believe in Good Behavior. Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Zan, yes, it's very different. A Windows password can be bypassed relatively easily. The BIOS (Basic Input/Output System) is part of the computer's firmware, built into the motherboard, and operates at a much lower level than the operating system.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah, I think I'll suggest the BIOS password. Seems much more humane than the whole deletion scheme. Thanks Tom!
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Setting a password only addresses future problems, though. It doesn't really address the fact that he has already broken the rules by playing longer than he was allowed. I don't think deleting the saved games is a good way to go, but I think some sort of punishment is merited.
Maybe as punishment, they could further restrict game play.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: Only knowing enough about computers to be a danger to myself and others, is a BIOS password different than the Windows password?
I'm sorry. Yes, the Windows password is on the partition on the hard drive. It's data that is not excessively protected. To tell you what the difference between a BIOS and a Windows password (I trust you know what a Windows password is ), I have to explain what BIOS is. BIOS is an acronym.
B: Basic I: Input O: Output S: System
It's where all your hardware is recognized by your software and it's the center for the software/hardware communication.
If it is locked via password, then all the hardware (including the hard drive with your OS on it) is. Think of it this way, if the CPU (central processing unit) is the "brain" of the computer, then the BIOS chip is the nervous system. Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
The windows password is just something windows wants in order to boot up, and is made easy to bypass for such reasons as data recovery. It is easy to set, and provides light security.
The BIOS password is designed to be only bypassable on computer with a BIOS reset, which as previously described requires using jumpers on the motherboard and such. So long as you never let anyone steal your computer itself (or more specifically, the hard drive of your computer) and don't let anyone much with the interior, its rock solid.
Of course, if one were on OS X in a similar situation, one could just create a "gaming" user, move the saved games into its home directory, and activate filevault (putting a password on that user). Even harder to bypass, since any method that gets him access to the data other than by entering the password only gets him a blob of encrypted information (and if he decrypts it on his own, the NSA would be happy to hire him).
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
BTW, I would take notes about this BIOS password thing, but I figure by the time I need to worry about it, my son's computer will be wired into his shoe or something.
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
Such a punishment as a 16 year old would have, seriously, sent me into a violent rage that probably would have culminated in something really damaging, not just too many hours on some silly game. I can't imagine a worse step for the parents to take. Such an unbelievable disregard for the kid's feelings.... and they gave him the darn thing as a gift! They have no respect for how important this is to him.
If he felt they were spending too much time on romantic getaways instead of parenting their kids, would it be reasonable for him to steal and total the car? Smash their kneecaps? Make up molestation charges and have them thrown in jail?
Their inability to understand why it's important to him doesn't give them the right to rip it away from him so suddenly and permanently.
[ January 12, 2004, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: Ayelar ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
He definitely did break the house rules FarmGirl. He also definitely hasn't been warned of the possible consequences.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
The really weird thing, Aylar, is that my co-worker is also playing, and thoroughly enjoying Morrowind, so he must have *some* inkling of what he'd be doing by deleting the kid's saved games.
Somehow, to me, it seems like the equivalent of burning your kid's artwork if they drew on the wall or something.
He's contemplating destroying something that the kid has created through the investment of what he has made, by his rule system, a precious commodity.
I think that my other co-workers and I have convinced him not to do it though, so that's good.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
If I ever thought that a child of mine had reached the point where loss of a saved computer game would send her into a violent rage, that child would be playing no more computer games.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
This kid's obsession with the game is what is disturbing.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
So, if you found out that your child had reached the point where loss of books would send her into a violent rage, would she no longer be reading novels?
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Although there are some computer games that are dear to my heart, I've got to say I think you're right, dkw.
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
That's kind of what I was thinking, Dana.
I understand that Morrowind is a very engaging game, and that acheiving certain levels are difficult, but this kid is getting poor grades in school and disobeying. No, it's not theft, and no, it's not drugs; but rules are important.
If I were the parent, I would sit the son down and explain *why* his behavior was unacceptable. Then I would tell him what I had *considered* doing. Then I would ask him what *he* thought should be his punishment. Then I would punish him as I saw fit.
I don't think that deleting the games is the answer, because that was not a consequence discussed beforehand. I tell you what, that *would* be the consequence if it ever happened again.
There are reasons for rules in parenting. There are reasons for consequences of breaking the rules. Is parenthood supposed to be a dictatorship? To a degree, h*ll yeah! You betcha!
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:So, if you found out that your child had reached the point where loss of books would send her into a violent rage, would she no longer be reading novels?
Um. . . yeah. There's nothing inanimate that's worth getting oneself worked up into a violent rage over.
EDIT: Oops. Upon thinking about this, I don't think my point actually addresses saxon's.
I think that if my child were so devoted to something that depriving her of it would cause her rage, we'd need to have a serious sit down talk. Depriving her of the object is not necessarily the answer, because the object isn't really the problem-- her attitude toward it is.
[ January 12, 2004, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
Morrowind won't load without the cd. Taking the cd away is MUCH easier on everyone involved than deleting saved games.
Ni!
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Yep. No reading was, in fact, my parents fallback punishment when I was growing up. They only used it rarely, but it was darned effective.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Although if he/she went into that kind of rage, merely taking away the computer game/book isn't going to fix what is underlying it.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:Um. . . yeah. There's nothing inanimate that's worth getting oneself worked up into a violent rage over.
I agree. I was just trying to see whether this was just a video game thing, or a more general issue with dangerous obsession.
So, a normal, well-balanced person won't actually become violent over something like that. But anger and resentment, possibly long-lasting, are a bit more likely. It's something of a gray area, I know, but where's the line between acceptable interest and dangerous obsession?
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:Yep. No reading was, in fact, my parents fallback punishment when I was growing up. They only used it rarely, but it was darned effective.
My mom did that as well. It was really the only thing she could take away before I got into BBSs. The rest I didn't care about. But anyway, I may have misunderstood you, but I had read "that child would be playing no more computer games" as a permanent condition, whereas "No reading was, in fact, my parents fallback punishment when I was growing up" seems quiet a bit more temporary.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
BTW, you can find a hack on the internet that will get around not having a cd. You don't even have to copy any files off the cd. . .
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
*Remembering Quentin's wrestling match with his dad in Treasure Box*
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
See, this is why I take great care in only explaining to my parents the bare minimum that they need to know to search the internet and type stuff for work.
Of course, this kind of makes me feel bad for my kids if I ever have them, but by that time they'll probably have a new technology that I won't understand.
But that's why I'll never have kids. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Saxon, you’re not misreading me, the situations aren’t really parallel. If I thought the kid had a serious addiction, or such a case of messed up priorities, or such an anger management problem, that losing the game, or the book, or whatever, would induce a violent rage, I would take a much more long-term approach than “no non-school reading for a week.” That’s a punishment. The other would be an intervention.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: Taking the cd away is MUCH easier on everyone involved than deleting saved games.
Yes, but not effective.
Before explaining that, let me share my experience with you.
When I was in junior high and high school, I played a game called Half-Life. I'm sure many people on this board have heard of it. Never in my life had I been addicted to a video game as I was to this one. Never have I stayed up all night playing a game. It was to the point that my already poor grades were dwindling even further down towards educational failure.
After a short while, my dad would always question me on how I could stand to play a game for so long. He would even--to my discomfort--watch me play to see what it was about. "It's just another shoot-em-up game, I don't see why it's anything special" he would say. I told him that he just doesn't understand how you had control in a surrealistic world like never before possible.
It was when my report came in that he immediately uninstalled the game, but he didn't check the box that said: "Would you like to also delete the saved games?". I noticed that that saved games were still there, so I saved them to a floppy, and I hid the game CD. He demanded it, but I said I didn't know where it was. I claimed I didn't think I would need it again because you can play the game without the CD.
Since I know a lot more about computers than my dad, he could not lock me out of the computer. I burned many copies of Half-Life and hid them. I reinstalled the game when he went to work (which was every day), and replaced the save games that I saved on the floppy. Later, I would remove the installation of Half-Life. This worked until I was halfway through the game.
He came home early one day, and then found me playing. He was dumbfounded but outraged all the same. He took the mouse and keyboard. That did it. I was mad at him for a long while, but I eventually beat that game after school ended for the summer. After that, I didn't play much at all. I still only play about and hour every two weeks.
Does that sound healthy? For a determined teen (like I was), taking away the savegames is a necessity a parent. Maybe not deleting them, but moving them to a floppy disk and then giving them back when their behavior improved.
People who play games all night are not geeks, they are simply slaves to their addiction to games.
[ January 12, 2004, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
For me, the violent rage would have been a reaction to the outrageous disregard for what I felt was important, the casual destruction of something I had spent so much time and energy creating. Sure, it's a game. But a video game involves just as much of an investment, if not more, of a person's time and energy as reading, artwork, needlepoint, or any other hobby that's nonessential. I do see this as
quote:the equivalent of burning your kid's artwork if they drew on the wall or something.
And probably it's just because my entire relationship with the adults in my family has been filled with such instances of total disrespect for me that I feel I would have reacted so strongly to this. It would have been the last straw in a series of ridiculous over-the-top rules and punishments, and it would have pushed me over the edge.
Guess it's a good thing I don't like video games.
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
Yes, but Ayelar, the son's disregarding of the rules is completely disrespectful, too.
Again, I don't advocate deleting the saved games. However, I do think that the kid needs punishment. Punishment for blatant disregard of his parent's authority.
If a kid isn't subject to his/her parents' rules, what's the point of parenting? Hopefully, of course, the rules have reasons (like bringing up one's grades to obtain further computer usage).
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I think this kid's parents and Raia's parents need to get together...
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: But a video game involves just as much of an investment, if not more, of a person's time and energy as reading, artwork, needlepoint, or any other hobby that's nonessential.
I agree with that one, but if the kid's grades are failing, drastic steps are needed even if it means a lot of pain and resentment for the child.
Stupid typos!
[ January 12, 2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
And does anyone really believe that making a 16-year-old despise his parents will result in better academic performance?
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
No Ayelar, but that's not what I said. A child might despise his/her parents for a time, but if it creates better academic success, don't you think it's worth it?
quote: I agree with that one, but if the kid's grades are failing, drastic steps are needed even if it means a lot of pain and resentment for the child.
Well maybe I should have been more clear. Temporarily taking away the savegames until after a good report card comes in is what I think should be done. I'm not arguing they should be deleted.
[ January 12, 2004, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
I feel like, by the time someone's 16 years old, they're beyond parental "punishments". If they don't respect the authority of their parents by then, how is pissing them off going to magically change their minds? If they aren't interested in academics, what can you really do to force them? Haven't you kind of missed the "instilling academic ambition" boat by then?
Instead, why not find something that actually gives their lives meaning, where they aren't just kids under the control of adults? Let them work at McDonalds if they want to. Let them adopt a sheep through 4H and try to sell it. Start restoring a classic car out in the garage. Find them a job somewhere.
Anything where they're actually respected as a contributing member of a society, not just some dumb teenager. Give them a chance to fend for themselves and DO something. Seems to me you have a whole ton of kids who feel like they have no say in their own lives until they finally turn 18, so why should they bother doing anything?
[ January 12, 2004, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Ayelar ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I completely agree with Ayelar and am so incredibly glad that my parents do, too.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Get a life. And computer games ain't a life: it's just a way of avoiding the necessary messiness of having one.
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
Well, I agree and disagree with you, Ayelar.
Yes, the kid should (at 16 y.o.) have a say in how his life works. Ultimately, though, the decision rests with his parents until such time as he gains the age of majority (18 y.o.) or successfully sues for independence.
I would hope that the kid would try his best to conform to house rules, just like you and I do. I mean, if I am going to be late home from work, I call the person I live with, right? So they won't worry.
(that's a hypothetical, I'm never allowed to be home late for work, I have to be there when The Kid comes home from school )
It's a matter of courtesy, as far as I am concerned. A trade, sort of, like: you do your best to follow these quite reasonable rules, and I (the parents) provide you with nurturing and luxuries (reasonable luxuries, of course). In the meantime, the rules keep us safe (and yes, I have read The Giver, this is different) and provide guidelines to civilized behavior.
You think it's rude and unpardonable for a parent to delete saved games? *I* think it's rude and unpardonable for a kid to break the rules and expect little punishment.
*shrug*
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I would suspend ALL computer activity. And I have done this - my oldest asked permission to use the computer just last night. I asked if her room was cleaned up, she said no.
I said "No computer then, because you have to do what you're told to do first. (we had asked her to clean the room up last week, because we wanted to steam the carpets and she had way too many dirty clothes and junk on the floor)
I found her on the computer with the room not straightened up and I suspended her from all use of the computer for one week.
Then, her Daddy (Wes, who is not gay) sat her down and explained why we did what we did, and that her actions (or her refusal to do something we told her to) had consequences. This seemed like a big deal to her, but viewed in the totality of her life one week's loss of computer usage was not that important. However, when she gets older, disobedience can reap much more dire consequences and it's our job to teach her that.
She was upset, but she said she understood and has not done any whining or complaining about it today.
Here's how this situation would go in my house, and how it does go as a matter of fact.
1. You can play games on the computer if all homework and chores for the day are complete.
2. You must turn off the computer as soon as dinner is announced.
3. That's it for the computer time until tomorrow - you are not allowed to use it in the evenings because that's family time.
4. If you do not follow these rules, you will be suspended from using the computer for a time appropriate to your action. Natalie disobeying me directly resulted in a week's suspension because it's the first time she's ever done it. If she repeats this, she will get two weeks next time. On the third offense, we remove whatever game she is currently playing and computer time is restricted to school assignments only for a pre-determined period of time.
Playing computer games is a privilege, not a right. Deleting the saved games and letting the kid continue to play smacks of cruelty to me and is not what I'd consider an effective punishment. I'd remove the game entirely before I did that.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
Belle: I applaud that. Posted by Julie (Member # 5580) on :
quote: I feel like, by the time someone's 16 years old, they're beyond parental "punishments". If they don't respect the authority of their parents by then, how is pissing them off going to magically change their minds?
I agree with that. If you don't earn a kid's respect by then trying to establish your authority at that point is ridiculous. They need to work on mutual respect before the parents can punish a kid with more consequences than were decided upon before hand. That said, I do think something needs to be done. What it is, I don't know. I don't care at all about video games, and my parents have never really had to punish me for anything. (I've always been a good little girl because I was always horribly afraid of being yelled at. So I didn't break the rules.) The most effective thing for me probably would've been to take away my books, but in the end that wouldn't have worked because I always had my books everywhere. My parents would never have gotten them all. The first thing I would've done if I thought there was any chance of my books being taken away would've been to stash my favorites at school or with friends. And my parents really weren't going to tell me I couldn't read anymore when I was the only one of their kids who actually liked reading.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
What Belle said.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Belle and jexx have a more realistic and better-working view of behavior management.
If you live in your parents house and depend on them, you have to follow their rules. Parents can have stupid rules and valid rules, but whatever combination they might be, they MUST be consistent.
Consequences must be given for breaking the rules. Simple as that. It isn't punishment, it's a natural consequence from knowingly breaking a set rule.
Yes, the kid needs to know what the consequence will be if said rule were broken. Respect comes into play here, kid respects parents by following the rules, parents respect kid by maintaining consisent rules and consequences.
Belle's example with her oldest is exactly what I'm saying--it's even the behavior management techniques that my agency teaches. Belle is fair and consistent and explains to her child what happened by processing the incident with her once all parties have calmed down. This leads to better understanding on both parts, and the kid will understand that all choices have consequences, both positive and negative.
With this kid's parents, Noemon, they do need to have fair and consistent rules. If the rule was that said kid had an allotted amount of computer time, he needed to obey that rule. The fact that the kid is sneaking to play in the middle of the night is concerning. I'm wondering if the parents DID tell the kid what the consequences of breaking the rule would be? If they didn't, then explaining to him what will happen if he breaks them again is fair. And whatever consequence the parents choose is valid. Why? Because the kid knows in advance what will happen when he makes the choice to break the rules. The kid is earning his own consequences. But in addition to negative consequences, there need to be positive consequences for good choices. If the kid improves his grades, then he can be compensated with computer time. If he does homework, perhaps he can have matching computer time either that night or he can save it for the weekend when he'll have no homework. That way, the kid has the opportunity to make a choice either way and has the chance to pick the more rewarding choice.
Adults make the same choices in life as well. If the kid wants to be treated as an adult--treat him so. There are rules in college, if you break them, you suffer the consequences that you knew about before you chose to break them. The same goes for laws. Adults know the laws. If you choose to break them, you are choosing to accept the negative consequences for getting caught doing so.
And if you let someone get away with it, you aren't holding them accountable for their own actions and are actually disrespecting them.
And if a kid flies into some sort of violent rage over anything inanimate, as others have said, that needs to be addressed. This situation doesn't warrant a violent rage--it would be a reaction out of proportion to the event.
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
Thank you, Belle, thank you thank you. I thought I was operating in some alternate universe.
*grin*
The computer is a privilege in our house, too, and one of the first things to be taken away if rules are not followed (like refusing to pick up after self--not forgetting, downright refusing). There are lots and lots of things one can be doing in this world, the computer is just one of those things. (says I, from behind the computer screen )
What Belle said.
edited to add: also what mack said *smile* correcting my son's behavior in the middle of posting leads to answering posts after someone else has typed more things that you haven't read yet
[ January 12, 2004, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: jexx ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I think he should recieve some punishment, I just think that it's important not to overdo the punishment because even the best 16 year olds are hovering on the edge of rebellion constantly. It's part of growing up.
I have my own computer, in my room, and have for 3 years. The idea of my computer time being limited is incredibly foreign to me, it was never an issue even when I was younger, except I had to share it with my mom then, which limited my usage.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I think it's interesting that most of the people shocked by the idea of taking away computer privileges aren't parents. Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Ah. But the name of the game is consequence. Not punishment. Because the kid knows what his choice will bring, he chooses the consequence as well. It's his responsibility.
And taking away computer priviledges isn't some great travesty. If he didn't want to lose them, he shouldn't make the choice to break the rules.
Tom also has a good point
[Edited to add:]
Yes, rebellion is a natural part of the teenage years. This is a period when adolescents are forming their own identity and appropriate rebelling against their parents. HOWEVER. They still NEED their parents, and they need them to be fair, consistent, and to create and keep a consistent structure. What I said before, in terms of behavior, choices, and positive and negative consequences, provide much of that needed structure. Children feel much safer and grow into more adjusted adults when they have a safe environment.
[ January 12, 2004, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: mackillian ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I'm not shocked. I can see it as a perfectly reasonable way to regulate ability. I'm sorry if I implied anything of the kind. I was just [attempting] to say that I wasn't sure I could really comprehend the situation, since I had never been in one remotely similar.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: I think it's interesting that most of the people shocked by the idea of taking away computer privileges aren't parents.
I'm not shocked either. I just don't approve of taking away something in such a manner that it can never be given back. If the kid knew that was the consequence, then yes, that's fair for the parent to do so.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
I do think being destructive is petty, and this isn't the message a parent wants to send, that of destroying the saved games. It smells like a temper tantrum, to me. Like a parent who wants to tear their child down, instead of building up the qualities and strengths they would like the child to be armed with.
When a kid is 16 they certainly still need a lot of guidance. Absolutely no question about that. But that guidance should be just that, persuasion instead of force, and ideally should spring from trust and confidence between the parents and children. When parents act to destroy the bonds between them, they erode that trust terribly, and it does destroy something important.
Unfortunately, the parent is required to behave well always. They are not allowed to stoop to the level of the kids. It seems so hard sometimes, since the good and the right are so constrained, whereas the point of view they oppose (the unwise or ignorant) seems relatively free to choose from many courses of action, yet the truth is that good is far far stronger than evil. It holds itself back, out of consideration and respect, and a need to instruct instead of imposing by force. To the extent it finds it necessary not to do that, it ceases to be good.
I have again and again boggled at the cruelty of parents who would ban their kids from the internet altogether for weeks at a time, or even months, quite often cutting the child off from their whole support group and network of closest friends. It's such a violent punishment, for the relatively minor infractions for which I've seen it imposed, that it never fails to shock me. The only excuse the parents seem to have is that they are completely without a clue when it comes to online friendships and the online world in general, and all they know is that their child disappears into some netherworld for hours at a stretch, instead of playing sports and drinking beer and driving too fast as all good red blooded American teenagers should do, and so they are just plain afraid. So they think if they FORCE the kids to be more as they feel they should be, it will be of some benefit. But it's fear they act from, not love.
<sighs> How hard it must be to be a parent! (How both my girls turned out so wonderfully, I haven't a clue! )
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
quote: No reading was, in fact, my parents fallback punishment when I was growing up. They only used it rarely, but it was darned effective.
My parents too ! They took of the light buble when I was supposed to be asleep, otherwise I would read the whole night. Memories... Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
The problem with being intractable is that it can become a power struggle. The idea is that punishment equals learning a lesson, but sometimes the lesson is not the one you want the child to learn and, lest we forget, this particular lesson should be taken within the context of all the other lessons that the parents have tried to teach their children. Haven't really been firm until your children hit adolescence and now you want to lay down the law? Forget it.
I don't know what the answer is here since I don't know the whole situation, but remember we are dealing with a 16 year old and not a 'child' who will meekly accept what his parents tell him. If this parent thinks changing his child's character (since that's what he's trying to do right? And not just trying to show who's boss, which ultimately leads nowhere and achieves nothing, right?) is going to be as easy as deleting the game off of the kid's hard drive, I hope he's not suprised if this thing totally backfires on him and the lesson that the kid learns is not that one should mind one's parents, but rather, it's better to be in control than out of it. That it's better to have power than to not have power, and then the way the kid seeks to empower himself is through quick and easy methods which may really not be helpful down the road.
Feel free to ignore what I'm saying. I'm not a parent, but I was the son of a father who didn't understand how to parent and only knew how to try and ram things down my throat by force. So, that much I do know about.
It's not an easy thing to do, to try and change someone's mind about something. I do think that 16 is a little old to try and punish your child to get them to change and it might be more worth this parent's time to work on staying on his son's side so his son will want to listen to him as a father, rather than alienate him so his son will look at his father as 'the enemy' and lose the benefit of his guidance for a long time. Surely an outcome to be avoided.
ps. If I'm reading too much into this, pardon. These kinds of parental stories kind of bring back some bad memories if you can't tell. Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
When behavior management is gone about properly, there IS no power struggle. The kid has the choice whether or not to comply, and has knowledge beforehand what will happen if he does not comply. He has the power to choose. If the parent does not follow through with the negative consequence of making a bad choice, then rules will have no meaning whatsoever and the kid will do what he pleases.
But saying that a teen needs just an environment of trust and understanding and closeness doesn't help. They DO need that, but that environment needs structure in order to do that. Structure is brought about with consistency, rules, and consequences. Structure brings about a feeling of safety. Teens are very inconsistent and often feel out of control in terms of forming their identity and rebelling. One thing they need is stability in the home, not changing parameters.
It isn't about punishment and power assertion with behavior management. That's actually where parents can go wrong quite often--that it DOES become a personal power struggle and it's a sucky road to go down. The other road is the ineffectual parent--where no rules are enforced because the kid is an adolescent and can be treated as an adult.
Adults have rules, too. So should teens.
Effective managing this kid's behavior from the start would be like this:
The kid has allotted computer time, say one hour per day (Rule). If he completes his homework, he can have extra time on the computer matching the amount of time spent on his homework (positive consequence for following rule). If his weekly progress report (you can request them from the school) shows improvement, then he earns X amount of time on the computer over the weekend (positive consequence). If the kid chooses to go over his allotted time, he has no computer the following day(negative consequence). If he does this three times in a row (every other day with loss of privileges in between) then he loses the computer privileges for X amount of time (negative consequence). If his grades fall, then he loses computer until they show improvement (negative consequence AND positive consequence).
Using the computer is a privilege, not a RIGHT.
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
Well, if the parent is wise enough to have been following such a strategy from the start, then it's likely that the kid is so well-raised that they don't even need strict punishments. They've been taught all along to follow the rules for good reasons, and they respect their parents for, if nothing else, being consistent and fair.
However, if the parent hasn't been doing so all along, and the kid is now 16.... I bet it would become a power struggle no matter what. That's what it was for me, anyhow. Won't let me use the computer? Fine, I'll find another way. I'll lie about it. I'll sneak stuff. I'll skip classes at school to use the computers in the library. I'll get back at you by stealing your passwords and reading your email.
If the foundation of trust, respect, and fair-handed discipline isn't there by 16, then you really screwed up and need to focus on that relationship before you try any "behavior modification". You need to find something you can do with the kid that will build that trust, like finding some common goal you can both work towards.
Telling a kid that already doesn't respect you and feels like you don't respect him that you'll be requesting weekly progress reports and doling out precious computer time based on how you feel about his performance ain't gonna make him suddenly realize the error of his ways. It's going to challenge him to try to circumvent what he sees as yet another stupid rule handed down by a parent who will never understand him.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
My mother was brilliant and did behavior management, and with my dad it was always a power struggle.
*shrug* Natural consequences, true natural consequences - my dad has had to struggle as an adult to build relationships with his adult children, and one (my middle brother) he hears from only about four times a year.
[ January 13, 2004, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
How come nobody is telling this parent to TALK to their kid about it? I mean, explain why this is unacceptable behavior and maybe why rules are important and yadda yadda?
I think that parents and kids would make bigger strides if they just talked about things. *mutter* My parents talked my EARS off. It was the worst. punishment. ever.
*grin*
I tell you what, though, I felt serious shame when I forced my mother (through my misbehavior) to punish me. It definitely shaped my behavior.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
Actually, i'm pretty sure Belle and Mack are both suggesting talking to the kid.
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
No, you're right celia (you evil one!), I should have said, "How come *more people* aren't telling this parent to TALK to their kid?"
I am corrected.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Talking is essential. If your child doesn't understand WHY you are doing what you're doing, then you have a recipe for some severe resentment. The child doesn't have to agree with the parent - but at least the child knows the parent isn't pulling punishment out of the air.
Natalie doesn't think it's fair for me not to allow her to spend the night at her friend's house. She thinks I'm unreasonable.
I explain to her that we have reasons for this stand and it's not that we don't trust her, but that we don't want her in a vulnerable spot in an environment we cannot control and know nothing about.
She doesn't agree or completely understand but she accepts we have reasons for what we're doing. It's a lot more easier pill to swallow than "You can't spend the night because we said so and I don't want to hear another word about it!"
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Belle My parents raised me that way, and I think it's quite clever. Always easier to apply a rule when you understand it.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Yes, I think that Belle is laying the foundation for later on when she does have to deal with a 16 year old.
From 15 on was pretty much me gritting my teeth to survive until I moved out. But I knew that I had to do it, because my parents wouldn't put up with hearing what I really thought. So I guess they laid the foundation right, because I didn't ever do anything henious.
With this teenager, I don't think the parent could walk in and just start implementing Mack's solution, because there isn't a foundation there. A perfect stranger like Mack would have a much better chance. But a parent whos let a kid get away with stuff in the past is working against a lot of back history that will always be thrown at them.
It is an uphill battle and at this point deleting the games would probably cause more beligerence. But who knows.
AJ
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
I still think deleting the games is a horrid mistake. I know, it is just a game now, but a 16 year old kid (a bit old to still be obsessed with games) might be angry for a long time to come. I would have been when I was 12-14 years old.
I can't really add much more to what has been said. I agree the most with Belle. This father doesn't seem to care if his son even cares for him at all though.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I can assure you that while I hope I am laying a good foundation, I make my share of mistakes.
One thing that Wes and I are trying to tell our kids is that every day is new territory for all of us. Natalie has never been 11 before, and we've never parented an 11 year old before. All of us are bound to make mistakes. I can only hope she doesn't hold all those mistakes against me later on.
I had a good Mom. Still do, matter of fact. She treated my brother and I very fairly, and while I went through a short period of thinking she was the worst person on Earth, for the most part I always respected her and wanted very much to please her.
Parenting is such a scary thing - you want so badly not to screw up, yet you know that you're bound to at some point.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote: Parenting is such a scary thing - you want so badly not to screw up, yet you know that you're bound to at some point.
Amen!!!
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: I had a good Mom. Still do, matter of fact. She treated my brother and I very fairly, and while I went through a short period of thinking she was the worst person on Earth, for the most part I always respected her and wanted very much to please her.
Belle, I do have a question for you. Do you think you are fair with your child Natalie (I'm assuming you are because of how you said you would have handled the situation) because your mother was with you? Do you believe people pass on their parenting traits? I know that no parent is the same, but do some of the traits you get as a parent come uncontrollably from your parents? Just wanted to know your opinion.
Posted by Fooglmog (Member # 6088) on :
I think deleting all his saved games is a brilliant solution! Encourage your co-worker to do that Noemon. Then please encourage his son to throw his briefcase in a dumpster the next time he's working late!
end_sarcasm.BAS
quote: I think it's interesting that most of the people shocked by the idea of taking away computer privileges aren't parents.
I don't think many people are really shocked at the idea. It's just that it's mostly non-parents who have been in the situation of being totally into a computer game recently, and can easily emulate with what the son will feel if his father goes through with this.
I also have to say, that this guy's son can delete files just as easily as he can. I believe you mentioned Noemon that both your co-worker and his son play Morrowind? How hard do you think it'll be for this kid to get on for 3 minutes one day and accidentally erase his dad's files too? Because that's exactly the kind of thing we stupid teen agers would do.
From what I gather, this kid's computer time is really limited because his marks suck at school. If his marks suck, then (assuming they aren't totally stupid parents) they should have deprived him of a privilidge which they thought was the cause of his crappy marks. Seeing as cutting back on computer time hasn't worked, maybe it's time they asked him why he thinks he's not getting good marks? Because that's the underlying problem, he's only breaking rules because they're really confining, and they're only really confining because his marks suck, so if you solve that problem you've solved somthing big.
Everyone seems to think they should be talking about "consequences" to his actions and blah blah blah. What kid wants to hear that? The parents obviously don't know what the problem with his marks is, so ask him, come up with a solution to that problem, and if it works give him say 2 hours a night instead of one. Enforce that strictly (this is where talking about consequences before hand comes in, a good consequence would be cutting right back down to 1 hour if he goes over 2) so he knows he can't get past that rule, but he'll want to keep the doubled computer time he has, so he won't break it. That problem is solved, there may be some other problems to solve in this family, but soling this one without severly pissing anyone off seems like a good place to start.
-Fooglmog Guy with no clue.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Derail at tiny, tiny bit, if I may? I'm wondering how people generally feel about parents regulating their high school student's grades. Personally, I'm a senior in high school and my parents have never regulated my schoolwork, I also have a 3.95 GPA, more like 3.9 w/o weighting. As a result I am rather against parents regulating their student's schoolwork. I see that up to a point, say sixth or seventh grade, it would be impossible not to. But by the time your kid gets into high school, shouldn't they have learned this already? And if they haven't, shouldn't your approach to the situation be more along the lines of helping your child get good grades without your interference? What good does it do your child if they can only get good grades with your help? They might as well get bad grades, but because being unable to work without your parent's help isn't going to help you much in life.
[ January 13, 2004, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: blacwolve ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
My parents never regulated my grades, per se. They regulated my effort. If they felt (usually because of teacher comments on progress reports/ report cards, often followed up by a conversation with said teacher) that I wasn't putting in as much effort into a class as I should, they did their best (which included positive/negative consequences) to ensure that I did. If they were convinced that I was putting in the effort, they were fine, regardless of whether my grade was a C or an A.
I actually was very annoyed about this at one point, after finding out that a classmate received a "performance bonus" (read: cash) for each A she brought home on a report card.
Now I have to agree with my parents. Posted by Fooglmog (Member # 6088) on :
My parents know what I plan to do with my life, they bug me to make sure I'm getting the marks I need in the courses which I'll need to do that. I plan to go into journalism, so they don't really care as long as I'm getting my 50% is the stupid courses (like career studies) so I can graduate high school, and my 98% in classes which I actually will be using... like Media Studies.
-Fooglmog Guy with no clue.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:It's just that it's mostly non-parents who have been in the situation of being totally into a computer game recently, and can easily emulate with what the son will feel if his father goes through with this.
"Aaah! You don't understand me! You hate me! You want to ruin my life!"
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Well, my co-worker sat down with his son and explained that the next time he broke the rules with regard to computer time, the saved games would go, so at least he's being upfront about it. The reason that he doesn't want to take away the CD or set up a password on the BIOS is that the 16 year old's younger brother, who is getting good grades and generally following the rules, is also playing Morrowind, and my co-worker doesn't want to inadvertently deprive him of the game.
In answer to what you were saying, Fooglmog, the kid has had pretty much everything taken away from him--computer priviliges, Boy Scout excursions, extra-curricular sporting activities, later curfews, getting to go out on the weekends; my co-worker wasn't going to let him go to his homecoming dance until the father of the son's date to the dance asked for compensation for the cost of the girl's dress.
The parents are really at their wits end; they've tried all of this and more, and just haven't had any luck motivating the kid at all, with any of it. I personally find some of the measures they've taken to be a bit draconian, but I recognize that my co-worker is floundering a bit because he's scared that the kid is on a path that will result in an unhappy life, and nothing he does to help, whether it's working with the kid on his homework, punishing him, rewarding him, or what seems to work. It isn't really a black and white situation.
Personally, I think that the kid sounds depressed. I'm only getting the story from the father's perspective, though, so I could easily be wrong. My co-worker doesn't think depression is a factor.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Noemon, I agree with you. You don't have to be stuffing your face with ice cream and listening to the Cure to be depressed.
The dad may not recognize it when he sees it.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Exactly kat.
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
Maybe they could take a page from George Costanza's book... every time they feel like doing something to "modify" his behavior, they do the exact opposite.
Feel like you should take away his computer games? Give him a hug and ask him if there's anything you can do to help instead. Think you should forbid him from hanging out with his friends? Offer to treat them all to paintball instead. Going to take away his football team privileges? Go out and play catch.
What they're doing isn't working, and at this point it's only going to make things worse. They need to focus on building a positive relationship with the kid and helping him get through this difficult stage in life, not slapping him with more and more outrageous punishments.
And also, they need to remember that a kid's grades are not their only measure of worth. Is he a good and decent person? Does he build strong friendships? Is he really clever with computers? Is he a snappy dresser?
Of course parents want to see their kids succeed in school, but school and grades are not the be-all end-all in life. There are plenty of ways to make your life happy and productive even if you got D's when you were a junior in high school. Even if you don't go to college!!!. Just seems like the parents who destroy their relationships with their kids in the name of grades and ambitions need to take a look at their priorities.
[ January 14, 2004, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Ayelar ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You know, I would have specifically recommended that they NOT threaten to take away his saved games, but threaten instead to put a BIOS password on the machine.
Why?
Because a) that gets the other brother involved, introducing some peer pressure; b) telling him about the saved games thing in advance gives the kid a chance to simply move them somewhere else on the box, and we know based on his description that he's sneaky enough to do this.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
c) deleting the saves but still allowing him to play the game is both silly and mean.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: Because a) that gets the other brother involved, introducing some peer pressure; b) telling him about the saved games thing in advance gives the kid a chance to simply move them somewhere else on the box, and we know based on his description that he's sneaky enough to do this.
My parents did this, and to this day, my older 22 year old sister and I still can't stand each other, but we get along for our parent's sake.
<rant>And since it effected her, she thought she was my parent. She still does. </rant>
Bad idea Tom. It has created resentment that my parents create a decade ago that still hasn't faded.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Give it time Nick. My sister and I resented each other until I was 24 and she was 22. Now we’re great friends. It takes a while to grow out of a childhood sibling relationship into an adult one.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: Give it time Nick. My sister and I resented each other until I was 24 and she was 22. Now we’re great friends. It takes a while to grow out of a childhood sibling relationship into an adult one.
Well, it's not like we can develop our relationship. I'm still going to school in northern California, and she's at San Diego State. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Yep. And you won't move into your adult relationship until both of you graduate.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, you dork, stop resenting her. How hard can it be?
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
quote:It takes a while to grow out of a childhood sibling relationship into an adult one.
It doesn't always happen. I have an older brother and we don't have a relationship. But I never see him - he is married with two kids and his own life - and that may have something to do with it. Since we've barely spoken as adults, there no way to change things.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: Well, you dork, stop resenting her. How hard can it be?
I would when she stops thinking she is my mother. Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
I wonder what would happen if you respected her? Not by obedience, by any means, but if you told her what you admired and liked about her, and did find something she did that you could applaud and even let her be right on. Full-out resistance on all levels doesn't seem to be working and trumpeting yourself against someone with no legitimate hold on you is hardly a worthy cause; maybe you could make the first move?
That's only if you want a relationship with your sister. If you prefer to be at loggerheads, by all means, continue. Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Yes, but Ayelar, the son's disregarding of the rules is completely disrespectful, too.
Again, I don't advocate deleting the saved games. However, I do think that the kid needs punishment. Punishment for blatant disregard of his parent's authority.
I'm with Ayelar all the way on this one. Sixteen is far too old for the unquestioning "yes, Daddy" bullshit. If the guy disagrees with his parents, he needs to do what he feels is right -- and if they can't convince him with anything other than arbitrary and possibly cruel punishment, their authority's pretty baseless as is. He's his own man by now, and should have been for several years. If his parents are determined to retard his growth, fine, but what do they think they'll get out of the process? Either he'll be a strong enough man that he'll grow up to despise them, or they'll break him before he has a chance to forge his mettle with experience, and he'll grow up as a weak mama's boy. Are either really desirable?
Good on the kid for going against a rule he disagrees with. He's long past the age he should've realized his parents aren't gods and don't deserve unquestioning obedience. While I feel he should have confronted them directly rather than sneak around their backs, I won't fault him for at least being bright enough to realize his parents don't have the right to make his decisions for him.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: I wonder what would happen if you respected her? Not by obedience, by any means, but if you told her what you admired and liked about her, and did find something she did that you could applaud and even let her be right on. Full-out resistance on all levels doesn't seem to be working and trumpeting yourself against someone with no legitimate hold on you is hardly a worthy cause; maybe you could make the first move?
You have assumed I haven't tried? My relationship with her is still a one-way bridge over a river infested with killer pirahnas.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
*snort* I doubt it.
Try it again, and don't focus on the result (her respecting you). Focus on her and how you can make her feel respected.
[ January 14, 2004, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
i wouldn't describe my sister and i as close, but i think living in totally different time zones has only helped our relationship.
given enough consecutive years of not being at each others throats, we can actually enjoy the small amount of time we spend together. somewhere in the past six years, i learned to let my hair down a little, and she figured out that responsibility has privlidges and consequences.
over the break, we were sitting at the table and i reached out to examin a braid in her hair. she told me to be careful because her scalp is really sensitive at the base of the braid. i laughed and asked how she managed to still have any feeling left in her head, because i sure don't (tugging on my own for demonstration).
i am amazed that we have come so far.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Just for the sake of conversation, what do you all think would happen if the dad just stepped back, gave his kid a hug, told him he loved him, and gave this kid space, but then encouraged him to do something better with his life?
This is a serious question. Perhaps I am naive, but I just don't see this as a 'rules' issue, but a...family relationship issue? As a character issue? And I just don't see any of the consequences offered by anyone in this thread (bios password, deleting games/the game) as working to move the kid along.
And yes, I know the situation has been 'resolved'. I'm just interested in people's opinion.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Good on the kid for going against a rule he disagrees with. He's long past the age he should've realized his parents aren't gods and don't deserve unquestioning obedience."
Out of interest, at what age do you think kids are old enough to choose to neglect their studies, disobey their parents, and waste all their time on computer games?
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I think it's obvious that taking away priveleges hasn't helped. Frankly, if I were in the situation this boy is in I would just stop doing any schoolwork in protest. Especially if the kid already wasn't too concerned with his grades, it's not that hard of an idea to come up with and I'm sure it would have occured to him somewhere during this whole thing. I think there's definately a point where parents have to step back and allow their kid to ruin their own life, with the understanding that if the kid doesn't go to college he will not be welcome at home after he's graduated.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I think there's definately a point where parents have to step back and allow their kid to ruin their own life...."
Do you think this comes at 16? Wow. I would say the young people here lack a certain amount of perspective. Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: Wow. I would say the young people here lack a certain amount of perspective.
Thank you for that opinion Tom. There really IS a point at where the parent has to step back. It might be 16 for some kids, it might be 18 for others. My parents did last year, and I'm 19 now. It has worked wonders. My grades have improved, and I barely even play computer games anymore. Now I play Xbox games, which almost amounts to the same thing. Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:"Good on the kid for going against a rule he disagrees with. He's long past the age he should've realized his parents aren't gods and don't deserve unquestioning obedience."
Out of interest, at what age do you think kids are old enough to choose to neglect their studies, disobey their parents, and waste all their time on computer games?
The same age I mentioned above -- when he realizes his parents aren't gods. If he's going to obey his parents, I'd prefer that he do it out of willingness and experience, not out of fear of a threat of punishment. Wouldn't you?
Everyone's going to make mistakes as they grow up. I submit that making mistakes is necessary to growing up. While there are consequences to bad grades and extended computer time, he needs to learn why for himself -- taking mommy's word for it won't help him develop in the least. In cases like these, parental guidance can too easily turn to parental control and stifle any modicum of maturity that the kid may be trying to develop. While I've never been a parent, I'd much rather have a maturing son than an obedient puppet. Again I ask, wouldn't you?
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
quote:Wow. I would say the young people here lack a certain amount of perspective.
Tom, you're what.... 25? 26?
Please don't play the age card... it doesn't add anything to the discussion to try to throw your years and years of experience around on us... oh, earlier twenty-somethings. Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Beg pardon, I think Elder Tom's turned 27 or 28 by now. Show some respect, whippersnapper.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Do you think this comes at 16? Wow. I would say the young people here lack a certain amount of perspective.
From your perspective, how would you force this kid to study, ignore computer games, etc, without burning your bridges with him?
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
Lord have mercy! I had no idea he was gettin' so long in the tooth!
I best be showin' my proper respect! Silly me, tryin' to have me some o-pinions when I'm a scant young 22...
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Yeah, he's in snotty mode, right now. Hopefully it will pass soon.
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
It's the pregnancy, I'd think. I hear people can get all moody when in that condition.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
huh, I didn't know ALR was pregnant.
um...congratulations!
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Wow, Christy's pregnancy vibes must work great! Poly's even picking them up by Tom proxy...
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware my opinions were so worthless, I'll attempt to stop cluttering up the board with them.
[ January 14, 2004, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: blacwolve ]
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
No! I'm not! Not until I'm settled in career and location! *mutter mutter mutter*
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
My point is this:
A child whose bridges are "burned" by the removal of computer privileges is, in my opinion, a child who is seriously in need of additional parental discipline in the first place. Moreover, I categorically reject Eddie's assertion that a child who's old enough to start disobeying his parents is, by the very virtue of his disobedience, now mature enough to be permitted to run his own affairs.
I'm speaking here as someone who was regularly beaten as a child, and someone who's watched my brother, through a combination of permissiveness (which fed a serious drug habit) and short-sighted "interventions," slowly detach from the rest of the family.
There's no need to tread on eggshells around some pouty-ass kid like he's all grown up and ready to start making his own choice. He's screwing up his schoolwork; his parents don't need to -- and SHOULDN'T -- respect his "decision" to do that.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Holy crap, I completely agree with Tom again.
More after I eat my dinner.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: There's no need to tread on eggshells around some pouty-ass kid like he's all grown up and ready to start making his own choice. He's screwing up his schoolwork; his parents don't need to -- and SHOULDN'T -- respect his "decision" to do that.
Now THAT I agree with. I just didn't agree about your statement about the young adults here (like myself).
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
quote:Belle, I do have a question for you. Do you think you are fair with your child Natalie (I'm assuming you are because of how you said you would have handled the situation) because your mother was with you? Do you believe people pass on their parenting traits? I know that no parent is the same, but do some of the traits you get as a parent come uncontrollably from your parents? Just wanted to know your opinion.
They can and they can't. There's a cycle of parenting traits, whether good or bad, that you learn from your parents as a child. Education can help you learn good parenting, ignorance can lead to bad parenting. It's far from cut and dry.
quote:It's just that it's mostly non-parents who have been in the situation of being totally into a computer game recently, and can easily emulate with what the son will feel if his father goes through with this.
Yes, but part of maturity is being able to empathize with both parties and not just taking one side.
quote:What good does it do your child if they can only get good grades with your help? They might as well get bad grades, but because being unable to work without your parent's help isn't going to help you much in life.
Just because you've reached adolescence doesn't mean you know everything. Most teens DO, but when they reach young adulthood, they realize they don't know crap. Anyway, supporting and encouraging your child through all their school years is incredibly important. The kids who do better in school TEND to have parents who take an interested and help in managing time and work. Parents aren't a crutch, they're training wheels.
quote:I actually was very annoyed about this at one point, after finding out that a classmate received a "performance bonus" (read: cash) for each A she brought home on a report card.
My sister got cash for Cs and Bs. I got nothing for my As. *kicks parents*
quote:"Aaah! You don't understand me! You hate me! You want to ruin my life!"
Exactly.
quote:The parents are really at their wits end; they've tried all of this and more, and just haven't had any luck motivating the kid at all, with any of it. I personally find some of the measures they've taken to be a bit draconian, but I recognize that my co-worker is floundering a bit because he's scared that the kid is on a path that will result in an unhappy life, and nothing he does to help, whether it's working with the kid on his homework, punishing him, rewarding him, or what seems to work. It isn't really a black and white situation.
Perhaps a call to the school guidance counselor or social worker is in order? Teamwork with the people who work with their son can help a great deal more.
quote:Personally, I think that the kid sounds depressed. I'm only getting the story from the father's perspective, though, so I could easily be wrong. My co-worker doesn't think depression is a factor.
Has he been tested for AD/HD? Depression is often co-morbid with AD/HD and this kid seems to exhibit many AD/HD symptoms from your report.
quote:Just seems like the parents who destroy their relationships with their kids in the name of grades and ambitions need to take a look at their priorities.
Taking away computer privileges is not relationship destruction, typically. Reality is that much more serious and harmful things can happen in families. Removal of those privileges is not serious.
quote:I'm with Ayelar all the way on this one. Sixteen is far too old for the unquestioning "yes, Daddy" bullshit. If the guy disagrees with his parents, he needs to do what he feels is right -- and if they can't convince him with anything other than arbitrary and possibly cruel punishment, their authority's pretty baseless as is.
Behavior management is not "yes, daddy" unquestioning bullshit. That would be plain old punishment. If this kid is expected to be treated like man, he should act like one and respect his father's rules since he lives under his father's roof. If he's determined to be his own man, then he can do so and move out.
quote:Just for the sake of conversation, what do you all think would happen if the dad just stepped back, gave his kid a hug, told him he loved him, and gave this kid space, but then encouraged him to do something better with his life?
That sort of stuff needs to be coupled with any sort of consistent behavior management. But stepping back and letting the kid have at it when he's floundering already seems harsh as well. Like refusing to operate on a bullet wound victim because there's no anesthesia. It'll hurt him to do the operation, so the patient dies. Family life isn't easy, it's hard work and it isn't painless.
quote:I think there's definately a point where parents have to step back and allow their kid to ruin their own life, with the understanding that if the kid doesn't go to college he will not be welcome at home after he's graduated.
Could you imagine how a kid would feel if his/her own parents just GAVE UP on him?
quote:From your perspective, how would you force this kid to study, ignore computer games, etc, without burning your bridges with him?
Cattle prod. Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Moreover, I categorically reject Eddie's assertion that a child who's old enough to start disobeying his parents is, by the very virtue of his disobedience, now mature enough to be permitted to run his own affairs.
Who said that? A teenager mature enough to run his own affairs should know when and when not to obey his parents -- and sixteen is well beyond the threshold of that maturation. If the kid isn't mature enough to make his own decisions by now, he needs to start making mistakes now before they start counting.
It sounds as though you buy into the my-house-my-rule law, Tom. Which isn't necessarily bad, but hardly useful for raising an creature meant to become an independent adult. The kid's sixteen -- if he doesn't quickly realize the problems of abusing his computer time without mommy nagging at him, he's beyond her help anyway.
As far as the relevance of the computer goes, what correlation exists between the computer game and his academic history?
quote:The kid's grades are pretty bad--mostly Cs with a smattering of Ds. His younger brother gets good grades, and as a result is allowed more computer time. The older brother is ordinarily allowed an hour a night, I believe. He is aware that if his grades were better he could have more computer time, but hasn't done anything to improve his grades. He's fairly bright, apparently, but isn't interested in schoolwork. He isn't, like many of us here, so bright that school is boring to him though; he just isn't interested, and doesn't respond well to carrot-and-stick disclipinary strategies.
The kid's grades were apparently bad before the game, and they'll be bad afterwards. Where are you getting that the computer game is at fault for the kid's poor grades?
I take issue with your claim that the child needs to obey the parent -- patently false, as your very own example shows. You were abused by a parent -- do you really think that parent deserves your respect, let alone your unquestioning obedience?
Admittedly, I may be speaking from a biased perspective. My dad left shortly after my birth, my mother's been frantic with her job all my life, and my older brother stormed out of the one-bedroom apartment we shared when he was fourteen, never to return, after we punched in every door but the front in our fights. I raised myself, mostly, and as a result I can't imagine a sixteen-year-old incapable of handling such basic decisions as how much time to spend on the computer. Does his mother still wipe his ass, too? The kid needs to walk for himself at some point, and he should have learned how years ago. The longer he's not allowed to walk for himself, the more he's going to stumble once he does -- and he'll be stumbling during the most dangerous and alien years of his life if walking's postponed too long.
That isn't to say I don't understand your point about permissiveness -- I'm friends with far too many spoiled potheads to hold fantasies about the virtues of hands-off parenting. But isn't there a middle ground? Permissiveness is as far from guidance as control is, albeit the opposite end of the spectrum -- can't you advise and guide your kid without playing the role of an unquestionable deity?
Of course, maybe I expect too much. If the kid's doomed to crash and burn anyway, I guess there's no point to giving him a trial by fire -- but as many faults as the hands-off approach has, it doesn't sound as though the hands-around-the-neck approach has worked thus far.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Could you imagine how a kid would feel if his/her own parents just GAVE UP on him?
Yes, because my dad gave up on my brothers temporarily after my mom died. He just hid. He bought them cell phones, said please don't do anyting stupid, and hid.
He didn't check report cards. He didn't make them go to church. He didn't screen their friends.
One brother couldn't be screwed up if someone tried, but my middle brother was cast asea. He got into trouble with the law, almost dropped out of school, skipped church for six months before my dad figured it out, and basically said he could take care of himself at fifteen and my dad said, "Okay." and that was it.
Now, that was a pretty traumatic event and so I'll cut my dad some slack, but the effects were not good. We're not a family, and my brother is angry, cynical, and disenfranchised. Don't abandon the kid. He needs parents more now, not less.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Thanks, Kat. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I love seeing Jatraqueros demonstrate how good they are at what they do. *high-fives mack*
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
quote:can't you advise and guide your kid without playing the role of an unquestionable deity?
quote:as many faults as the hands-off approach has, it doesn't sound as though the hands-around-the-neck approach has worked thus far.
I don't agree with Lalo on everything, but I think this is spot-on. Textbook parenting is all fine and good if the parents have raised the kid from the start to be responsible and self motivated. If they haven't, though, they need to step back and build that foundation before the kid is going to give a crap about what his parents want him to do.
[ January 15, 2004, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: Ayelar ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Stepping back and letting a do whatever he/she wants while trying to build a relationship isn't going to build one built around trust. Why? No matter what age, people who have parents need for their parents to provide them with protection and safety. If inconsistent behavior management or the use of arbitrary punishments have failed to create this structured environment, then parents need to begin to construct that environment by using fair, natural consequences. Choices that anyone makes will bring about consequences. Have fair rules with natural consequences for either following or breaking those rules is a step towards building a relationship.
The other thing is at least these parents have serious interest in their son and his succcess and long-term well being. Sure, they might not be educated, but they CARE. Taking that care and some education and turning the situation around is great. A relationship right now between that father and son is far from destroyed. The father obviously cares enough to want to do right by his son, he's just at a loss at what to do. The son is so obviously floundering right now that if the father stepped back, patted the son on the back and said, "You do what you need to." The son will have a crisis--he might think he knows everything but is presented a situation in which he is entirely unsuccessful and safe. It is a parent's job to provide structure to provide a safe environment. Parents who haven't abused or neglected their children have done that in part, even if they suck at behavior management and punish the kid instead. But parents like that can turn around and more often than not the family life can be helped a great deal. It's tough, it's far from painless, but it can be done. And when there's care and interest from the parent, a dogged unwillingness to give up on their kid, and no past abuse or neglect, the work can be done relatively easily.
But aside from the son's disinterest in what seems everything but the game's, this is a family far, far from dysfunction, as is the father and son's relationship, which looks mostly to be a normal teenage relationship with a parent. Son struggling for independence and his own identity, father desperately trying to help, both completely conflicted because the son still needs his parents but mostly thinks he doesn't.
When a kid says, "You're ruining my life!" unless he's being abused or neglected, his life isn't being ruined or relationships destroyed. This is reality and no family relationships are a cakewalk.
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of course, I *am* a mom)![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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