I left yesterday to spend two weeks with my grandparents in their guest house. My wife asked my to give her some time alone. I agreed to two weeks although she wants more, but I'm the one who is suffereing here. She wants to sort her feeling out about whether or not we have a future. I'm not sure if I made a good decision but right now it is best. I just don't want her to get to comfortable. It's easy to live in a place where all the bills are paid and the kids aer safe but that is not the reality of what an actual split would be.
So anyways I'm doing my best to be supportive and understanding to her needs right now but life sure sucks in the mean time.
[ April 23, 2004, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: beatnix19 ]
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
((((((((((((beatnix))))))))))))
My parents split up about a year ago: the biggest advice I can give you is to talk to your wife. Let her know what you are feeling, listen to what she is feeling.
The worst thing that could happen is a more permanent split, if it could have been avoided.
Edit: I know in the case of my parents that some things progressed because they just didn't talk. I don't know how things will turn out with you and your wife: I hope for the best. But regardless of outcome, you should never have to acknowledge (and I hope you never do) that things may have turned out differently if you had truly communicated druing this hard and horrible period.
[ February 03, 2004, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: imogen ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
((beatnix)) many hugs to you
I have been thinking about you since that last post on this subject -- hoping things were getting worked out.
Is she agreeing to counseling along with this temporary separation?
My thoughts are with you and your situation.
Farmgirl
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I'm sorry, beatnix. It does suck. (((((beatnix)))))
If she isn't willing to have you move back in after two weeks -- and I really hope she will be! -- I don't think it would be unreasonable of you to STOP paying bills (or some of them) at that point. Don't threaten or anything like that. That would be VERY counterproductive. But have a plan in case she does refuse. Be prepared to calmly say something like, "Ok, but since I'm going to need to find a place, I won't be able to pay the rent/mortgage any longer."
Then pray and do your best to NOT need to fall back on that plan.
During these two weeks, what is the agreement? Are you just supposed to be "giving her space"? Taking her out on dates? Courting her? Talking on the phone?
What about seeing the kids during that time?
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
are you still posting on nauvoo on the topic? I was trying to find that thread that was there before, but got a little lost.
AJ
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
(((((Beatnix)))))
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
quote: Is she agreeing to counseling along with this temporary separation?
We've been once and are scheduled to go again but she is not very enthusiastic.
quote: During these two weeks, what is the agreement? Are you just supposed to be "giving her space"? Taking her out on dates? Courting her? Talking on the phone?
The big problem is she is really angry with me and doesn't want more of the same. I've tried to prove to her that I'm changing for the best but I know it will take time. She just isn't sure if she wants to give me the time.
The part that really ticks me off is that she has kept these feeling bottled for two years and let the grow out of control. For me this was a bombshell. I didn't see it coming. I knew things weren't great but had no idea the extent ofthe damage. I'm trying to convince her to give us a chance, and a real chance where we are open and honest and working together.
But to answer the question we are going to have nothing to do with eachother during this time. I'll be at the house to watch the kids on the evening where she works, which helps her out but gives me time to be with the kids.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I'm very glad that you are going to spend time with your kids. The situation must be incredibly confusing for them -- and you must miss them a lot too!
I'm glad you are seeing a therapist. I hope they came well recommended, and were not simply picked at random? Keep going! Even if she won't go, go anyway.
You have every right to be upset that she let it get to this point; HOWEVER, dwelling on that is pretty useless and likely counterproductive. It was a (big) mistake on her part -- but you knew there were problems, and ignored them; neither of you is blameless here. I have been in your shoes, and I know that dwelling on who did what to get you to where you are will wreck things faster and more completely than anything else.
You both made mistakes -- big ones -- that got you to where you are. Now try to focus on two things: where you WANT to be; and how to get there. Don't push her to "give you a chance" -- act as though she IS. And yes, this will be VERY VERY hard! You so want and need the reassurance that you are working so hard for a purpose.
Don't keep pointing out that you are trying to change -- SHOW her. Quietly, subtly even. Court her. Leave her love notes in silly places. Not anywhere she might feel invaded -- but maybe inside the freezer, taped to a container of her favorite kind of ice cream?
In the WORST case (which I hope and pray you will not come to) you will have made changes to yourself that make you a better person. And that's not a bad thing . . .
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
so far all my attempts to be sweet have failed miserable. Not becaus ethey were bad ideas but because she sees them as a desperate attempt to try and trick her or something. I've given her flowers, an awsome birthday gift for a day spa, and free time to do what she wants. Each time I've tried to spend time with her she leaves or refuses to see me. SO that is the biggest hangup right now. I'm just asking her for a chance to see where things might lead us. As I've told her things certainly can't get worse and we're worth at least a shot.
on a good note she has slowly thawed a little bit. She at least is talking to me about some of these issues now which I hope is a step in the right direction.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
If you view them as failures because she didn't immediately jump back into your arms, then she's RIGHT. Don't expect sweet gestures to get immediate results -- they WON'T. And try your best to make them thoughtful, not stereotypical.
Flowers are great -- I love them. Does she? Large gifts like a day at the spa are wonderful -- but likely make her feel pressured.
To most women, ten small, thoughtful gestures -- little notes, noticing she's out of milk and getting some, asking her if she'd like you to pick up anything on your way over, or while you're at the supermarket, etc., etc. -- are worth a HUNDRED times one huge thing, like a spa day.
And remember, the goal of doing these things is NOT to get her to do things your way. It's dual: show her how much you really do care; and make yourself into a more caring and thoughtful person.
*grin* Your mission, should you choose to accept it . . .
Good luck!!!
[ February 03, 2004, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Hope everything works out for you, beatnix. Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
So...I'm still living in my grandparents lake house. I see the kids every day. things are still not very good but they have improved. I actually have spent the last couple of days hanging out with my wife. Last night I even sayed for the night in my own bed with her(in a very clothes on and lots of covers between us kind of way)But that was just for last night, she still isn't ready for me to come home.
She is talking a bit more openly and honestly also. She says she's just doesn't feel the way she used to about me. She's tired of trying to make something work that never had a chance. She has told me, through sobs, that she is sorry because I've been a good husband and its all her that is wrecking everything by the way she felt and was acting. So, i'm not sure, but I take this as a step in the right direction. I keep telling her that I haven't given up on her or us and that I am still fighting.
Basically all she has promised is that she'll keep going to counceling but farther than that she couldn't gaurentee anything. For right now I am happy with that much.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Well, her agreeing to continue with counciling is a positive thing. Good luck beatnix.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
(((beatnix)))
It really sounds as if there may be some hope.
Counseling really is important. You'll need it while making a decision and later on as well, no matter what the decision is.
((((((((((beatnix))))))))))))
Been there. It sucks. I'll be thinking of you.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Spending time with your wife and improved communication. Very good things.
And she's committed to counseling -- great!
Now comes the really hard part. Keep showing her, with as many small, thoughtful actions as you can manage, that you care. Work with your wife and the therapist. Keep in mind that progress is likely, for the most part, to be very slow. Do your best not to push her -- very likely to backfire.
Remind me how old the kids are?
Also, have you checked out this site? It has some helpful stuff, IMO.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote: she is sorry because I've been a good husband and its all her that is wrecking everything by the way she felt and was acting. So, i'm not sure, but I take this as a step in the right direction
You're right to be unsure. I wish I had a foolproof woman-ese translation for you. Anyway, I hope for your children's sake that she continues on the path of getting therapy.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:In the past I have made her a scrap books with pictures, romantic movie quotes and song lyrics, and some original poetry. I gave her this a couple of years ago and have from time to time surprised her with additions to it.
-beatnix in the Valentine's Day thread.
Dude, you nothing to feel guilty about with respect to your involvement in this relationship. Remember that! Working at it is important, but any man who would do this kind of thing, and remember to update it periodically is NOT neglectful, IMHO.
I'm impressed.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Very good point, Bob! I agree, for the most part.
However, while romantic gestures are wonderful and essential, little not-so-romantic day-to-day stuff is in many ways more important. Taking out the garbage without being asked, picking up milk, etc., etc.
Sounds like beatnix has a pretty good handle on both. Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
rivka, I'm glad you said what you did. You're exactly right. The little things all the time matter a lot. Without that, the extras just look like desperation or appeasement (or both).
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
I have to ask this, but, has your wife ever been treated for depression? Judging from the things you've said about her behavior, I'm wondering what is going on under her surface. It sounds like she is feeling guilty and blaming herself. Yeah, I know crying is to be expected, but it can also be a symptom.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
Yes, she actually was hospitalized during high school due to depression. When we first met I had her hauled in because she was talking about poppong some pills, and in the last year she has been taking 100 mg of Zoloft a day. But she really hates to see her phsycologist. She hasn't been in since she was put on the zoloft. FOr what ever reason she just refuses to go back, she claims that she doesn't need some guy to talk to her about her problems. She's said it all and there is nothing new for them to hear. I, of course, have tried to convince her to return to her doctor but that always gets me in trouble so I only metion it from time to time.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
Uh, Beatnix, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but that girl isn't on her Zoloft anymore. Unless you personally have witnessed her taking it every day, I would be willing to bet a very large sum of money that she isn't currently taking it, nor hasn't been taking it for a while now. Time for a trip to the doc. But, uh, for sanity's sake, you might want to have someone else (like her mom or friend) take her, so you don't end up the bad guy in this situation. Just be there for her when she comes back.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
If she's resisting taking the Zoloft (and I think you're likely right about that, Valentine), no one is going to be able to "make" her do so.
OTOH, it certainly IS something to bring up as a concern in counseling, beatnix.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
Well, actually I know she is taking her meds. I bring them to her often enough to know she is still regular with them. But they have definately lost some of the effect the originally had. I have no idea about dosage but she has even mentioned that she feels they are working less and that she may need a stronger dose. But of course that means going back to her doctor, and well, that hasn't happened yet.
But like you said, right now I'm in no position to be pushy, so I do what I can on the DL and hope for the best. One thing that I have going for me is that her mom and I talk about this from time to time and I have her support.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ok.
Regardless of why she's showing signs of depression, it seems to me (this is just IMO) that it needs to be discussed in the counseling you two are undergoing. It is almost certainly NOT the primary issue, but it is an important one, and could conceivably interfere with the counseling process.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
beatnix, as I'm sure you are aware, taking psychoactive medications without consulting a doctor regularly is not a good sign. For one thing, you don't just go on an antidepressive and that's that. There is usually some sort of settling in period during which you have to figure out the right dosage and usually people end up trying different medications over the course of several months or years until they find the one(s) that give them the best therapeutic value and have the fewest side effects that interrupt the person's life in important ways.
To be honest though, knowing what I know now after 20+ years with a clinically depressed spouse, the bottom line is that you can't rely on that person to do anything rational or even in their best interest for the long haul. It's just not part of the symptomology or treatment.
And I "read into" what you've said about her so far that all-too-familiar pattern of glomming onto a fixed NEGATIVE idea and nothing can shake it, no matter how much good there is to counter or how destructive the idea is.
I'm actually sitting here crying, because you are going through what I've been through for so many years. And you love her, I'm sure. Worse yet, you have the children to consider and what is best for them -- mommy/no mommy.
You've said that you have been cruel. Please take a step back and see what you have really been -- an oasis for someone who really needs it. No matter what happens, chances are you are the influence in her life that kept her going this long. Chances are she feels inadequate and guilty over wasting your life (I'm betting she's said this to you numerous times already, but if not, it'll come out soon enough) with someone like her.
This is a very selfish disease. Even when she's thinking of how bad she's been to you, you end up suffering. I don't have the answers and my failed marriage speaks volumes about the value of any advice I might give you at this point in your relationship.
All I can offer is my true empathy and sympathy. This will not be easy. And you have to have a certain amount of detachment so that you are there for you kids.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
I think you mentioned she was on 100mg of Zoloft, which would be in range (50-100mg average) for an adult female. Having been on almost every anti-depressant on the market and working as a tech on the psych wards of hospitals, I can vouch for the fact that they can stop working and a change in dose is often called for, or of course a new medication altogether needs to be tried. I wish I could say that doing one of those two things will make her happy on the spot, but they won't. Expect a change, or no change in 4-6 wks max. I think you'll find she will approach your martial problems with more lucidy when she gets her depression under control, therefore, making the counseling more productive.
((((Beatnix))))
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
Pooka -
thanks for asking.
Not really alot to update.
My wife's doctor upped her dosage to 200mg a day. I'm still living away from home for the time being. We actually haven't talked a whole lot lately, but this is due to the fact that I promised her I'd lay off until our next councling session which is next Thursday(the 4th).
I miss her a lot and I'm miserably depressed most nights (did you know that they replay Leno at about 2:30 every night, I do, now) I'm chain smoking and sitting in my chair and getting really bored with it. I did go out and buy myself a new pair of shoes and a couple shirts yesterday, on her credit card. I know that's extremely childish but it made me smile. But mostly I'm just trying to enjoy my time with the kids and keep the hope alive. I'm still very optomistic that things will work out, I just hate the wait.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
(((beatnix)))
Quit beating yourself up! This depressed behaviour is obviously rubbing off on you. Please stick with us, don't ever think that we aren't here for you.
I can see that this is doing a little good for her, but look at you! Reread these threads! I've listened to you go from absolute optimism to chain-smoking and insomnia. You need to realize that there are those of us that don't want to see you ruined. And that is exactly what is happening, this siuation is ruining you. Quit obsessing over her and occupy your time with something else. Just stay away from bad stuff like drugs and alchohol. I want to see you through this, it pains me to see you hurting for so long.
-scottneb-
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
(((beatnix))) Don't know what to say. But we're rooting for you and your wife to work this out.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Sorry that you have to go through this. If I had much advice I would give it to you but I do not. Chain smoking is bad though... sorry to repeat the warning but you do not want to end up permanently smoking more than you used to, and if things work out with you and your wife then you do not want your kids exposed to that either.
I do not know what faith you are but I will be praying for you.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
beatnix, do you have a personal counselor? You sound like you're suffering symptoms of depression yourself, not that you dont' have any stressors on you right now, or anything.
I admire your willingness to hang in there and save your marriage, if only everyone who got married honored their vows like you have.
I will pray, I hope that you start making progress, I'm glad to hear you're in counseling still and she is willing to go to therapy.
(((beatnix)))
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
(((beatrix)))
Dang, this thread is personally painful for me. If I knew a way to spare you the pain that's coming, I would.
But there isn't.
If you are feeling depressed yourself, and your changed sleep pattern seems to lend credence to that, I would suggest discussing going on an antidepressant for awhile as well. Or a one-time-only prescription for a sleep aid (don't want to become dependent on that stuff!)
You need to break this current rut, though. Sitting in a chair, chain smoking and not sleeping is not a good pattern to fall into. And you run the risk of waking from this period months from now and seeing an uphill climb just to get back to where you started.
It becomes really easy to give up.
But you can't do that. Or rather, you can't let yourself do that.
I'll tell you now, things will get worse. It's unavoidable. And I'm sorry.
But then things will get better. And they'll get better some more. Then you'll look back on this period and not believe that things were ever really that bad, 'cuz you're okay now. And your kids are okay, and whatever way it worked out with your wife is okay too.
But what you are doing right now, with the Leno and the smoking and the sitting around depressed. That's just going to make things worse. It delays the recovery too.
And if you remember only one thing of what I'm telling you, remember this:
Do not let marriage troubles (or divorce) become your defining characteristic.
I know that will make no sense at first. But if you think about the bitter divorced people you've met, you'll begin to understand what I mean. Don't turn it into a lifestyle or an excuse. If you can avoid this trap, you will save yourself much grief over the long haul.
Unfortunately, this is one of those things that really works best if you force yourself to not give in. The temptation is to agree that you have no energy to care (for yourself). That your suffering is too much. And if you let yourself believe that, it will be true. And you'll be that guy.
This is crappy Psychology. But good advice.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
Ok, so I guess I do sound pretty pathetic right now. I guess I just feel pretty abandoned right now. My wife has done some pretty stupid things before and not always been the easiest person to live with but I've always stood by her. I've made my mistakes but my love for her has never waivered.
Plus I also feel like I'm being taken advantage of. She's living in a house that belongs to my grandfather (which is why we could afford to live there) She's driving a new car that we bought from my uncle (and recieved a deal that atcually lost him money), She has the kids, she has me there to still pay all the bills, and she keeps making plans without consulting me, just expexting that I will babysit and let her go run around and do what ever she wants.
I actually told her last night that she's going to wake up one day and realize the mistake she has made, but it may be too late because right now all she is doing is helping build my frustration, anger and resentment.
It been nearly three months that she has been "unsure" of things and every time I ask her if she has given us any thought she says, "No, I don't want to think about it yet" All I can say is "What the F***!" It's almost as if she thinks this is all some kind of game.
But I'm a sucker and love her and still can't give up hope. Damn women. But anyways, thanks for those of you who care and are thinking and praying for us. It is very much appreciated.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
You need to be planning ahead to protect your family's assets and your children. If I were you, I would go see a lawyer now to figure out what's involved to:
1) Start divorce procedings.
2) Get her out of the house.
3) Get custody of the children.
4) Get back the car, or at least 1/2 of it.
The problem right now is that there's absolutely no incentive for her to treat you fairly. That needs to stop.
If she can't do it out love or plain human decency, the only lever you have left is financial.
Don't use the kids as a lever, of course, but it is clear to me that she ought not to end up with custody (at least hearing your side of things...).
And if you do end up with custody, make sure she pays child support.
I'm serious, people do not get a free pass in life. And you shouldering all the responsibilities is not going to make her love you, clearly. So do your fair share and make it clear that she has to do hers.
This person needs a wake up call.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
I have seen a lawyer. He's a family friend and we spoke on a kind of I'll call you again if I need you basis.
I know I've bashed my wife pretty good but she is a good mom and although she is a rotten person to me lately it will be messy thing if and when we start all the legalities.
I'm hesitant to call and get things moving in that direction becaus it seems like I've given up, which I do not do very well. Plus it would be too final. I'm not sure if I'm there yet. I'm mad, hurt, a little pissy and moody but I'm not ready to throw the towl in yet. Seeing the lawyer the first time was hard enough because it felt like a betrayal to my belief in working things out. (of course self preservation kicked in and got me over that and that may have to be the case again)
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Yeah, I understand.
You'll know when it's the right time. Then you'll wait an extra month...or six
Been there too.
Good luck!
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: and she keeps making plans without consulting me, just expexting that I will babysit and let her go run around and do what ever she wants
Sorry, beatnix, but you REALLY hit a nerve in me with this statement.
While I don't agree with whatever your wife might be "running around doing" (since I don't know what it is) -- when you are watching your OWN kids it is NOT babysitting!
This just used to enrage me about my own ex (on a whole, we get along great).
These are your kids. If you were still in the house and she had to run somewhere, would you be calling it "babysitting"??? It is PARENTING! You are the father! You are SUPPOSED to take care of your kids once in awhile.
Sorry -- you just really hit a nerve.
Farmgirl
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Actually, Farmgirl, too many guys DO think of it as babysitting when they watch their kids while their wife is not there. And too many WOMEN use the same phrasing too -- "Oh, is your husband babysitting?"
Always bugged the heck out of me too.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I guess I shouldn't be so sensitive to it, really. I never realized it still bugged me until beatnix said it.
It was just that years ago when I got divorced, my ex took off out of state (I actually didn't divorce him until about two years after he left, because I had no idea where he was). So I had the kids with me 24/7, obviously, with no breaks. I love my kids, but even mom's need a break once in awhile for sanity.
So then when he waltzed back into the area several years later and started occassionally seeing the kids again, it was always okay if it was his idea to see them. But if I ever called and said, "hey, can the kids stay with you for a bit today so I can do..XXX" he would grumble about having to "babysit" for me.
So it just made me a tad touchy.
Farmgirl
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
I agree babysitting isn't the right term in most cases. Time with my kids is a joy and I don't considerite it babysitting at all. What I meant is that she sees me in that way. When this all went down and I moved out I told her I would stop and see the kids daily(which I do) and that I would stay with them on the nights that she works. they have even stayed with me. My problem, which I did not explain very well is that she has called me on a number of occations and told me things like, "I made plans to go to dinner tonight with my friends you need to be over her at 8:00" or "You need to watch the girls tonight because I'm going to a pampered chef party" In and of them selves these are not bad things, it's the idea that she has acted like I have nothing better to do then sit around and wait for her to call so I can come running over and let her have a social life. And since I don't have anything better to do and since I have sacrifiesed my happiness, mental stability, social life and marriage because of her it really ticks me off. So, I feel like I'm only a babysitter in her eyes. It's the lack of respect she has for me right now that is driving me nuts.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Thank you for clarifying that beatnix. That makes me feel much better.
I hope you can handle it if you DO end up with custody and have your kids all the time. It is a trial, but if you love them as you appear to, I think you will be fine.
Glad you are still there for your kids.
Farmgirl
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
Just thought I'd update. I know I haven't been around much, at least I haven't posted much lately but This has always been a good vent for me and the support really has been nice.
So any ways, I'm still living at home. Things are not good and not bad. They just really aren't anything at all. Which I guess kind of sucks. She works at night alot and we aren't seeing much of eachother other than in passing. We aren't really fighting anymore which is good but we really haven't spent much quality time together.
JUST A WARNING, the following may qualify as TMI for some. But Since I'm not shy, I'll share.
The other night we had, well how do I put this, marrital realtions for the first time since before Christmas. (aren't I a lucky guy) That turned out to be a real bad move. She told me that she realized finally that she had absolutely no feeling for me. She didn't even feel a spark. She told me she had realy hoped to feel some type of connection and was disappointed but at the same time relieved to know for sure. Now, I don't think once roll in the hay should be a nail in the coffin just as if the night ended up being amazing I wouldn't expect things to suddenly be perfect but it definately wasn't what I wanted to hear.
END OF PERSONAL INFO, you may read on safely without throwing up now.
So the last few days have been weird. We just don't know where to go. Niether one of us wants to leave, but we both realize something has to change. I've suggested trying to break out of the same old rut we've been in for so long. We don't spend any time together and she has been reluctant to go out with me. But my idea has been that a fun night out is just that, a fun night out. It won't fix things but it will remind us that we can enjoy eachothers company and from there who knows. If we do something once a week or twice a month or something like that, eventually just by having fun and gettin away from all the crap we may rediscover what we lost. It also may not do anything but at least it would be a serious effort and we would know for sure.
I keep saying we, I should probably say her. I know I love her and I know I want to remain. She is the one who says she has lost all feeling for me. Maybe I'm trying to hold on to something that isn't there but It's tough to do anything else.
Anyways, thats the update.
Oh yea, by the way, the dog is awesome. She is a real sweet heart, full of energy but a lot of fun.
Posted by John L (Member # 6005) on :
If you want to put her on the spot, ask her who she does feel that way towards. If no one, then ask her why she thinks she stopped feeling that way towards you. Tell her she doesn't have to answer right away. Ask her why she used to feel the way she did for you, and what has changed exactly. Ask her if there is now a grudge between the two of you. Ask yourself, too.
Or just ask her to go to counseling. You should do the latter regardless.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
I have and we have. She just cries and says she doens't know why things cahnged. and the councelor was worthless because we were going for different reasons. I wanted to fix things and she just didn't want to look like she wasn't trying.
I've evenasked her if she could have things the way they were before would she. She answered yes, which was a good thing but she doesn't see whow we could ever get back there. and she doesn't really believe that she can get back feeling that just aren't there for her any more. She, by the way, is a horibble pesimist.
Posted by John L (Member # 6005) on :
Well, the reason she cried is because she probably couldn't come up with an answer on the spot. Give her time. Tell her to think about it. Ask her to see a counselor again, no matter what the reason.
[edit]Aaaaaaand, I think you should stop pigeonholing your wife so much. I know you don't mean to, and I know you probably mean the best, but your anger and frustration being bottled up (maybe not so much) is showing even in the text you write. This is why I said ask yourself if you're holding a grudge, too. You both need to work out the discomfort you have with each other. You'll have to do that before you can even think of properly reconciling the marriage.
[ April 23, 2004, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: John L ]
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Spot on, John.
beatnix, you have my best wishes.
[Edit to quote:
quote:and the councelor was worthless because we were going for different reasons. I wanted to fix things and she just didn't want to look like she wasn't trying.
Beatnix, what did the counsellor have to say when you brought this point up?]
[ April 23, 2004, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
The councelor made the point that she was there so that must mean something. Yea, yea, yea. I know. But it is pretty tough to be understanding when an "I love You" is answered with an "I know" or "OK" constantly. And the only time she wants to spend with me is the time it takes her to walk out of the room.
Posted by Magson (Member # 2300) on :
Beatnix, have you considered having her evaluated for Borderline Personality Disorder? It's a depressive disorder that has several other characteristics as well, and has its own issues above and beyond the depression. The medications are different than "just" anti-depressants also.
I don't know the whole situation, but several things you have mentioned on this thread and other threads about your situation indicate that she has several of the characteristics. You may want to look into it. BPD can require hospitalization -- it's THAT serious.
Good luck in all your endeavours.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
beatnix, I'm not the best source of feedback for you. I know this pretty clearly, as my bias is huge. I left my ex-husband, but I tried counselling with him first. Actually, we tried it twice, with two different people, but he ended up calling them both worthless (and blew up in anger at both of them, too, for criticizing him).
From my perspective, as the wife, his inability to participate in a moderated discussion where his actions were called into question as much as mine was indicative of how our marriage went. It just further underscored for me that we could not function together as a healthy married couple. (If he wouldn't participate in working on things without melting down -- either sobbing in self-flagellation or red-faced rage, neither of which was helpful in addressing our problems -- when a third party was present, I sure wasn't going to be able to do it with him on my own. )
Now, your situation by definition is different. You are different people who've been through different experiences than I and my ex had. But I'm pretty sure I can give you an inkling of where her mind is likely to be: she may have given up, she may not have yet, but if you don't use the counsellor effectively to deal with your own concerns, I bet it's over.
I think the best shot you have at getting somewhere healthy (wherever that may be) is to continue actively to address things in a mediated, third-party situation. That means counselling. It guarantees you time set aside when you know she will be paying attention to this, too, and it guarantees that you will have someone helping make sure you are heard. The downside (sort of) is that you will have to hear her out, too. That may be painful. But if you are frustrated with her crying and not having answers yet, then bring that up in counselling, as well. Get some professional help on how to deal with it.
Of course, I am way biased, as I said, and I'm already uncomfortable about co-opting your thread to talk about me. You certainly don't need to justify your actions or words to me, anyway -- just think about it, okay?
I'll sit back and just continue to send you good vibes, now. ~~~~~beatnix~~~~~
[ April 23, 2004, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Just in clarification:
quote: BPD can require hospitalization -- it's THAT serious.
Personality disorders in themselves do not warrant hospitalization, no matter how severe. By definition, personality disorders are non-psychotic, as they are merely non-functional (or poorly-functional) ways of interacting with others and dealing with the world. And even with psychosis, only a person who puts herself or another at immediate risk for loss of life or long-term physical damage warrants hospitalization -- that is, it isn't the disorder itself that requires hospitalization, but the immediacy of preventing life-threatening consequences.
Otherwise, all hospitalization must be voluntary, and issues often are best addressed in the outpatient setting, unless immediate consequences present a risk.
By the way, my ex-husband accused me of being crazy when I first tried to leave him. He called up the director of my department and notified both the Chancellor of the University and the police.
The seriousness (and inappropriateness, actually) of these claims was something I tried to address with him in counselling. It was unhelpful. I'd recommend that beatnix address any concerns he haas first in counselling, as there those concerns can be vetted by a professional, rather than broadcasting those concerns to his wife's friends, family, and work. That would likely be unhelpful, too.
It sure won't go a long way toward convincing her that he is a positive force in her life, especially if those claims are motivated out of anger and frustration rather than true concern.
Okay, that's it. I'm stepping out. Too close to home, and this is your thread, beatnix. Good luck, and I mean that with all my heart. (And my apologies for TMI about me in your thread for support here, beatnix.)
[ April 23, 2004, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
PsychCentral has a thorough, well-grounded take on hospitalization for BPD:
quote:Hospitalization Hospitalization is often a concern with people who suffer from borderline personality disorder because they so often visit hospital emergency rooms and are sometimes seen on inpatient units because of severe depression.
People with this disorder often present in crisis at their local community mental health center, to their therapist, or at the hospital emergency room. While an emergency room is an immediate source of crisis intervention for the patient, it is a costly treatment and regular visits to the E.R. should be discouraged. Instead, patients should be encouraged to find additional social support within their community (including self-help support groups), contact a crisis hotline, or contact their therapist or treating physician directly. Emergency room personnel should be careful not to treat the person with borderline personality disorder in blind conjunction with another set of therapists or doctors who are treating the patient for the same problem at another facility. Every attempt should be made to contact the client's attending physician or primary therapist as soon as possible, even before the administration of medication which may be contraindicated by the primary treatment provider. Crisis management of the immediate problem is usually the key component to effective treatment of this disorder when it presents in a hospital emergency room, with discharge to the patient's usual care provider.
Inpatient treatment often takes the form of medication in conjunction with psychotherapy sessions in groups or individually. *****This is an appropriate treatment option if the person is experiencing extreme difficulties in living and daily functioning. It is, however, relatively rare to be hospitalized in the U.S. for this disorder. Long-term care of the person suffering from borderline personality disorder within a hospital setting is nearly never appropriate.***** The typical inpatient stay for someone with borderline personality disorder in the U.S. is about 3 to 4 weeks, depending upon the person's insurance. Since this treatment is so expensive, it is getting more difficult to obtain. Results of such treatment are also mixed. While it is an excellent way of helping stabilize the client, it is usually too short a time to attain significant changes within the individual's personality makeup. [emphasis added]
As my last BTW, I was never accused of having BPD, but rather depression. Which was true, but which was markedly exacerbated by trying to live with someone who actively undermined my ability to cope and function. On the other hand, I learned how and why it was important for me to insist clearly on having my needs met, and I'm pretty much okay now. I'm certainly much more healthy, and much much happier.
But then, this is beatnix's thread, as I keep reminding myself. I didn't post in detail to you before, beatnix, because I knew this would happen. Arrgh. <--- hitting self in head icon
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