I gotta give props to the people in the Double Standard thread for thinking of this...we've needed a thread for this a long time.
You guys are right...girls get too much of the burden and too much of the cutting-down when it comes to staying chaste, or at least having safe sex.
We need to talk about guys...now.
Why do guys think it's more attractive or cool to sleep around as much as possible? Are there girls that dig that? I think the right kind of girls are looking for faithful guys, and that's more attractive.
What can be done, now, to deprogram the male brain, and REPROGRAM it to be kind, faithful and loving to females?
(Obviously I'm not talking about the men here at Hatrack...we know you're all true blue!)
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I'm in favor of the electro-shock option....
Posted by John L (Member # 6005) on :
<--- is a total cad
The idea is honor: teach them that, and the rest will begin to fall in place.
<--- is an honorable cad
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Actually I assumed the first post would be from Nathan or some other guy saying "Let's have sex."
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
I thought that that was what marriage was-- the civilization of the male animal.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
I think there need to be commercials on MTV with attractive women saying that they like guys who haven't slept around and that "playas" are a real turn-off.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
oops...to Sachiko---> Nah, it's just tying it down. Eventually it'll gnaw it's leg off to get away and philander again.
Yeah, if I had cash I'd be paying for all kinds of commercials myself.
[ February 20, 2004, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I like the std-testing commercial where the girl is sitting on the bed and the guy walks up to her and walks right into a see-through wall.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Nono, not Nathan.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
eeeerrrrrrrrrgggg. I refuse to have to spend my life trying to tame one of those stupid goons. I'd rather bring a timber wolf in my house than some dumb behind man. If i must have one, he should be housebroken already. But I have other options.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Girls?
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Well, my opinion on men and women is highly religious in nature.
It seems like the great struggle for men in life is to separate the two halves: the natural man and the godly man. Brain/soul vs. penis and biceps.
Whereas it seems like the feminine challenge is to be totally integreted. One of the most divine (I'm not saying pleasant or easy, I mean spiritually significant) experiences in a woman's life is also the most animal: giving birth.
I feel for men, really, and for the internal divisions they seem to struggle with.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
That's pretty true. Women often want to be the best of both worlds...very mental and spiritual, and yet also natural. But guys have to decide when it's the best time to be one or the other. Spiritual in loving your family, natural in protecting it.
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Yeah... I got married as a teenager, and I am so surprised by what I ddon't know about men.
One of the most surprising is how much the male ego is bound up in the job or career.
You can tell a man he's a wonderful husband, a great dad, a fantastic lover, the light of your life, and (for you churchy people out there) a good soul, but none of it seems to matter if their job sucks.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Yep, we're dealing with that right now.
Posted by Anti-Chris (Member # 4452) on :
I'll have you know that I have yet to hurt a lady in terms of love.
Thats what happens when you are eternally single. Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Oh?
My sympathies!
I think men, really, are more emotional than women are. Gals can be so much more practical about emotional situations; guys are led by very strong feelings.
I mean that in a nice way, guys. That's good thing.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Nathan, you remind me so much of this guy I had a huge crush on in High School...it's not even funny. He says he's never getting married either...it's weird how everything you say reminds me of him.
And you thought you were so original. Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Ever feel like your life is one big Truman Show and they're just recycling actors?
[ February 20, 2004, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Sachiko ]
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
The motivating factor behind men, I steadily insist, is inadequacy. But, still, on a recent poll on what's most important in a partner, women ranked chastity as dead last. They clearly want someone experienced. And someone with a lot of experience is, like as not, going to be a real son of a bitch, as far as women are concerned. Some men who sleep around (which is pretty much all of them) claim they're not materialistic and insensitive, to which one could reply, "Then why aren't you still with her? Or the one after that?"
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
They ranked chastity dead last?
Good grief...who were the women bing polled?
All you men out there: chastity is attractive!
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
I'm fully housebroken, and I won't pressure anyone into having sex with me. I'm pro-abstinence.
So, what do you say to some casual sex?
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
Yeah, chastity was number 18 out of 18. Sexual pleasure is a big thing, and I guess they want to be able to count it in minutes.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*echoes Sachiko* Good grief! Who did they ask? That's not true at all!
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
In a partner, or in a sexual partner?
Because that would give some seriously skewed results. If you are looking for just a buddy, then your criteria is going to be wildly different than if your looking for something else.
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
True.
Because ranking chastity dead last in a list of traits for a sexual partner makes sense.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Flirts are okay. Skanks are not.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
I guess the vast majority of people aren't looking for partners as much as they are a good time. Or maybe they consider the two to be the same.
[ February 20, 2004, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Book ]
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Must. Kill. Lincon.
Hobbes Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Virgin boys are cute. There is something so... endearing about a guy saving it for the right and special woman (or man in some cases) It's just... nice... Like that guy in Terminator 1. Wasn't he wonderful?
Posted by Dante (Member # 1106) on :
In a few months I am going to turn thirty. Barring any mind-shatteringly amazing turn of events, I will do so as a virgin.
It's not that I don't want to have sex. Whoa howdy, trust me, it's not that. Nor is it that I haven't had the opportunity. It's that I decided a long time ago to wait until marriage for sex, and I haven't found the right person yet.
So I'm a virginal, intensely heterosexual, average-looking, fairly bright, ridiculously over-educated, stable guy who has never cheated on a girlfriend and is looking for a long-term relationship. And I'm about to turn thirty without it.
Double standards seem to cut both ways, eh?
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
The unfortunate phrase comes to mind about nobody wanting to buy a cow that gives free milk.
My bishop believes that men are given a stron g sexual drive so that they'll get married. This presupposes a strong enough sense of male honor that they'll want to get their goodies from the legal snack shop.
Based on the evidence I live with, I'd agree.
I think it's amaaaazing how men can seperate sex and love, though. I.e., how men can sleep with bed material but will marry wife material, and rarely the twain shall meet.
I had a friend who got pregnant by an RM who didn't want to marry her because she was a woman pregnant outside of marriage, and way below his standards.
Of course, then there was the other girl, who, when asked by her bishop if she'd consider marrying her baby's father, said, "I couldn't marry him! He smokes!"
I guess hypocrites are hypocrites, no matter what the sex. The difference being, like PSI said, that women bear the brunt (and the children) of both male and female foolishness.
Posted by Anti-Chris (Member # 4452) on :
quote: Nathan, you remind me so much of this guy I had a huge crush on in High School...it's not even funny. He says he's never getting married either...it's weird how everything you say reminds me of him.
And you thought you were so original.
1. You expect me to rush in here saying something like "lets have sex." That stung the eensiest bit, but the only person I have to blame for that image is myself, I suppose.
2. So, the image you have of me is like a guy you had a crush on in High School. So, you had a crush on a guy that would walk around asking girls for sex or something? If so, its a little bit of an answer to your original post.
3. I don't claim to be original. I just claim to be me. But then again... did HE ever where orange tights? I don't think so. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
This thread is kind of disapointing. But I guess just yesterday I decided that male hatred is a way the powers that be keep women from grasping for any real power in the world. Yeah, sure, raising the kids is the real power but a lot of folks don't even raise their own kids anymore. And wasn't there just and anti-anti-Chris thread? This is so weird...
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Which person is hating males? I know I don't. I respect and love them. Which post, specifically, disappoints?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Men are so beautiful and adorable when they are not acting stupid. And the same can be said of women. I don't hate them. I just hate the stupid ones.
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Really, I think a lot of problems come about because women hate femininity, as taught to them by other women and some men. I've often (especially at high school and coolege) felt the pressure to despise housework and mock motherhood and to try to be just like the guys.
So many girls complain about how horrible pedestals are (even my husband says that men put women on pedestals so they can look up their skirts) but I wish they were still around. I wish some women hadn't complained about having doors opened for them or seats given up to them.
I think women demanding not to be treated like ladies has yielded the unsurprisingly result of women not being treated like ladies.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
What is feminimity? (sp) I think I am techically in some ways not a woman because I never primp or get all gussied up
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
My opinion, because no one asked ( ) this is where the media is doing harm, not in violent video games. If you see sitcoms where men are just after sex all the time, where men are judged by how often they "get some", if you see them enough you will believe it. At least if you don't know any better. I really think parents have stopped trying to teach their children differently from television (not mine, parents in general). They feel freedom of choice means lack of input, when it should mean instruction and than freedom of action. Now most of the moral instruction children are recieving is from the media, and let's face it, most of that is copmletely stereotypical.
I don't think that just blanket attacking media is very productive, and if that's all the problem was, there probably wouldn't be a problem. Parents need to spend time with their children and teach them things. Things like morality and not being forced into any stereotype. Making good choices, things like this. You better believe my kids are going to get sick of me telling them I'll love them no matter how they choose but I'll be happier if they choose right.
Hobbes Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Femininity in the sense that women have the babies, not men, and that it's okay to be a mom. And okay and even desirable to be a woman, with all the differences that entails, instead of trying to be a man.
Not primping. Even men primp. That's just vanity. Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
But does that mean that I have to wear a dress and wear pink? Hobbes, excellent points. It's what I hate about these sitcoms >.<
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
Oh, hey. A stereotype thread.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Icarus's parent's sure raised him right!
I'm suddenly reminded of Simpsons:
quote:Teenager1: Ohh, it's the bowling ball guy, he's cool.
Teenager2: Are you being sarcastic dude?
Teenager1: I don't even know any more.
Hobbes Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Nathan, I'm thinking she had to have gotten you confused with someone else. That's SO not the image you project.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I agree with those who are saying that sitcoms are not only unfunny, but wildly inaccurate in reflecting human nature.
One thing that was finally told to me...The reason there is a stereotype that guys can't commit is because they won't commit lightly. I don't know if it was this thread or the other one, but I agree with whoever said that guys are the real romantics, in general. It's much scarier and more hesitating to say things like I love you and to commit when it is irrevocable and you fall completely. Also, most guys outside of sheer exploration years are SO much happier in a stable relationship. Especially once they have gotten used to a good one, they fall apart without it.
[ February 21, 2004, 03:55 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
Sitcom? Is that what comes on before Farscape?
Anyway, I don't think boys over the age of 15 or so sleep around in order to laugh about it in the locker room. They do it because they like it.
I don't think there's anything sexist to assert that, outside of a mutually committed relationship, it's the woman's job to entice the man into monogamy. The principle running both ways, naturally -- in order to counteract the old axiom "boyfriends are obstacles, not barriers," the man needs to be confident in his own self-worth lest he devolve into clinginess.
Posted by butterfly (Member # 5898) on :
outside the realm of this conversation: why do guys who look good turn out so stupid?
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Why limit that statement to guys?
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
Are you calling me stupid?
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
Ok, serious reply time. Quick local survey: the biggest "hunk" among my group of close friends is a Marshall Scholar with 2 published CS journal articles and a bunch of international robotics championships. The top candidate on my internal list of (female) cuties is a double-major with a singing voice like an angel. The stupidest people I've run into at college were also the ones who never learned important definitions like "shower" and "razor."
Of course, as any such comparison will demonstrate, the plural of anecdote is not "data." Do what we advise smart guys to do when they start to get dishearted at the state of the world: turn off the TV, stop going to crappy bars, pick up a new hobby, and keep your eyes open.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
As good as intentions are, I can't get out of my head that this is what this thread is really about:
Boys are stupid.
Boys are stinky.
You've seen the t-shirts right?
There is only one thing that males are, universally, without exception. There is only one affliction from which males to be deprogrammed--
Selfishness.
But you ladies know all about that. Intimate experience and all . . .
The truth of the matter is, young men need to be told to embrace the characteristics that make them men: Ambition, Drive, even Aggression. But there are no male role models to guide them how to use these traits to build community, because modernist thinking has condemned these characteristics as barbaric.
That is the modern thinking, and it is evidenced here in this thread: Men are natural barbarians, and women are meant to tame them. Civilize them.
Baloney.
ALL people are naturally barbarians. It's just that in this day and age, women's selfishness is praised as independence, and men's selfishness is condemned.
Hypocrisy abounds.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
Brasher than I, but well said. I've been writing a lot about these sexual tensions, but if there's something you can't call my posts to date, it's apologetic. (OT: I always hate having the 49th post.) In so many words, don't expect to deprogram me anytime soon.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:That is the modern thinking, and it is evidenced here in this thread: Men are natural barbarians, and women are meant to tame them. Civilize them.
Baloney.
"Modern thinking"? You mean scientific theory?
(I enjoyed the post, though, Scott. Even though I hardly ever agree with you, and we usually cross forum paths just as you're waking up snarky and I'm just heading to bed cranky, you're not such a bad guy. )
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
So, if we are going to go as far as deprogramming, why not just collect a large amount of sperm and well, kill us all off?
If I am not to be a man, in nature, with my self, and personal struggles, What am I to be?
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I find most of the posts on this thread to be marginally to extremely naive.
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
Right, serious.
I do plan on abstinence until I get married. I want to wait until I've found who I'm going to be with my whole life. And I've found, actually, that when girls find out about that, they're more relaxed around me. Which is nice. I suppose normally there seems to be some pressure, huh.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I personally happen to find ambition irresistably sexy....
Anyways. I don't understand why it's supposed to be the woman's responsibility to keep the guy, you know, wearing deoderant and whatnot. I mean, don't you guys worry about looking good whether or not there's a woman around?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
rav, if we did that, who would I makeout with?! Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
well, There would still be women... you know...
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote: Femininity in the sense that women have the babies, not men, and that it's okay to be a mom. And okay and even desirable to be a woman, with all the differences that entails, instead of trying to be a man.
If this is the definition of femininity, then I am not feminine. I do not want to have children. I have lots of friends who want to be moms, and that's fine, that's what they want...but it's not for me.
And it's funny, you'd think that, with all this talk on how motherhood is "despised" and women's "selfishness" is labeled "independence," people would accept this without comment.
But they don't. I've been married almost four years, and people ALWAYS ask if I have children and then look disappointed when I don't, or ask me why I don't, or make some speech about how great motherhood is. I'm sure motherhood IS great--but it isn't something that I want. So, the whole war on motherhood thing? Is baloney. Complete and utter baloney.
Ahem. </rant>
Fresh hot bagels and apologies to anyone I've offended.
Edited because conjunctions are our friends.
[ February 21, 2004, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Megan ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Am I weird that I've known a lot of female playas? Am I wierd in that I've found the proportion to be about equal among the sexes, but men are usually more honest about it?
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
When it comes down to it, I think that our eyes are clouded by stereotype. Instead of looking at a person and WONDERING about them, we say "Hmm.. Anglo-saxon male, late 20's, wearing preppy clothes" or whatever, and draw conclusions from there. Instead, what if you looked for a way to connect with the person FIRST? He has on an interesting watch. He is frowning. Instead of using our prejudices to form walls, why not try to find out who that person really is? I don't like being pigeon-holed, and sometimes I take a perverse delight sharing things from inside of me that are different from the norm. It immediately turns some people off, but it charms several others. And then they feel free to lay their stereotype baggage aside for a few moments and just be themselves.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Storm: No, I know plenty of female playas.
Posted by knightswhosayni! (Member # 4096) on :
::pats nate and mark::
YOu know, I find this thread really degrading, and I'm female. I don't think you're giving guys(especially the hatrack ones) Nearly enough credit. Women ask an awful lot of them, and most do pretty well. Guys aren't dumb, dense sometimes, yes, but not dumb.
Ni!
[ February 21, 2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: knightswhosayni! ]
Posted by Anti-Chris (Member # 4452) on :
I suppose for sake of all men every where, I'll go ahead and admit this:
From 8th to 12 grade, every valentines day, I got a dozen carnations and handed them out to girls that I knew.
There we have it. Boys rule. 'Nuff said.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Anything good come of your efforts?
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
If your experience is anything like mine of that nature. No. Nothing showed.
Posted by Marek (Member # 5404) on :
quote: Anyways. I don't understand why it's supposed to be the woman's responsibility to keep the guy, you know, wearing deoderant and whatnot. I mean, don't you guys worry about looking good whether or not there's a woman around?
I went to an all male highschool, and my experiance was that while guys don't try to llok awful when there are no girls around, they are much less concerned about looking good, some were hardly concerned about it at all.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Nathan, where's MY carnation? Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: You expect me to rush in here saying something like "lets have sex."
No, I expect you to:
A. Be flirty, which you seem to do a lot of. B. Make a joke. Not everything you say is a joke at all, but you do often make them.
Lots of people at Hatrack make jokes about threads...it's part of the reason we're funny. Saying I expect one of you to make a joke about what I said wasn't an insult, it was an acknowledgement that you guys are funny.
I'm starting to get bored with the "I'm so offended" routine.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
*toast to the Men of Hatrack
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
I like guys.
I especially like my husband.
The other night, he was complaining because I had said something in girl language and he hadn't caught it. He said it wasn't fair to expect guys to be able to speak girl all of a sudden. That's fair, and I told him so.
But I also told him that he can't expect girls to stop speaking girl and start speaking guy all of a sudden, either. We have to compromise and both learn to deal with each other as best we can.
I think that, rather than "deprogramming" guys, we girls should learn to deal with them as guys. Guys should try to eliminate a few of their less-attractive habits if they want to be able to live with a girl, and girls should also work to become someone a guy can live with. It works both ways.
We're people, not angels, and both genders have a long way to go.
Posted by Alice (Member # 6083) on :
That was very well said, Brinestone.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Is it really just a gender problem, or a problem with individuals making the rest look bad? for instance, a woman dates a guy who treats her like steaming dog crap and breaks her heart. Would she get into her head that all men are jerks and not just this one just as a man might think that all women are horrible skanks due to one woman? Really men should be insulting and complain about how often they are trashed. On movies, in books... on all these shows. It's insulting to all the men who are lovely and don't act...so....... slutty...
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
quote:Really men should be insulting and complain about how often they are trashed.
Synesthesia: This isn't a deprogram the other race thread, This is a deprogram males thread.
I think that some women believe that men actually don't care, or can't be hurt in the same ways a woman can.
quote: just as a man might think that all women are horrible skanks due to one woman?
Olivet, Jenny Gardner, Brinestone, KWSNI, Myr, and many others here on Hatrack show me that Women are not ALL bad, and I know that; I may still say they are but deep down I still love to talk to them, and hang out with them EVEN though I've been hurt before.
Posted by Anti-Chris (Member # 4452) on :
Mark was right. Carnations got me a "Oh thank you" and that was that. But I was still cool with that.
Mack, you mean you didn't get it? I... uh... sent it in the mail. It's the post office's fault.
And PSI, I was trying to use that to illustrate a point that I sounded like a guy you had a crush on in high school. You stated in the first post that you wondered if girls dig guys who brag about sex and such, then you (even jokingly) expected me to come in here and say 'Wanna have sex' or be flirtatious. If you expected me, even jokingly, to say that, and yet I reminded you of a guy you had a crush on, then that would be the answer to your first post. And yes, it stung a bit, but I wasn't offended as much as I could have been. Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Mark, am I bad?!
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Only when you beat me at scrabble, mack...
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
i think he ment to exclude me.
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
"and many others here on Hatrack show me that Women are not ALL bad"
Please don't make me list all of the female hatrackers I talk to... plz!!!
And celia, you fit in ANOTHER catagory all together.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
Posted by luthe (Member # 1601) on :
quote:. I mean, don't you guys worry about looking good whether or not there's a woman around?
No.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Why not?
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Nathan,
Insulting was certainly not how I meant to be. And yeah, that guy probably would have made the joke, but the important thing is that, what would have made the joke funny would have been the complete contrast with his character. The reason I expected you to say it would have been because it's obvious that you're the last guy anyone would really expect to have that flippant attitude toward sex, which would have made the joke more funny. (At least to me.)
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
CT, that's Trogdor's job.
-Bok
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
::spreads a thick layer of butter over toast, sprinkles with cinnamon and sugar, enjoys::
Thanks CT!
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
It's funny that I started this thread and it never really occured to me to give my real opinion on the subject. It may be due to the fact that it was started half in jest as a response to the Double Standard thread.
There seems to be an idea among many women that "de-programming" the male mind should result in a creature that would happily go along with whatever the female mind can conceive of. I'll probably get flamed for saying this but I'm going to anyway. A huge problem that many women have is the ability to change their minds on a whim, and not always on solid information. And yet we get so annoyed when the men in our lives continue to see things the same way they did yesterday and the day before, without any regard whatsoever for the whimsy ruling much of our decision-making. Wouldn't it be much better if men would just agree with whatever we say? It would certainly create more harmony, at least for a while.
So, sometimes (but not for all women, certainly), when women talk about the perfect guy, they may mean a man that will play dead.
One day a woman may say:
"Don't pull the chair out for me. I'm an independent person and I don't need you doing things for me!"
But the next day it becomes:
"Why won't you treat me like a lady?"
Or:
"Why do you think that I'll drop everything to have sex with you whenever you want!"
becomes:
"Why don't you ever want to fool around?"
Alot of times it seems that men can never do things right in regards to their partners. We want you to work hard and provide; we want you to take the day off when we need you home. We want you to give us alot of special attention, but why are you ignoring the kids?
The fact that most men will continue to do things the same way can be very frustrating for us. Sometimes we may even convince ourselves we'd be happier if you'd just do what we want.
But we Hatrack ladies know better.
Unfortunately, the idea may still be rampant in society, and media helps by portraying men as dolts who'll do whatever will make their wives stay off their back. (Although sometimes that happens in real life, too. Hopefully in none of OUR relationships though. )
The truth is that men are great. The characteristics they are born with are not impairments, they are strengths. There have been so many times that I'm glad my husband said "No" to something that would have turned out terrible.
My point is that I don't think it's a good idea to try and change a man so that he's no longer male.
But I do think it's important to offer good role models for men from a young age, so that their characteristics can be developed in such a way that they do good for the man, his family, and the rest of society, instead of being detrimental.
Men are strong and often impulsive:
Good uses: 1. Protection of his body, his family, and his possessions. 2. Taking advantage of a good deal.
Bad uses: 1. Beating up the elderly man that dinged your car in traffic. (Stuff like this is happening more and more each day.) 2. Wasting money on a get-rich-quick scheme.
Notice that I'm not suggesting that men should stop being impulsive. I just think that men need a chance to learn how to control their impulses so that they work to their advantage.
In both sexes, the things that most define each of us are often the things that we need the most training in order to control. In men, I think it's impulses. In women, it's our emotions.
I think that both sexes need to be de-programmed in some ways.
[ February 23, 2004, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Nathan, are you sure not actually my brother? He did that all through high school too!
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
PSI Teleport.
Please make up your mind, do you hate males? or what?
In reading your posts I get very mixed ideas.
quote: A huge problem that many women have is the ability to change their minds on a whim, and not always on solid information. And yet we get so annoyed when the men in our lives continue to see things the same way they did yesterday and the day before, without any regard whatsoever for the whimsy ruling much of our decision-making.
Then you go on to say:
quote: Men are strong and often impulsive:
And how that we apparently can't learn to control ourselves. I wonder if every man actually didn't control ANYTHING about themselves what would your picture of men REALLY be like?
I know that I'm not a woman, and to claim that I know what is going on in their head, UNLESS I know them personally it would be supremely far fetched. *or any other person for that matter, gender beside.*
I don't think that clumping "people" into groups and saying anything; will get anything done.
[ February 23, 2004, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: raventh1 ]
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
I know you mean well, but I instinctively disagree with any sentence that begins "Men are . . . " or "Women are . . . "
I think we should teach all people to be honorable, diligent, sensitive, and so forth. I think all children should have good role models of what an adult is.
But someone will just come in here and tell me I'm too PC. Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Hey Icky...
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
You PC dog.
Get a mac.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: And how that we apparently can't learn to control ourselves.
Did I say that? I said yes they CAN, and the best way is with a good role model.
and Icky, I realize that most people don't like generalizations like "Men are..." or "Women are..." but I think it's because there's always a chance that there will be a person that doesn't fit that who will get upset. But, like economics, it doesn't have to be perfect. It only has to create a fairly accurate model from which people can draw conclusions.
Without being able to make some generalizations about the world around you (whether consciously or subconsciously) it is very difficult to predict ANYTHING, which is necessary for survival.
Example: "Feeding the squirrels will cause them to become used to your feeding, and they will no longer be able to survive without what you give them."
Somewhere there may be one or two squirrels that will always be able to feed themselves regardless, but they don't have the ability to gripe about how they are not depicted fairly.
It is impossible to accurately represent everyone on the planet, because such a model would be too difficult to use.
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
Making complete generalizations about the entire world is just as false as making no generalizations, IE make educated guesses based upon the individuals you deal with. *iow, take the information you have from other individuals, and apply it to similar cases; Not general cases.
Being a good role model to me is NOT following in the same ways as the ones you wish to see die out.
If you become the exception to the rule, and people see that the exception is better off, then the exception will become the rule. *If I a man, treat women very well, then I think that the women I treat well, will see that not ALL men are bad, and give other men a chance.* -- note the "IF"
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
This is kind of funny, to me, since I've been sort of exploring this idea in a novel I'm writing.
It's set in a very uncomfortable place for me, and I think that's why it interests me so much. The idea of what is really 'male' and what is 'female' in terms of behavior, etc.
I CAN promise you that when a person says, "Men are like this and women are like that" they are going to be wrong, at least partially. Generalizations are by their nature general, and therefore wrong when it comes to almost any given individual.
Humans like to categorize and sort people into neat little stacks like legos, but it isn't that easy.
Posted by Anti-Chris (Member # 4452) on :
You know, Kat, these similarities are starting to be slightly creepy and cool. And we'll never know how much alike we are until you post telling everyone the similarities.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
How about this one?
Men are good for making babies with. Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
quote:Men are good for making babies with.
I certainly hope I never know that.
[ February 24, 2004, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: raventh1 ]
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I also really appreciate that men are quite different from women on the whole. There is an idea of balance, expressed by the now-popular black-and-white symbol I can't remember the name of. But there is white and black in equal proportion, and a little of the black is in the white, and a little of the white is in the black. I think that it's a very poignant concept when discussing men and women. Both are necessary, and both are good in their own ways. But an imbalance of either is not good.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
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