Note: This is non-scientific and not intended to be any statment of research or fact, just some ideas I'd like to throw out there.
Anne Kate and were talking on IM last night about how different people view the world very differently in lots of different areas. On a particular subject or trait, two people can be very alike and yet when you shift to another subject or trait, diametrically opposed. I was getting frustrated because I *know* I'm different in a lot of ways and that I can't change it, yet some people don't understand how intrinsic to my nature it is and truly believe I can change something I can't. I was trying very hard to explain this to someone, and I felt rejected when they couldn't understand.
So instead of getting frustrated, we came up with this theory of why they *can't* understand.
On the Bell Curve, there will always be the large group in the middle (+/- 1 standard deviation from the average) Then as you go out to the fringes there is that steep slope (+/- 1.5 to 2 standard devations from average) and finally you have the people at or greater than 3 standard deviations (sigma) from average.
ak and I have always known we were at or greater than the 3 sigma mark, in most of the areas of our lives. Becoming female engineers was just acknowledging that we were already there. We have both gotten over trying to fit in where we are different, and go on with our lives, knowing that they are different from many, but enriching from us.
So why do so many people in the 2-3 sigma range try to fit in, and become depressed when they don't? Not sure. However many of the people are within one sigma on most things and only on the fringes on a few number of traits. Therefore they may have more internal conflict than the totally average person or the totally fringe person. I actually think that it is the people in the 1.5 -2 sigma range, on that very steep slope that have the most difficulties, becuase on any given thing they can jump either direction. It may make them more truly unique than those definitely in the mostly 3 sigma camp.
The people in the 1 sigma range are so normal, that they think to be in the 3 sigma range must be horrid. The people in the 3 sigma range look at the "normal" people and think they are boring. The people on the steep slope are left struggling to fit in with the normal people where they don't quite mesh, but not being able to accept a full 3 sigma status either. Generally I'd say 3 sigma people embrace individuality far more than 1 sigma people do. 3 sigma people can often choose to appear more like 1 sigma people in order to get along with the 1 sigma people better. But it doesn't seem to work the other way nearly as much. And this is where the conflicts arise. When the 1 sigma people tell the 3 sigma people they *can't* possibly be that way, the 3 sigma people get upset because they *know* in their most innermost being that they are different.
To us, the 3 sigma people actually have the advantage, because they can make concessions and appear to blend in if they feel like it. But a 1 sigma person doesn't understand that you are choosing to blend in, to make things smoother, since they aren't capable of comprehending the differences.
What do you think?
AJ
(I am of course excluding criminal behavior from the discussion and just dealing with personality traits and worldview.)
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I've never been satisfied with trying to apply the normal curve to things like attitudes.
I do, however, think it makes for a very strong metaphorical model of how these things might work.
And...
I had this idea for a bar I would open. It'd have to be in a college town, I think, for people to get the joke.
I'd have a bar shaped like a normal curve. I'd call the place "The Standard Deviation."
Ah...it'd probably end up turning into a gay bar.
Not that there's anything wrong with that...
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Because not everyone is 3 sigma in every possible facet of their life.
People need people. Even Slash does, if only for dinner
-Bok
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I said that not every one is 3 sigma in all facets of life. Just some people are mostly 3 sigma and some people are only 3 sigma in a few areas.
I think the people that are only 3 sigma in a few areas are the ones who are more conflicted, because they have more pressure to stay with the norm, since they are in the norm for everything else.
AJ
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Stories have static and dynamic characters.
Static characters don't change during the course of the story. They learn nothing important about themselves, and their opinions about others don't change significantly. They're the people in the middle and at the extremes of your curve. They are often heard to say: "that's just the way I am."
It's much more fun on the slopes.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
And what to do with those outliers... truncate 'em? Heh.
:DB, who's been up and down the Gaussian curve:
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Aren't gaussian surfaces more interesting than curves? AJ
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
AJ
Weren't you the one trying to apply the bell curve idea to LJ's love life while we were in Iowa?
Farmgirl
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Not really that I remember, though it is possible. If I recall, I said my one guiding principle in a relationshp is that it is angst-free. (I'm not talking about important stuff, I'm talking about trival stuff that blows up in angst.)
Different people create, need or can handle different levels of angst in their lives. I didn't know where she fell on that spectrum (so maybe I did mention the bell curve there). I know I fall on the definite angst-free end, and if I had to put up with a lot of it, my relationship would be rapidly over.
AJ
[ February 27, 2004, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I wonder if Belle has ever looked in a mirror and say, "hey, check out that Belle Curve!"
*whistles*
Sorry. So, very, very sorry.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
But don't try to tell me you're really sorry for saying that. Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Belle does have some nice curves! She's one of our Founding Wenches, you know.
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
This is like when the kid wrote violets and reds in his english paper to represent the two sides of the issue rather than say, black and white.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:ak and I have always known we were at or greater than the 3 sigma mark, in most of the areas of our lives.
You are, eh?
I'd be willing to bet more than 50% of people in general would classify themsevles at greater than the 3 sigma mark in weirdness.
In truth, I suspect that when you average out all facets you probably come out just about the same as everyone else. Some people are female engineers, some are radical religious fanatics, some are criminals, some are artists, some are extremely cool, and so on and so on.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I don't think so Tresopax. I think more than 50% here on Hatrack would classify themselves as weird, but that weird is still seen as a perjorative to most people, rather than something to be proud of. There is the grudging respect for the Uber-Geek, like Bill Gates because he is rich, but they don't pretend to understand it. I think Hatrack is an enclave of 2-3 sigma types, for the most part that actually doesn't have a lot of basis in "normalcy" compared to the rest of the population.
And in the entire population of the world, the number of engineers is small to begin with. The number of female engineers far smaller. I want to be respected as an engineer, not as a "girl engineer" for sure (see Celias thread) but there is no way you can actually convince me that a female engineer is normal, when ordinary male ones are weird. (And I'm weird in a gazillion other ways than just engineering.)
AJ
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
People won't call themselves weird because they think it's good to be weird - they will do so because they think they actually ARE weird. People put their own weirdness in the spotlight and forget about their normal qualities - not only because they wish to be unique, but also because they fear being different.
Ask around if you don't believe me. I suspect you'll find most people consider themselves unusual, or outside the norm.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
There is a good point between perception and reality that you bring up. People may percieve themselves to be weirder than they are. I would say the curve has to do with what they actually are, not so much as what the percieve themselves to be.
What about when your obviously already wierd friends tell you that you are clearly weirder than they are and make them feel normal?
(I'm just exploring the idea as I go along I don't have any definitive statmentments and feel free to disagree, Tres has very valid points)
AJ
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
Interesting post, AJ. Fitting in is something I've been thinking about quite a bit lately.
Now, I have to say, having never studied statistics (thank goodness for small favors ), I don't understand all of the statistical language you used. But I do understand about not fitting in and trying to, and knowing deep down that it's a losing battle.
I've never been what anyone ever tried to call normal. I was reading at age three, reading adult books at age seven, and never, ever got along with kids my age in school. For this, I got labeled as "troubled" in junior high and was forced into extracurricular activities in order to try to make me more "normal". What a bore.
Even my mother, who has known me all 47 years of my life, still looks at me sometimes like she's absolutely sure she gave birth to an alien, when I start talking about the things that are interesting to me.
And I have tried and tried to fit in. Knew it was a stupid thing to do, but tried anyway because all anyone ever told me was that it was my obligation and my duty to be more "normal". And I have, in the past few years, found a few people who I do fit in with - mostly because they are almost as NOT "normal" as myself. Although, I have come to understand, they are a lot closer to "normal" than I ever have been - or ever want to be.
But I've recently had a bit of a revelation. And that is that there is no reason why I should worry so much about fitting in. I should, as David Crosby put it so beautifully, "let my freak flag fly". There's nothing wrong with me. For all my peculiarities, I'm at least as law-abiding as most people, more polite and considerate than most people I know out here in the real world, and less inclined to judge others than most people I know. So what if I follow my own muse? At least I have one. And if other people are uncomfortable with that, it's their problem, not mine.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Someone who puts in their 40 hours, goes home, grabs a beer, sits on the couch, day after day, perfectly content with life; where does that person fall on the curve?
Someone who is constantly testing the limits, constantly getting bruised, constantly revising his worldview, and constantly re-inventing himself; where does that person fit?
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
1) is what all the outliers think is normal
2) is what the outliers think they are
The reality of it, I'm not so sure of anymore now that Tresopax has brought it up.
Does normal=boring?
AJ
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
So ask anyone, whom you perceive to be a number 1, and she'll tell you she sees herself as a number 2?
At least she's not boring in her own mind.
Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
I think I went through a time, in grade school, when I wanted very much to be normal. I was probably about 13 or 14 when I decided I liked being me a lot better. I think different people have different levels of need to be normal, too, which may affect how much they adapt themselves to the social situation in which they find themselves. I think mine is very very low. I always seem to have the underlying assumption that the way I do things and the way I am is the right way and the rest of the world is just clueless. <laughs>
For this reason, I don't really fit in with a lot of groups, yet it's not a problem because I'm not really there for the social aspects. Like at work or church, for instance. At work I try to keep things on a purely professional level, though of course I do make real friends at work, when I work with people closely over a long period of time.
At church the same thing could happen, I'm sure, though it hasn't yet. At work my skillset is viewed very positively, whereas at church they do sort of tend to assign me girl-type jobs, and since I do suck at many of those, (like visiting) they tend to think I'm rather lame. I don't mind, of course. I admire the women at church for the way they are. I certainly could never do what they do with such grace. But anyway they are mostly quite kindly toward their lame sister and I think that's sweet. They are sweet ladies, all of them. But I don't look to find my friends there. They don't seem to be able to see me. To see who I am. They only see the rather socially awkward sister who can't cook and is just graceless at many people-skill type tasks at which they excel and which they define women as the doers of. And if the conversation ever goes off in a direction which interests me, by happenstance, their eyes pretty much glaze over and then I realize my mistake.
It does seem like the people who care about fitting in or being normal are those for whom it's even remotely possible that they could. Those of us for whom it's not soon grow wonderfully comfortable with our abby-normal selves and don't value in-fitting very highly.
I find it almost bizarre how many odd traits hatrackers seem to have in common. Things that are part of the many ways I'm weird, like singing out loud in parking decks, going barefooted all the time in public, loving to burn things, riding grocery carts in the parking lot, not watching television, and of course being addicted to reading books.... it astonishes me that so many hatrackers share these traits. I think maybe there really is a gene for jatraqueroism. <laughs> Do you suppose there was some original hatracker-type person who was foremother of us all? I'd like to do mitochondrial DNA studies on all the hatrackers and see when our most recent common female ancestor was. Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Make sure there's a pool table in that bar, Bob!
quote:I find it almost bizarre how many odd traits hatrackers seem to have in common. Things that are part of the many ways I'm weird, like singing out loud in parking decks, going barefooted all the time in public, loving to burn things, riding grocery carts in the parking lot, not watching television, and of course being addicted to reading books....
aka - thank you! no wonder I feel so much more at home here.
I also think, despite our quibbling, that Hatrack provides a safe haven for those of us that feel like we don't really fit in other spots. And even better, encourages us to spread our wings and fly when we are ready to try again, yet allows us a safe retreat . . .
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
), I don't understand all of the statistical language you used. But I do understand about not fitting in and trying to, and knowing deep down that it's a losing battle.![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
did that sound dependent? *shudders*)