She tries to be "a good Christian" and does so the silly way, by following the lead of the self-appointed gaurdian's of piety that rule her church's women's group.
Every new list of do's and don'ts they come out with she follows.
She is also a Tolkien fan. They disapprove. Her son does a scarey Gollum impersonation. This has not been looked on kindly, since such Fantasy fair leads people away from the Good Book, or so they say.
This is the same group that protests Harry Potter, Video Games on Principle, and Dancing in general.
I'd like to offer her a hand, by showing how Tolkien was a great Christian man and his works are filled with biblical allegory.
Are they?
What are they?
Is Frodo a Christ figure?
Is Aragorn and Denethor a replay of David and Saul?
Opinions?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I don't know about the larger picture, but the correlation between Galadriel's Temptation and John 3:30 struck me the other day.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Short answer: Tolkien was devoutly Roman Catholic (which may not reassure your sister-in-law's busybodies).
Lord of the Rings is not intentionally allegorical in the same way that The Chronicles of Narnia are. It is, however, based on a very orthodox Christian worldview. His published statement is that it takes place after the Fall and before the Incarnation.
I'll look for some good sources to link later. But methinks none of this will help your sister-in-law. If I know the type, they'll probably say, "Even the Devil can quote scripture for his own purpose" and dismiss any rational arguments.
I don't suppose they'd be receptive to the fact that humans were given creative talent and not to use it is wasteful? There's at leas one parable to that effect, I know.
Dagonee *Who has dealt with more than a few in his day.
Edit: Plus, what Jon Boy said.
[ March 08, 2004, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
Wasn't he also pretty buddy-buddy with CS Lewis?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I agree with Dagonee, there may be nothing you can say or do that will shake their convictions that all fantasy is evil no matter the faith of the author.
I am curious though, how do they feel about The Chronicles of Narnia?
Posted by HRE (Member # 6263) on :
I would tell the sister to take another look at the new crowd.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Tolkien was VERY buddy-buddy with C. S. Lewis.
Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
Thanks, Jon Boy.
I know this is not a direct correlation, but I can't imagine Lewis being that close to someone who did not share his religious beliefs.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Actually, Tolkien was instrumental in Lewis's ultimate conversion from atheism to Christianity. He wasn't there for the final epiphany, but he did change the way Lewis thought about myths, paganism, and their relationship to ultimate reality. It's alluded to in Surprised by Joy.
Dagonee
[ March 08, 2004, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Dag, I have heard that also. So not only was Tolkien a Christian, he was a missionary! Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Useful info all, but I won't be happy until our expert chimes in. Belle?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
You know, most of the material I linked to comes straight from letters written by Tolkien himself. I kind of like to think that if anyone's the expert on Tolkien's Christian beliefs, it's Tolkien.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
There are enough questions on "The other side" about whether OSC is really Christian/LDS. I have to say, I was a bit surprised when I learned he had been asked to script a pageant for the church (this was maybe 15 years ago?). It's kind of funny to me now, but I really did't believe he could be a "good Mormon" back then.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
If anyone's interested in Tolkien's views on myth as a revelation of higher truths, read his essay "On Fairy Stories." It's published in a book with "Farmer Giles of Ham," which is a hilarious story, and "Leaf by Niggle," which is directly allegorical and very moving. However, since one of the things it's being an allegory to is purgatory, this may or may not go over well with the SIL's friends.
The other source to read is the opening book of the the Silmarillion, which I interpreted as Tolkien's effort to reconcile the Judeo-Christian Creation stories with paganism. It's quite beautiful and goes a long way toward hinting at why free will was so important to God.
I've also wondered if there's a particular reason that both Tolkien and Lewis use singing in their versions of the Creation. Haven't seen any good analysis on what would have led them both to that device. Other than conversations over beer in an Oxford pub.
Dagonee
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
IIRC, in one of the EE DVDs someone said Treebeard was based on C.S. Lewis, who had a booming voice. Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
Wanna know what's funny? Tolkien told Lewis that the Narnia series was crap. Lewis almost didn't publish them.
Edit: and I agree with Dagonee (heheh...I rhymed). While the allegorical nature of LotR can be dismissed or debated on end, the fact of the matter is that in writing LotR Tolkien decided not to bury his talents.
[ March 08, 2004, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: sarcasticmuppet ]
Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
There's some nice stuff on Tolkien and Lewis on the TTT:EE.
They were very close and, though I haven't seen it elswhere, I'm convinced that Elwin Ransom (the hero of Lewis' "Space Trilogy") is a thinly disguised Tolkien. After all, how many Philologists was Lewis really close to?
I have suggested reading God in the Dock elsewhere, but it's useful here as many of the first chapter essays deal with precisely Lewis' outlook on this subject. As someone posted earlier, Tolkien was heavily influential on Lewis here, as was my boy, Chesterton.
Posted by BrianM (Member # 5918) on :
To reassure your friend, the world of Tolkien is very Christian. There is one god called Eru, or Iluvatar, he had spirit offspring that came from his thought, one of which was evil and turned against him.
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
Yeah, Tolkien's world is very reminiscent of the Bible's. In fact, my mom and dad stopped reading reading Silmarillion because the parallels between it and the book of Genesis creeped them out.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
TAK, Lewis was a professor of English at Oxford. I wouldn't be surprised if he ran into a few philologists. That's not to say, of course, that Ransom couldn't have been Tolkien.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I'm convinced that Elwin Ransom (the hero of Lewis' "Space Trilogy") is a thinly disguised Tolkien.
I've read something that explicitly acknowledges that Lewis based Ransom on Tolkien, can't remember where. I don't think it was a direct quote from Lewis, which means it may not be dispositive. I'll try to dig it up.
In Surprised by Joy, Lewis said Tolkien helped him overcome two prejudices. The first, from boyhood, was "Never trust a papist." The second, from college, was "Never trust a philologist."
Dagonee
Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
Ran into a few, yes... but Lewis is a (minor) character in these stories and tells them from the perspective of one who is a very close, trusted, inner circle member... it's implied that he is the closest friend Ransom, who entrusts Lewis to look after his worldly affairs if he doesn't return, has.
How many philologists was Lewis *that* close to?
[ March 08, 2004, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: T. Analog Kid ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
There is a book titled "Finding God in the Lord of the Rings" that can be found in virtually every Christian bookstore. Here, I'll even link to it.
Lewis did indeed credit Tolkien with helping him "see the light" as it were. Tolkien vehemently denied the novel was allegory, but his Christian worldview permeates the work.
I don't consider Frodo a Christ figure myself, I think he is supposed to represent us, (if you play along with allegory) Even though he was good hearted, true, and gave his absolute best effort, he was unable to resist evil in the end. He represents man's fallen nature.
Your sister is in a quandary, I doubt any information will convince this crowd.
Are the Chronicles of Narnia allowed? Because that's fantasy too, and I can't imagine any church not allowing it's members to read Narnia.
Posted by dangermom (Member # 1676) on :
Also, I understand that Tolkien and Lewis did part ways near the end, and mainly because of differences in their beliefs. However, I do not know much about it.
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
That is interesting, really. But I think most of the Tolkein stuff is in themes, not allegory.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
This goes right along with my mom cutting off the horns of my unicorns....
Fantasy WILL lead you away from God and the Bible. Because religious zealots will hammer into you that it is bad, you must either waste time showing how it can actually bring you closer to God or get yourself away from the group. At any rate, you'll start thinking for yourself.
When my religious group started wanting me to report on my sins in my prayer group, and I wasn't repentant about reading fantasy and such, they started to shun me. Which I really didn't mind, because we started to have less and less in common.
It is sad, really, because some of my most inspirational moments that made me believe maybe God was Real and Important after all have come from Fantasy literature. But I couldn't share it with anybody... Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
Jenny, I am genuinely sorry you had to put up with that and that those people have actually hindered your ability to enjoy and draw faith from one of the most beautiful and heartening myths (and I don't mean "untruths" by that) in human history.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
T. Analog: Wasn't it Lewis who called Christianity the "Only true Myth"?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:It is sad, really, because some of my most inspirational moments that made me believe maybe God was Real and Important after all have come from Fantasy literature. But I couldn't share it with anybody...
Well thank goodness you found Hatrack.
You would definitely appreciate both Tolkien's "On Fairy Stories" I mentioned above and Lewis's Surprised by Joy.
Dagonee
Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
Taalcon,
I don't think he used those words, but he did write an essay titled "Myth Became Fact" exploring the idea that Christianity was both the ultimate myth and factually true.
Posted by dangermom (Member # 1676) on :
I just read that yesterday! (The Lewis essay on myth, that is)
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
If anyone is a Christ figure, it's Gandalf, but even that is sketchy.
Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
Dangermom! haven't seen you in a while (but that's probably my fault)... always liked your handle-- it reminds me of "Dangermouse."
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Jenny (and anyone else) – you might also like Madeleine L’Engle’s book The Rock That is Higher: Story as Truth
Jenny, fantasy will NOT lead you away from God and the Bible unless you associate those two inextricably with the kind of literal-minded, close-minded <ruder words deleted> groups that were apparently your main experience of religion growing up. I’m sorry. Posted by dangermom (Member # 1676) on :
No, T., I do more lurking than posting here. It's nice to know someone remembers me! My own theme song, however, is based on the Mighty Mouse song: "Heeeeere I come to save the daaaay, DaaaangerMom is on the waaaay!" That's probably because I don't know the Dangermouse song. Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I agree, L'Engle and Lewis are lovely. I am not sure what to call myself religiously, but I don't run away from connecting with the Divine. I take beauty wherever I find it.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:If anyone is a Christ figure, it's Gandalf, but even that is sketchy.
Gandalf was certainly not intended to be a Christ figure, although some have made him out to be.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Jenny I can sympathize. I actually got guilted into cutting the horn of my pretty pony unicorn MYSELF. I felt "convicted" about it. (I kicked myself as soon as I did it though!)
My mother in a striking oxymoronic way, loves childrens story books but hates fantasy. Fantastic tales are ok (think Stephen Kellog and Pinkerton the Great Dane) but magical tales aren't. (Though she mellowed in her later years over the Magic School Bus because they were educational.) She *KNEW* that the Chronicles of Narnia were considered good children's literature whether religous or not, but she couldn't stand them. Fortunately we had a guy living with us for a while who had a love of books in common with my parents. He read me the Chronicles of Narnia aloud and I still remember it fondly. My mother was happy that he was reading them to me so she didn't feel obligated to. He did more for my actual "literature" education than anyone else and basically taught me how to do literary analysis by asking me questions as we went along. I picked up Tolkein completely on my own, and my mother still doesn't understand why I like fantasy. The series that got me in the most trouble, that I checked out from the library and still haven't read the end of is the Song of the Lioness series by Tamora Pierce that OSC reviewed a while back. It is a set I want to buy if possible. The reason why I got in horrid trouble over it is because it says on the fly leaf that Ms. Pierce is a practicing witch. Of course that went over like a ton of bricks...
AJ
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
BannaOJ - you, too? I think we should mourn our Unicorn horns together.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
In our house, Breyer horses were approved over pretty ponies. Which was cool because I liked them too since they were realistic though pretty ponies were a lot cheaper so people gave me more of them...
A unicorn was barely acceptable, and I only had one Moondancer, who later along with baby Moondancer got their horns removed. Pegasus weren't alowed. Don't know why horns were better than wings... beats me!
AJ
[ March 10, 2004, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Horns could only hurt someone - wings might let you escape? Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
You know, all this stuff makes me think about how one of the most important things we have to learn is how to tell good from evil. And it's every bit as bad (maybe even worse) to decide that something good is evil, as it is to decide something evil is good. Either mistake lessens joy and increases sorrow. Either is ignorance and therefore sin.
<mourns for the truncated horns of innocent unicorns>
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
There's a website - I found it once when trying to look up why unicorns were evil - that has huge lists of things to keep away from if you want to keep pure.
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![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
However, I do not know much about it.
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