quote:

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but taught us about our own true sexuality

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quote:

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The study on Tuesday of a nationally representative sample of about 15,000 youths aged 12 to 18 found that 88 percent of teenagers who pledged to remain virgins until they are married ended up having sex before marriage.

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quote:

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The report stated that nearly half of all STD cases occur among young adults age 15 to 24, and nearly half of new HIV infections occur in that age group.

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quote:

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The report stated that nearly half of U.S. high school students have sex and about 14 percent of them have had four or more partners. It also claimed that almost all young people will have had sex by the age of 25, which makes up a quarter of the country's sexually active population.

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Scary.

[ March 10, 2004, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: Nato ]
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I think that sex/health education is a good thing. As a parent, I would be very upset if they started teaching my kids that sex is Ok and not a sin.
 

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Posted by fiazko (Member # 5812) on :
 
This is one area that I'm not so adamant about parents taking responsibility. Not that they shouldn't, but there are too many situations in which kids don't get the information they should have from their parents.

Do I think sex ed should start in middle school? Yes. Kids who are approaching puberty need to know what's going on with their bodies, what sex is, and the repercussions of having sex. "Skipped Parts" is a good example of what can happen when sexual discovery is left up to the kids.

I think it's important for parents to know that their kids are learning sex ed in school. I'm not sure I agree with the permission slip idea unless parents who say "no" accept the responsibility to educate their children themselves.

Basically, I think that kids need to learn from someone more responsible than TV or their peers, whether it be parents, school, or a combination of the two.
 

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Posted by Nato (Member # 1448) on :
 
I think a neutral attitude toward sex on the teacher's part would be best. I also think that a lot of these STD cases come from kids who are too scared to be caught with condoms. They don't stop having sex, they just do it unprotected. My parents would probably have quite a fit if I were caught with a condom in my wallet. I don't think that is productive.

Most kids seem like they will have sex, no matter what their parents think of it, so I think they should at least not be afraid to have protection so they don't hurt themselves as much as possible. I think most people would agree that if somebody is going to be having premarital sex, it is better that they use a condom.
 

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Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
 
Regardless of your political leanings, I believe you can all agree that we need to make all teenagers watch a 10.5 hour LOTR-scale video showing nothing but puss-filled, AIDS-patient-deathbed, weiner-falling-off type of images.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
I hope you meant "pus-filled," vwiggin.

Like several people have said, not every parent is going to teach their children about sex, and not all of those who do are going to do it well. I think sex education in schools is very important, but I think the teacher's opinion needs to stay out of it. Just the facts.
 

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Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
 


I could edit that, but I won't.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
There is no way I could have watched a movie like that in high school. In fact, there is no way I could watch a movie like that today. I'm far too squemish. I would probably pass out if somebody *forced* me to watch it.

I remember a 1-hour film that we had to watch in '90 or '91 that described AIDS, how you can get it, and its effects. It made me feel so sick I could barely stand up afterwards.
 

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Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
 
Syn:

quote:

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It's better to teach sex like it's perfectly normal, naturally not a thing wrong with it and that it's not sinful, bad or evil...

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I hope you're suggesting that the teacher should take a neutral position on the morality of sex. Because if you're saying that a teacher should explicitly say that sex is not sinful, then you're dead wrong. The government and the educational establishment have no authority to attempt to rule on issues of sin and morality. That aspect of it really should be left up to the children's parents, no matter what.

Now, the informational side of sex (what goes where, why, and what can go wrong) is useful information for anybody, regardless of their religious background. Permission slips are still a good idea, but if you're teaching it at all, I suspect that there will be at least some trickle-down knowledge reaching the kids who opt out.

What I would like to see stressed much more is the ethical side of sex. Without bringing religion into it, I think it is possible to convey to kids that if all you are interested in is sex, you are demeaning and probably emotionally harming the person you are with. That treating yourself like a sex object is a really great route into serious shame and self-worth problems. That sex is more responsible and most rewarding when practiced within long-term committed relaitonships. That cheating and having illegitimate kids are harmful to your mate, your offspring, and to society as a whole. Etcetera.
 

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Posted by cochick (Member # 6167) on :
 
I agree with what appears to be the general consensus of the thread - Sex Education is not a bad thing if done properly and without bias from the teacher.

Fiasko also made a good point too - parents need to know what is being taught. I think this should be done more thoroughly with parents receiving details of exactly what is taught, how and when. This ensures that parents who want to discuss it with their children first can and if they know whats going on they're more prepared to answer questions if they arise.

I think its a good idea to teach sex ed. to boys and girls seperately. Its too embarrassing a subject for many kids to feel they can discuss or ask any questions about with members of the opposite sex in the room.

What age is sex ed. taught in schools in the US. When I was at school many years ago we were taught about periods etc. when we were 12ish and then sex ed. at about 14. Now this was over 20 years ago so I'm sure Sex Ed. is probably taught at 12ish now.
 

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Posted by HRE (Member # 6263) on :
 
If you must, think of it as damage control.

Coming from a student, realize that no amount of movies, scares, or anything of the like are going to stop students from having sex.

Trust me. It's impossible.

So, you examine it, and decide that since they will always have sex, you can teach them how to do it safely and right. There should be no "Oh my god, which [Edited because I fear moderators]??"

Condoms should be supplied for students, and perhaps a discount pass for STD testing, to encourage them to get it.
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
I am cynical about condom distribution because once a person has embarked on the "if it feels good, do it" philosophy, then they would probably rather not use one. I hope these are in the minority.

I really do hope that the majority of teens want to have a caring relationship with a partner.
 

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Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
 
HRE, while you're right that movies and scares are ineffective, and you're also right that it's impossible to ensure that no kid will ever have underage sex, you are wrong if you're asserting that adults can have no impact on the way their children choose to behave.

It isn't a lost cause. Among subcultures in the US where premarital sex still carries a healthy social stigma, kids don't do it near as often as they do outside of those subcultures. If there is anything in the world that makes a kid think twice, it's the fear of shame. Fear of disease won't do it. Fear of pregnancy won't do it. But the powerful desire that a young person has to belong to a community and live up to expectations of people he admires ... that can really work.

The problem that you've illustrated is the fact that we expect nothing of value from our youth. Through the rules, the media, and the everyday behavior of our culture, we reiterate again and again that we expect them to be nothing more than gigantic screwups. And then, not surprisingly, they live up precisely to our expectations.

The answer is not to simply give in to despair, as you advocate. On the contrary, we need to build back up up our society's ability to regulate the behavior of its members. Lately, it seems that we're all about tearing down powerful social standards and mores, and replacing them with flimsy legal replacements. The result is not so much increased freedom, but increased incidence of the consequences of stupid choices.

Hm. Here's the point I'm making. Right now, America, on the whole, believes that an individual should be able to do whatever he wants, and that government or society should protect him from consequences so that his choices become more free.

In my estimation, all that does is make morality meaningless to most people, promotes self-centered behavior, and fails to equip anyone to handle the responsibility of making real choices and living with consequences.

The America I wish I lived in would promote a strong ideal of honor, responsibility, and shame for making bad choices. Shame may be unpleasant, but it is not a bad thing. It is an extremely powerful corrective force, both in a individual's life, and in the life of a community. The more shameless we become, the less capable we are of acting like responsible adults. Childish shamelessness naturally ends at puberty, but our society has gone to great lengths to extend it beyond adolescence, far into adulthood.

So, my real response to you is that your attitude ("kids are gonna have sex, so get used to it") is a big part of the problem. We need to stop thinking that way, and start realizing the value of high expectations.
 

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Posted by HRE (Member # 6263) on :
 
I am speechless...
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
If it is true that the kids have no shame, then they should feel comfortable buying the condoms themselves.

Would you want even one dollar of your tax money to go toward a social agenda you disagree with? (I dunno, I always opt out of the Presidential election campaign fund on my taxes. I know that since it doesn't raise or lower my taxes, it must not matter.)
 

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Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
 
Heh heh. Sorry about that, HRE I'm sure you weren't really after that kind of response. I just get really annoyed when I'm told that "your teenagers are going to have premature sex, get used to it" because dammit, people said that when I was a teen, but I didn't do it, and I know why I didn't do it, and I don't think I'm all that weird and unique. I just had the advantage of belonging to a family and a culture that strongly values chastity. So even when my pubescent horniness overcame my personal judgment, it never overcame my desire to remain an upstanding member of my community.

I believe that there are a lot of young guys out there who would behave just as I did if they had a reason to. But no one gives them any.
 

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Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
 
I think there should be comprehensive sex ed, that includes both abstinence and assertiveness training ( teaching girls to say no, and where to kick a guy if he doesn't respect that) and how to prevent STD's and pregnancy. Parents should be informed and have an opt out choice- I think many of the parents who would opt out do plan to touch on sex, even if they may approach in unrealisticly.
 

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Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
 
romanylass, if you do assertiveness training, be sure to also teach boys what to do when girls come onto them, and teach girls how to handle their OWN horniness. The assumption that the situation will always be "horny boy trying to get it on with nervous girl", we're going to miss half the situations that these kids end up in ...
 

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Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
 
When my little sister started going to kindergarten, I remember my mother was shocked to realize that they were reading the kids a book about sex. The whole process was being described in great detail to five-year-old children.

I don't think any kid needs to even know what sex is at that age. When I was that age, it didn't even occur to me to wonder. I somehow doubt that I was an exception to the rule, and that most kids start wondering about sex at kindergarten age. When you're five, you don't need to learn about pregnancy and contraception and abstinence. I find it shocking that kids are being made aware of these things way before they would be naturally curious. When I see seven and eight-year-old girls trying to dress up sexy, I think there's a problem. But that's just my opinion. I was perfectly happy not even being faintly curious about sex till I was twelve. Let them have their innocence.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Most of my sex ed took place in a college level biology class. We did frog sex before human sex etc..

I think it can be taught biologically with no moral weight applied at all. In fact I think everyone would be better off taking a Human Biology course in high school that included the sexual reproductive system. The lack of knowledge on other stuff that many people have about their own body is staggering.

AJ
 

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Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
 
Speaking as a none virgin 16 year old, I can say that sex e.d. is important. I mean it didn’t do anything for me, but it teaches those individuals that otherwise wouldn't use common sense. The main problem with our sex ed is that they teach abstinence as the only way. I can safely say that well over half of teens are not virgins by the end of high school. I believe that the schools need to remain neutral on the morality of sex but they should at least explain how a condom works, because condoms are 99.9% effective if used correctly. If teens aren't told how to use them, odds are they won't use them, or won't use them correctly. Teens also need to be taught how to think through their decision to have sex. They need to learn to make a conscience decision about whether to have sex or not. I know that I have no regrets for having sex in the past; I don't regret it because I used a condom and I used one because I knew how to use it. I know that some of you are thinking less of me right now, and all I have to say to you people is, when you catch your kids having sex, I bet you'll wish they were as open about it as I am.
 

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Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
 
One thing I found interesting is that the Human Rights Watch lists teaching abstinence-only sex ed as a human rights abuse. We're denying kids access to /knowledge of things that can prevent the spread of AIDS.

I guess the merits of this are debatable, but it's an interesting idea...
 

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Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
 
I'm tired of that crap about abstinince being the only 100% effective way to prevent pregnancy. I mean just look at Mary!
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
While I agree with Geoff that shame is a powerful corrective, the problem we have in this society is that shame is too often harnessed as a whip by people who seek to wield society's power. (We even see it today; in a society in which being a bigot is shameful, calling someone a bigot is a powerful thing.)

This leads to situations like the Magdalene laundries, back-alley abortions, and one-year "boarding schools" for girls with wealthy parents.

I'm not sure where -- or how -- we as a society can draw the line. Is it okay to refuse to rent an apartment to an unwed mother? Is it okay to walk up to an unwed mother you know only slightly and call her a harlot? What if you just tell her that you strongly disapprove of her choice, and expect her to deal with the consequences on her own?

At what point does the EXPRESSION of that shame become worthy of shame?
 

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Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
 
I have to agree with Geoff (A Rat Named Dog) on many points in his argument, but most specifically with teaching young men how to deal with aggressive young women (and how to teach young women self-control). I work with young people, and one of my good friends is having a bit of a crisis in this area (he is a young man). Women have strong sex drives, too!



I am in the camp of "teach them about STDs and teach them how to put a condom on". Young people, while hormone-crazed (and crazed in general, haha), can understand consequences if they are taught. I admit to many mistakes as a hormonal young person. Many, many mistakes. I think I would have made more mistakes had I not had a good sex-ed program (at nine: reproductive systems, and in tenth grade: sexual consequences) and a communicative family.

I support opt-outs for parents who want to approach sexual issues with their children without the help of the school district. IIRC, permission slips are a requirement of law in these matters, anyway.

I of course believe that abstinence is the only way to prevent STDs and pregnancy (Mary, Mother of God, notwithstanding), but I also know that for some teens, this is not going to happen.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I don't think shame will do much good. People have to learn to do the right thing when it comes to sex not because they'll get punished or have people call them names but because it's the right thing.
Because it's responsible.
In order to do that, you got to turn all of modern culture upside down. Right now you get something like someone baking a fresh batch of cookies, putting milk in the fridge, setting them in an open cookie jar and saying, don't eat the cookies until this or that time...
Does no good. They'll eat them anyway, except for those for whom the opportunity to fool around doesn't present itself, or the types that have little interest.
How many kids out there have no interest about sex but pretend to because they are afraid to be thought of as weird?
Second graders now harp on crushes.
It's because the US has a split personality when it comes to sex. Don't talk about it, don't teach it, but show a bunch of blurred half naked women and men all over primetime television.
It's true that we need to learn to respect sex as something sacred and for that all of society has to work together.
But shame in some cases just makes it worse.
 

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Posted by HRE (Member # 6263) on :
 
Dog Named Rat:

That is not what I meant. I'm a teenager, and I have no desire to go have sex, or rather, I can control that desire.

But many teenagers are not the same, and no measure of lectures can kill that desire or that curiosity.
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
At my old high school, all the year 11s go on a "leadership" camp.

You go out to the bush, sleep in bunk beds, and hear motivational speakers. Then one night they tell you it's movie night.

They're lying.

You all get ushered into the hall - and teachers barricade the door. Then someone from a sexual health clinics shows lots and lots of slides of various STIs.

Lots of pus.

I don't think a single girl in my class would even still ever consider having unprotected sex: those are the kinds of images that stick with you.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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Does no good. They'll eat them anyway, except for those for whom the opportunity to fool around doesn't present itself, or the types that have little interest.

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I've got to disagree. I did not lack for opportunity or desire, but I did not have sex as a teen. I agree with Dog. We do teens a big disservice if we just assume that they are not capable of controlling themselves. They can. It will never be 100%, but but they can.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I didn't either, (still haven't )but I was a strange kid who didn't really get interested in all that until I was twenty.
All kids are different.
Some respond well to their respective church telling them not to do it. Some listen to their parents' warnings. Others will say, it won't happen to me and they'll do it anyway.
Some are so firm in their convictions until some convincing person comes along all seductive and perfect, and next thing you know...
It varies from person to person. The people who WILL stray need resources. The people who won't should be applauded and encorauged.
 

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Posted by Jill (Member # 3376) on :
 
The thing is, there's a lot of uninformed teenagers out there. One of my mother's friends got pregnant at age sixteen, and she couldn't figure out why. She had no idea that sex had anything to do with pregnancy.
There's also a lot of rumors out there-- "you can't get pregnant the first time," "oral sex can't give you AIDS," etc. If teenagers don't get information from parents/teachers, they'll get it from their friends.
 

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Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :
 
Ed says no, they're too young.

[ March 12, 2004, 02:46 AM: Message edited by: Slash the Berzerker ]
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Hah! Beat ya to it.
 

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Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
 

quote:

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I've got to disagree. I did not lack for opportunity or desire, but I did not have sex as a teen. I agree with Dog. We do teens a big disservice if we just assume that they are not capable of controlling themselves. They can. It will never be 100%, but but they can.

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I am in the same boat, but I chose to abstain because I firmly believed that sex led to babies and babies led to loss of freedom, choices and oportunities. For me,sex wasn't a moral issue but a life path issue.

Because this thinking was so powerful for me, I believe this is an excellent approach to take with teens. I appreciate the ads that show the teen dad being stuck at home while his friends go out; or the teen mom who is struggling to get by on her own or miserable because she married the guy who got her pregnant rather than waiting for prince charming. I'd like to see this approach used more often.
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
As a parent of three teenagers, I say YES - we need to keep sex ed.

Sex was not discussed at all in MY upbringing, and my lack of knowledge did hurt me when I became sexually active. I barely even knew about "female cycles" before I started my own period.

My kids have gone through Sex Ed in school - both middle school and high school. They used an abstinence-based curriculum (showing all the known consequences from choosing to have sex outside of marriage) but they also give information on different types of birth control.

I think making the kids sit down and BE an audience for this is necessary. It is hard, at this age, to get them to sit down and have this discussion with parents -- and some parents are unwilling to do it.

For my kids -- it actually opened communication between us on this subject (although I have tried to educate them all the way through school) -- when my daughter came home, I could ask her what they covered in that class on that day, and then we would discuss it more.

So I think it takes both -- Sex ed at the school level, and follow-up at the parent level (to interject any particular relationship to religious beliefs of the family).

Farmgirl

[ March 12, 2004, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Farmgirl ]
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
You can't have a complete basic understanding of biology unless you understand reproduction. Therefore, since we expect kids to learn biology, sex ed should be taught.

As for the morality of sex, I don't see why schools need to go one way or another about it. Just give them the facts.
 

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Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
 
If I had my way, sex ed would start out very young. There is no reason I can think of that the natural and readily observable act of mating in the animal kingdom shouldn't be addressed. Every class that has pets asks "What are they doing?" when the male starts riding the female! And nearly all young children want to know about where babies come from. You don't have to go into gory detail, but it makes sense to let children know what sexual reproduction is.

Unfortunately, kids are playacting sexual things in elementary school. You come across stories of kids copping feels when they are in single-digit ages. Sometimes you observe it! By middle school, most students know enough about sex to figure out how to do it if they haven't already become sexually active.

They need frank information, not beating-around-the-bush. And they need guidance, desperately. Many of them can't talk to their parents, for a variety of reasons. And teachers are too scared to talk about it. I try to be honest, if the topic gets close (in second grade it doesn't happen, but in 5th on up, it does). I let kids know that they need to make smart decisions, because what they choose to do with their bodies now affects the rest of their lives. I don't tell them what they should or shouldn't do, but I often join a conversation with the question, "Is that wise, do you think?" "Why would he/she/you do that?" or "What else could you do?"
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
Good points, Jenny. They should at least admit that sex is natural and that it's really something you can't understand from spending an evening watching lame television shows...
Or worse... porn...
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
Jenny, you are a VERY good teacher. Personally, that's precisely how I think you should handle those situations.

As a parent, I would prefer my son not have sex ed in school, largely because I would prefer to do it myself. Sex ed started very young with him, and hasn't stopped, and won't stop until he's out on his own. I'm now to the point where *I* have to get some education, so I can be an effective educator. So I have some books, and Christian and I are working through them together. It is uncomfortable sometimes, but I wouldn't change it for all the world -- I am learning so much about my son in the process, and discovering what a truly interesting person he is. I knew that before, but he still surprises me all the time.

I know that not all parents do this, and so I think there's a place for sex ed...it's a part of grown-up life, and so shouldn't be ignored from school curriculum. I'd like to see it, however, presented much like AJ suggests. And I really think it needs to be progressive, all the way through schooling, so that you don't "start" when the kids are already in the early hormonal stages. But I also think that parents should be given the option to opt their kids out of that education and be given free and open viewing of what will be presented.
 

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Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
 
By all means! There's really nothing to hide when it comes to sex ed, anymore than there is something to hide in the math curriculum. And parents could opt out, or better yet, come to the class with their kids!
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
By the same token, I think that financial education should be far more prominent in school curriculum. I was so clueless when I got out of HS....it would have been great to have money management as part of school all the way from kindergarten on up.
 

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Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
 
No kidding! Last year, I ran a mini-economy in my G/T classroom, and it was amazing. The kids learned so much, and their little economy worked much the same as our own, with all the goods and bads. It was interesting, though, to see the class evolving just a bit more compassion and socialism than our current economy. They took care of the lazier and less well-off students, but they also learned how to keep themselves from getting burned. The goal seemed to be "How can we get what we want AND make sure everyone is still having fun?"
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
Wow, that's cool, Jenny! That would have been really interesting to watch.

I discovered this weekend that you have to be 15 to sign checks. *grumble* I wanted Christian to open a checking account so he could start paying some bills. He likes to subscribe to things, and thus far, we've written out the checks, then he pays us. I wanted to cut us out of the middle, so he could start learning how to balance a checkbook, manage his money, etc. Instead, to accomplish the same thing, he'll have to buy money orders every time. Still a learning experience, but not quite what I was planning.
 

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Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 
My friend's wife is a teacher. A few days ago, three of her students, two boys and a girl, were 3 hours late to class. They were at the girl's house. Her parents weren't home. They were "having fun". She teaches 5th grade. That makes the kids, what? 10? 11?
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I'm in favor of Sex Ed. being taught in the schools provided, as many have already said, it is taught factually and without bias, and that parents may opt out. I have no idea what age is appropriate though, probably different levels of depth for different ages.

On Financial Education, I remember taking an Economics course in High School that had a powerful influence on me. They gave us a hypothetical situation where we were assigned a minimum wage or near minimum wage job. Then, with the money we took home from that job, we had to research how much an apartment would cost, transportation, and food. We actually had to make out a week's meal schedule. Sure sobered me up about money!

We also got to experiment with the stock market, choosing a stock, hypothetically purchasing some, and watching it for the next few weeks.

I don't know how common these sorts of activities are, but it really had a good effect on me.
 

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Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
I'd never let my kids have sex with teens.

And please stop calling me Ed.

(Damn! Rivka beat me to it, sort of)

[Edited to say "Damn! Rivka beat me to it, sort of"]

[ March 12, 2004, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: ssywak ]
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
jeniwren - what I did with my teen was to open up a banking account for him that provided a check card. My name's on it, mainly to make direct-depositing his allowance easier.

This has several advantages. He has the account and the checkbook-balancing, he has checks if he needs them, he doesn't have cash in his pocket begging to be spent, and he can order stuff online without going through me.

And he has a card that gives him the convenience of a credit card but won't let him spend more than he actually has. I'm not a fan of credit cards at all and now that he's of age he gets more offers in the mail than we do. Best to get him used to living within his means now.
 

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Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
 
Good point, Rat/Dog
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
Chris, what age did you start that with him? I hadn't thought to get Christian a cash card. I'd already planned to be on the account...I figured that was a necessity.

How is it working out with your teen? How much involvement do you have in helping him manage his account?
 

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Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
I just wonder what comes after Sex Ed. Sex Training?
 

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Posted by want2write (Member # 6253) on :
 
I got a classmate who is currently six or seven months pregnant.

My foreign language teacher (he is, speaks, and teaches Chinese) wouldn't have allowed his daughter to have sex eduacation, but he's divorced and lost a child custody to his ex-wife. (I'll tell you about his family life later) Also, he's against homosexuals (and homosexuality) for either religious, Biblical, or some reasons. Plus, he's conservative known as old-fashioned, esp. to life.

TV is not that bad! Shows aren't that bad, unless there's only one or zero point of view, probably as in anti- or pro-. For example, Maude writers made a (sorta) pro-abortion episode. No offense, but i can't stand any more judgements against or for tv.

[ March 12, 2004, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: want2write ]
 

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Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
 
I believe in sex ed, and think it needs to go further and start earlier. I learned most of my "sex education" from teen magazines and on my own.

My mother tried to tell me as a highschool senior, when I had my first crush, that kissing boys would give you AIDS. That was the only sex discussion I ever had with her. I was flabbergasted and didn't even know what to say to her.

My best friend called me in college in tears because she had her first sexual encounter. Her boyfriend had touched her through her panties and then touched himself and then touched her again. She was hysterical and was going to get the morning after pill and vowed never to let anyone near her again. This is not the kind of abstinance we want to promote.

You can have knowledge while also teaching responsibility and respect and even still make the decision not to have sex until marriage. It will make waiting a positive experience and not something driven by fear.
 

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Posted by HRE (Member # 6263) on :
 
I recently got a Debit Card for all the reasons Chris mentioned. Mostly, I realized that if I had one dollar in my pocket, I could be happy with that. But if I had twenty dollars in my pocket, I would spend the whole thing (not just the same $1). So, it gets rid of the loose cash, and if I want to buy something expensive, I'm not carrying that much cash around.

I also have it set up so that at the end of every month, half of my debit account goes into a savings account, without any action on my part.
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
It was after he turned 18, so the underage thing wasn't an issue, although that wasn't why we waited. Best would be to talk to someone at your bank and see what the options are.

I greatly prefer check cards, for him and for me. You also don't have to worry (as much) if he loses it
 

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Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
 
I would like to add my two cents.

I am staying away from the direct sex-ed discussion because I don't think I have much to add to what has already been posted.

However, because we live in an entertainment society*, I think schools should aggressively teach advertising techniques and tricks.

I include education on who finances pop artists and who are the actual creators of music, movies, et cetera, and what formulas they follow to the standard commercial advertisement found on television.

If students understand the psychological games in the advertisement industry and who finances them, I think their behavior will less likely be manipulated, and they will be trained to think critically.

I remember one psychology class where they did a superficial presentation on the above ideas, and I was fascinated and forever changed in a more positive way. I never knew to what extent sprite and mtv have cultural influence!

Since *sex* sells so much, I think an aggressive education in advertisement influence will contribute a lot to sex education--albeit in a round about way. As it is now tho, we get “Channel One” brought to our students by Snickers and the current PG-13 movies.

* I am speaking as an American. Are other countries in an entertainment culture to the extent we are?
 

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Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
 
You know what I really wish I had had as a child? I wish there had been good novels to read that showed realistic sex in complete detail. Maybe stories of people who got pregnant very young, and got married and then divorced, as one of my high school acquaintences did, or had abortions or got STDs, as others did. Maybe even some who had to grow up too fast, but managed it, and lived happily ever after. It's sort of a shame that the only depictions of sex in our society are really stupid and unrealistic pornography. Why do serious novels have to leave that out?

Reference books can teach you the dry facts, but how can you understand what they mean without true stories?

I got no information from my parents, but they didn't censor what I read, so I had technical books about biology and so on, with which to combat my ignorance. I have always been appalled at how ignorant my friends were, even as late as high school. That ignorance really is a terrible thing. That's why I'm always in favor of education. One friend thought she couldn't get pregnant unless both partners had simultaneous orgasms. Another was late starting her periods at age 11 and was terrified that she was already pregnant from having been sexually abused at age five. (She didn't realize that sperm don't live that long.)

I was curious about certain things when I was about 4 and I do feel cheated that I was lied to when I asked questions. I asked how it could happen that a baby looked like its father. I knew that the baby grew inside the mom so it made sense that it would look like her but how would her body know what the man she had married looked like? How could the baby grow inside her and take on the looks of the father? And how was it that a woman's body knew when she got married, so as to start having babies, anyway? Another thing I asked came up in a book we had called "The Chinese Children Next Door". That family had a lot of girls and wanted a boy. The book said they decided to try one more time. I asked how do you try or not try to have babies. I thought it just started happening when you were married outside of your control. In what way could you affect the chances of having a baby or not? Every one of these questions was important to my understanding of the world, and I got lied to. I still am sort of bummed about that. I was told that God handled all of that. Why couldn't they have told me the truth? That really bothers me. I will never lie to a kid when they ask questions, I know that for sure.

I believe the more education, the better. It should come from home and school both. Lots of gory details. Abstinence and also safe sex, and even the kama sutra, if they will add that to the curriculum. I very much agree that kids should be taught that pressuring someone for sex is always wrong. That they should never pressure anyone else or allow themselves to be pressured either one. The parents can teach the moral aspects. The parents will have the most effect of anyone, in terms of teaching what is the right way to act.

I totally agree with Geoff that kids who grow up in a community in which abstinence outside of marriage is the only acceptable choice are quite lucky. I don't believe in ostracizing those who slip up, or stoning them or shipping them off to labor camps or anything. I think mistakes take their own toll, and the people who make them need more support and love, not less. After all, all of our ancestors for 3 billion years have been the ones who did get pregnant. Nature is very good at tricking people into doing what they were sure they would never choose to do. But the rules are there to minimize the potential for pain and damage and blighted lives. So teaching kids the rules and expecting them to follow the rules is a very good thing.

[ March 12, 2004, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: aka ]
 

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Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
 
It's hard to know exactly how to teach a kid sometimes, though. My parents were just about the most open and informative teachers you could imagine, but we still ran into an order-of-information issue. My dad told me at age five that the man carries half the baby, and the woman carries the other half, and then they are put together in the woman's body. But since I had no concept of humans springing from single-celled organisms, I imagined a full-grown baby bisected along its vertical axis, getting stitched together inside my mother. And I was really confused, since carrying even half a baby should have made my dad look pregnant.

[bashful laugh] Wasn't I cute? Anyway, I don't think there's a perfect way to teach your kids about sex. Tell them too much too early, and you might freak them out or give them weird impressions that you couldn't have predicted. Wait too long or say too little, and you risk all the dangers of ignorance. All parents can do, really, is their best.

By the way, aka, I think it's hard to write fiction that is explicit about sex without being pornographic, because it seems like your choices are (1) include all of the passionate emotion and lust, which excites the reader and makes it borderline porn, or (2) leave it out, which makes it seem like a biology textbook. People do tend to have a sense of decorum about the subject of sex, which forces them to either distance themselves from the details, or feel really dangerous and excited while reading them.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
*giggles*
That's kind of funny...
In jr high I kept being surrounded by girls who'd read romance novels at me every five seconds...
I hated those..
 

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Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
 
Maybe you would call it porn. I dunno. If the intent was total realism and not titillation, it seems to me that it wouldn't be pornographic (even though a certain amount of response would naturally happen). I've not seen but just a smattering of porn in my life, but my primary impression of it is that it is really stupid, not realistic at all, and just very very stupid. Maybe it's just because I'm such a geek and learned more about life from reading good books than any other source. But it seems to me that it's a huge, incredibly important part of life, that we all have zero guidance on. The only models there are to learn from are terrible as models because they are so stupid and untrue.

I think from talking to my close girlfriends, too, that the number of married couples who don't have very good sex lives is rather high. That seems like a terrible shame to me. It seems like people as a whole could benefit from knowing a lot more.

[ March 12, 2004, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: aka ]
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
Or at least knowing more than slot a goes into hole b...
It's sad when these teenagers think they know soo much about sex..
 

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Posted by cochick (Member # 6167) on :
 
I don't have children but discussed with my best friend how she handled the situation when her son starting asking about sex.

I agree with her answer - If a child is old enough to ask a question they're old enough for the answer, however, that doesn't mean going into masses of detail. If the answers are kept straightforward and simple, then if they want to know more they'll ask more questions.

This of course depends on having the sort of parent/ child relationship where they feel comfortable asking you questions because its something you've always encouraged them to do.

I'm wary of teaching young children too much too soon. As someone else pointed out everyone's different and are ready to approach different subjects at different ages. Let them have their innocence while they can - they grow up way to fast these days anyway.
 

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Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
 
I guess what I mean is that I read good novels all my life from around fifth or sixth grade. So when I think of things like jealousy, or wild passion, infatuation, or selfless love, when I encounter those feelings in myself, I have lots of models for them. I remember how Rogozhan acted in The Idiot, and how Prince Myshkin was, and how Vanya treated his fiancee when she rejected him in favor of someone else in The Insulted and the Humiliated. I have all these internal models of these things in great books, as well as the ones I've seen in my life, and I sort of know where I am. I know who I want to be.

But for sexual feelings or situations we have no models. Or not true ones, anyway. I just wish sex were a topic which also was encountered in great books. I dunno. I guess I still have hopes that such knowledge would be useful to me someday.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Wow, cochick, that was a brilliant answer. aka, I remember feeling very much as you expressed about being open with my kids. I still feel that way. But as I have had them and "things" have come up (they are still very young so not much has come up) I often find myself hesitating.

I think there is a point of too much information as well a danger of not enough. I guess my hope is that I can be the first one to answer my child's questions rather than an ill-informed peer. I know I got a lot of confusing info, and when my parents were ready to talk to me, I certainly didn't want to talk to them! My mother, though, was able to impart to me some important wisdom. It wasn't until college in a family science class that I learned some very important things about how sex worked. (Phases, how arousal works differently in each gender, etc.) It was good timing for me, but that was an individual case.

There are some excellent books out there, for those interested in waiting until marriage, that are great to read together right before or right after being married. A good one that comes to mind is "The Act of Marriage." It offers wonderful education along with a spiritual (well, Christian) outlook on the importance and sacredness of sex. When you are a virgin approaching your wedding night, the book can be very titillating! But that's okay when you are about to be doing what you are reading about. It really helps you go into things with less ignorance and a good attitude.

I really do appreciate how open my mother was with communication. She taught me some very valuable things. I want to have a very open communication with my children on such things. But I have found it challenging so far.
 

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Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
 
aka, do you think that married people with disappointing sex lives are in that situation because they are ignorant about interesting sexual skills? Or because there is some other lack in their relationship?
 

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Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
 
So is sex supposed to be something that people understand naturally how to be good at? That as long as your relationship is good, so will your sex life be? Even without information?

Yes, I think ignorance is a big problem. And everyone's ego is so very invested in this subject that it can be very tricky to be completely open and relaxed when discussing it with your spouse. Well meaning people seem to get stuck in patterns that aren't very happy or successful, due mainly to ignorance, and it can become safer and easier just to accept the way things are than to take the risks involved to try and make them better.

In other words, since a person knows they are a caring, sensitive spouse, then obviously whatever they are doing is the right thing, and trying to gain understanding or acceptance for a different view may risk devastating someone you love. That may be an unacceptable risk.

On the other hand, if a lot of information comes in by outside channels that aren't personally directed at the individual, they are able to learn a lot more without any risk to their own feelings, or fears of inadequacy.

Girls tend to talk about these things, and I don't think so many of my close friends have marriages that are out of the ordinary. This seems to be an unfortunately widespread problem. I think people need more sources of information about sex (the feelings of it, and the spiritual personal meaning of it, I mean... the music of it, not just the mechanics) than only their spouse and their own internal reactions.

To me the natural place to learn important things about life, about how to be alive, is in great literature.

So my answer to the topic question, do teens need sex education? Yes, very much so, as do adults.

[ March 13, 2004, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: aka ]
 

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Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
 
aka, as you've seen in this thread, I'm very much in favor of sex ed. I'm not saying that people should remain ignorant, by any means. But I do think that a disappointing married sex life is more often a product of a lack of communication or unselfish compassion, rather than a lack of knowledge.
 

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Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
 
Oh, Tom, sorry it took me so long to get back to you:

quote:

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While I agree with Geoff that shame is a powerful corrective, the problem we have in this society is that shame is too often harnessed as a whip by people who seek to wield society's power. (We even see it today; in a society in which being a bigot is shameful, calling someone a bigot is a powerful thing.) This leads to situations like the Magdalene laundries, back-alley abortions, and one-year "boarding schools" for girls with wealthy parents.

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There are bad consequences, I think, on both extremes of any choice. If we err too much on the side of shamelessness, then society loses its corrective power. If we err too much on the side of correction, it leads to suffering for those who make mistakes.

One of the foundations of Christianity (and no, I'm not expecting anyone to accept Christianity, it's just an example) is the idea that people should be able to simultaneously critically examine their own failings, and avoid judging other people for theirs. We are expected to accept the fundamental truth that everybody screws up, so that we can recognize our own problems while showing compassion and understanding for others'.

Walking this balancing act, I believe, is a key to building a strong society where everyone can feel accepted. It is possible to promote an ideal while also accepting and supporting those who, for whatever reason, fall short of or violate that ideal.

Extremists disagree with this position, of course. There are those who see judging others and inflicting shame as the greater evil, and others who see violating society's standards as the greater evil. What we need to do is realize that the two are just about equal. They are actually quite natural, and are not always caused by some insidious evil motive on either side.

Problems will arise if we allow one of these "evils" to completely trump the other. Right now, we're leaning very heavily towards naming judgment as the greater evil. We've made a lot of progress on that score, but if we don't start hedging up the other side soon, we'll be in for a world of hurt.
 

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Posted by want2write (Member # 6253) on :
 
For those who felt that sex education isn't needed for minors under 18, I know how you feel for yourselves and are afraid of what it might affect them. Yes, we live in societies that either most accept or unaccept. But please, accept the changes throughout the generations. If not, I think either you'll not take the responsibilities of your faults that kids & teens didn't learn anything from the sex ed., esp. not signing the permission slip (in other words, you'd blame yourself or I'll blame you), or... maybe you should watch King of the Hill's 1st season.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

 

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Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
 
Uhh... I am not about to reread every post, but has anyone actually said that on this thread?
 

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Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
 
A Rat Named Dog, I agree. The problem with divorcing sexual mores from their parent philosophy or religion is that an imbalance develops.

I think too many people have taken Judeo-Christian shame out of its true doctrinal context, and have divorced it from charity and compassion. I know that when I was a pregnant, unwed teenager, the people most willing to judge me and walk away would probably be the least likely to actually be my friend.

(Also, once a girl is pregnant enough to show, it's been probably half a year since they concieved. I know that by the time people could tell, just by looking at me, that I was pregnant, I was a different person. I certianly didn't need them to tell ME that it was the wrong thing to do. I was living with my consequences, every day.)

My view is, don't name a mess you're not willing to help clean up.

I'm split on how to teach sex ed to kids. It seems, based on other posts here, and on my knowledge of what teenagers are like, that the "selfish" approach works best. Not that teenagers are all self-centered in a bad way; it's simply that season of their life in which they need to focus on growing and developing correctly.

That method includes the scary pictures of the physical ravages of STDs, a description of what it feels like to be used by someone else or sex and then thrown away, dolls that cry unpredictably and unceasingly, etc.

Now that I'm married and a mom I wonder why I shouldn't try to expect the best out of my teenagers, and explain how premarital sex can hurt not only them, but also any illegitimate children or future relationships they might have, and other effects on their future happiness.

Incidentally, synethesia, I don't believe sex is wrong or dirty or shameful, if it's experienced within certian societal confines (i.e., marriage). In fact, it's the love and appreciation for the sanctity of the mortal body that leads me to feel as I do about sex ed.
 

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Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
 
I think the idea of writing realistically about sex is a very good idea. Include the sensuality AND the consequences - it's truth. What if you read something and it excited you, but on the next page you were still with the character feeling ashamed and used? Or found that a brief moment of pleasure led to profound struggles? Then, when you found yourself swept away by passion, you might remember that story and know a little better when to say no.
 

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Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
 
JG, exactly! The problem with all the writing I've seen that's very frank about sex, is that it's completly unrealistic (in addition to being stupid and poorly written). The reason so many religions teach celibacy outside marriage is because it's truly the best option. It saves a world of heartache and suffering for those involved, as well as those conceived in bad circumstances, without two parents who love each other and love them and are able to provide for them. But how can kids really believe and understand that without access to true stories of real life sex and its consequences?
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
aka, I sure wish more movies showed those consequences. Movies have a powerful effect on youth, or at least they did on me.

I want to express my gratitude to OSC for including characters in his stories that choose not to have extra-marital sex, even when tempted. Some may say it is silly and unrealistic, that few people actually act that way, but there are people who act that way and few stories out there that depict them. I like characters that make good roll models, people we can look up to. I would like to see more chaste heroes and more heroes who suffer the natural consequences of promiscuity.
 

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Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
 
Interesting article...

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1212734,00.html/

quote:

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Oral sex lessons to cut rates of teenage pregnancy

Mark Townsend
Sunday May 9, 2004
The Observer

Encouraging schoolchildren to experiment with oral sex could prove the most effective way of curbing teenage pregnancy rates, a government study has found.

Pupils under 16 who were taught to consider other forms of 'intimacy' such as oral sex were significantly less likely to engage in full intercourse, it was revealed.

Britain's teenage pregnancy rate is the highest in Europe. In 2002 there were 39,286 teen pregnancies recorded. The government has spent more than £60 million to tackle the problem but so far failed to halt the rise.

A sex education course developed by Exeter University trains teachers to talk to teenagers about 'stopping points' before full sex.

Now an unpublished government-backed report reveals that a trial of the course has been a success. Schoolchildren, particularly girls, who received such training developed a 'more mature' response to sex.

The study by the National Foundation for Educational Research found youngsters were 'less likely to be sexually active' than peers who received traditional forms of sex education, dispelling the fears of family campaigners who believe such methods actually arouse the sexual interest of teenagers.

Now the government will recommend the scheme, called A Pause, to schools throughout England and Wales following the success of the trial in 104 schools where sexual intercourse among 16-year-olds fell by up to 20 per cent, according to Dr John Tripp of the Department of Child Health at the University of Exeter, who helped to design the course.

Teachers who sign up to the course are primed to deal with queries from pupils on all kinds of sexual experience. Those behind the course stress the scheme does not suggest teenagers experiment with oral sex. Instead they say A Pause promotes the message that other forms of physical intimacy are safer than full intercourse.

'It teaches people assertiveness skills and that they should be only as intimate as they feel comfortable with,' said Tripp.

A Department for Education and Skills spokesman said the report's verdict would be made available to all schools. 'All teachers respect peer-reviewed material, and this will help influence their decision,' he said.

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Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
 
I had sex ed in sixth grade, and I knew more about female anatomy than most girls that went other schools.

I'm not mentally harmed from it.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Encouraging homosexual experimentation goes along the same line of thinking. Two women can't make each other pregnant, neither can two men.
 

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