Good grief. That is, if memory serves, about as many people as we lost in Oklahoma City. What the hell is peoples' problems? What kind of evil twists a persons soul to the point that they think that their problems with their government are worth 170 innocent lives? I hope these bastards fry. I don't know what Spain's stance on capital punishment is, but if your legal system is too lenient, feel free to send them here. We've got a few spare electric chairs in Texas that ought to do the job.
This really upsets me. I don't know what else to say. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah, I've been feeling stunned by this ever since the news story woke me up this morning. I don't completely understand how humans can treat each other this way. I really don't.
Posted by Ghost of Xavier (Member # 2852) on :
Yeah, I saw that too Speed. Didn't know what to say about it though .
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Signs of the Times, my friend.
That is really terrible. What's next? Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You know, I've been aware of Basque seperatist violence for a long time, but I haven't kept close enough tabs on it to have a whole lot of perspective on the seriousness of this attack in comparison to previous attacks. Anybody know?
In any case, it occurrs to me that, given that Spain was one of the US's principle European allies in the Iraq war, the likelyhood is greatly increased that the Basques seperatists are likely to get help from Islamic terrorist groups that don't care at all about the Basque cause, but are interested in hitting back at anyone who allies themselves with the US in the "war on terror".
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
I've been wondering that, too, Noe.
The Basque Separatists have done some bombings in the past, but never anything on this scale before. Perhaps they've begun to think bigger in light of the Post-9/11 world. Or maybe they have had a bit of help.
Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
According to several articles I've read, it's the worst attack in Spain's history. I can't say that I follow the news on the ETA particularly closely, but when I lived in Spain, most of their activity was much smaller in scale - like assasinating a key politician. Nothing of this magnitude.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:What kind of evil twists a persons soul to the point that they think that their problems with their government are worth 170 innocent lives?
I'm not sure it's as unfathomable an evil in their souls as you are implying. Just imagine all the various ways that we Americans have justified the killing of hundreds or thousands of civilians in the past, but replace "stopping states from leaving the union" or "ending a world war more quickly" or "preventing the spread of communist ideology" or "freeing the Iraqi people from a leader we don't like" with "defending the sovereignty of the Basque region."
[ March 11, 2004, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
There is a significant difference between all those you mentioned, Tres, and "defending the sovereignty of the Basque region".
In every other action, those killed were military and were armed with weapons. Many of our own soldiers died.
In this action, civilians who had no way to protect themselves and no way to know that they would be victims this morning were specifically targeted, and there were no lives lost on the side of the ETA.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
Saudade is from Spain, isn't she? Does anyone know if she has family that has been affected? Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
Oh, come on. I deliberately worded that sentence in that way to prevent this type of thing. I was disappointed when George Bush reminded us of 9/11 in an attempt to scare us into voting for him, and I'll be just as disappointed if people on the other side exploit this tragedy to scare us into voting against him. I mean seriously, how many trains full of innocent civilians did we really bomb in Iraq? I can't believe you're comparing open war to covert terrorist attacks that deliberately target a civilian population.
As for the idea that Moslem extremists are behind this... I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd rather save that kind of speculation for a time when we have something to back it up. It's very comforting to believe that our enlightened western civilization could never produce such monsters. But McVeigh didn't have any Mideast masterminds behind his plans, and that little redneck did just fine.
[edit: I started this thread in hopes of comforting any forum members that might live in that area. I'm not opposed to having a discussion of American politics, but I'd rather we didn't have it here, if that's okay.]
[ March 11, 2004, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Speed ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:In every other action, those killed were military and were armed with weapons. Many of our own soldiers died.
That's not true. We didn't just drop the A-Bomb on military combatants.
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
Please, thats pathetic. And a horrible analogy.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Except possibly very recently, the trend of warfare has been an extreme steady rise in the number of civilians killed compared to the number of soldiers.
While they have assassinated government and military officials, it's unlike the Basque separatists to have committed a bombing without first issuing a warning to allow evacuation of civilians. Or without immediately claiming responsibility. They've never done it before.
I'd guess AlQaeda/etc hitting Spain for its involvement in Iraq, or maybe for its war-on-terror crackdown on "Muslim"extremist groups.
[ March 11, 2004, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
Yes, there were a lot of civilians. But in this case, I will go with the idea that this actually did decrease the number of lives lost. What was horrifying was that it was ONE bomb, not how many people it killed. More were killed in the Tokyo firebombing than in Nagasaki.
War is immoral, there is no way around that.
But murder is worse.
I notice that the actions against germany are not included in your little 'what is immoral' diatribe. Is that because of the Holocaust? Do you think the Japanese were any kinder or gentler than the Germans? Do a little research.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:There is a significant difference between all those you mentioned, Tres, and "defending the sovereignty of the Basque region".
So is the evil "twisting their souls" the fact that they care too much about issues we think aren't important?
quote:I started this thread in hopes of comforting any forum members that might live in that area.
If you want a thread just for comforting and not with contraversy, don't try to comfort one group of people by calling another group of people evil and declaring they should be killed.
[ March 11, 2004, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
Are there any members of ETA on this thread? Anyone who has ever killed an innocent civilian in a terrorist act? If so, feel free to speak up and defend yourself.
As for you, Xaposert, if you have any ideas on how I can offer comfort to a group of victims by sympathizing with the people that murdered their fellow countrymen, speak up. I'd love to be enlightened. Meanwhile, I stand by my statement. The people that bombed that train station are evil bastards and the world wouldn't suffer any harm if we ridded ourselves of them. If you want to tell me that I'm just as bad because I'm an American and George Bush invaded Iraq, go ahead, but forgive me if I fail to see the relevance.
By the way, the "evil twisting their souls" has nothing to do with how much they care about an issue. As far as I'm concerned, they're free to care all they want. But caring about an issue and murdering 170 human beings are completely different actions that should be met with completely different consequences.
[ March 11, 2004, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Speed ]
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:As for you, Xaposert, if you have any ideas on how I can offer comfort to a group of victims by sympathizing with the people that murdered their fellow countrymen, speak up.
I'd say you just do it. See Jesus or Ghandi for examples...
quote:But caring about an issue and murdering 170 human beings are completely different actions.
So, the importance of the issue motivating the 'murder' doesn't matter? Then you'd agree that the importance of ending World War II doesn't excuse America from dropping a nuke on hundreds of innocent civilians, and that the Americans who supported such murdering had evil in their hearts?
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
It has nothing to do with the importance of the issue.
It has to do with the methods.
[ March 11, 2004, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Amka ]
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
So, again, you'd agree that it was evil of Americans to nuke a whole city full of civilians, including many women and children? (After all, the issue [number of lives saved ending the war] is irrelevant you say - only the method is relevant. )
[ March 11, 2004, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
Oh, come on. When I say I'm disappointed with something, is it really necessary to justify that position in relation to everything else that has ever happened? These are different actions performed by different people at different times, and I don't see what my position on every other person-vs-person conflict in the history of humanity has to do with it.
I would like to ask you a question, though. Do you personally believe that ETA was justified in this? Do you find this to have been a good and just action, and that they should be let go based upon the strength of their convictions? Or are you just unable to see any story about any event without using it to justify a choice you've already made about who should win the next presidential election?
Seriously, George W. Bush doesn't have to be the villain in every unfortunate story you read. Let it go for five minutes. You'll feel better.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
Actually, my point has very little to do with Bush or any election.
My point is that people can do evil/unjustified things without being evil themselves and deserving to die. America has done it on multiple occassions.
[ March 11, 2004, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
There actually is a difference in the methods. We were at war with the Japanese. The Japanese attacked us first and killed a lot of people. The Japanese themselves were guilty of torture and atrocity, just like the Germans were. The Japanese were not about to surrender, and there really is something to be said for the fact that fewer Japanese died as a result of the bombs.
The Spaniards killed did not attack the Basque, did not throw them into consecration camps or similar prisoner camps. Nor did the rest of the Spanish population or the government that represents it do that.
[ March 11, 2004, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Amka ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
edit: bleh, I meant my two sisters, not my mother and sister, are in spain right now. (they're fine).
[ March 11, 2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:As for the idea that Moslem extremists are behind this... I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd rather save that kind of speculation for a time when we have something to back it up. It's very comforting to believe that our enlightened western civilization could never produce such monsters. But McVeigh didn't have any Mideast masterminds behind his plans, and that little redneck did just fine.
Speed--I had thought. I shared it. I don't see anything wrong with that, and I don't feel the need to wait until I have difinitive proof of this idea to share it. I wasn't trying to say that that was necessarily the case; I was just speculating. Why is that a problem? Who said that Western civilization couldn't come up with terrorists of its own? I certainly didn't make that assertion, and don't think for a second that it is the case. This kind of act is, unfortunately, something that humans all around the world can come up with. My speculation simply stemmed from the fact that it seemed to me that this attack differed from the other acts of the ETA that I was aware of.
Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
Wow, What interesting posts.
I am sorry Speed that there is a failure to focuse on comfort in this post. I understand your pain, and to turn this into a political rant saddens me.
In my opinion, posts should be relevent to the creators intentions. Of course after so many posts, the tangents are fun and interesting, but here we have a serious disaster and a call on compassion to the victims, and already we are tackling the A-bomb.
My condolences.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Whether the Japanese were about to surrender is more than a little up in the air. Considering they tried to surrender once already with the same effective terms we ended up granting them (the Empereror is not deposed) I don't feel its accurate to say they would not have surrendered if given those terms.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
Noemon:
I didn't mean my comment as an attack on your idea. It is an interesting idea, and maybe it'll prove to be true. I was just saying that I hope people don't start assuming that it's a given that any time we see terrorism it has roots in the mideast. I meant my comment to balance your idea, not to disparage it. Sorry if I offended.
Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
I try to think about what attitude I can have, or action I can take, will actually help the problem. It's hard to find the right attitude or action in a situation like this.
This is the new world, in fact. The world in which smaller and smaller groups of people have it in their power to produce more and more damage until finally it becomes possible for any one person to destroy the entire earth. Can we surive that as a species? If so, how?
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. If we decide to become so draconian in our response to terrorism that terrorism becomes impossible, then we just put the worst power of terror into the hands of the authorities. We know that power will be abused, because it's always abused. Our whole system depends on limiting the power of the government to terrorize the people. It's no good to let ourselves turn into fascists in response to terrorism because it's really a worse outcome than we started with.
How do we respond to acts like this with an appropriate response? With justice? How do we prevent them? So far no good solutions seem forthcoming.
Maybe we need both carrot and stick, somehow. We need to fix situations that are intolerable, situations which drive people to desperation and make them crazy, but also we need to be more aware and proactive, (everyone, not just law enforcement), to protect ourselves against people who would do things like this. Governments need to respond to people's frustrations and anger. They need to not be deaf to less extreme forms of protest. But also we peaceful law abiding people need to make it clear that we do not tolerate blind hatred and destructive violence as a response to things that are wrong. Somehow we have to become a more peaceful people, even as we become more wary and defensive against these sorts of attacks.
What's scary is there will always be mistakes in both directions. We will jail innocent people, for instance, or persecute anyone who is different, out of fear. We also will miss some of the ones who do these things, so that it will happen again and again.
[ March 11, 2004, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: aka ]
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
Xaposert:
I've got an equally irrelevant question for you, as long as we're talking about WWII. You said that we should be more like Gandhi. Do you think that nonviolent resistance would have been an effective strategy against the Axis powers?
Not, of course, that this has anything to do with what happened in Spain this morning. But as long as we're talking about different things that different people did at different points in history and trying to make their actions and motivations universally applicable, I thought you might want to tackle that one.
[ March 11, 2004, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Speed ]
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Amka, it isn't exactly cut-and-dried on the Basque Separatist issue. Spain refuse to acknowledge it's sovereignty, to the point of making the political wing of the ETA [EDIT: illegal] not so long ago.
That said, it may have been decided that the politcal was nothing more than a shield for the paramilitary wing. I don't know the issues well enough.
But if this is the ETA, this is a major departure from previous tactics. They ALWAYS forewarn bombs in places where civilians could be killed (with one or two exceptions, none of which were to this scale). If I had to guess, I'd say it was a more militant splinter group of the ETA who did this largely on their own.
This is pretty horrible. Here's hoping that this is an aberration never repeated. I also hope the the perpetrators are brought to justice.
-Bok
[ March 11, 2004, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Bokonon ]
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:You said that we should be more like Gandhi. Do you think that nonviolent resistance would have been an effective strategy against the Axis powers?
Yes, but it may have taken much longer than all-out war did.
Why?
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
Yeah, if we could only have held on until Hitler accomplished his goal of eliminating the world's Jewish population, I'm sure he would have been willing to listen to reason.
It is an interesting theory.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Speed, I did feel a little offended at your comment, because it seemed like you were responding to me as though I'd said exactly the kind of thing that grates on me when I read other people saying it. I appreciate your clarifying what you were saying. Honestly, I expect that I was just misreading you. I've got a bit of a headache, my office is boiling (it feels like it's in the 90s in here, and I'm dressed for winter), and I think I'm just a little bit cranky as a result.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
I'd guess that the current SpanishAdministration is using "ETA did it" to cover its political backside from a major beating.
Spanish citizens strongly disapproved* their government's decision to back the Iraq invasion, and to provide occupation troops afterwards. And if this turns out to be a "Muslim"extremist payback for Iraq...
* I think by more than 5to1 and less than 10to1.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You think so Tres? What would have stopped Hitler from just rounding up all of the peaceful protesters and gassing them?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Even Jesus recognized that at times actions are necessary, Tres. He didn't organize a sit-in at the temple to get rid of the money changers, he chased them out with a whip.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
*thinks this thread title should have been saved for Indian topics*
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
Well, it's more about convincing the German people who supported him, and other nations around the world. And I think it would have been possible in that case before all was lost - although many disagree with me.
The reason groups like the ETA exist is because they feel violence is necessary to achieve the goals they consider important. They feel they cannot achieve any results through nonviolent resistence, so they instead resort to terrorism. I think they are wrong, but many can point to things like World War II and claim the ends justify the means.
Now, one question we could ask is, would it have been wrong for the Jews in Germany to resort to terrorism of innocent civilians in order to resist the Nazis? Or should they have been nonviolent in their resistence?
[ March 11, 2004, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
You know, honestly, can we start a different thread about this? I was hoping to use this thread for expressing sympathy and talking about what happened. I'd be glad to discuss these Nazi side-topics somewhere else.
[edit: Alexa just started up a likely thread. Can we move it there?]
[ March 11, 2004, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Speed ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I was reading only yesterday on how terrorism was becoming less selective, but this seems irrelevant to any cause. Why trains? What is with public transport as a form of war?
There is no political message here, there is no selectivity; it is merely annihilation that the bombers were going for. No message, no one has claimed responsibility or given a reason. It is senseless violence at its most senseless.
I think that is where it deviates from the A-Bomb. It was terrible, it was murder, it was violent, but it wasn't apparantly random. It was done with a message and the U.S. said they had done it.
Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
Speed
I started a different thread about this..Check it out..I hope this community can have meaningful dialog on the new post.
I feel the frustration that this strayed from the sympathy you were the first to express.
*bows head in a minute of silence*
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I don't know Speed. I appreciate the reason why you started the thread, and completely support it--my heart goes out to those impacted by this tragedy; it was an awful thing.
You can't really control the direction a thread takes once you create it though. You *might* be able to kill the conversation (transplanting conversations to new threads rarely works), but it's unlikely that the thread will rerail itself. You could always delete the thread, but that usually annoys the people who said something they considered worth saying on the now-deleted thread. You could change the name of the thread, and start a new thread for mourning the deaths in Spain. Not a completely satisfying solution for you, but probably the one that would work best, I think, for accomplishing your goal.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I just reread the thread, and it looks like it was me who performed the initial derailment. Sorry about that.
Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
Yes, maybe before we even start to think or talk about why things like this happen, or what we should do about them, what are the appropriate responses, we should just take a few days to mourn first and comfort the survivors.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
I don't mind most of what's gone on here, as far as what happened, who did it, why they did it, and feeling bad for the Spanish people. But all the stuff comparing it to WWII seems irrelevant to the topic I was attempting. Not that it isn't worth discussing, but I hope that now that we have another thread for it, we can move it there. I don't know if it will work, but the other thread is just as good as this one, so here's to hoping.
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
I am of Basque descent . . . not that it's relevant. I'm certain I have distant relatives in Spain, but I don't know any of them. Still, this makes me sad.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
So it's not the ETA (who denied it from the beginning).
Also, it turns out there were 10 bombs - all planted separatly and set to (more or less) simultaneously explode. Shows an awful lot of planning. Very scary.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
Wow. Looks like there's still some conflicting evidence, but if it was Al-Queda, that would be scary. I'll be interested to know how the investigation comes out. It does seem odd to me that Al-Queda would retaliate against Spain for their involvement in the war against Iraq. That didn't do anything to Al-Queda but divert attention from them. Puzzling.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
The emails included refrences to the crusades, counting the Spanish as invaders of the Holy Land. And their support of the War on Terror.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
It's 199 dead now...
I think this hits me harder than most americans because I've actually been to the places that got hit.
If you want to read what the local press is saying, check out http://abc.es/ (in spanish)
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